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Facing down anti-Americanism There is a fine article in the Telegraph rebutting anti-Americanism and another which features a splendid quote from an unnamed US embassy spokesman who responded to claims that a poll has found many British people are opposed to the US decision to overthrow Saddam Hussain and suggesting many had a low opinion of US civil society:
“We question the judgment of anyone who asserts the world would be a better place with Saddam still terrorizing his own nation and threatening people well beyond Iraq’s borders. With respect to the poll’s assertions about American society, we bear some of the blame for not successfully communicating America’s extraordinary dynamism. But frankly, so do you [the British press].”
Quite. Never apologise to your enemies.
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There’s something ironic about the people of a nation best known these days for public alcoholism and the loutish behavior of its drink-sodden soccer fans, denouncing those of another for being vulgar. The bit about the US being divided by class is too ridiculous to even inspire honest contempt, given the source of the accusation…
Which is not to say that the vast majority of Americans are not uncultured, vulgar, and know or care nothing about foreigners. It’s just that the vast majority of Britons, and French, and Germans, and Italians, and pretty much all of humanity are uncultured, vulgar, and inclined at best to not care much about people outside their own tribal group. And looking down on foreigners is one way of feeling better about one’s own situation, while reinforcing group solidarity. In this case, the broad European consensus that hates capitalism and loathes its own existence, a loathing projected on to those most like it; namely the US and, of course, Israel. Britain may not be France, but even the French are conflicted over the idea of giving up their own national identity. But elite pressure and media slant can propogate those parts of its message most congenial to the masses, it certainly seems.
Indeed. For the first time in a long time (ever, maybe???) I felt the urge to contribute to their have your say section on the subject.
What puzzles me is how the same ideological ilk who decried living in the Shadow of the Bomb in the Sixties apparently want to live in the Shadow of the Bomb once again, as thats what a multipolar world in the nuclear age really means.
The headline in our local paper had the “Americans are obessed with money” as it’s lead-in for that poll today. A frequent phrase I keep reading lately. Depending on the context, it could be interpreted a number of ways. But I’m beginning to think it’s because the European consumer insists on paying retail or higher. I could understand businesses keeping up the pressure not to undercut the MSRP. But the consumer? God forbid Hyancith Bucket ever be caught paying wholesale?
Franchement la, as we are wont to say in my native Quebec, it’s time the orgy of official apologizing came to an end and never apologize, never explain, reinstated as policy.
Our usually clear-headed PM, Stephen Harper, recently apologized to the Chinese community in Canada for the exclusionary laws against Chinese immigration way back when! That was then, this is now and no one living today was involved. How pathetic. And then there are the Crusades apologists.
Apologies on an abstract level are useless – apologizing for stepping on someone’s foot in a queue is real and relevant.
As for the average Brit’s conception of Americans as a vulgar, brutal lot, that’s never going to change, nor is the average Brit’s condescending attitude to ‘colonials’ like me and who cares. It gives Brits some sort of superior feeling and gives the ‘colonials’ a laugh that such stone age trogs feel superior to us.
I’m a Brit. Anti-Americanism gets me down. Usually smart, bright, lucid people lose those attributes when the subject of the USA comes up. They revert to primitive tribal instincts and, at the worst, pull out the old and blunt saw that “Bush is as bad as bin Laden” etc ad-fucking-nauseum. The Brits I know who do this all share one characteristic – they have never actually been to America. When I challenge them on this, the response is always along the line of “Why would I want to go to such a fascist/violent/aggressive/polluting country?”
I even had one twat tell me America had no musical tradition (it was all apparently borrowed from Europe and Africa). Well I have to agree if you discount Jazz, Blues, Country, Rock and Roll… Yup, all have influences from outside the US but as any competent cook knows having good ingredients is only the start – it’s what you do with them that counts.
They don’t get it. They don’t even see the self-defeating nature of their own logic. They look on in disbelief when I say that I found the streets of New York safer than those of London and that “xenophobic” Americans were very friendly and interested in talking to a foreigner.
I fell in love with America 10 years ago. They clearly haven’t been to New York’s Met (of course not – there is no “culture” in the USA), the swamps of Louisiana*, the mighty Tennesee river or walked a trail in Appalachia.
I pity the fool…
*I hired a canoe to go round the swamps just outside of New Orleans. I hired it from a good ole boy who ran “Earl’s Bar & Canoe Hire”. It was December and the weather was gorgeous. I asked if the ‘gators hibernated. All Earl said was, “Well we ain’t lost one yet”.
It’s the same the world over. How much limey bashing do we do in the US? I’m sure we also weren’t too friendly when the British Empire was out and about, securing the sea lanes for us on the cheap.
You bash us, we bash you, and somehow the world keeps rotating on it’s axis. I’m not too concerned about it.
I think the problem is that the US state tells its citizens it wants one thing around the world – freedom and democracy. Then sponsers anti democratic coups ie Iran in the 50s and Chile in the 70s. No one likes a hypocrite!
Right, Alex. Because no other nation has ever talked out of both sides of it’s mouth in the interests of statecraft…
Hell, if you want to talk about American crimes you can do better than the piddly CIA interventions of the recent past. How about the decimation of the Indians? The theft of land from Mexico? We’ve done a lot that we shouldn’t be proud of, and so have you.
Considering that the British brought the world the charms of the concentration camp system, the Amritsar Massacre, and the subjugation of about 1/4 of the world’s population at one point perhaps it’d be better if we all held our tongues, m’kay?
I have to agree with Millie (although I have less than no time for the Quebecois) in that The Septic Isle is now (hopefully temporarily) the pits. Clear geopolitical heads are few & far between. The blinkers of envy, the inability to recognize friends who will surely (again) be needed some day, the tacit acceptance of the horrors of Communism. The now inbred mindset of entitlement without responsibilities. The soupçon of remaining ‘pride’ is reserved for obviously ‘disadvantaged’ footballers. Our present leaders are Quislings (and we criticize the French who walk rings round us) as cheese-eating surrender-monkeys. Huh! They have allowed an unassimilated & hostile entity to enter the country and have absolutely no idea who or where they are. The Home Office is a tragedy. The police are a trigger-happy & badly informed (Thank you MI5 & MI6) bunch of overkill (literally) dickheads. The judiciary is ‘wet’ & a hopeless Parliament thinks that reams of new restrictions & legislation including the banning of fox-hunting….now that is really important….. and guns…& knives will solve every problem. Legislation on these last two will certainly impress the large criminal community, you may be sure.
The absolute crap of Devolvement has freed the Scots (I am half Scottish) from the English yoke but left them with the curious advantage of legislating in England while, like the Palestinians, able only to survive on largesse from, in their case, the now hated Sassenachs. It looks possible that the next English Prime Minister will be an unpleasant Scotsman. You may well ask why. I have no idea whatsoever.
Lest readers here conclude that I do not love my country let me hasten to correct you. Like the sadly absent Verity, the land of my fathers and all it used to stand for is a sacred talisman. Unfortunately, the barbarians aren’t at the gates….they’re in full control.
………..and while I’m ranting, I would like you all to be aware that more & more independent experts on Afghanistan are pointing out that our forces there are in grave danger. Not so much from their enemies in the field but rather from those at home who have sent them, ill-equipped, into a country whose history they have obviouly never read. Shame. Bloody, bloody shame on our incompetent, ignorant masters.
Oh yes….Anti-Americanism. Stupid.
I must say that I tire of people bringing up Iran & Chile. Iran never had a popularly democratic government, people complain about the US bringing back the Shah, but we all know that the Iranian “democracy” was nothing more than a coup by the KGB and as for the situation in Chile, when a population is deceived into electing a war-party, you’re going to get a war. We all see what is happening with Hamas today and I would call the situation in Chile no different.
If you can call what is being tossed around as “democracy” in regards to Iran, then you really don’t believe in democracy. When it came to the general population, the Shah was always the more popular figure and the traditional Iranian leader. The KGB & CIA were constantly battling for Iran. The current situation in Iran shows that the bad guys (the KGB) won.
Hm. I’d have said Iran in particular shows that things were never quite as simple as that.
I don’t let anti-americanism get me down, just like I don’t get too bouyant when we get praise. Both tend to abstract and meaningless. I somehow kind peg my worth by abstractions. Of course much of our domestic lefties do, but that is only due to their lack of any self-esteem.
I do find it amusing that foreigners still will invest in the US at climbing rates. That seems to be the real proof in the pudding. The heads of state and rank and file of country X hates us and our policies, but buy our obligations all the while. And, ironically, I hate much of US policy as well, and we are becoming more fascistic as the days pass (or must as the $47 trillion accrual debt starts coming due). But we don’t need to have the process fed with the aid of off shore loans.
Chile. There is, even today when it is clear to the whole bloody world that Pinochet (definitely nobody’s cuddly pussycat & nasty to boot) was the catalyst in Chile’s recovery & Kleinwirtschaftswunder which ushered in the present democratic system, clearly no shortage of Allende admirers. These callow pig-ignorant fellow-travellers still laud a fervent admirer of Stalin & Mao whose atrocities would have made Heinrich Himmler envious…………..& these unredeemed shits can be readily found among our craven leaders.
Weep England……….for all the good it will do you. Idiots.
I’m not anti – american, I am anti – fundamentalist, anti – capitalis, anti – corporate, anti neo – con.
When I post comments on American sites suggesting that America’s Christian right might be a tad off the mark in suggesting that the world can only be saved if everybody everywhere accepts Jesus as their saviour and gives their life to God I get death threats (like they know where I live) promises that the Lord (or Samuel L Jackson) will strike down upon me with righteous anger because I am “a limey faggot” (I’m neither short of vitamin C nor a meat product made from offal, fat, breadcrumbs and seasoning.) I have visited America and found it a strange place – half the people are normal; friendly, if somewhat given to outbursts of ersatz emotion, intelligent and decent while the other half not only want to tell me about Jesus but also demand that I believe what they say and far from being uninterested in the outside world are bilssfully unaware that there is an outside world. And yet this divided and dysfunctional nation claims to lead the civilised world.
So people still think America was right to depose Saddam because he was oppressing his people. And they are not oppressed now?
Saddam may have been a tyrant but he was their tyrant and no amount of weasel words will change the fact that America and Britain launched an illegal war against a third world country already crippled by sanctions. The damage we have done is probably beyonf repair. Inevitably then Iraq will fragment and that may well plunge the middle east into a multi – national war. Next comes WW3, next global destruction.
All thanks to America.
Bravo to the Samizdatista who posted such a wonderful parody of moonbattery under the name “Ian Thorpe”!
I live in Latvia and we get a lot of Russian media opinions on the subject over here. And normally, knowing that their propoganda machine has not slowed down a bit after the collapse of the USSR, I take the oposite view of the official view of Kremlin and their main nationalistic media outlets. They have been bashing the USA with increasing intensity for quite some time and once in while my countrymen also get carried away with the same sentiment. In these moments I like to remind some of them to keep thing in perspective and look at the historic performance of the two countries. With all its faults I think the USA is the best thing that ever happened to the modern civilization especially in the second half of the 20th century when someone had to stand up against communism. However, I have to admit that the trend that it’s becoming hip to hate US is worrying me.
America has always been hated by someone; Dictators, Nazis, Communists, and generally the scum of the Earth. I don’t see a problem there.
I think that the hate directed against America by Europe’s elite media is going to have a major effect ten or twenty years from now when the young Americans who are taking it on the chin during their trips to the old continent are going to state voting and making policy.
They may simply want to ignore Europe and all it stands for, or they may want to return hate for hate. Having suffered through the intense anti Americanism of the late sixties and early seventies while living in Europe I developed less than friendly feeling towards those who so generously and personally poured their hate over me. I can only imagine what the effects will be on today’s generation of American kids.
Oh for god’s sake…
So long as mankind has been on this planet there have been in groups and out groups. Like it or not, the view of most of the people coming here places them in an out group for the majority of the population. So please, let’s have less self-righteous outrage.
Think about it – is this anti-americanism any different from the regular slagging given to the French by commenters here? Collectively I may find some (not all) of the actions of the US state distasteful, but almost every US citizen I have met, whether in Europe on on their home ground, has been courteous, polite and friendly – but then so are most nationalities. I find social workers and teachers pretty distasteful en masse, but I’m not so stupid as to ascribe my view of their profession to every individual practicing it – unlike many of those slagging off the French…
And was he Kuwait and Iran’s tyrant too when he invaded them?
You are just another fascist apologist. What a pity you did not live in Halabja.
People do tend to shy away from direct conflict, especially when in a foreign country, but the do remember the hostility.
Resentment lasts a very long time. At the levels of hate that now exist in Europe, the distinctions that people claim to make between the ‘state’ and individuals are in many ways meaningless.
In any case this kind of thing is just going to insure that the Republicans are going to remain the long term dominant party in the US for decades to come. Europeans may long back on George Bush as a generous and tolerant US leader compared with the ones whom they are now helping to create.
Ian Thorpe lists all his ‘antis’. What a twat. Even I, as a prize slagger of current Septic Isle morals & mores, have the positive thought…… or two (max;-) )
I assume he thinks the world would be a better place if run by stone-age Islamists who would be delighted to sever his empty head from its likely grotesque plumbing…..or maybe the Chinese who would, not before time, re-educate him….or the sterile vodka-soaked Russkies who just don’t know what time it is.
This short-term-memory-deficiency chap has forgotten Kuwait, Iran, ( Allah please bring them to their senses) , poison gas, peaceful Marsh Arabs and the curious use of industrial shredders. Nobody is perfect, dear Ian, but Puhleeeeze.
Anti-Americanism? – nothing more than the the bleating of the jealous and envious… and the Brits are so very good at that!
Cramped in their overcrowded cities, either in old decrepit housing or in sink estates of indescriabable squalor, it is little wonder that they look westward in envy.
Struggling to make a multicultural society -‘like America’, in some pathetic hope that it will restore an ‘old’ nation’s vitality, but entirely missing the point, as to why it works ‘there’, but doesn’t work ‘here’.
A decaying infrastructure, with little hope of ever making it work in the manner that it should, and all the while inviting more immigrants than can ever be employed, accomodated, or assimilated.
A Government that runs around like ‘chickens with their heads cut-off’, and achieving nothing – they cannot even make a reasonable job of being socialists, and that is supposed to be their forte!
Like all ‘poor performers’, all they do is criticise their more succesful peers.
Wasn’t it Ayn Rand who defined envy as ‘hatred of the good for being the good’.? Just about sums up European Leftist’s hatred of America.
(hah)
I’ve never forgotten the words spoken to me by someone with experience, shortly before my first trip to England. He said, “It’s a fossil country. It barely works.”
He was right, although I hated to see it.
I think my last comment has been zapped (maybe temporarily).
Thank your lucky stars Ian Thorpe…………& Hank Scorpio who should know better than to post crap.
My point seems to have been made for me – you can’t complain about anti-americanism while simultaneously spouting the sort of nonsense coming from emy and Billy Beck.
ian,
Just generalised comments, – and certainly not nearly so nonsensical as your original post.
If you like to dish it out, be prepared to get a reply…
Ian,
Of course, you are quite right. It would be nice to see Perry also complaining about generalised anti-French feeling amongst some of his fellow-travellers, but don’t hold your breath!
Of course, such broad-brush anti-American dislike is absurd. Hate Bush if you will, but there are plenty of cultured, intelligent and polite US citizens, from pretty much every part of their political spectrum.
But it is interesting to see that even here the recent upswell in anti-Americanism is recognised. Do you imagine that the reaction of most Americans will be isolationist, agressive-dismissive, or to actually vote for politicians that will behave differently?
I’m not going to get much into this overwrought p’ing contest except to make one point, and ask one question.
In 1939, the citizens of the US were overwhelmingly opposed to any involvement in a war in Europe, and the regular armed forces numbered around 200,000.
Everything that has happened since that time was a reaction to the very real danger posed by three virulent totalitarian ideologies—European fascism, Japanese fascist militarism, and Stalinist socialism.
The question is very simple—which of these adversaries would you have preferred to be victorious?
Blow me down with a fascist apology, but I’ll wager that a good number of Brits can tell the difference between the founding fathers’ meditations on the nature of liberty and the Republican party whipping the electorate into a frenzy over gay marriage.
I’ve also got a pound on their ability to spot the difference between the musings of Abraham Lincoln and those of George W.
Either that, or you can assume that a majority of the population of the UK are basically opposed to freedom, whichever makes you feel better.
Ian? You should try to understand: I found it quite charming in many ways. It was like a large theme-park.
It was a wonderful visit. And then, I came home to a country that — no matter how hard it’s trying to drive itself into the ground — was still a place for grown-ups to live.
Ever been here?
Tell the truth.
I’ve been censored…okay, I’m here by grace & favo(u)r & I can live with that. ‘veryretired’ has lucidly made the crucial point and spot on. Further comment is of no interest to a thinking soul. Good night; from ghoulies & ghosties & lily-livered traitorous beasties may the good Lord preserve us.
Editors note: you have not been ‘censored’, you comment was moderated and as, believe it or not, the editors have lives beyond Samizdata, there is sometimes a delay as all the editors are off earning money/getting laid/stage diving/whatever…
Funny how an article on anti-Americanism just makes Americans spout witless bile about Brits. Pot. Kettle.
Still awake….unfortunately. Crap on both sides. How fucking stupid when the West seriously needs to stick together. If we lose this one we have only our PC lefty compatriots to blame. A plague on our houses.
Here is a note that I just left at another place that was pointing out the same poll referred to in the Telegraph piece.
“Ignorant of the outside world.”
On checking out of a first-class hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia, I happened across the manager, who was Australian. He knew who I was (like: who I was with) and he came over to say good-bye. We chatted, briefly.
I remarked generally on the quality of his operation, saying that he had a staff to be really proud of. I especially complimented the housekeeping guy who took care of my floor. He was really terrific. We’d gotten to be pals, and actually greeted each other by name the next time I was there. (I gave him a U.S. Silver Eagle to commemorate the birth of his son.) I used to stand there looking out the window of my room and wonder all day long about that country, where Indonesian presidential security had warned us not to do too much walking about on our own. This housekeeping guy was extremely friendly and eager to answer all kinds of questions, but we also talked about America.
Saying good-bye to the hotel manager, I complimented this young man, and said at one point, “It was really remarkable: he knew far more about my country than I did about his.”
The man’s eyes glazed over just a bit as he reached for the best put-down that he thought he could get away with:
“Yes. It’s amazing, isn’t it?”
I got the drift right away.
“Well,” I said, “No, it’s not ’amazing’ if one thinks about it. When that guy looks around the world, the brightest thing he sees is America. If you don’t think so, then go ask him. It really is quite natural that people around the world are interested to learn things about my country, and a lot of them actually manage to do it. On the other hand, an American has a very different problem. We look around the world and if we want to learn details of other places, there are more of them than can fill up a whole lifetime. We have a far more difficult job in that aspect.”
“I’ll see ya.”
Walked off. He was very quiet. On my next visit, I was impressed that he’d gotten the point, at least a little bit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey, “TimC”: I’ve seen your country. Have you ever seen mine?
John, I do not (generally) criticise people dumping on France (either the state or its civil society) because I often think such criticisms are quite justified.
I am not opposed to all notion of anti-[insert nation here]-ism, because some nations are shit heaps with very little to commend them.
Ra ra ra.
Personally I am a hardcore atheist – like many Samizdatistas I suspect based on past articles – so really, the US is out. I have lots of US friends, have been there, and am not interested, on that reason alone. England has many flaws, but England is godless, probably the most godless nation on earth, and thats good enough for me. 😉
I sold up and left England with my family to live in the USA. I don’t regret it at all. Having said that there are things I don’t like about my new adopted country but they are few and far between and don’t spoil my everyday life.
Billy Beck’s story about Indonesia hits the nail on the head. America is the brightest light in the world. Most people in the world would love to live here. From western Europe America’s brightness is not so great; the light from these ancient nation states is bright enough to compete with the USA and makes it easier to make less than favourable comparisons. Most of the dislike of the US is based on simple jealousy and an unwillingness to admit to the failings of one’s own country.
As long as most of the people in the world want to live here it doesn’t matter what people say on state owned media networks in the rest of the world.
As for religion, it is true that the British people are by and large godless but one of the things I don’t like about my mother country is the continued, pathetic, inertial insistence on retaining an established religion. A common conversation starter here in Florida is “Which church do you go to?” When I answer that I don’t go to church people are respectful of my views. In that respect the US is more open and honest about religion. In the UK a big reason for the continued failure of the CofE to die is that non-religious white middle class people put in the required minimum attendance so the can get married or put their kids in a church school – that is a pathetic basis for a religion.
It is astonishing how Soviet disinformatsya has acquired a life of its own. Dr. Frankenstein, please call your office. It would be far too embarassing to find myself on the same side as Pat Buchanan – help us out here, guys. There are people who want to kill both you and us. Maybe we’re louts, maybe we’re not, but we aren’t the ones about to cut your throats.
Hello? Reality? Remember reality? It has sharp edges, does not respond to wishes or plans, and tends to bite.
Billy Beck
You claim to have a brain – use it and read what I said.
almost every US citizen I have met, whether in Europe on on their home ground, has been courteous, polite and friendly
You seem to be the exception that proves the rule…
(I haven’t corrected the minor typo but in case it is too taxing the first on should read or )
You’re absolutely right. You wrote it before I asked it.
That’s just about all that you’re right about.
Did anyone else think that the questions in this poll seemed rigged to prompt anti-American responses?
At the moment, the link to the poll itself doesn’t return the poll – instead, it goes to the Telegraph’s homepage, so I’m relying on my memory of the print edition. An example of the type of bias I have in mind is that in some cases they cite figures for people expressing a strong opinion as though they were the only people who responded to the poll.
The Telegraph has really gone downhill since the Barclay Brothers took over. In particular, that bimbo Alec Russell seems to have a particular loathing for the USA – there are days when it’s difficult to tell the difference between him and Gary Younge.
permanent expat,
Way off topic but you amused me by referring to “disadvantaged footballers”. I may not earn 100k a week but I’m (a) not stupid and (b) not ugly enough that my visage was rejected as being too frightful for the kiddywinks when hey test screened the rough cut of Shrek. Yup the likes of Rooney and Ferdinand are dim as Toc-H lamps and all the money in the world can’t make up for that. Bless them, they need 24 hr care.
In general, every country that has ever been global top-dog has come in for a bit of stick. You should read what was written on the continent about the British Empire in the 1890s. People probably said the same about the Romans. The irony is that the USA has “meddled” far less in the affairs of other countries than any of these other global luminaries.
Always believe the exact opposite of what John Pilger says and you won’t go far wrong.
First I admit I would much rather live in the U.S. than in the U.K. and that, in general, the U.K. is a country that is falling apart at the seams – well anything the government touches anyway.
However, America is a country which, to say the least, has multiple personalities.
You have no trouble finding people which are intelligent, thoughtful and, for want of a better word, worldly. There are parts where the Spanish Inquisition would feel right at home. It also has a tendency towards polarised hero worship / hatred of its politicians and can be scarily Jingoistic.
Of course, so can other countries. And much of the same criticisms can be leveled at the UK.
However, in the U.S. it seems to gravitate more to extremes so that global opinion tends to be more polarised as a result.
And as far the Real Politik part of it. I always took adverse reactions in some sectors to America’s past practice of it being more being held to a higher standard than anything else.
My 2c.
Ah… Humanity! Too have come so far and yet… too have learned so little! What a pity!
Love our country, but hate our government.
– Josh
Personally I am a hardcore atheist – like many Samizdatistas I suspect based on past articles – so really, the US is out.
Why? I’ve been an athiest for a bit over two decades, and have yet to find anyone in the US who cares.
We have atheists, agnostics and practising Christians amongst our number.
Also I have always found the whole ‘Jesusland’ notion of the USA is really overblown. In my experience even the most religious people I encounter do not treat me very differently when they discover my shoulder-shrugging agnosticism. Moreover I don’t rubbish their faith in front of them and they don’t try to cure my Godlessness, which makes for happiness all around.
I’ve never, in my whole life, ever met anybody in the flesh who was a regular churchgoer, Anglican or otherwise. Not even the couple of Muslims I have known were even remotely devout. My best friend is a “catholic” but really, its just something he says to be seen to be different.
I am well aware the Jesusland thing is overblown (come to think of it I think almost all the Americans I know are essentially atheists as well, and Seattle seemed pretty godless to me), but theres a huge swathe of Americans out there who actually believe that crap. OK, “huge” might be, say, “10%”, but its 10% too many for me!
As for general quality of life, so happens I’ve got a net friend who pretty much has the same life as me, but in Seattle instead of Cambridge – same job, same interests, same educational background, almost the same family background. His life /sucks!/. I wouldn’t swap mine for his any time soon.
Perry,
(Sorry for taking so long to reply. I requote your comment to save too much scrolling..).
No, good job I wasn’t holding my breath for an apology to the French! Well, I still think that generalising about an entire population on the basis of their current government’s policy and their current system of laws and social norms is dangerous. However, in the shorthand of political debate here, maybe such generalisations are a necessary evil.
In that spirit, the foreign policy of the current US Administration, the domestic laws that have been introduced (such as the “Patriot” Act), the economic mismanagement and the current chilly wind of illiberal, right-wing and religious bigotry all combine, for me, into a rather strong anti-American state of mind. As you have perceived, this view is ever-stronger and ever-more-widely-held in Europe now.
American “culture” – as globally caricatured – bores and sometimes disgusts me, but I acknowledge I am outnumbered everywhere by those who want to emulate it. I diskard them uterly (as Molesworth Major would say).
And yes, I have been to the USA several times, East, West and South. I have met many charming and intelligent locals of varying political views. Nevertheless, over 50% of the population voted for Bush when he stood for re-election. Their other options may not have been wonderful, but they still did it. So, as a generalisation, I think Americans are either stupid or wicked.
Such a generalisation is itself stupid and wicked of course – but ditto for France or any of the other “shit-heap” countries you guys are so happy to write off from your rather privileged positions.
Pegasus
I don’t hate our government, but I certainly don’t love it. Could anyone whose mind is even close to normal, love a government? Any government ? Ever ?
If you exclude government, laws and social norms, particularly the later, what is left upon which a rational person can judge the nature of a society?
This use of loaded word “privilaged” is an excellent short hand way of letting you know this is someone who can be ignored without further consideration.
John Ellis
American Culture is something entirely different from the foreign and domestic policies of its government and should not be discounted so lightly.
America after all has been responsible for two of the great art forms of the 20th century – Jazz and the Musical – from which virtually all our popular culture springs.
Duke Ellington is in my view the greatest composer of the 20th century – bar none.
I don’t see anything wrong with American culture myself. It’s so often insulted but really, what precisely are you insulting? You find Elvis and Metallica, say, really that crass? They are somehow an order of magnitude worse than the Beatles and Iron Maiden?
As for voting for Bush I think you’ll find the vast majority of Americans didn’t vote for anybody.
The Last Toryboy
It’s probably your friend’s own fault for having a life that “sucks.”
Thats a bit of a statement of faith, JB, and I don’t see what evidence you have to which backs it up, other than to defend the beloved US – indeed, I gave you no other information with which to make such a statement, which means your assertion can probably be safely ignored.
The US is not a magic bullet, is my only point. If g(x) is having a good life and a(x) is living in the States, then it does not follow that a(x) -> g(x), as it were… and if b(x) is living in Britain it equally does not necessarily follow that b(x) -> ¬g(x), from my own personal experiences.
The main advantage to move there far as I can tell is probably cheaper housing, but I’m the sort who could happily live in a shoebox and not care, and indeed would rather do that so I don’t waste money on something I gain no pleasure from, so thats not really a motivator. Or if you like the culture, would rather like the lifestyle that the US promotes, which, while I don’t dislike it by any means, I don’t find so vastly preferable to my own that I would want to up sticks and move there.
Live wherever you want to live and are most comfortable, is my motto. I must admit I was a bit surprised to hear an old friend had moved to France, but, well, horses for courses… If I was gonna emigrate anywhere it’d probably be to Australia.
But I think the heat would kill me. 🙂
Farah,
I found you post most amusing in the number of mistakes and misapprehensions you managed to cram into so few words.
1) I was not talking about the danger of judging the nature of a society, I was talking about the danger of judging “the French” or “the Americans”, as a people.
2) I went on to say that such generalisations may have a limited place in fora such as these, where it is too much work to analyse foriegn policy per se, so it becomes “the French attitude” etc. I then concluded by saying such lazy shorthand for proper analysis was stupid/wicked. As well as offensive, actually.
3) When I was talking about privilege, I was referring to Perry’s comment. You may not know him. I do, a bit, and he is intelligent and by no means a bum, but his circumstances are those that most people would consider privileged. Ask him, if you don’t believe me.
4) Your background is obviously less so, as you are not only unable to spell, but unable even to copy spelling from the line of text above your cursor.
5) You judge me as one to be ignored without further consideration, yet you do not ignore me. Shome mishtake, shurely?
Ah well, enough teasing.
ToryBoy and Ian, I take your point entirely. In fact, generalising about culture falls into the same category as gereralising about policy or social norms. I only raised the point as I believe the general trend Perry was referring to is as much a rejection for American culture as American policy. At least it is amongst my friends (many of whom are dyed-in-the wool entrepreneurs and Tory votes or the Thatcherite school).
And yes, LTB, most Americans (like most Brits) don’t vote. In that case, they are guilty of re-instating Bush by their indolence, so rather than being wicked, they are either stupidly lazy or entirely dis-enchanted with their system and their citizenhood. If the latter, they shouldn’t care if someone slags off “Americans”.
I apologise to them, of course, unreservedly…..
The Last Toryboy
How is it specifically the fault of the United States of America that your friend has a sucky life? You still haven’t addressed this issue.
I never said it was, did I? I just think it implies that if I emigrated there I wouldn’t necessarily do well for myself, any more than I may necessarily do well for myself (or not so well for myself) where I am.
So often when immigration is discussed, as in on this very thread, its in terms of jacking in the auld pointless fossil country sod for somewhere where the streets are paved with gold, and I don’t think its remotely like that.
Thats all I’m saying.
re. John Ellis
Why disenchanted with their system? Maybe they are just happy with their lives and don’t see much need to concern themselves with what the public sector is doing. Has Bush really been so evil to them? if he was then presumably he’d be out.
American culture, I’m honestly puzzled as to what people are rejecting exactly. As I know a few socialist anti-Americans, and know they eat burgers and watch Hollywood movies the same as everybody else, I have no idea what it is exactly they are railing against.
Billy Beck: Answer, yes, many times. Both coasts and the odd bit in the middle. Worked there for a little while and spent over a decade working closely with people in the US. Your point?
Resident alien
“…most of the people in the world would love to live here…”
At the current level of illegal immigration, most of the people in the world are going to live here and most of them will be anti-American!
Resident alien
“…most of the people in the world would love to live here…”
At the current level of illegal immigration, most of the people in the world are going to live here and most of them will be anti-American!
Sorry for the double tap.
Mm.
Toryboy, speaking as someone who lives in Seattle- it sounds like your friend is doing something seriously wrong. Life here is pretty good, so long as you don’t mind a bit of rain and hordes of Democrats.
At the current level of illegal immigration, most of the people in the world are going to live here and most of them will be anti-American!
The vast majority of illegal immigrants are very “pro-American.” They have risked a great deal to come here. Bearing in mind the large numbers involved if they were truly anti-American the country would be in flames.
RE: Anti-Americanism.
Being nationalistic is easy, but understanding history and other national viewpoints is difficult and hard to stomach, but necessary.
I am American. My husband is serving in Iraq, and I have photos of him with Iraqi children who wouldn’t have a chance if it weren’t for Americans. By now, they would have probably been raped or even dead. So, civilised people of the world, let’s think past democracies and oil and fabled Bush/Blair romances – let’s look at the innocent people who need us to be there, who rely on us to at least understand each other if we’re to even have a chance of understanding them.
Recalling World War II, it was the Brits who were in a desperate situation, evacuating their own children to the countryside to keep them safe from the Luftwaffe’s bombs.
The British society as we know it is here today because the American military crossed that comforting Atlantic pond, and put a stop to tyranny and brutal empiricism in Europe. My own grandparents were taken from their Ukrainian village and made to work on a German farm for 10 years. In America, they found a better life and a chance. I wouldn’t be here if they had not.
Similarly, the fact that Americans are in Iraq makes a huge difference in the lives of the Iraqi people, regardless of whatever resentment it brings from some ignorant factions. (Watching CNN does not maketh one enlightened) Hearing the real stories about the people there who risk their lives to help the cause, the children who take refuge in the international zone…that makes it worth it to me when I have to spend almost a year apart from my husband. To me, that’s what it means to be American.
Right, and that would explain the elections… moron.