If you don’t want WWIII, then you don’t want some thug dictatorship thinking it can invade countries whenever it feels like.
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Samizdata quote of the day – if you don’t want WWIII…March 4th, 2025 |
 31 comments to Samizdata quote of the day – if you don’t want WWIII…Leave a Reply |
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Though lacking a dog in this fight, and skin in this game, I have to say, Perry, that Trumpworld’s sudden reframing of the war is repellent. It’s gross, to hear MAGA thinkers, who should be stalwart friends of freedom and national sovereignty, suddenly sneering that “Zelensky’s for war but Trump is for peace.”That’s such nonsense. Zelensky is for *victory.* Insofar as Trump and Vance advocate for anything here beyond the servility of foreigners, they are objectively in favour of Ukraine’s defeat, and dismemberment.
Fleming’s Chickenhawk talk. If you really wanted to stop this “thug dictatorship” you’d have a force of, say 200,000, NATO soldiers ready to deploy at a moment’s notice.
But you don’t. And we all know the many reasons why. So enough with the brave talk, backed by empty threats.
Let’s just stop the killing, and ease back on the bravado.
Remind me again what did the west do to repel Stalin? In not saying it could have done anything. However, USA did have nuclear weapons before Russia and so could have been in a position to prevent the iron curtain descending. We’ve not solved the many wars of aggression over the decades, either not caring to get involved or realising they are intractable. Why do we think the war in Ukraine is any different. One lesson to learn is having large ethnic enclaves does not make for a harmonious nation. UK went to war with Germany to save Poland. After winning that war Poland was under the soviet jackboot, so not really a win (I know that there are other arguments for going to war with Germany). Is the UK involvement in Ukraine for the UK’s interests or out of a humanitarian compassion? I’m not seeing much of an argument for the first, while I can’t believe it’s much better for the second. The Ukraine war looks like a live action remake of Blackadder Goes Forth.
Are they talking about the United States?
How about several European countries that assisted the US in those invasions?
You’ll notice that Zelensky’s arse doesn’t have a rifle in his hand.
Its easy to demand other sacrifice for your victory – people across the world are demanding Ukrainians keep fighting. But there’s no path to victory. Thus Zelensky isn’t ‘for victory’, its more important to him now to hurt the Russians than protect what’s left of his nation.
I note that Zelenskyy has now sat down with some cooler heads and sent a nice tweet out.
And I bet it makes a difference with Trump. He seems to be all about people bending a knee to the US. Do that, and he gets happy and friendly again. Capricious? Maybe. But maybe effective,too.
Yes Zelensky’s latest Tweet shows that he really is wanting peace, albeit with the minerals deal which might establish American troops in Ukraine as a “tripwire” against Russian forces in future which I personally would not support. I think that big picture there has been a significant shift since the performance on Friday. Basically, the Europeans got together and decided that they are not interested in financing this war against Russia without significant help from USA. As a result, the Europeans changed what they are telling Zelensky to do. Now the Europeans are telling Zelensky to be serious about wanting peace. Good.
The media in the UK and other places in Europe chanting the pro-war hymns are mostly just serving their purpose, which is to keep as strong of a negotiating position as possible for the European negotiations with USA, Ukraine, and Russia. The war will almost certainly be wrapped up sometime this year, as long as Trump sticks to his position.
It is quite interesting that being pro-war is now a left-wing coded position in the USA, while being anti-war is now a right-wing coded position in the USA. I’m not sure if the same holds in Europe – probably not. When I was younger being pro-war was definitely a right-wing coded position in the USA, while being anti-war was a left-wind coded position in USA. I think several different factors led to this sea change and complete reversal. I do give significant credit to Trump, and I would say that this reversal helps confirm Thomas Carlyle’s Great Man Theory.
eb – quite so. The right time for that, in regard to current events, was thirty years ago – that being about the time military projects take to go from “wouldn’t it be nice to have …” to deployed systems – but back then we were busily running things down because of the end of the cold war. So we’re now looking at maybe being able to do something about thug dictatorships again by 2055. Hopefully we’ll still be around by then; and yes, I know, hope isn’t a plan.
You mean surrender & then have the world look away when Russia exterminates Ukraine’s intelligentsia, at least be honest.
Neither did Churchill during World War 2. What an idiotic remark, he is the national leader, and more to the point, has often visited actives fronts within a few hundred metres of the front line. I suspect he has more balls than most of his critics.
There is really nothing stopping the European countries from getting together and saying that they are going to continue to finance Ukraine and support the war until victory against Russia. UK, Italy, France and Germany can produce excellent weaponry and serious armaments in several key areas and what they cannot manufacture themselves they can purchase en masse from the USA. American defense manufacturers can fill orders for basically whatever type of equipment or weapon Ukraine might need that Italy, UK, Germany, and France cannot produce themselves. Trump and the American Military Industrial Complex would love the business and would love to make money off of the war by selling armaments to Europe and Ukraine.
So, the only thing stopping Europe from financing and giving Ukraine the full scope of tools necessary to win this war against Russia is the Europeans themselves. They like to blame the USA, but the truth is there is more than enough money in Europe to buy the weapons and equipment and war materiel to keep Ukraine fighting this war until victory against Russia even if it takes 30 years.
My last comment overlooked something important, which is the highly limited resource of Ukrainian bodies to throw into the meat grinder. Ukraine will inevitably run out of manpower long before Russia does. There are some reports indicating that Ukraine is already experiencing some mild manpower shortages.
When that manpower shortage becomes pressing for Ukraine then… frankly, if Europe was really serious about this war then they could either send their own French, German, Dutch, etc boys into the trenches of Ukraine and/or hire mercenaries from Africa or Asia or South America to fight Russia.
Where there is a will, there is a way. Especially when you are Germany, France, UK, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Netherlands – these are rich and powerful countries, which when cooperating together would function as arguably the most powerful nation on earth
In this we are in complete agreement.
Overthrowing governments, including democratically elected governments, is hardly something that is only done by Mr Putin (although YES he is a thug) – the international establishment (government and corporate) also has no moral problem with it, at least not when they do it.
If the provoking of President Trump does not stop, he may decide to release the files on these matters – although, of course, these files may already have been destroyed.
By the way – intellectuals (an intelligentsia) still have to obey basic logic. If you are a patriot, seeking the independence (self government) of your country – you do not go about waving the flag of a foreign power and seeking to put your nation under that power.
Someone is either a patriot or they are not.
If they are a patriot – they do not support putting their nation under some other power, as a province or “member state”.
For example, a Ukrainian patriot would not go about waving the flag of the Russian Federation and demanding that the Ukraine join that Federation.
Or any other Federation.
Ditto in Hungary, Romania, Georgia, Serbia, Slovakia, or anywhere else.
You have a flag – the flag of your nation, and patriots (by definition) do not support an external power ruling their nation.
But, if faced with either extermination, or allowing an external power to reside in your still-living nation, the patriot might well welcome that external power. Is patriotism something you owe to the land, or to the people? I would vote for “the people.” If you are exterminated, there is no longer a focus for patriotism.
The Ukranian “intelligentsia” that put Hunter Biden on the Board of Burisma? And did the same for the children of Nancy Pelosi and Mitt Romney? The same that made Ukraine the largest donating nation in Europe to the Clinton Foundation despite Ukraine being the poorest nation in Europe? Should I be weeping for them? Sorry, I’m not. They chose to confront Russia, and now they are seeing the folly of their ways.
Are these intelligentsia connected in any way to the intelligentsia of USA, UK or Europe who have saw fit to open the borders to the third world for extraordinary levels of immigration (both legal and illegal) into our countries?? What political ideas have these intelligentsia been pushing inside of Ukraine and/or in the western world in general??
@Fromage du Nord
The Ukranian “intelligentsia” that put Hunter Biden on the Board of Burisma?
FWIW, I find this vitriol against Ukraine disturbing. It is by no means a perfect country, but Russia is far worse, and no matter how bad the “intelligentsia” might be (and the “intelligentsia” are pretty bad in all countries) they certainly don’t deserve to be wiped out which, contextually seems to be what you are saying.
I don’t agree with the “fight on till the last Ukrainian” plan at all. But I think the growing MAGA noise of “Ukraine bad” is quite troubling. Ukrainian soldiers are fighting bravely for their hearth and home and acquitting themselves with honor and dignity. I have mixed feelings about Zelenskyy with respect to his martial law policy, but I think he is an exceptionally brave man, a patriot trying what he thinks is best for his country, trying to navigate the tornadoes of geopolitics with his tiny kite and, as political leaders go, fairly uncorrupt. I felt compassion for him in the Trump meeting even though I think he screwed it up, because he was being used by very bad people.
So people on my side, people who advocate for the Trump plan, can we cool it with this horrible invective, and realize that the Ukrainians are a good people in a very bad situation. I think I have mentioned before I have had friendships with various Ukrainians for years and they are good decent people just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I mentioned before that the past few years I had been working with four young men there, and they all went off to war. I tremble to think what has become of these bright, intelligent, hard working men with their whole lives ahead of them.
I weep for Ukraine, it is why I want to see this thing end as soon as possible.
Fraser – the ordinary people of Ukraine and the “intelligentsia” of Ukraine and the political class of Ukraine are three different things. There may some overlap, particularly between the political class and the intelligentsia, depending on exactly how these terms are defined. Ukraine’s political class been aligned with American Democrats for many years in many different disturbing ways. The American Democrats have destroyed my country and violated the rule of law to politically persecute maga, including by violating due process rights and committing sedition in many organized and systemic ways, including the Russia collusion hoax, the 2020 election theft, Hunter Biden laptop coverup, the January 6 fraud, and many more horrible seditious actions. The Ukrainian political class have been key allies of the Democrats for many years, including through Biden and Hillary
I suspect that whoever comes after Zelensky will not be an ally of the American Democrats because they will have learned that aligning themselves against Trump is not a smart thing to do. Good.
We realize this. We are also allowed to criticize Ukraine’s political leadership for its horribly corrupt actions getting in bed with the Biden Family and the Democrats in myriad corrupt and disgusting ways.
Who knows how much of the Ukraine aid from American Taxpayers intended for this war effort have mysteriously ended up in the pockets of American Democrat politicians and other shady enterprises. For example, SBF’s crimes and shenanigans, greenlit by the democrats, also have connections to Ukraine’s political class. The Biden – Burisma connection is just the tip of the iceberg and deserves heaps of scorn, criticism, and invective. Don’t want criticism, invective and scorn from MAGA? Don’t get in bed with our enemies. End of.
The ordinary Ukraine citizens have my empathy and are not to blame for the actions of their leaders. I want the war to end, to stop the killing and the death and destruction as soon as possible.
LOL
Ukraine is confronting Russia in the same way any nation need to confront any nation that want to violently take them over & destroy the very concept of their separate identity. And the meaning of intelligentsia is not the same as ruling elite.
Cicero said that some things are so absurd, so utterly false, that only a philosopher (what we would call an intellectual – a member of the “intelligentsia”) could believe them – and Cicero was correct. He was not saying that every philosopher believed crazy things – but rather than some things were so crazy, so messed up, that only a very complex person could tie themselves up in intellectual knots so much – that they believed them.
No ordinary person could believe that waving the flag of some external power and demanding that external power rule your country, makes you a patriot.
Only an “intellectual”, a member of the “intelligentsia”, could believe such a thing.
Kill them? Certainly not.
Ask them to stop being illogical – yes.
And, by the way, dressing up like lunatics (balaclava helmets – worn the wrong way round, “boover boots”, and so on) and barging into a church in Moscow, screaming about “feminism” (as if Russia has not had enough “feminism” since 1917, and needs even more of this anti family doctrine) is not the way to undermine Mr Putin – on the contrary it strengthens his position by making the opposition look like crazy people.
[It also makes Mr Putin look like a traditional social conservative – which he is NOT, he pretends to be one (a very different thing) – denouncing him as a social conservative (a traditionalist) delights the old murderer – because that is exactly how he wants to be seen.]
If you do not wish to be thought crazy – do not behave as if you were crazy.
What both Russia and Ukraine need is what so many countries now need – a lot less Plato, and a lot more Aristotle (on the family – and some other things).
Whatever Zelenskyy’s flaws, I shall never forget that, without him, a thug dictatorship would indeed have concrete evidence that it can invade countries whenever it feels like it.
At the same time, Trump critics need to face the plain fact that, without Trump 45, the very same thug dictatorship could have obtained evidence that it can invade countries at will, maybe even before Zelenskyy was elected.
— As a footnote: whatever Yeltsin’s flaws, I shall never forget that he stood up to thuggish would-be dictators in August 1991. What a time to be alive!
There are a couple of pretty telling graphics around the middle of this Guardian article. By and large, Europeans feel that Ukraine needs more support, just not by them.
https://thespectator.com/topic/interview-president-donald-trump-oval-office-april-2025/
I also find it interesting that Trump spared a thought for the Russian boys dying at the front. They probably didn’t have much of a choice either.
I think we all agree much of the political leadership in Ukraine and Russia are scum. The problem is they’re essentially untouchable under the current circumstances, no matter how much we wish otherwise. Putin isn’t going to personally pay for his actions – it’s the Russian people paying the price.
So… finagle a peace first. Then maybe the opportunity to target these politicians will appear.
No, I don’t agree at all. The Ukrainian leadership has actually made strides stamping on corruption, which is not to stay there is not a very long way to go on that score (I was told stories in Ukraine that remined me of my time in Africa). But to act as if the Ukrainian & Russian leadership are much of a muchness is not just wrong, it strongly suggests whoever is saying that doesn’t really know much about the region.
PdH, you’ve been there, you know the people, you love some of the people, and so you can view the nuances of the situation. Very few others have that knowledge and exposure. Everything becomes a monolith. “They’re all evil.”
In dire world times, nuance dies. I’m sure there were some great people on the British side over here back in 1776. There were some great and wonderful people in Japan back in WW2. But that gets lost in the time, unless you have personal contact.
Bobby: it is not a matter of nuance. It is obvious (to those who apply their intellect to the issue) that the Ukrainian army would never have been able to resist the Russian army, if the Ukrainians were as corrupt as the Russians.
It is also obvious that Zelenskyy would have opted for a ride, rather than ammo, back in 2022 — if he were as corrupt as the MAGA people of lower intellect claim.
“as the MAGA people of lower intellect claim”
so pleasant