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Samizdata quote of the day – Is Trump going to do a Putin? I know he trash-talks. I know that much of what he says is aimed at his base, so it should be taken with a pinch of salt, but this is bizarre. Greenland is not part of the United States and has no desire to be. If the USA wants to enter into trade talks that give them mineral rights or even defensive bases, then fine. But talk of taking it is no different to what is going on in Ukraine – a bigger, hostile neighbour taking by force. In reality, they could do it. Greenland could not withstand an invasion, and despite its tough talk, Denmark would be unable to offer much assistance. Denmark, like the rest of Europe, is weak defensively, and the US administration knows it. Despite the trash-talking, I really don’t think he would go that far.
Would he?
As I say, what the Hell is going on here?
– Longrider
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The chance of the US invading Greenland for the purposes of annexation are zero.
It would cause way too many internal divisions in Trump’s support. The military especially would likely refuse to obey. I know I would refuse a similar instruction. Congress would instantly swing against him — unlike Putin, he doesn’t control 90% of the seats.
The US has put up with Cuba on its doorstep for decades. That is a considerably more inviting target.
Just speculating, but my best bet is that the logic of wanting to take over Greenland is analogous to the logic of telling the Germans, back in Trump’s 1st term, that they should not rely on the US on defense while doing business with Russia.
In other words, Trump does not want the Danes to rely on the US for defense of Greenland, while selling mineral rights to China. That problem could be solved without annexing Greenland.
I admit that the optics are very bad. Trump should go on a charm offensive with the Greenlanders, even more than with the Danes. Perhaps tell the former how happy their fellow Inuits/Eskimos are in Alaska.
But what do i know? I did not write The Art of the Deal.
Trump is about the deal. He could have Greenland by simply offering every Greenlander American citizenship and half a million dollars each along with promises abour protecting their language and culture. Alaskans already get money direct from the feds. For that, 70% at least of the Greenlanders would vote for both independence and anexation. And I’m sure Trump could get all of that done with limited congressional help. All that would cost a quarter of what we sent to Ukraine, and not a shot would be fired.
Trump knows all of this, and this whole thing is about the deal, as is everything with Trump.
Fwiw, I’m not convinced the US will annex Greenland. I think it’ll actually be stronger military presence and mineral deals. But it certainly could be done if they wanted to and the Danes could do nothing about it.
The 2nd Marine Division will be invading Greenland by June
TDS has spread across the pond even to usually sensible folk, it is sad
My son’s old Boy Scout troop of 250 kids could take Greenland in a weekend and build eagle projects in their spare time.
Other than that I could not imagine an actual invasion.
Trump is a non-politician because he allows himself to get into situations in which people can offer non-nonsensical explanations that make him look very bad.
Most real “politicians” would kill their own kids before saying some of the things Trump says.
I will vote for Trump again, any time he needs a vote.
Just a reminder that the UK invaded Iceland in May 1940, to forestall the Jerries.
Trump would do likewise to Greenland if there was any danger of a Chinese occupation. Otherwise not.
bobby : Most real “politicians” would kill their own kids before saying some of the things Trump says.
True, but they’d greatly prefer to kill yours instead.
I agree with the commenters who have already suggested that it’s just noise and there is no chance of the United States actually seizing Greenland by force. But it’s also worth remembering that the fact that so many European nations use American military equipment also gives them leverage to use against the US if needed. Using it means access to its secrets, and if push comes to shove then Denmark could threaten to sell an F-35 to China. Multiply that across the whole of Europe and it’s a serious FAFO.
No President Trump is not going to invade Greenland.
Sadly many, otherwise intelligent, people become silly when talking or writing about President Trump – indeed there is a name for this condition “Trump Derangement Syndrome” (TDS) – although it may simply be the bad practice of listening or watching the “mainstream media” which edits what President Trump says.
Most Americans have learned to ignore the “mainstream media” – but I have noticed that some (some) British conservatives still take it seriously. This is odd – as British “right wingers” have learned to never trust the media on domestic policy matters – yet they still trust the media on foreign policy matters.
As for Denmark – it does seem to be dealing with the real threat to its national security, which is not President Trump (who is the only safeguard against Russia and CHINA – although demented people do not understand this).
It could be argued (although one should be careful not to formally endorse the argument – as this can lead to PUNISHMENT) that the real threat to Denmark, and to other Western nation-states, is internal – the rise of the non European populations (allegedly some 70% of the young children in Brussels, the “capital of Europe”, are now non European – and this is not an isolated example), and the Social Democratic government (yes a government of the moderate left) is trying to prevent the fall of Denmark (as some might put it) – which neither the British Conservatives in office (“in Office, but not in POWER”) or Reform in opposition have really tried to do in the case of the United Kingdom (as Rupert Lowe and many other ex members of Reform are now explaining).
What was presented in the 1960s as acceptance of (and welcome for) a few new people of different backgrounds, a GOOD thing, has become something very different.
It is perfectly acceptable in Britain to talk about threats to Kiev (hundreds of miles away) – or even to talk about Greenland (ignoring the real threat to Greenland, which is the People’s Republic of China, and pretending that President Trump is the threat) – but to talk about the take over of British towns and cities can land people in prison in the United Kingdom.
Talk of Trump Derangement Syndrome is pure deflection. When explicitly asked if military options were off the table, Vance said whatever means were needed would be used but there was only one acceptable outcome, namely US control of Greenland.
You people talking of TDS sound like the people in early 2022 who said Putin would not attack Ukraine after a decade of Putin saying one way or another Ukraine must be controlled from Moscow. When people tell you military options are being considered, believe them.
That does not mean I think Greenland is certain to be occupied by US given the likely political cost, but anyone who claims there is zero probability is most unwise. Trump being Trump, I would have thought throwing money at Greenland’s population would make more sense, but also Trump being Trump, permanently altering the perception of former allies into regarding US as a potential military threat is no big deal I guess.
Also, if I was Canada, aka the 51st state, I would be adjusting my defence spending quite drastically, buying less high priced jets & ships, because you can buy *really* a lot of off-route mines & manpads for the price of each one.
Andrew,
Re leverage surely the FAFO implication would be the consequences to Denmark or anywhere else in Europe who sold an F-35 to China (on the assumption there’s anything about it they don’t already know).
Anyway my firm belief is that Denmark and JD’s photo op visit is all yet another case of Trump waving a rattle at a baby (a.k.a. the worlds media and most of its governments) to distract it while his real focus is elsewhere – see also “Governor Trudeau and the 51st state” although in that case there was more than a little trolling involved and all the more amusing for it.
One thing being a threat does not change the fact that some other other is also a threat. So sure, by all means talk about the take over of British towns and cities by Islamists, just don’t do it on this thread which is about something completely different.
In the (hopefully unlikely) event USA simply attacked Danish territory & annexed Greenland by force, I think you are looking at the FAFO factor from the wrong direction.
@Perry
The deflection works hard, but the actual syndrome should perhaps be called ‘the End of the Gravy Train Syndrome’ but that cuts too close to the bone for those benefitting from the Establishment.
What it DJT up to?
In more “martial” parlance; he is “counting the enemies’ “guns”; and “drawing the crabs” to do so..
Cross-reference the various “reactions” and sort the frivolous from the serious. As each presidential utterance is “creatively” interpreted, it makes it easier to work out the whole LSM circus, including who are the “ring-masters” and who re the clowns.
Strange that Trump didn’t say “I’ll buy Greenland”. That would be more in character with Trump and with the US. After all the US did “buy” Louisiana and Alaska.
But the Europeans (and the Danes) expect Trump (the US) to defend Greenland from Russian or Chinese threats at no cost to them.
“TDS has spread across the pond even to usually sensible folk…”
In this situation, regarding Greenland and Canada, an erratic “mastermind” of a president has only himself to blame with his bombastic stream-of-consciousness pronouncements.
Perhaps the TDS popping up here is of a different variety entirely where that D now means Deflection i.e., engaging in a endless round of apologetics for the erratic blowhard now entrenched in the Oval Office.
Israel sold US military technology to China before.
The fact that Israel is still the number one American aid recipient suggests to me Israel got away with little more than a slap on the wrist.
Admittedly USA-Israel is the real ‘special relationship’, so perhaps someone like Denmark would be treated much more harshly.
I have no idea what is going on with this US-Greenland thing and think it is unwise at present to get too animated about it, at least publicly. I have long believed it would be best for both involved for Britain to move away from dependence on America and so I probably don’t feel the kind of outrage that many self-styled ‘Atlanticists’ or ‘special relationship’ simps currently seem to feel. It doesn’t surprise me though that America may be making threatening noises towards Greenland. America is a superpower and while it may be a relatively unique imperial power, it still is an imperial power. The US invaded Grenada in 1983 despite Grenada retaining the British monarch as head of state and gave Thatcher just 12 hours notice regarding the invasion. Yes the local government in Grenada was suspiciously close to Cuba and Grenada wasn’t annexed by the US, but it showed America will do as America pleases when push comes to shove, even if it humiliated a very close ally. And what did Thatcher do except protest? There was not much else she could do.
I do wish Trump would STFU about Canada becoming the 51st state. He seems to have handed election victory to Mark Carney’s WEF government. Not good policy at all. Added to which, if Canada did become part of the USA there would never be another Republican president. Make it make sense.
I read somewhere that Trump is REALLY interested in the Arctic, and future trade routes. If the Arctic ice keeps diminishing, then northern sea trade becomes viable. Trump doesn’t want Russia to be the only major northern sea power. Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Norway and Russia all share the Arctic Ocean. Hence Trump’s concern about Canada and Greenland.
For those who are alluding to it, I do not suffer from TDS. Not even remotely. I am commenting on and criticising his behaviour and rhetoric (along with Vance’s, while we are at it). You can be critical of something someone says or does without being deranged. FFS!
Trump is merely getting the troops thinking about arctic warfare. He’s actually planning to invade Antarctica.
@JohnK
I do wish Trump would STFU about Canada becoming the 51st state. He seems to have handed election victory to Mark Carney’s WEF government. Not good policy at all. Added to which, if Canada did become part of the USA there would never be another Republican president. Make it make sense.
Canada will never become a part of the United States (a fact that would be REALLY surprising to Thomas Jefferson.) However, what is possible is that Canada would break up and some provinces, Alberta in particular, would become part of the USA. There is quite a large political movement in Alberta to split off. Alberta has gigantic reserves of oil, perhaps 2/3 of what is in Saudi Arabia, though it is difficult to extract. And it is also a very conservative place. It is the most American of all the provinces, and I’m sure they’d be happy to stop learning French, and, more importantly, stop propping up Quebec. Adding Alberta as the 51st state would be a pretty positive step forth USA long term. Quebec has a very strong desire to split off, though is probably too poor to do so, and the Atlantic provinces are deeply resentful of Ontario, it is worth remembering that Newfoundland only joined Canada about seventy years ago. So it just seems to me that Canada falling apart and the US picking over the bones is far more likely than it joining as a whole. Especially since Canadian identity is mostly grounded on the idea “we aren’t Yanks”. Though, FWIW, I don’t think Canada will break up.
Trump’s goal is Canada and his rhetorical pressure is just about fixing bad trade deals, fixing Canada’s dreadful contribution to NATO and securing the northern border. As always, Trump it is about the deal. It is about staking out an extreme position that he can come down from to get what he wants.
Ellen,
“I spoke to those penguins – great guys, great guys and I had this deal worked out, this beautiful deal, but all they wanted was pilchards so we’re sending in the Marines. Hey, what does penguin taste like? Can we get their eggs? We need eggs right now and in return we can Make Antarctica Great Again!”
Thread winner
“Talk of Trump Derangement Syndrome is pure deflection” – no it is not. Although I should have added “Vance Derangement Syndrome” as well. Much of the same method – edit what the man says, leaving out his respect for the self determination of the Greenlanders, and use the words that are left.
As for the real threat to Western nations – which Denmark has tried to something about. It is possible that it is NOT a deliberate plan by the international establishment elite, NOT a conscious aim of extermination-genocide with censorship of any dissent against the plan, but, on the contrary, a series of chance events, just happenstance, that has led to the collapse of Western fertility levels, many women rejecting motherhood and many men finding that their sperm count and testosterone levels are low (that they are not the men their fathers were) – and, at the same time, the mass migration and natural increase of non European groups. Chance events do happen – not everything is a plan.
For example, the Minoan Civilisation was crippled (crippled not destroyed – the final end came later) by volcanic eruption – no one planned the volcano going off, it just happened.
It could be that Western cultures, peoples, such as the British, have just come to the end of the road – that no one planned this, it just is the end of the road.
But I am struck, for example, by the difference between Nigel Farage and J.D. Vance – Mr Farage made a speech in Birmingham (in Birmingham – of all places, has he walked the streets a few minutes from that conference hall?) listing all the things that did-not-matter to him – religion and so on, nothing mattered to him, he did not care about it, it was not important (again – he said this in Birmingham, of all places, as if he has no knowledge of how that city has been utterly transformed, which a certain Professor of Greek and later British Army Brigadier, warned against as long ago as the 1960s). I can understand someone making such a speech in Prague, which has not seen such a radical demographic change, but to make such a speech in Birmingham…..
Turning to Vice President Vance.
J.D. Vance, imperfect person though he is (there are no perfect people) has no problem listing what does matter to him – what he cares about. He does not make speeches listing just about everything – and then saying he does not care about it.
The American people may still perish, indeed they probably will perish (peoples, cultures, rise and fall in this vicious world), but he cares about his people – he does not want the American people to perish.
And, no, it is NOT a matter of biological race (remember who his wife is) – but it is not “nothing” “I do not care about it” either.
Various people who were later forced out by GB News (the one right of center television station in the United Kingdom) have said that their great mistake was not standing up for Mark Steyn when he was betrayed, and he was betrayed – viciously betrayed. They were too concerned about their own position to stand up for Mark Steyn – but the forces behind the scenes came for them anyway, once it had been established that the “free speech channel” was no such thing.
I say this because I was about to attack Mr Farage for doing nothing to help Mark Steyn – but then I remembered that everyone betrayed Mark Steyn (waiting till he had two heart attacks – and so could not put up the sort of defense he once could have), so it would be unfair to single out Mr Farage for what everyone was guilty of.
What shits we human beings, very much including myself, are at times.
Paul,
Dare I suggest you are going way off topic here? You raise important points but not, in the context, relevant ones.
@Longrider
For those who are alluding to it, I do not suffer from TDS. Not even remotely. I am commenting on and criticising his behaviour and rhetoric (along with Vance’s, while we are at it). You can be critical of something someone says or does without being deranged. FFS!
Unfortunately in our politics you are either a MAGA lover or a MAGA hater, subtle distinctions are not allowed since it is not a policy discussion but a loyalty test. FWIW, I have never really been a fan of Trump, not his personal qualities, not his style, not his rhetoric, not his personal values. But his policies and actions have utterly flabbergasted me. I never thought I’d live to see the day when whole government departments, especially something like the DoE were being shut down. I never thought peace in the middle east was possible, but I think that Trump may well succeed where Presidents have failed since Carter. I have also heard from Trump a plan to actually pay off the national debt in a reasonable time, and that is entirely novel to me; I have NEVER heard a plan that actually had some reasonable chance of success from literally anyone, until Trump articulated one. And, fundamentally, the reason America is on the verge of utter collapse is directly related to the national debt.
Trump does a few things that worry me, particularly in regards to this Alien Enemies Act and bit of an animus toward free speech, and the impeaching judges threat is just plain frightening. Not that I’m opposed to throwing these people out of the country, just that they surely need SOME due process. And what possible legal justification is there if they have not been actually convicted of a serious crime to whisk them off to a jail in El Salvador? One has to remember that the powers Trump takes for himself will one day be used by a Gavin Newsom, or a Joe Biden. And that should scare the crap out of all of us. Imagine the J6s in jail in El Salvador.
So Trump and I do not really share the same philosophy, he is most certainly not a libertarian, but the reality on the ground is that he (and Elon) are actually making very good changes, irrespective of the underlying philosophy, and that I celebrate. As to the specifics of Greenland, see my comments above.
That bit is great. What is not so great is sending messages to former allies that France was correct & they need to adopt Tous Azimuts policies that will one day work to US disadvantage. Also my fear is the lunatic things Trump is doing will discredit the good things he is doing. Poland *really* needs to acquire nuclear weapons (perhaps via a consortium of European nations), as do South Korea & Japan.
Trump probably got the ghastly Mark Carney elected, and if I was Carney, I’d be reorganising Canadian defence policies towards insurgency by cancelling expensive aircraft & ships & buying huge numbers of off-route mines & manpads.
@Fraser Orr, I’m similar. I don’t like his style over much. I do approve of DOGE and want one on this side of the pond. I also get irritated when people refer to him as a warmonger when the evidence points to the opposite. I regard his not being a politician an asset, as we need fewer professional politicians. I quote my late wife upon witnessing the outcome of the 2016 election. “Oh, this will be fun. He’ll be kicking over some anthills.” Unfortunately, she didn’t live long enough to see it.
All that said, MAGA can be positively hysterical over some issues – Ukraine being one such. I can call them out when I feel they are wrong without suffering TDS. But then, I see the world in nuanced shades, and sometimes my enemies get it right and my friends get it wrong.
Harry Truman tried to buy Greenland after WW2. It did not work out, for reasons that the linked article explains.
What Perry says: Also my fear is the lunatic things Trump is doing will discredit the good things he is doing.
This is absolutely part of it. Ending DEI in schools and shutting certain government agencies? Yessir! Taking off the constraints on fracking? Bring it on! Deregulating the economy where possible? 100%!
But….the damage being done by all this stuff about Greenland, being an arse towards Canada, the tariffs, the verbal bullying of Zelensky, Denmark, Japan, etc.
Another problem, which is more stylistic than substantive, but then politics is often about persuasion, rhetoric and tone: So much of this administration is full of anger. Trump comes across as angry; JD Vance looks as if he wants to punch everyone. RFK looks as if he is so wired that you think something crazy is going to happen. These don’t seem very calm or well adjusted people. And it hurts whatever message they are trying to convey. There is no humour, no piercing wit. There’s already exhaustion setting in.
Stock markets are down again, big time, today (Monday, 31 March). At what point will all those who voted GOP on a sort of “He cannot be worse than cackling Kamala” begin to get restless? And they won’t be suffering from TDS, as the MAGA crowd robotically put it when confronted with libertarians and small-c conservatives who dare to criticise their man’s policies. It will be TES – Trump Exhaustion Syndrome.
I remember the late P J O’Rourke explain why he voted for Hilary Clinton rather than Trump. She was evil, and he was evil, but at least she was evil within known parameters.
i hadn’t known that P J O’Rourke was such a dick.
He wasn’t.
O’Rourke saw him as a menace.
“the erratic blowhard now entrenched in the Oval Office.”
That is a good definition. And he is fun.
It is so refreshing to have Trump in there instead of the usual dumb, corrupt, dull socialists.
As Johnathan Pearce correctly points out, the US has been very interested in acquiring Greenland for almost 80 years.
But acquiring Greenland has been, on and off again, a goal of the US State Department for over a century and half, starting with William H. Seward in 1867. Seward, by the way, is the guy who bought Alaska from Russia.
This isn’t some cockeyed fever dream of Trump’s. Like moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, long promised by many Presidents, he’s reviving and putting in to operation some old ideas.
My estimation of PJ ORourke has fallen dramatically now that I know he voted for Hillary over Trump.
I see some folks are literally nagging about Trump’s tone. Yikes.
Not bothered at all by that, my problem is the administration making it clear military action against Denmark is not beyond the pale.
Even if that is only posturing, it means Europe & other former allies have to literally tool up not just to defend themselves against China or Russia but also the USA.
Telling Europe that US taxpayer will not pay for their defence? Good for Trump, why the hell should they? Telling a European nation that sent troops to fight & die in America’s war in Afghanistan that taking Greenland by force is an option? Ok, that really does change the calculus. Suddenly there is an undercurrent in European musing (admittedly on the fringe) that maybe the best way to defend against Russia now that the alliance with the USA is no longer credible, is encouraging China to give Russia something truly terrifying to ponder & re-evaluating the Europe-China relationship. That was unthinkable a few months ago.
@Perry. Exactly. I agree with Trump on the subject of NATO countries pulling their weight, but pissing off allies to the point of threatening invasion against a friendly neighbour? FFS!
I’m ok with Trump administration being motivated by anger but most of it would be better to be internally targeted against the democrats, the deep state, Wall Street, Big Pharma, Ivy League universities, Hollywood/Media etc than at foreign countries.
I mean Trump said he’d put Hillary in jail but never did. Republicans talk a good game about wrecking the democrats and their allies but fail to deliver. Not a new thing – Reagan said he’d end big government but government got bigger under his presidency.
While a lot of American complaints about allies freeloading are valid, in some cases at least Trump and co may be wise to look at and rage against American decisions that brought this about. Japan is a good example – the reason why Japanese defence spending is about 1pc GDP is because of the peace treaties the US imposed on Japan after WW2. If Japan were to rip up these treaties to mass rearm, would America interpret that as an unfriendly move?
First time I remember seeing Europe seriously talk about tooling up at all.
So, Europe admires what France just did to Le Pen? What Romania did to Georgescu? What the USA Democrats tried to do to Trump? You like the basic strength that such things prove?
I think y’all have embarked on a journey you need to take without the USA.
And if this is all it takes for Europe to change its dependency over to China, then we’re better off having found this out now.
No I don’t like what’s happening to Le Pen*, Georgescu and what they tried to do to Trump. But I wish the right had the balls to throw some left-liberals in prison as retaliation. Hence why I brought up Trump saying he would jail Hillary but then did nothing.
*In fact, I was sympathetic to Le Pen when the fashionable thing was for US democrats and republicans to denounce the Le Pen family as Nazis.
Agree.
The main problem with Trump is that he is too timid and too moderate.
Shlomo: My estimation of PJ ORourke has fallen dramatically now that I know he voted for Hillary over Trump
I am surprised you hadn’t realised that he was not a fan of Mr Trump. O’Rourke (RIP) was a small-government conservative, a “Republican Party Reptile”. He wrote a remarkably good book on economics – and you won’t be surprised to learn, was not a fan of “vast tariffs” and all that sort of thing. He used satire to debunk the madness of big government, tax and regulation. He was talking about the foolishness of the State when Elon Musk was still a kid in South Africa.
Parliament of Whores ought to be on the reading list of anyone interested in current affairs.
But I wish the right had the balls to throw some left-liberals in prison as retaliation
Throwing people in jail just because you dislike their views shows how crazy things have become. Too wrongs don’t make a right. I learned that in Sunday School.
I used to be sympathetic to the idea that it was bad to set such precedents but the left have set all the precedents now. So now politics has been turned into war by other means by the left, the only way to deal with left-wing lawfare is to retaliate heavily in kind when the opportunity arises. So Trump should make an example of Hillary, Biden, Pelosi, the previous CIA and FBI bosses etc.
Likewise if the RN eventually take power in Paris they should seek to retaliate against Macron and the other regime parties at the soonest opportunity and dog their lives with corruption trials.
Vast crimes have been committed by the Left within the USA on very large scale. Prosecuting a few of these criminals and putting them in prison is justice. Plain and simple justice.
Shlomo: vast crimes have been committed by the Left within the USA on very large scale. Prosecuting a few of these criminals and putting them in prison is justice. Plain and simple justice.
Why just a “few” of them? There will need to be a lot of trials, lots of juries to select (which would be darkly hilarious, given the difficulties of achieving fairness).
This is the problem with comments such as yours. You are unhappy that real/alleged bad people held power and did things you dislike. We can even agree on common ground about some of this. But I worry about the health of the last great free Republic on earth, and it would be a cycle without end, as a new government and change in Congress would lead to the switch being put into reverse, with more jailings, harassments, etc. What would be left?
You’re as mad as a hatter.
You’re advocating appeasement.
The left can surrender. They can just surrender if they want it to end.
The word you are missing is illegal. They did ILLEGAL things. Illegal, meaning against the law.
I think the best way to deal with this new lawfare impulse is to do what Trump did.
Win.
I think the lawfare against him helped him immensely. I also think that National Rally is going to improve its support as a result of the lawfare against Le Pen. (I don’t know enough about Romania to guess the effect there.)
It doesn’t need to be many. When Charles II became king in 1660, the Act of indemnity and oblivion pardoned almost everyone who had been a roundhead previously. However, the regicides who murdered his father were (rightly) made an example of.
There was so much bullshit by the democrats with BLM, Covid, and the whole Biden and Obama presidencies that there will be some who could easily proven guilty of crimes and they should be jailed.
Necessary but insufficient. It’s one battle won, but more need to be won.
Martin did a good job of answering your question.
Bobby, it very much remains to be seen if that is how this shakes out. But if that did happen, it would be because certain nations feel they’re not being given any other option by the USA. Only way I could see that *actually* happening would be a literal US pivot to Russia over Europe, or actually attacking Danish territory or Canada. I don’t think those are likely to happen, but I no longer think it is impossible.
IIRC, her father kinda WAS an antisemitic boor. No, we weren’t fond of that.
For those who do not know….
The man from Birmingham, John Enoch Powell, slept on the floor of railway stations in India in the 1940s rather than stay in European only clubs. And he was one of only a handful of Members of Parliament to complain about the treatment of prisoners suspected of being Mau-Mau in Kenya in the 1950s.
That this honourable man is so smeared in modern Britain shows all one needs to know about the modern British establishment.
Paul Marks: holy non sequitur batman
That just goes to show what a ####-head PJ O’Rourke was.
He obviously had no understanding of the concept of freedom from arbitrary power; otherwise, he would have realized (as i realized when HRC was exonerated by the FBI) that HRC was above the Law, and therefore what freedom PJ had back in 2016, would have further decreased, had she won.
Once Trump got the Republican nomination, he was no longer above the Law; and Trump 47 has finally begun to clean out the slime that PJ O’Rourke did not mind ruling over him.
https://open.substack.com/pub/taibbi/p/biden-lied-about-everything-including
Snorri, what a foolish comment this is from you:
First of all, O’Rourke did not have the benefit of hindsight, and know how exactly certain court cases or legal actions would have played out. Further, you just assume that HC’s exoneration by the FBI was totally unjustified, that she was as guilty as hell, etc. Also, the idea that once Trump was elected the idea that he was “no longer above the law” is bizarre. In fact, much of the current behavior he is exhibiting shows how he seems to want to punish anyone whom he thinks, rightly or wrongly, has gone after him in the past, such as over Jan 6.
I think, when re-reading O’Rourke’s books about the venality and unpleasantness of modern politics, that he’d take a thoroughly jaundiced view of much of what is going on today, and I doubt he’d buy much of the MAGA agenda, or indeed what is coming out of the crazies on the Democrat side. He’d feel out of sorts with the temper of the time.
Alas, we will not know for sure because he’s dead.
@Paul Marks:
The man from Birmingham, John Enoch Powell, slept on the floor of railway stations in India in the 1940s rather than stay in European only clubs. And he was one of only a handful of Members of Parliament to complain about the treatment of prisoners suspected of being Mau-Mau in Kenya in the 1950s.
Enoch Powell was in a different class to most of the knaves and fools in UK politics today. I met him about 35 years ago at a dinner hosted by the late Sir Roger Scruton. What a marvellous evening that was.
Johnathan:
Given that Comey did state that HRC was guilty but “nobody” would prosecute her under the circumstances, i take the above quote of yours to be evidence of a serious disconnect from reality.
… and this is further evidence, given the experience of Trump 45.
… and a third piece of evidence is your insistence that anybody who takes legal action against the crimes of the Deep State, does so in the absence of any crime.
In spite of evidence to the contrary, and pushback from other commenters.
When I first read this I actually thought it was sarcasm or some kind of joke.
What a disgusting thing to say. The gaslighting from those afflicted with TDS is shameless. I don’t think they are bad people, I think they just live in lala-land. They have no idea what’s even happening and their perception of recent history is simply wrong.
Johnathan Pearce – yes indeed, I also met Enoch Powell.
Once very late in his life – at the Institute of Economic Affairs in London, the Parkinson’s Disease was taking its toll, so he answered questions a bit after they were asked – it took time for him to process and respond to what was being said, but he was still himself.
The previous occasion was in Birmingham – I asked him if the government of Margaret Thatcher would have been different (better) if Airey Neave had not been murdered by INLA (so many good people were murdered by the INLA or the IRA).
That got the “high contracting parties” reply that the press made such hay with – I was too dull to notice that there were journalists in the room.
I think what Mr Powell was saying was not that the intelligence services themselves murdered Airey Neave – but that they knew that a murder plot was in the works, and choose not to intervene to stop it.
Given how infiltrated the terrorist groups were, that is possible.
It is very hard to know what is really going on with the intelligence and security services – 40 years ago I strongly disagreed with what Mr Powell said, now I am more agnostic.
I just do not know.
“The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work and then they get elected and prove it.”
– P.J. O’Rourke
I can say that Enoch Powell was 100% correct about that – and it may be even worse than he stated.
And I’m not just saying that because I want another insult to add to my collection of smears, though I do. Not to brag or gloat but here is my current collection: “Crackpot” “Mad hatter” “Kremlin bot” “Wicked” “Kapo” “Pro Hamas” “Pro Ayatollah” “Bad person”
I was too young to have met Enoch Powell, but greatly admire him. Definitely the finest intellect in British politics in the past century. I have always liked that this high-Tory, high church Anglican (while not negating entirely his youthful Nietzscheanism*), extremely well educated and multilingual (12 languages, a mix of ancient and modern) man, with a strong interest in Austrian economics, was the most popular
British MP amongst the working and lower middle classes. When Edward Heath fired him in 1968, it was rank and file members of the docker and meat porter unions who went on strike in support of Powell. Many of my extended older family members from Hull and Leicester, normally Labour voters by default for being proletarians and thus normally contemptuous of run of the mill Tories, wouldn’t hear a bad word said about Enoch Powell.
It doesn’t seem to be on Youtube anymore but Powell, in what I think was the early 1980s, was on the Dick Cavett show alongside Gore Vidal. Powell and Vidal discussing the differences between Britain and America was fascinating, and a million miles above the quality of TV talk shows and political debate today (Vidal, despite his own flaws, was a much superior intellect than any contemporary American democrat).
Here it is Martin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Zfvcb3mWI