Then there is one other thought. If you are getting praise from the Kremlin, you aren’t on the right side of the argument. Much of what I’ve heard from people with whom I usually align politically has been Kremlin propaganda without a hint of nuance or consideration that invading another country is morally repugnant and indefensible. An internal conflict is not a justification. The popular uprising that overthrew Yanukovych, which some attribute to the CIA—as if they have that level of power (they don’t)—does not justify an invasion. There was never a justification.
The deal on the table is a shitty one for Ukraine and a good one for Russia. I always felt that the least bad outcome would be the one that would have to happen, but sucking up to Putin and pretty much rewarding him for his invasion is going to backfire. The accusations of NATO expanding eastwards begs the question, why do those countries want to join if Russia is such a peaceful neighbour? Zelensky’s point, clumsily and inappropriately made, is that diplomacy hasn’t worked so far and he is right. Moldova, Estonia, Finland and Sweden are getting twitchy and with good reason, they know how this is likely to pan out, hence the point Zelensky was making about security. Without that, no deal is worth signing, for the bloodshed will merely be delayed.
The deal on the table is a shitty one for Ukraine and a good one for Russia. I always felt that the least bad outcome would be the one that would have to happen
Ok, tell us what the least bad outcome is and how we get from here to there.
There is a widespread thought pattern in the west that tends to assume the worst about the motivations of foreign adversaries. A lot ties back to what people perceive as “the lessons of ww2 and the folly of appeasement”. The world is complex and messy. Putin is a *really* bad guy, as the leaders of most countries are. It is critical to remember that not every foreign adversary is Adolf Hitler.
There are very powerful interests who benefit financially and commercially from this war – and a lot of those interests are in the West. They do not want the war to end because they are making billions of dollars off of it – sometimes illicitly and sometimes purely legally and above board.
In any case, Germany France Italy Spain and the UK are more than capable of combining their financial and economic might to build a powerful military to protect Europe from Russia. Maybe the USA can help a little here and there, but the vast majority of the money, equipment, technology, manpower, and effort should be from Germany, France, UK, Italy, Spain. These are five very powerful countries, more than capable of cooperating, combining their resources, and defending Europe from Putin. Although I must confess that I do not believe Putin has military ambitions or an appetite for conflict in Europe beyond Ukraine in any significant way.
Same goes for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Korea, Egypt, and Canada. These countries should start shouldering a lot more of the financial and military burden to protect their own countries.
The US did not step in to save Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland (West), Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, the Soviet Union. Nor Poland (East), Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. Until Germany declared war on the US. All these places got extremely shitty deals. Most of them retained the shitty deals after 1945. Sometimes life sucks. Finland got way the best deal, by some brave and effective resistance and by making two well timed peace deals (with concessions).
The US has no vital interest in Ukraine. If the Europeans think they have a vital interest in Ukraine, then they have the money to deal with the problem. They are hugely richer than Russia, could flood Ukraine with armaments, and troops, if they really cared. But they don’t, they’re just posturing. Now Daddy is saying he’s got other things on his mind than coddling spoilt teenagers.
Trump’s policy is transparent. The big threat to the USA and its interests is not Russia. Russia is a poor country in rapid decline with a collapsing population. The threat is China. Trump wants to prevent a Russia-China love in, by making nice with Putin. If he’s getting praise from the Kremlin, he’s doing it… right. And he wants the Europeans to look after their own defense because the US has bigger fish to fry. The time has come for the European teenagers to grow up. If you grow up, you don’t need to give a f**k about what Trump says. Just deal with things yourselves. If you don’t grow up – then you get to suck up the consequences.
2025 Russia is not 1945 Russia or 1975 Russia. If you can’t deal with 2025 Russia yourselves, that’s your problem.
Lee Moore said it better than i did
+1
RT (Mr Putin’s international television station) is wall-to-wall hated of Western history and culture. For example its coverage of “the history of colonialism” (which comes up in short bursts – seemingly every few minutes, during what would be commercial breaks in a privately owned station) is a Soviet Marxist parody of the history of Western Empires – and of the expansion of the United States. Everything bad is massively exaggerated, and all good things are covered up.
And, of course, there is endless “Israel bad – boo-hiss” coverage, to appeal to both Mr Putin’s Islamic allies, and the increasing Islamic population in Russia itself (and plenty of RT staff members are from this community).
Oddly enough if the BBC and the Guardian stopped to actually watch – they would find they agreed with Mr Putin and co on many things, everything from Israel, to evil Western colonialism, to America being bad because it lacks Gun Control and free health care, and because it is “racist”.
As for the (alleged) operation of 2014 – or earlier operations (all those “colour revolutions” in various places – certainly not just the Ukraine) – why not hit Kiev then, why wait eight years giving the Americans (and the British) eight years to arm and train the Ukrainians?
Either do not invade at all, or invade at the time and go all the way (to Kiev not just Crimea)- do not wait eight years for the Ukrainian forces to be made vastly stronger (whilst Russian forces do NOT get stronger – because most of the money supposedly spent on them from 2014 to 2022 was stolen, and both training and tactics were neglected.
The terrible losses that Russian forces have sustained over the last three years are down to Mr Putin – he made the decision to invade (Ukraine has nothing that Russia does not have – indeed has vastly more of than Ukraine has) and he did it in 2022 rather than in 2014.
And, of course, there was the bizarre “Operation Market Garden” style plan – land airborne troops near Kiev and hope that the relief forces you have sent from the north (along long narrow roads) will get to them in time.
That was Mr Putin’s personal plan – he is no student of Caesar. Russian forces were slaughtered.
We are told that the Russian armed forces have been sorted out now – and it is true that a least the rifle (the AK12) now works properly (whose idea was it to go to war in 2022 with a rifle that did not work properly?) – but the overall training and tactical problems of the Russian army remain.
Mr Putin has been in charge for 25 years – if he was a military reformer he would have done the job by now.
Still he may launch an offensive over the next few days, it is not raining and the ground is hard. But the last three years have been lots of people killed and maimed for no purpose.
No purpose? Ukraine is not going to be in NATO and Russia will gain territory in the east of Ukraine
As a thought experiment – imagine what would have happened if, instead of arming the Soviet Union (all those Arctic Convoys and so on) the United States and other Western nations had armed Germany.
Think about it – I suggest that the Germans being outnumbered would not have made the difference, not faced with rigid Soviet tactics and lack of training.
That has been the case over the last three years – the Russian Army has continued to use Soviet tactics (and has continued to be badly trained – just as the Red Army was), but it has faced an opponent (the Ukrainian military) with lots of high tech Western weapons, and (unlike Germany in the early 1940s) no shortage of fuel or other raw materials.
Mr Putin really seems to have believed the propaganda that “the Red Army won the war” and all the rest of it, he knows nothing of the vital Western supplies that went to the Soviet Union (even the Red Army trucks were from the United States and Canada – the Germans ended up depending on horses), he also seems to know nothing of the terrible shortages of virtually everything that the Germans faced. The Germans were brave fighters, and the Ukrainians have indeed been very brave (as President Trump said, repeatedly) – but it takes more than courage to win wars, and the Germans ran out of everything.
Still Mr Putin may make me eat my words – by having a successful offensive over the next few days. But that still would not excuse three years of farcical, but horribly blood soaked, incompetence.
There has been no good reason for all these dead and maimed people – both Russian and Ukrainian. The war has been Mr Putin’s personal vanity project.
Shlomo – how could Ukraine ever enter NATO?
All NATO members have a veto on new members, so just get Hungary or Turkey to veto Ukraine joining, job-done. No need for a war.
And what is the point of gaining land?
Russia has all the land and raw materials it could possibly want – this advance gains Russia nothing.
Russia is not the United Kingdom – it is not densely populated and it is not in need of importing raw materals.
Mr Putin is not Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (overcrowded and dependent on foreign supplies of everything) – he is President of Russia.
Russia does not need what he has taken – it is of no value to Russia.
I remember, many years ago, a young man making a speech explaining why these areas were of no value to Russia – that even Crimea was of no real value to Russia and it did not matter that it had been given away in the 1950s.
The name of that young man?
Vladimir Putin.
“Ukraine is not going to be in NATO…”
Ukraine was and is ineligible to join NATO. To prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, all Russia had to do was sit on its ass and do absolutely nothing.
”…Russia will gain territory in the east of Ukraine.”
So now wars of conquest are morally justified?
No matter. For what Russia spent on this war in money, men, and materiel it could have purchased the resources in that territory and still had the employees and equipment intact to make use of them.
Edit: while I was typing my reply Paul Marks stepped in and said this last part better than I did.
May or may not have been possible – and if so only for a period of time.
Because it would depend on the identity of the governments of Hungary and Turkey. The governments of Turkey and Hungary can be changed by EU autocrats to ensure smooth Ukraine accession into NATO, as the EU autocrats recently proved in their regime change operations in Romania.
Anyway, if what you were saying were true then Russia would have done that to prevent the 2009, 2004, and 1999 NATO accessions of Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Croatia, and Albania.
I never said anything about moral justification. Paul Marks said “But the last three years have been lots of people killed and maimed for no purpose” and that is what I was responding to.
This is probably the most retarded thing I have read so far in 2025
“The war has been Mr Putin’s personal vanity project.“
Unfortunately not. The war has broad support in Russia (though perhaps not by those actually fighting it).
Countries can have a collective culture, and the Russian culture is one of industrial empire. They think like Shlomo Maistre above and believe it absolutely is worth the lives of 5,000 Russian soldiers to capture a single Ukrainian coal mine (as long as they’re not personally one of those 5,000 soldiers). I’ve seen too many Russian videos and comments on videos to believe that they place the same value on human life that the West does. I wish that they did.
I’ve come to accept that this war was always going to happen. Putin or no Putin. In fact Putin is a moderate among the current leadership of Russia. If Putin dies he will almost certainly be replaced by someone worse.
This war wii continue until Russia loses.
Well, there goes Korea, Vietnam, Central and South America during the 1980’s, Grenada, pretty much every serious conflict the US has been in – where we’ve invaded another country to meddle in an internal conflict.
As such, its going to be hard for the US to say anything to Putin for doing what we’ve been doing for 50 years.
Russia has had successful pushes for two years now. This is why Ukraine is in the position it is in. Russia can trade 1-for-1 with Ukraine and still come out ahead.
The time to win the war was within the first year. Maybe it could have been done with better support, maybe not. But they’re past that now. They can only win if Europeans enter the field in person. Otherwise its just going to be a slow artillery grind until all the cities are rubble and there’s no Ukraine left.
And the Russians don’t care about Western concepts like ‘war crimes’.
Paul Marks said:
I said in response:
mkent said in response:
mkent literally cannot accept the mere proposition that there *was* some kind of purpose behind Russia’s actions because he is so determined to paint Russia as an irrational evil monster. Acknowledging some kind of rational, even if perhaps unjustified or evil, motivation behind Russia’s actions in Ukraine would shatter mkent’s entire understanding of reality which hinges, in part, on believing Russia is an irrational evil Hitler-like monster.
At the mere suggestion of purpose behind Russia’s action mkent collapses into a state of denial and rage, lodging irrational accusations such as “Shlomo Maistre believes it absolutely is worth the lives of 5,000 Russian soldiers to capture a single Ukrainian coal mine”. Reminds me of “you don’t care about other people” when I questioned the efficacy of wearing masks during covid.
Reminds me of the covid propaganda which captured people’s emotions and they were unable to have rational discussions.
What I learned from covid is that such people will never admit that they were wrong even years later after masses of evidence indisputably arrive.
No vital interest? Not even minor interest. If other people want to kill and die over it, they are welcome to.
I don’t even understand what the big deal is. Europe is rich and powerful. There are 8 serious countries.
United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Poland, Switzerland, and Netherlands.
If those countries cooperate, industrialize, and invest their own money into production of weaponry and equipment then they could conquer the whole of Russia if they wanted to. Europe can easily look after themselves.
Frankly, Putin should be very careful – and he will be.
Shlomo, I understand the Russians perfectly. You, however, are an incoherent mess. Try less incoherent rage and more time thinking about things and writing your thoughts in clear English sentences.
Until then, have a nice life.
lol ok thank you sir
@mkent
Unfortunately not. The war has broad support in Russia (though perhaps not by those actually fighting it).
I think this is something that most observers simply don’t understand. They think the Russians are some oppressed people under a tyrannical dictator that they all hate but fear like Stalin. But that is not what it is like at all as is obvious if you actually listen to Russians. Of course that would be a lot easier to do if the many in the west didn’t censor all Russian press. Of course Russians, like everyone, have diverse points of view but there is not only broad support for the war but broad support for Putin. They see things through a completely different lens than westerners.
They … believe it absolutely is worth the lives of 5,000 Russian soldiers to capture a single Ukrainian coal mine (as long as they’re not personally one of those 5,000 soldiers).
I think that is overstating it a bit, but for sure I think they place a different value on the life of an individual as a general rule than the west does. And, FWIW, Ukrainian culture is a lot more like Russian culture than it is like German or Italian or American culture.
This war wii continue until Russia loses.
Here though I disagree quite simply because Russia is not going to lose. Although the west is pumping bullets, rockets and drones into Ukraine by the boatload, the one major shortage in materiel in Ukraine is Ukrainians. And the west is not going to send their troops into combat. So eventually this ugly war of attrition will end in a peace treaty or there will be no more Ukrainians to throw into the meat grinder. Russia has, and it seems historically has always had, an inexhaustible supply of cannon fodder.
The debacle in the Oval Office is merely a delay to doing exactly the same deal six months or a year from now. Maybe the Europeans will come up with something. Then again, maybe not. They couldn’t agree on stating that ice cream is a delicious summer treat. Because they’d have to say it in sixteen languages, argue over what “ice cream” is defined as, and add a caveat warning against lactose intolerance, and that the overuse of this summer treat can cause obesity… and so forth.
I’ll say again, like I said before, all those illegal aliens that flooded across the border into the US; maybe we should send them to Ukraine once the war is done. There will be a MASSIVE shortage of men and there will be bottomless pits of money to pay for the rebuilding of the country. Seems like a good match. How do you say “one ticket to Kiyv, por favor” in Spanish?
If Russia had free and fair elections this year, Putin would probably poll better than every Western European leader.
He just can’t be bothered with the fig leaf of free and fair elections.
I think Putin is going to keep the territory invaded, there is no return to the status quo ante-bellum.
The European leadership just needs convincing(behind closed doors) they will (personally) make more money from the USA funding the peace&rebuilding of Ukraine than the USA funding the war.
That would be the people who have been reading actual Russian official & state-adjacent statements where they make it clear what their world view is & what they intend to do.
As I have said before, Shlomo is no less deluded than the people who think Israel can make peace with Hamas, ignoring what Hamas have always said their aims are. Russia seeks to expand to dominate Eurasia in a similar manner to Imperial Russia & the Soviet Union.
But he is right Europe has to step up & take the entire burden of confronting Russia. NATO must & will be replaced by a European alliance of suitable players. So nuclear proliferation also needs to happen. In this respect, Trump is just forcing the hand of Europe, making them do what should have happened some time ago.
Have you ever been there? There are & always have been fundamental differences.
What deal? I have yet to see a concrete deal on the table.
And a good thing too, since the Chamberlain/Carter/Obama/Biden* school of diplomacy consists in giving all what America’s enemies ask for, in exchange for them signing a piece of paper.
* and one could argue for placing FDR in there.
This is the key point. Concrete proposals for security should be discussed, instead of phantom deals “on the table”.
Trump could perhaps have obtained a better effect by declaring, on January 20 or 21, that all US military bases in Germany will be closed unless Germany agrees to pay the full cost, including soldiers’ salaries, and better food for them (RFK approved). Some of the bases would be moved to Poland, with half of the savings going to Ukraine.
In addition, Germany should be invited to leave NATO, otherwise the US will leave. Unless the Germans agree to compensate the Ukrainians for all the damage that they financed.
Why do i pick on Germany? Just following Alinsky’s 13th rule: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
This is true – You can add Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Sierre Leone, and Mali to the list of internal conflicts the US or other NATO countries interfered militarily in during the past several.
Afghanistan began as retaliation against terrorism, but devolved into NATO propping up one side of a civil war.
Iraq in 2003 and Panama in 1989 were just outright invasions of other countries.
On a separate note,
cumulative Western Aid to Ukraine is in the region of 150 Billion USD, for coming onto 1 million Russian (KIA&WIA), $150,000/Russian KIA&WIA
cumulative Russian Military budget is in the region of 80. Billion USD, for coming onto 400 thousand Ukrainian (KIA&WIA), $200,000/Ukrainian KIA&WIA
“In the war between Russia and Ukraine, the first to surrender was America.”
– Russian dissident on YouTube
“Ukrainian culture is a lot more like Russian culture than it is like German or Italian or American culture.”
That’s like saying Austrian culture is a lot more like German culture than it is like Greek or Italian or American culture.
“Afghanistan began as retaliation against terrorism, but devolved into NATO propping up one side of a civil war.”
Here, let me revise that for you:
“Afghanistan began as retaliation against terrorism, but devolved into America abandoning the Afghan people as well as its NATO allies in a shambolic Saigon-style withdrawal.”
Always glad to help!