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What comes next? What dismal dangerous times we live in.
Hot on the heels of the latest atrocity in Ukraine, I am seeing video after video after video of Israeli civilians being either brutalised and then kidnapped or just murdered in broad daylight by Jeremy Corbyn’s good friends Hamas.
I am overflowing with questions.
Israel seems to have been taken by complete strategic surprise on every level, comparable to 1973, by a Tet Offensive style assault. How did that happen?
And what is the Hamas endgame? Typically the effects of substantive military surprise last about three days, at which point it is hard to imagine an Israeli response that is not completely and utterly unrestrained.
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Give it a week, and it’ll all be Israel’s fault.
What Ellen said.
My main interest at this point is to see just how badly the Biden administration will f**k this up. My prediction would be – very badly indeed.
llater,
llamas
Hamas has chosen… Poorly.
I’ve said for years that the reason we still have a problem in the Middle East is that the “conversation” that is the war between the Arabs and the Israelis has been conducted in two different languages. The Arabs in Gaza and on the West Bank all think they’ve been winning, because people pay them tribute from around the world. Israel and the West see them and think “Losers, here’s some money…”
The Arabs of that region aren’t going to recognize that they’ve lost their little wars with Israel until the Israelis start talking to them in a language they understand. Which means, war without quarter, without restraint, until most of them are dead, dead, dead.
Germany was an issue after WWI. Why? They were unconvinced of the arguments in the conversation that was WWI. They did not, at a fundamental and base level, recognize that they’d lost. It took WWII and the destruction it visited upon Germany for them to admit to themselves that, hey, well… We may not be masters of the world, after all.
Israel has to have that conversation with the Arabs, and it has to speak just as clearly to them as the one we had with Germany during and after WWII. I don’t think the Arabs are going to learn until most of them are dead, because that’s the way they think. They’re still living in a mindset not far removed from the time of Ghengis Khan; you have to remember what it took to convince the Assassins of the Rock to become pacifist Sufis. Wasn’t a hell of a lot left of them, after the Mongols got done, was there?
Also wasn’t a hell of a lot of assassining going on around the Middle East, either.
There’s a lesson in that. Somewhere. Israel is going to have to learn it, if it wants to survive in peace.
Perry there is, sadly, no mystery.
The Israeli intelligence establishment has been, with their American and “NGO” (NGOs are vast – and fanatical about the agenda of the “international community”) associates, obsessively trying to undermine the elected Israeli government.
The forces of Islam are an after thought, if that, for the security and intelligence establishment – “getting Bibi” and “destroying the right” is all they have been interested in doing. The FBI and CIA in America are much the same.
As for the war – it could be won, cut off the electrical power and (very importantly) cut off the water – and allow the Islamic population to peacefully leave, which they would do when they were thirsty enough.
However, I think there is no real chance of this – the Israelis do not have, it appears, the ruthlessness needed to survive in a hard world. I hope I am WRONG.
Because the high echelons of military in Israel (and in West) are heavily politicized and influenced by anti-western western journalism plus they like nice high tech toys.
The leftist Haaretz newspaper made a twitter rightly attacking Israeli Intelligence that said that Hamas did not want war, well if Intelligence said they did, Hareetz journalists would have said the Intelligence community was full of warmongers.
“Intelligence” ain’t worth what we pay them for, I’m afraid.
The cult of “intelligence/secret service/espionage” needs to be eradicated. All that these assholes do is cause trouble; they’ve never yet actually provided any warnings or accomplished much that is of value.
Frankly, I’d prefer a situation wherein they didn’t exist, and you just had everything out in the open. Open-source intelligence, as you were…
You’d still have people doing the work of gathering information, but there’d be no more of this “secrecy” crap like running coups in other countries that serves nobody’s interests. Have people like the photo analyst guys doing their work still, but put it out in the open.
All this “intelligence” has gotten us, down the years is massive blowback. Look at the Russians, as an example: What benefit accrued to the Russians and the Romanov dynasty when their secret police agitated Serbian secret societies to kill the Archduke Franz Ferdinand? Where did that get anyone, aside from miserable and dead?
How many other cases of intelligence agencies getting their supposed employers in trouble are there, one wonders? I’d lay you long odds that many of Russia’s problems in the world come down to one thing, and that’s the incessant need for intrigue and espionage by Russian leaders… Not to mention, others. How much better off would Germany have been, had they refrained from setting Lenin loose on Russia?
One would hope. One would also hope that the US would have a hand in this response.
But it’s Biden, and his armory is empty, and I’d guess he’s not totally dismayed that Netanyahu is having a hard time of it while facing the pile of cash Biden just gave Iran/Hamas . . .
I have no doubt the US Dems are (quietly) cheering Hamas on right now.
Talking of Serbia, it’s looking more and more like we’re seeing lots of little 1913 events. We won’t notice it’s 1914 until it happens. 1914 was just the Third Baltic War until it wasn’t.
https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/10/07/cnn-analyst-the-real-problem-is-israels-response-you-know-n582972
Sure enough, Ellen called it.
llater,
llamas
@JGH,
The common thread here is “Russia”. They’re the ones egging Serbia on, they’re with Iran, and aligned with Biden’s administration fellow-travelers.
Thing I can’t figure out is what the hell the Ukrainians have on Biden that they’ve been able to keep him and his administration flunkies on-side for over a year. It has to be absolutely incriminating and amazing… Because, I’m pretty damn sure that Biden was involved with Russia due to the fact that Burisma was virtually a Russian front.
Lots of big secrets, here; if you know where to look, like the Iranian advocates who were engaged in the so-called “negotiations” with Iran that got them six billion dollars? Yeah.
Here’s what I’d be looking for, over the next few years: All this coming out. Israel has no interest in hiding what it knows, and they have to have a pretty good handle on what’s been going on in the Biden administration and its Iranian advocacy. My guess is that the information will come out, and it won’t look good at all.
I don’t believe for one minute that the Israelis had no idea this was coming. They have consistently had 100% intelligence mastery over their adversaries for 50 years or more.
The cynic in me says that the Israelis have taken careful note of what has been getting solid traction in the arena of worldwide public opinion the last few years – namely, video atrocities and barbarity – and they’ve consciously decided to open this campaign with a plentiful supply of those. There will be some unfortunate civilian casualties. But these horrible events, carefully documented by a Western press that eats that s**t up, may form an excellent springboard for a really – kinetic – response, with the inevitable Western handwringing severely attenuated.
As Kirk observes, the forces arrayed against Israel are dead men walking and don’t know it. My prediction – which is worth just about exactly what you paid for it – is that Israel will commence an entirely-disproportionate response, going through the opposition like a hot knife through butter, until the Camel Corps (the US State Department), and the Biden Administration generally, gets them to stop. Biden and his clique are entirely in the pockets of the Arab powers in the region. But they have so-completely f**ked up the politics of the region that this time, maybe, the Israelis will turn around and say ‘No. F**k you. We’re done playing your games, especially with real nukes on the near horizon. You let this happen. We’re going to clean house this time.’
As to the reaction of US Dems – give it an hour or two. The Sunday-morning US talking-head shows are all in a bidding war for Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, AOC, Ayana Pressley, Keith Ellison, etc, etc, etc. Tomorrow morning, you won’t he able tp move for the tide of condemnation of Israel and support fir Hamas. Some is already leaking out, see sbove.
llater,
llamas
More military strikes will achieve nothing – not if they are the standard “let us kill some Hamas and blow up some arms dumps” style strikes.
“When you lay wounded on Afghan plains and the women come out to cut up what remains…..” (Kipling), when the women come out to cut up what remains.
The people who dragged Jewish woman and children naked through the streets, spitting on them (and worse) before cutting them up, were not just “Hamas” fighters, who are rather busy – the people who did this were the “civilian” Islamic population.
If you look at a map, you will see that the “Gaza Strip” has to be removed – it makes the border of Israel far too long, removing it would vastly shorten the border. This has been known for decades – but NOTHING has been done, as the WILL to do it is lacking.
As for the eastern border, the defendable eastern border would seem to be the Jordan River valley, and it makes no sense to leave a large enemy population behind that border – although I am very willing to see an alternative proposed border. As long as it is a military border – not a border based on the illusion of the possibility of peace, there-can-be-no-peace.
These are the facts – and they have been known for many years (very many years) – act in line with the facts, in line with objective reality, or perish.
llamas.
If Israeli intelligence “knew this was coming” they left many Jews to die horrible deaths – men, women and children.
I think the security and intelligence services are politically biased idiots – too obsessed with “smashing the right” (like their American colleagues – who act the same way in the United States) to bother keeping a close eye on the forces of Islam. But you are alleging something far worse – that they knew the forces of Islam were going to attack and made a deliberate decision to leave many Jews, men, woman, and children, to be tortured, mutilated and killed.
Historical point – this is the first time I have seen the theory that “Russian intelligence” was behind the murder of Franz Ferdinand – the theory may be true, but it is the first time I seen it.
The Serbs do not to be stirred up – they have grudges that go back hundreds of years, grudges that are always near the surface and can flame up without any prompting. They have committed terrible crimes – and they have had terrible crimes committed against them over the centuries, that is the Balkans.
By the way – the military assessment of the Imperial Russian Army was that they would be ready for war in 1918 – and barely ready even then. War came in 1914 – when Imperial Russia was utterly unprepared for it.
The French military reorganisation was due to be under way by – 1916.
German military intelligence knew that neither France or Russia were ready for war – which is why it was Germany who declared war on them in 1914.
I appreciate that Israeli politics had become very polarised and internally focused. I also appreciate that the best intelligence services have missed some things that in hindsight seemed obvious. Still, it does seem odd that Israeli’s military and intelligence services didn’t pick up that something was about to happen. Gaza is apparently only 140 sq miles large and has extreme population density. This wasn’t some isolated terrorist attack or incursion. It was a full scale operation. Perhaps there’s something I’m missing.
@Paul Marks,
At the time, the Balkans were a miasma of factions and utter idiocy. The faction within Serbian intelligence services that got the Black Hand spun up and going after the Archduke were getting paid by Russian spymasters, just like today. The Serbs never seem to learn that lesson; they were equally susceptible to Russian influence when it was the Soviets and still Yugoslavia. Tito was constantly having to watch his back, and he used the other ethnic groups to keep them in check.
This is in the various history books, if you go looking. A lot of the general histories gloss over the details of who was paying for it all, but the fact is that the Serbians weren’t exactly flush with cash, and the Russians were doing whatever they could to destabilize and cause problems for the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The funny thing is hearing some of the more aware Serbs talking about this… They feel betrayed by the Russians, time and time again, but they keep right on going back to the football, just like Charlie Brown and Lucy. “This time it’ll be different, you’ll see…” isn’t an isolated phrase used only in US politics.
I suspect that this Hamas thing has been spun up by both Iran and Russia, working together. They don’t like what Israel has been doing in Syria, and this is their way of making Israel hurt and stop doing things to their forces.
I don’t think it’s going to work out for either of them.
Very interesting to see Azerbaijan taking Israel’s side. Very interesting… You have to wonder where the Israelis have been getting direct access to Iran to do those intel jobs like hitting the nuclear program’s records warehouse. As well, why Iran has been so dead-on going after the Azeris…
The hostage-taking is a tell, here. Watch what happens, with that.
Huge ‘effing mess that probably wouldn’t have happened had Biden not given the Iranians all that money, the stupid bastard.
I am surprised that Israeli citizens living so close to Gaza were unprepared for anything like this.
We tend to think Israelis are heavily armed, but this is not so. Israeli gun laws were based on those of the British mandate, and so did not encourage civilians to be armed. I had thought that this had been changed, and that Israelis were now permitted to own arms for self defence. Not enough of them have taken advantage of this right. I expect they thought the IDF would protect them, and if so, they were sadly mistaken.
Phase 1. Destroy Hamas command and control. Shortly/concurrently with…
Phase 2. Destroy deep infrastructure. Electricity, water, telecoms. Do they have gas? Hit that as well. If possible cause fires which the lack of water and telecoms will make difficult to fight.
Phase 3. Crack. Bombing/rocket/artillery strikes on towns to break buildings open.
Phase 4. Burn. Napalm the cracked buildings. We want a full on firestorm.
Phase 5. Harrasment raids to combat what fire-fighting/rescue still goes on.
Endpoint. The few who survive will no longer fear Admiral Ackbar. For they will have truly seen Hell.
What comes next is we will discover just how many Hamas supporters we now have in western countries. Just give it a few days once Israel’s response really gets underway.
@NickM,
I’m afraid the Israelis still haven’t digested the raw facts about who they’re dealing with, and what they need to do in order to permanently solve this situation.
The unfortunate thing is this: The Arabs in Gaza are brainwashed idiots living in a different century. They think that they’ve a right to Israel, and that Jews are less than the dirt beneath their feet. You’ve got seventy damn years of hatred and dysfunction to deal with, here, and the Israelis need to bite the bullet and deliver a permanent solution while not losing their own humanity. I’m not sure that they can do it.
Here’s a news flash for people: War is literally hell. You cannot do it by half-measures; you have to convince your enemy that he is defeated, utterly. The Arabs in Gaza have demonstrated time and time again that they cannot identify their own defeat, nor can they stop what they are doing. This means that there is no way of dealing with them short of what we did to the Comanche. It is that bad, and I don’t think the Israelis have the stomach for it. They’re too civilized, too “nice”.
Circa the wars of Yugoslav dissolution, there was an incident involving Dutch peacekeepers and the Serbs. It was a bit of a confrontation, and in order to intimidate the Dutch, the Serbs started slaughtering hogs right there next to the ohsocivilized Dutch contingent. Slaughtering with sledgehammers and knives, brutally, making the hogs scream like they do when you do that. They sound like women screaming when you do that, and the Serbs were demonstrating that right in front of those nice Dutch city boys.
That worked, and the Dutch backed off, thinking that the Serbs were utter barbarians. This was a fundamental mistake, by the Dutch leadership on-scene. They allowed the Serbs to intimidate and frighten them off that checkpoint, and visibly reacted very badly to the hogs being slaughtered. Dutch soldiers were vomiting and visibly disturbed. The Serbs, being grand poseurs, laughed at them and thought they’d shown them something. Maybe they had. Dunno.
I do know that the Dutch reacted in exactly the wrong way. Someone tries to out-horror you? You have to respond in kind; it’s a sort of theater of one-upsmanship and horror. Had that been me and my guys in that situation, I’d have probably had a word with a couple of my Samoans, and told them to go into their cannibal act. Which they were damn convincing at doing, let me tell you… They’d have likely waded in to join the Serbs killing those pigs, and done so with gusto, while eying the Serbs as though they were being picked out for duty as “long pig” at some future point. End of the day, I suspect that we’d have either come out even, or managed to out-squick the Serbs; I’d have never let that situation leave them with the idea that I or my men were at all intimidated by them, the way the Dutch had.
This happened before Srebrenica, BTW. I heard about it from another observer, through the grapevine, and the first thing I thought was “Man, the Dutch are just too nice, too civilized… And, they had no idea what the hell they were giving in to, and setting up for later…”
War is largely a psychological thing. Defeat is an event that takes place only in the mind of the leader or combatant. If you don’t convince them that they lost, you haven’t won. And, that is precisely the problem with Israel and the Arabs. The Israelis think “Yeah, we showed them… We won, now we can afford to be magnanimous in victory, giving them some nice things like greenhouses, and helping them repair their communities…”
The Arabs see that, and it just confuses them: “Wait… They’re giving us tribute? We really won, didn’t we!!!!”
Israelis think they’re fighting a Western opponent, like the Dutch. They’re not; they’re fighting cultural revenants from the 7th Century, and there’s zero ability on their part to appreciate generosity and mercy. They wouldn’t show it; see what they’ve done with their captured Israelis.
What the Israelis really need to do would get them turned into international pariahs, so I doubt they’re going to do it. But, that’s what it will take, dealing with the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank. They’re not going to accept that they’ve been defeated until they’re dead, I fear.
Hamas has a history of similar losing-but-horrible raids. It fits their purpose to carry out a raid like this, do horrific things, and make sure it is all broadcast in detail, in the hope that Israel will react – overreact, actually – and thus bring world support. It’s the M.E. version of “Republicans pounce!”
If it costs many thousands of Palestinian lives, it seems to be of no account to Hamas. They probably see themselves withering away with no global attention, and are looking to bring themselves back into the limelight.
We’ll now watch as Israel retaliates – carefully, looking to avoid taking “innocent” lives – but our mainstream media worldwide will spend the next month decrying the bloodthirsty Israelis – in service to their friends in Hamas.
Now is the time to take names of our own Hamas supporters.
A good read:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-wounded-weakened-israel-is-a-fiercer-one/
Indeed. We are already seeing some of the celebratory flag waving, but in addition to seeing the sheer numbers that will be attending the demonstrations we will need to take note of just how many Hamas sympathizers now occupy influential positions in our governments and institutions.
What I don’t understand is why doesn’t every household have a semi automatic rifle and a large pile of ammunition? Every Israeli male has served in the military and so is familiar with how to use such a weapon. And it is exactly the sort of weapon needed in this situation. Obviously there isn’t much to do against rockets, but it seems much of the violence was rather more personal in nature. However, from what I can see, Israel has fairly restrictive gun regulations. Why that is true is entirely beyond my understanding given the situation for the past fifty years there. How terrible to be hiding in your home as a mob surrounds the place for many hours, waiting for rescue because your government has taken away the one tool that would save you and your family in this situation.
They are monsters. They teach their children to be monsters. As the Palestinians celebrate this murderous rampage in the streets, as their children chant for joy at the bloodbath that their parents have caused, the IDF will prepare their response. You can be sure that no Israeli will be celebrating the deaths that occur in these reprisals. They will be tortured in their souls that they had no choice but to do what they did, and weep for the innocent dead that their forces will collaterally inflict.
I have seen reports that the Israeli PM is warning of a long and difficult war, which suggests that he is not serious about winning it, whatever ‘victory’ might look like.
I have read that Israel has stopped supplying Gaza with electricity, and that water supplies are out there. AIUI, Gaza has its own limited water sources, relying significantly on desalination. I can see no reason why Israel should supply an enemy with electricity. We did not run a cable under the Channel to France to supply them with power under German occupation in 1941. This could however have drastic consequences and might be seen as or called a war crime.
In wondering what might be a way to ‘end’ things, ominous words, I find myself wondering what would a (peak) Roman General have done? Clearly it would be unacceptable to Israel to (ironically) employ ‘Roman’ methods in dealing with difficult neighbours.
How do you deter someone who is determined to seek martyrdom?
Imagine if in South Korea, there were a North Korean city enclave halfway down the east coast, prone to launching missiles and incursions into the South. It would be intolerable. Just as with North Korea, you cannot distinguish the regime from the people as they are apparently fully obedient to the regime’s orders. If the regime’s ‘police power’ is removed, and seen to be destroyed, only then will you see what people there really think.
The only imaginable solution I see (and I do not say it is possible, right or acceptable) is to copy the blueprint for the Greek/Turkish population exchanges in the 1920s, which were not complete, but adapt it so that Israel de jure is home to the Jews, and the Arab Christians from neighbouring countries can (if they wish) move to the West Bank and Gaza and swap with the locals, giving the Christians a safe refuge and buffer and a common interest in defending themselves against the aggressive quasi-States of Hezbollah and Hamas and any future regime that might control the neighbours.
I also understand that fighting has broken out in The Lebanon with Hezbollah, after they launched artillery strikes.
I’d also note that this conflict follows by a few days the effective expulsion of c. 120,000 Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh after the Azeri army attacked, and there is a wholesale population transfer taking place, there seems to be little bother in the ‘international community’ about it, but the Armenians are Christian in culture.
It would be a horrific event if the conditions in Gaza drove the people into Egypt, even if a mirror-image echo of the flight from Egypt.
Israel are Azerbaijan’s main arms supplier.
Turkey are also a large supplier.
Turkish media has been very pro Azeri – for obvious reasons. Mr Ed is correct – the government of Armenia (mostly made up of “ex” NGO types) serves its international masters – it has nothing but contempt for the Armenian people, and the “international community” has done nothing to protect the Armenians – no more than was done a century ago.
As for the international media on Israel – on essentially all stations (even Talk TV in the United Kingdom) endless Israeli traitors (and I use the word “traitors” after thought and consideration – traitors is what they are) attacking the “right wing” Israeli government, and prattling on about the “protests” (which are funded by Americans – and pushed by the American intelligence agencies) in support of “the rule of law” – the rule of leftist judges loyal to the “international community” and “peace”.
If you want to “protest” about something “liberals” – then protest against the “Gun Control” regulations that left so many Jewish civilians defenceless.
What comes next is we will discover just how many Hamas supporters we now have in western countries.
It’s not about directly supporting Hamas though (outside of the lunatic fringes of several political parties, bbc middle east correspondents, the foreign office, the usual crowd of rent-a-gob actors musicians writers sportspeople etc etc plus millions of recent immigrants).
Instead here’s a few simple litmus tests:-
Will premier league footballers be taking a knee for Israel this afternoon?
Will there be a moment of silence before kick-off?
Will Celtic fans leave their Palestinian flags at home for the next game?
Will “I stand with Israel” trend on Twitter?
Will the Israeli flag be added to peoples bios?
I think we know the answer.
Israel needs two things.
Militarily defendable borders – the Gaza Strip salient can not be tolerated – look at a map, and if the Jordan River valley is not the correct military eastern border what is? Again – look at a map.
And Israel needs to get the enemy population to leave – no nation can survive with vast numbers of enemies inside its borders (Western European nations and the United States – please note concerning your own emerging security situation).
If the “liberals” do not like the above – no one is asking them to stay in Israel, they can go and join their paymasters in the international community.
As a side note, if the Tories in the U.K. have sense, they’ll remind people that Starmer campaigned to put Corbyn into 10 Downing Street.
John – correct.
And, of course, it is not really about “Hamas” as an organisation – if every last “member” of Hamas was killed today, they would be replaced tomorrow, perhaps under a different name, but with the same policy of exterminating the enemies of Islam.
Nor is “the land between the river and the sea” particularly special to them – they feel the same way about Britain or America. They are logically consistent – Allah and his prophet Muhammed do not, in their view, limit themselves to a little land “between the river and the sea” – about the size of Wales.
Johnathan Pearce – if by “the Tories” you mean the people in control of Central Office (and so on) they are far more likely to punish me, for what I have written on this thread, than they are to attack the Labour Party, or the Islamic community.
“Islamophobia” is very bad – if Winston Churchill was alive today he would likely be punished for what he wrote in “The River War”. And many of the things Mr Churchill said and did could be held to violate such key pieces of legislation as the Equality Act of 2010. Parliament could repeal this Act – and the other pieces of legislation, but do not hold your breath for that.
I’m impressed by how fast a number of US Democrats, despite the fact that their chief just effectively gave Iran $6bn, are saying the Republicans are to blame for this.
The Iron Dome appears to have been breached to a degree not previously seen.
Does anyone have any views about whether it might have been accidentally or deliberately compromised?
Apologies for the tinfoil hat but this could have been the obvious external forces or, much worse, internal elements opposed to Netanyahu.
I’m pretty sure it was just overwhelmed by the numbers of rockets and drones used. Hamas has revealed a massive increase in their weapons supply and capabilities.
Well, obviously Hamas sees dead Palestinians as much of a plus as dead Israelis. It creates martyrs which stokes the cycle. It get’s them international prestige as the heroic underdogs. Israel needs better PR. It used to have it. Most people thought Operation Thunderbolt was brilliant. What went changed? Why did Arafat win a Nobel Piss Prize? Why are people in Britain prepared to celebrate a Hamas attack on a music festival but will go ape over Israeli F-16s bombing terrorist training camps and weapons factories? Why do the people who support ludicrous extensions to LGBTWTF+++ “rights” here also support Arab states that kill gays? How can people do such double-think? And yes, any robust response by the IDF will get crucified. More double-think because it is clearly a response to a massive military incursion and it is utterly justifiable to level Gaza because that is clearly what Hamas want to do to Israel. They have said as much for decades.
Is it just because Muslims are more likely to carry out acts of barbarism than Jews? Is it just that we are scared? Is that why so many used weasel words about Salman Rushdie? And we have a King who wants to be a “Defender of Faith“.
John,
I think Kevin Jaeger is probs on the money here. Iron Dome/Iron Beam were not designed for this sort of massive assault.
“Iron Dome/Iron Beam were not designed for this sort of massive assault.”
True, but the optics become more difficult for Hamas. They may have learned that they need to stockpile and then launch an absolutely humungous barrage to overwhelm the defences, rather than sending smaller numbers on a regular basis, but then:
1) they can’t pretend to be the poor underdogs
2) the media really can’t ignore it. They’ll try but more people will see where the problem really lies…
Pedant,
I was with you right up until “The media really can’t ignore it”.
There is nothing that todays media can’t ignore.
Coupla things going to happen, here: One, the “world media complex” is going to understate and belittle the fates of the Israeli citizens taken hostage. All those rapes? All those murders? They’ll never be emphasized or talked about, outside Israel and the specialist Jewish-faith media that nobody else sees or listens to.
Two, we’re going to hear and see endless repetitive reporting about the supposed “inhumanity” and “excess” of the Israeli response.
If you think this isn’t going to have an effect on Israeli and Jewish attitudes and policies? You’d be a fool; the world is creating a situation where the Israelis (rightfully, in my mind…) are going to develop and maintain an even stronger persecution complex. They’re also losing their patience and forbearance regarding these issues.
Where that ends? I have zero idea. I’ve always said that the Arabs are going to “f*ck around and find out” just what a Jewish terrorist-fanatic really looks like, and they’re not going to like it, not one bit. The Israelis internalized a lot of the Western way of war during their long exodus from their homeland. They’ve forgotten the old ways, the ones from the Old Testament. You know… The ones where they slaughtered the Canaanites? Without mercy? Those “old cultural patterns”?
The Arabs are going to regret pushing the Israelis to remember those and revert to them. So, too, will most of the rest of the world. I just hope that when the time comes, they remember that their Jewish compatriots here in the US were instrumental in driving Donald Trump from office, putting Joe Biden and his Krime Krewe in office to fund all this through Iran. 6 billion dollars, and again, Trump made a very prescient (which was really just common sense…) prediction about how that would enable Iranian terrorism throughout the Middle East. I wouldn’t blame Israel a bit for considering Washington DC as an enemy capital, with Joe Biden and his handlers running things.
Don’t be really surprised when and if you see a bunch of Western capitols going up under mushroom clouds. All y’all deserve it, as do we. The Arab issue would have been solved sixty years ago, had all the varied and sundry assholes of the world not enabled their little fantasies.
Every time I hear the waily-waily-woe about the “refugee camps” in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, I have to ask… What the hell happened that all the Jews thrown bodily out of the Arab states aren’t still lingering in camps, sixty-seventy years later? They’re living productive, useful lives, contributing to the world, not doing self-destructive things like terrorizing their neighbors. By the numbers, rather more Jews were refugees from Islamic lands than Arabs were ever from what was Israel. So, why do we keep subsidizing these parasitical rats that attack from the sewers they made for themselves?
Do note that this whole thing was enabled by the Israelis doing exactly as every “right thinking” moron in the world demanded, which was leaving Gaza and the West Bank, trying to make peace with the Arabs. That worked out really well, now didn’t it?
We’ll all pay the blood price. Watch and see.
Enemy electricity and water supplies still not cut off, and the IDF still warning Islamic “civilians” before it does anything – seemingly terrified of the Israeli courts, who are loyal to the “international community” not to Israel.
Hopefully things will change – hopefully the elected Israeli government will finally wake up. Sending the judges on a way trip to San Francisco would be a good start. As for the NGOs – send them to Langley Virginia (again – one way), that is, after all, where the NGOs and the “protestors” get their orders from.
Allow the Islamic population to peacefully go to Egypt and the other nations of the Islamic world.
“But there are more than a 100 Israeli hostages – women, young children…”.
Thank “gun control” regulations for that – many Israeli families were unarmed, defenceless.
Sadly Russian doctrine is correct on the point of hostages being held by terrorists – they should, for the purposes of military operations, be treated as already dead. Although, as they are being tortured, any opportunity should be taken to end their suffering.
Not going to happen, that “peacefully” thing. And, the other Arabs want nothing to do with the residents of Gaza or the West Bank; Jordan tried that, back in the old days. Got them nothing but trouble…
No, I think its an existential issue between them, and it has to be solved there in Gaza and the West Bank. The Arabs there don’t seem to be interested in much of anything besides nursing old grievances and killing Jews, sooooo… Do the math.
This is the end result of all that UN-sponsored charity and “aid”. You supported that? Look in the mirror; you are responsible for this having finally happened. What happens next? Also your responsibility.
There are no Jewish “refugees” from the diaspora forced on them by the Arabs after ’48. They’re all leading productive, decent lives somewhere, mostly in Israel. The Arabs, by contrast? Still a festering sore on the face of humanity, unable to acknowledge they screwed up by going after the Jews in the Palestinian Mandate in the first place. They could have all lived together in peace, but what did they do in ’48? Yeah. That’s why this is going on, along with the UN jackasses never having ripped the band-aid off and told them the reality, which was that because of their actions, they weren’t ever going back.
At this point, I’m not going to condemn the Israelis for doing the necessary. They have no choice; I don’t support it, I don’t like it, but I see no other lasting solution. The Arabs need to be driven into the ocean and have precisely what they want for the Israelis visited upon them, instead.
If you can stomach it, watch all those videos of what they’ve done and are currently doing to all those hostages. That’s the reality, and if Israel fell, that is exactly what they’d be doing to every Jew they could get their hands on. You support the Arabs in this bullshit, then that’s what you’re supporting. Own it.
They’re not humans of our century, I’m afraid. They need the Mongol treatment, just like the Assassins got. The Ismailis and Sufis are what came out of that, pacifists all. Worth thinking about, that…
The endgame is to kill as many people as they can.
Pretty much.
Nihilists and madmen, all. You really have to wonder what it is about the religion that brings out this worst of all human behaviors… You have your paroxysms of violence and internecine slaughter with other faiths, but it’s not all the time and something that most have grown out of. And, instead of directing the hatred outwards, most of the others direct it at fellow faith-members that have turned “heretical”, like the Catholics on the Cathars, or the Stalinists on the Trotskyites…
I think you’d be hard-pressed to find another religion that has been as hard on their neighbors as the Muslims, outside of the Communists or perhaps whatever faith it was that the Aztecs had going… In sheer numbers of atrocities and outrages down the centuries, Islam has them all beat, I think.
I keep coming back to this sad fact: It took the Mongols doing what they did to reform the Assassins. Nothing short of that seems to work…
Oh, and let’s not forget the starting point for all of this: That sanctimonious prick Jimmy Carter and his oh-so-pious renunciation of the Shah of Iran for fairly unprecedented reasons.
Still no real explanation for why he did that, but you can look at his finances and how he has been supported by Saudi interests down the years for a possible one. My best guess is that he was supported in his election campaign by Saudi money in order for him to be able to destroy the threat that the Saudis saw in the Shah.
The “humanitarian” reasons he proclaimed for his decision to turn on one of America’s best allies in the Middle East ring falsely, when you look at all the people that the mullahs have killed, along with the other things it sparked, like Afghanistan. Jimmy’s “saintly” little ideas killed rather more people than some tyrants, when you tote it all up. The Soviets wouldn’t have gone into Afghanistan with a strong Shah sitting in Tehran; the Iran-Iraq War wouldn’t have happened, and all the various and sundry terrorist groups that the mullahs have created, supported, and managed down the years wouldn’t have existed.
Thank you, Jimmy Carter. It’s been nearly fifty years, and your sanctimonious bullshit is still killing people in wholesale numbers. The joke about him being history’s greatest monster? It ain’t entirely wrong, ya know…
And, the rest of these Democrat assholes like Obama and his flying senile monkey minion, Biden? They’re just adding fuel to the fire, the miserable bastards.
I must admit, this is interesting. But where to start ??
Not much air time given to this news item. Behavior likely to stir up the emotions of the already ‘hot-headed’ Moslem population.
I presume this occurred on Monday 2rd October. I don’t much watch the BBC or ITV mainstream news, so I don’t know how much prominence it’s received?
Then we have this rather elderly news item. Given the volume of munitions sent to over there, yet no one seems to know where it’s all gone. That seems quite reckless to me.
And by the way, according to Claude Junker, Ukraine is “corrupt at all levels of society”. Now if anyone is an expert on corruption, it’d be Claude Junker.
So, there is a fair chance that HAMAS and Hezbollah now have brand spanking new weapons systems to deploy in Israel. But also the in West, there were unconfirmed rumors of ‘military style’ weapons spotted in the recent French riots.
And then, perhaps most surprising of all, Israeli’s don’t have an automatic right to self defense.
Finally, I wish the British government would show some equally strident rhetoric, ( and would it be too much to ask, action ? ) about the never ending stream of ‘boat people’ ( by now, in quantity a real invasion ), or the nearly fifty year campaign of rape, murder and thievery inside the borders of the British State?
Oh FFS don’t tell me you bought that propaganda horseshit? Once stuff arrives in Ukraine, it gets quickly pushed into the supply system and used. The idea it can all be tracked once it reaches the FEBA is idiotic.
It is also worth pointing out that one of the most underrated accomplishments of the Trump administration was the Abraham accords. Almost since the founding of the modern state of Israel American presidents have been trying and failing to bring peace to the middle east. Carter was lionized for his deal between Israel and Egypt. Trump (or really Kushner I believe) in these accords formed agreements between Bahrain and the UAE with Israel, and by all accounts was on the cusp of an agreement between Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Oman, plus several unnamed others. Yeah, Saudi Arabia FFS. They used to be one of our closest allies and best partners (in a you scratch my back kind of a way), and all that got pissed away by the mentally incompetent Biden in the first ten minutes of his presidency.
These accords are nothing short of miraculous. Of course this amazing success has been hidden in the press because orange man bad. Had Trump stayed in office these agreements would have continued and could have been leveraged to either have prevented this or to deal with it very effectively. We would be on a track to growing peace in the middle east rather than on track for a conflagration that could easily spin out of control.
Instead of a president who was bringing peace to the middle east, we have a bumbling fool who probably isn’t even sure which side he is on. And, as I like to remind everyone, the cause of this disastrous situation is because the American people decided to do it. It is not really the Democrats’ fault. Tyrannical politicians are always waiting in the wings to spring on any opportunity. It is the American people’s fault. They voted for them, they gave them power. And even after two years of the worst presidency in modern times they reaffirmed their choice in the 2022 mid term elections.
APL: “Not much air time given to this news item. Behavior likely to stir up the emotions of the already ‘hot-headed’ Moslem population.”
Looking to that news item:
“More than 200 settlers entered the compound and performed Jewish rituals in front of the Bab al-Qattanin gate . . .
I suppose that the atrocities yesterday and today were simply Palestinian Muslims performing their own brand of “religious rituals.” Quite the contrast.
Fraser Orr: “Instead of a president who was bringing peace to the middle east, we have a bumbling fool who probably isn’t even sure which side he is on.”
He’s on Valerie Jarrett’s side, which is Obama’s side, which is Iran’s side.
I can’t help but cynically laugh at the contrast:
Trump, the supposed madman no-nothing lunatic, despite his flaws, improved middle eastern relations, improved relations with North Korea and Russia, and while he (rightly) played hardball with China on economic issues, few were talking like war between China and the US was a major likely possibility. Trump even got on well with many leaders who he didn’t necessarily have a lot in common with ideologically, such as AMLO in Mexico.
Under Biden, with the ‘adults’ back in charge, the so-called Atlanticists and rules based order advocates running everything, the world has gone to s*it, while they let the US be invaded and their major cities become hellholes.
You hope.
So why on Sept 18th, did AP report that “six Ukrainian deputy defense ministers were fired, Monday following the dismissal two weeks ago of Defense Minister Reznikov in a corruption scandal, …” ?
Not just a ‘run of the mill’ corruption scandal, a corruption scandal involving the Defense minister Reznikov, and six of his deputies! Currently, in Ukraine THAT’S the nexus of all the US funding. You SURE all those munitions are getting to the front ?
Anyway, we don’t really need Ukraine to be supplying arms and munitions to HAMAS. It could just as easily be Afganistan.
I think you may have forgotten previous discussions on Samizdata, I’m not exactly well disposed to Islam or its adherents. But I do know they are easily incited and have a very low threshold of violence.
APL said:
If Islam insists and persists in behaving like deranged spoiled children, well… I don’t really feel the slightest amount of pity for them when the reaction comes.
People forget that what brought in the Mongols wasn’t some wanton desire to conquer; Khwarazim humiliated, robbed, and murdered his emissaries first. At the time, Ghengis Khan was focused on his main enemy, China and the other meddling types that had been setting the steppe peoples on each other. He wanted peaceful commerce with the Islamic nations; he got what he got, and then they got what they got. To this day, the Islamics remember: Part of why they’re not too hepped up on doing anything for the Uyghur has a lot to do with cultural memories of what came out of their East to deal with their arrogance the last time they stirred up trouble from that direction.
End state? They’ll get what they’ve earned, which is going to be based on how they treat their neighbors. From the Barbary pirates on down to Hamas and Boko Haram, they’ve been utter shiite to everyone their territory borders. They will be paying for that, one day. Might be sooner than anyone realizes, at the rate this is going…
Perry, the answer to your first question is entropy.
Mossad too busy spying on the rightists to pay attention elsewhere. Sounds familiar.
You are not the only one
The most dishonest profession exists to do censorship.
Count the number of media that will title the Hamas massacre of 200 civilians in a music festival as a “Massacre”.
So, you’re argument against the possibility of corruption in Ukraine, is that a law was passed in Washington. There is a law against murder, people still get and do commit murder. There is a law against shoplifting people still shoplift to a degree, that can really be described as wholescale looting.
You can have any amount of laws written down on paper, but if no one has the capability or inclination to enforce the law, the text is worthless.
Then one can only smile at the thought of the Biden administration, probably the most corrupt President of the USA ever, stamping out graft and corruption.
Supposed Ukrainian corruption justifies what Russia is doing? What Russia’s goals were, which amounted to an economic rape and pillage of Ukraine? Did you pay attention to the document dump wherein the Russian plans for appropriation were laid out, or what they did in Donetsk and Luhansk, already? Which, BTW, included appropriating property from ethnic Russians?
The corruption thing is a red herring; Ukraine was fighting it, and I’d wager a large part of the reason Russia was invading in the first place had rather more to do with Putin’s buddies like Medvedchuk getting screwed by those measures than anything else.
Modern Russia has to be analyzed as another pirate nation like Nazi Germany… They’re like a shark, and if they quit appropriating other people’s property, they die. Putin has to keep handing out rewards, and bringing in the gelt, just like Nazi Germany. WWII began when it did largely because Hitler ran out of appropriated Jewish resources to hand out as largesse; Putin was running out of stuff he could use as bribes to his loyalists and the Russian people. I’d wager that Pregozin died (or, at least, appeared to…) because he was too expensive to keep on the books, and he’d used up his credit line.
All these regimes have economic reasons at the base for what they do. That’s how these things work… Ideologic zealots aren’t good at managing things, and they run out of money fast. So, they go adventuring over the border, and that’s how we get war. Watch what happens with Xi in China when the money runs out…
APL: “I think you may have forgotten previous discussions on Samizdata, I’m not exactly well disposed to Islam or its adherents.”
No, I got it. Sorry if it was unclear. The Pals raped and killed (and killed and killed) in response to some loud praying outside a mosque. Quite a contrast in reasonableness of actions.
I think I have over the years made it quite clear that I’m an advocate of strong borders, mainly to keep undesirables out. I have complained bitterly that the British government should take a stricter view of who is eligible to reside in and call themselves a citizen of, this, ( what used to be ) my country. I don’t think successive British governments have done that job to any degree, whatsoever.
Others on Samizdata, take no head of the failure of multiculturalism, and call for more and more immigrants, for some reason at one point they had a ‘hard on for Hong Kong’, but that fad seems to have faded away. I disagree with those who so advocate.
Having said all that, and despite the fact that I could point to no end of comments where I have objected to permissive border control and indiscriminate, unrestricted immigration. You appear to have drawn the conclusion that I approve of the rape and murder of one or more carefree young women within the borders of Israel.
I’ll take this opportunity to correct you. No I do not. I do think rather than trying to, I don’t know, ‘straw man’ me about it on the internet, you should ask the Israeli government why it failed so catastrophically to defend the border of its own country.
It is after all, one of the few duties Libertarians expect of their government.
Failing to defend borders, seems to be a popular thing: the Americans practice the policy on their southern border, Britain pursues it as a policy, and now the Israeli government seems to have adopted it as National policy too.
As a policy, it is an utter failure. So, why governments still continue to practice open borders as policy, is anyone’s guess.
The electricity and water supplies have finally been turned off.
Perhaps as many as 900 “infidel” deaths (the 130 hostages must, for the purposes of military operations, be assumed to be dead – and this is very much a “do not let them take me alive” situation, given how Jews taken alive will be treated) seem to have finally concentrated the minds of the elected government of Israel – and got them to overrule the officials and “experts”.
If the judges intervene (on “humanitarian” or “human rights” grounds) I suggest that the judges be sent in themselves – no doubt their “liberalism” will mean they will be treated with great kindness (although the hundreds of young people at the peace concert were not).
However, there are still deeply disturbing practices – for example the “warning shots” nonsense seems to be carrying on, I watched (via the wonders of modern technology) the Israeli Navy “shell” the Port complex at Gaza – but they did not destroy the port (they may have done since – but not when I was watching) they just fired a few shells into the water – rather than blowing the port up with fuel-air munitions.
The enemy does not hold with the concept of warning shots or warnings in general (and why should they hold with the concept – it is an absurd concept) – they just assumed the Israelis were missing (that the ships could not shoot straight) and laughed. It is much the same when the IDF warn they are about to blow up a building – the enemy, logically enough, leave the building – laughing at the stupidity of the Jews for warning them. The Islamic forces, in line with military logic, concentrate their attention on their fighters – these are evacuated first, women and children (being of far less importance to them) will be evacuated afterwards, if at all.
The Gaza Salient (“Strip”) must be removed. If officers do not want to do the job – they should be removed. The Islamic population should be allowed to peacefully relocate to Egypt and other nations in the Islamic world.
Does Israel have the will to do what needs to be done? I do not know – I just do not know.
Alisa – an interesting article from American Thinker.
Short and to the point – thank you for posting a link to it.
@Kirk,
As a Battletech fan, I’ve always loved this quote from one of the major characters:
@The Wobbly Guy,
It’s a truth, I fear. War isn’t a thing of nuance and restraint; tit-for-tat. The idiots running this country during Vietnam thought so, but… Nope. Same with the current lot of educated-yet-idiot types that think they’re smarter than everyone else in the room.
My rule of thumb is that if I look around and think I’m the smartest guy there? I’m almost certainly not, and I need to keep my mouth shut. Creatures like Biden and Obama have never, ever had that insight into things, and keep screwing up by the numbers because they’re convinced that they’re smarter than everyone else. Note the losers both jackasses hired in their administrations; mediocrities, all.
If you think you’re smart? You usually… Aren’t. Every bona fide genius I’ve ever met thought that they were dummies.
Which is something to think about.
@Paul Marks,
The points you raise are exactly why I have said that the Israelis are too civilized to survive this. You don’t make war the way they are.
On the other hand, it ain’t like the Arabs care about their non-combatants, either. The Israelis are almost certainly doing this sort of thing mostly for the peace-of-mind of their soldiers, and the international media. Demonstrating mercy to an Arab is, from their observed behavior, an utter waste of time.
The way this ends is that either the Israelis get their medieval on, or they get wiped out, eventually. Nothing else works.
You have. I was agreeing with you. Read it how you will, though.
Kirk – we shall have to see.
I note that nearly every Israeli the international media (including GB News) has on has a SCRIPT.
“The far right government”, “engaged in a constitutional coup against the rule of law” (they mean the leftist unelected judges – who enforce an Israeli Constitution that does-not-exist, no Israeli Constitution was ever written, so the judges enforce their own whims – or rather those of the International Community).
And, the key line of the SCRIPT – “they must be a government of national unity”.
That is all they are talking about – winning the war is of no importance to them at all.
You absolute and total bastards – the dead are not even cold and you are using them for your political ends, to you Hamas, and the forces of Islam generally, are still not important – all you want to do is get rid of democracy (“smash the right”) and get yourselves, the Deep State, back in total power.
These servants of the International Community are almost beyond comprehension.
It almost makes one suspect that the Deep State knew what was coming, but kept the information to themselves – so they could use the bodies of murdered children to get themselves back in total power.
By the way – has the water supply to the Gaza Salient been cut off or not?
I heard the Israeli Defence Minister give the order, on live television – but has that order been carried out?
The international media are talking about a cut off of electrical power – but they not mentioning a cut off of water supplies.
Like the “bombardment of the port of Gaza” (which did not seem to hit anything – at least not when I was watching, hopefully that has changed) it is no good giving an order to cut off the water supply if that order is not obeyed.
Almost a thousand Israelis have been murdered – if the establishment (the servants of the International Community) are still sabotaging things, it would not be good.
I repeat, has the water supply been cut off or not?
Trump, the supposed madman no-nothing lunatic, despite his flaws, improved middle eastern relations, improved relations with North Korea and Russia, and while he (rightly) played hardball with China on economic issues, few were talking like war between China and the US was a major likely possibility.
This is where I stopped reading McArdle. In his first campaign, she said Trump was going to lead to nuclear war. I’d have thought the Abraham Accord would have reduced that possibility. But no, she doubled down on stupid and went full BAMN for the second campaign. Too bad, she was a regular read for a long time.
This may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever watched :/
The international media are now saying that the water supply to the Gaza Salient (look at a map – it is a salient and a clearly unacceptable one) has been cut off.
If, IF, that is true – then the civilian population, which is vastly bigger now than it was in 1967, will have to leave – via Egypt, which has a border with the area.
But we shall have to see if these reports are true.
David Levi: “This may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever watched :/ ”
OK, if you’re not into numerology, I can see why you might take that stance.
It was the first two minutes, of Rafi’s presentation, I considered relevant this context.
Here we go ..
Egypt claims it warned Israel days before the Hamas attack.
This was ‘Israel’s Pearl harbour‘ – Rhetoric calculated to engage American’s sympathy. The only way this attack might have resembled Pearl Harbour attack is that the US probably knew of that in advance, too.
Egypt did not warn Israel of the impending attack.
No, that was a joke, Egypt did warn Israel of the probability of a terrorist attack.
A false flag then.
Can you imagine the furore if this had happened in New York ?? How much airtime would that have received then ? I think we know.
Note the strapline – “Residential block collapses after Israeli attack”, those blocks just collapsed, the attack was incidental. “It was not immediately clear if there were casualties.” translates to “We’re happy to target civilians in the West Bank”.
A full siege and blockade is understandable, but if a million starving Gazans mass on the border then no amount of artillery, tanks, and fighter jets is going to stop a complete overrun of southern Israel.
We can only hope the Gazans are finally resettled by their merciful “brothers” in faith somewhere in the vast and fruitful lands of Dar-al-Islam, which runs roughly from Morocco to Malaysia. As should have happened after those merciful followers expelled a million Jews in the aftermath of WW2. A straight population swap, which was managed successfully in Europe, would have made a lot of sense. It still would.
This really is the stupidest things I’ve ever watched. That you take this seriously means I can just skip over your comments in future.
You could always do that David. You telling me, leads me to think, you think I should give a damn. I don’t.
A false flag by who? You means it wasn’t Hamas, who have gleefully taken responsibility for the assault?
Apartment blocks getting hit? That happens every few weeks in Ukraine with remarkably little uproar around the world. And unlike when Ukraine strikes Russian targets, civilian losses are not collateral damage, they’re the intended targets, much like Hamas has intentionally targeted Israeli civilians. Russia has erased entire cities since 2022.