We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
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Samizdata quote of the day – double standards on Israel and Ukraine edition “The Russians are deemed to have agency: the could stop the war. Hamas are treated as if they lack self-determination: they are not held accountable for their crimes or expected to release hostages. Excuses are found for them, in a classic case of the racism of low expectations. Every attack on Israel triggers demands that Jerusalem surrenders territory, that it helps those seeking to exterminate it; things are that are (correctly) never demanded of Ukraine.”
– Allister Heath, in an excellent take-down of the double-think that seems to operate with the UK government and much of the political/chattering classes about what is going on in Ukraine/Russia and Israel one against various Islamist forces. (Article is behind paywall.)
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I for one think that Israel should continue carpet bombing Gaza until Hamas gives up the 60 or whatever hostages they still have. It may require an additional 30,000 Gazan deaths or 60,000 deaths or 200,000 deaths, but what matters is that Israel gets their 60 remaining hostages back, no matter the cost.
This is the only way Israel can get back to doing what israel has been doing for decades – living in peace with the Gazans by depriving Gazans of their freedom of movement, freedom of travel, freedom of industry, citizenship, passport, nationhood, military development, sovereignty, control their immigration and emigration, prohibit them from building ports or airports, shut off their water, gas, electricity whenever the Israelis want, control their trade, prohibit the importation of many product categories into Gaza, arrest/injure/kill Gazans for fishing too far from shore, make life miserable and unlivable, prevent the development of industry, and generally terrorize the population of Gaza in every way possible
…while screaming about how Hamas with its fourth-rate rockets, tunnels, and AK47s represents an existential threat to State of Israel, whose military is among the most advanced and powerful on this godforsaken earth.
We aren’t watching the same movie, clearly
Shlomo – Israel has never “carpet bombed” Gaza and so can not “continue” to do so. The media may parrot Hamas propaganda “400 Palestinians killed in a day” (over an attack that killed a few Hamas commanders and their bodyguards), but here is no reason for you to do so.
As for your other claims – the Islamic forces had total control of the Gaza Salient since 2005, there was no “occupation” indeed no-Jews (they were removed by force – by the IDF).
Your comment appears to be mindless agitprop – appears to be, because it is mindless agitprop.
The Muslims could have made Gaza a nice place (contrary to your claims – Israel would have been delighted had they done that, had turned the salient into the riviera of the Middle East) – but they choose to endlessly attack Israel instead.
October 7th was just one of a seemingly endless series of attacks – but it was vastly bigger, and could not have been organised (as there were thousands of Islamic warriors) without it being widely known about (in advance) by the population of the Gaza salient – none of whom seem to have warned anyone, indeed they celebrated the attack – the mass murder of “infidel” men, woman and children.
They played with the dead and dying bodies.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/israel-palestine/article/2023/12/01/new-york-times-investigation-reports-israel-knew-about-hamas-october-7-attack-plan_6305821_139.html
Yes Israel probably let it happen. Several whistleblowers have come forward and even reputable media outlets have reported this with excuses like “deemed aspirational”. I know first hand how smart Ashkenazi Jews are. There is absolutely no way the Israelis with the best intelligence services (Mossad and Shin Bet) anywhere on earth on the most policed and most surveilled border on earth were completely caught by surprise. I don’t believe it. There are redundancies built onto redundancies onto further redundancies to prevent this kind of thing happening. Hamas operatives don’t take a shit in Gaza City without Mossad knowing about it.
They needed an excuse to… well, you can see what they are doing.
Mr Putin is a bad man, a very bad man – a murderer, but he does not want to EXTERMINATE the Ukrainians – his ideal would be something like the pre 2014 situation, Ukraine with a pro Russian government (he has destroyed the chance of that by killing so many Ukrainians, even people who were pro Russian in 2022 are, mostly, anti Russian now).
Hamas and the Islamic terrorist groups want to exterminate the Jews and other infidels – they want to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth.
And their claim is not just to “the land between the river and the sea” – they make it quite clear that Allah (their God) created the whole world and, therefore, that the whole world belongs to them.
Mr Putin may support them, for his sickeningly cynical reasons, but he is not really like them.
Shlomo – “needed an excuse to do what they are doing” no doubt referring to your previous falsehoods.
If Shin Bet did know and said nothing – it was to “get Bibi out” NOT because they wanted to “carpet bomb” the Muslims or whatever. I note that when the Israeli Prime Minister finally tried to dismiss the head of Shin Bet (at best a useless incompetent – or, alternatively, something much worse) the Attorney General (an establishment type – like the judges) jumped to the defense of the useless (at best useless) person. By their friends you shall know them – someone who is friends with the leftist establishment is almost certainly leftist establishment themselves (and so should never have been in a position of trust in the first place).
Shlomo I used to think you were a harmless eccentric (I am eccentric myself – so I did not mean it as an insult) – with your devotion to absolute (not limited – absolute) monarchy and so on. But I was wrong – you are not harmless, you are a bad person.
You are no good Sir.
Experts have estimated that, between October 2023 and April 2024, approximately 70,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Gaza, surpassing the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, and London combined during ALL OF World War II
Think about that.
Dresden is 127 square miles, London is 607 square miles, Hamburg is 292 square miles. Total of 1,026 square miles over 5 years of war.
Compared to little Gaza 141 square miles over 7 months of war from Oct 2023 through April 2024.
By now the total of Israeli bombs dropped on Gaza since the beginning of the “war” (its not really a war, by the way) is over 100,000 tons of bombs.
Most international groups estimate that at least 80% of civilian infrastructure is either completely destroyed or severely damaged beyond repair. About 85% of the population is homeless. And basically the entire population is struggling to receive sufficient medical supplies, food, safe drinking water, peace and quiet.
You can yap about Israel only targets terrorists, Hamas uses human shields, IDF is most moral army in the world, IDF only uses precision guided munitions to precisely target the bad guys. Whatever, they are just words.
I see what is happening and most of the world does too.
And by the way when I claim that there is a good chance Israel let it happen, I’m not talking about all of Israel or all of Israel’s government or all of Israel’s intelligence services. I imagine maybe a dozen or so individuals placed in sensitive positions knew. That would be enough. Netanyahu himself almost certainly had no idea. The head of Shin Bet – I’m genuinely not sure. But I think it’s highly likely that certain people, probably only around 10 or 20 people, knew and let it happen. I know how smart my people are and it is absurd that they had no idea this was coming. Absurd.
It seems that Shlomo was being ironic when writing this.
Just in case some people take his remarks at face value, I note that it would be just plain insane to carpet bomb the area where the hostages are being held, while demanding the release of the hostages.
— As I previously remarked, I belong to the Chinggis Khan school of international relations.
Had i been Supreme Ruler of Israel in October 2023, my first priority would have been the annihilation of Hamas, and of the head of the snake (the Iranian regime).
My second priority would have been to accomplish the task as quickly as possible, at whatever cost of Gazan lives, since the international outrage is proportional to the duration of the war, not to the number of innocent victims. If i am going to be accused of genocide anyway, then i might as well deserve it.
Saving the hostages would have been, for me, a distant third priority.
Shlomo – you know perfectly well what “carpet bombing” means – it means area bombing designed to kill civilians, which Israel has never done. Has-never-done. For Israel could wipe out Gaza in a week if it choose to do so – which you also know.
Nor has Israel ever cut off anything without the Islamic forces attacking FIRST from Gaza – they have always had the first move. Had they not attacked, many times over the years, nothing would have been cut off. This you also know.
You are no good Shlomo.
You are the sort of person who became one of the Camp Police – a Kapo.
And, in the end, it would do you no good, because after you had finished helping to exterminate your fellow Jews (and other “infidels”) your “friends” would come for you – and they would kill you as well.
Your helping wipe out other Jews, and other “infidels”, would mean nothing to them – other than to give them something to laugh about.
As for President Trump – he proposed evacuating the civilian population of Gaza.
I also support that – because in spite of the fact that they celebrated the October 7th attacks and played with the dead and dying bodies, I do NOT want them to get killed in the cross fire (the Gaza Salient is a relatively small and crowded place – although there are some open areas) – and I know that Hamas and the other Islamic groups use them as human shields (because they care nothing for their own people).
Did you support evacuating the civilians to Egypt and other Islamic lands Shlomo?
I suspect you did NOT – because you do not really give a damn about the Muslim civilians.
Shlomo doesn’t understand “carpet bombing” has a specific technical meaning.
A few curious news stories recently.
Israel voted with Russia, North Korea, US, etc at the UN against a pro-Ukraine resolution.
Israel lobbies US to keep Russian bases in a ‘weak’ Syria
Israel strengthens ties with Russia in bid to curb Turkish influence in Syria
So, given that it seems to be the fashion to claim anyone in the west who isn’t in the Zelensky fanclub is in league with Putin, is Netanyahu also a Putin stooge or not?
As for “carpet bombing” definition. Does what is happening technically fit the definition? Maybe yes, maybe no. Similar to genocide, it is a technical definition and its application to the current situation is certainly a matter of debate.
The salient point is that the vast majority of the dead are civilians. Virtually all estimates say that between 65% and 95% of the dead are civilians. This is outrageous and morally reprehensible.
If the October 7 2023 attack was launched from Turkey or Egypt then I would not have the same kind of moral objection to very high civilian death counts because Egypt and Turkey are sovereign countries with real military forces. The governments of Turkey and Egypt are sovereign and have the legal right and the power to protect their own countries.
Whether Israel likes it or not, Gaza is under the care of Israel. That is the reality of the situation. Israel has had military control over Gaza for decades and the Gazans do not have a country or military of their own (yes Israel has something to do with why that is). The Gazans are at the mercy of Israel. Gazans are under the Israelis’ care and the Gazans have been under the care of Israel for decades. Therefore, Israel has a moral obligation to be cautious, to be careful, to be merciful, and to be restrained in using the extraordinary weapons of war in her possession.
We have witnessed no mercy, no care, no restraint. Only vicious bloodthirsty vengeance, with no mind paid to the innocents – so many of whom were BORN INTO this concentration camp and open air prison. And it breaks my heart partly because these are my people. And yes it angers me.
Yes of course I think Israel should have set aside land for the civilians to leave Gaza. There should have been a piece of land set aside for them right next to Gaza. Give them one month to evacuate. There should have been a process to make sure they take no arms with them into the new territory. After one month after at least the vast majority of civilians are out, then unleash hell on Gaza as Israel has done.
China could have been hired to build a couple cheap cities either on Israeli territory that Israel sets aside for this purpose in the month after Oct 7 2023.
Or if Israel does not want to temporarily spare its own territory for this purpose then fine, go to war with Egypt, reconquer Sinai and settle them there for a period of time while Gaza is taken care of.
After Gaza is obliterated then return the civilians back to Gaza or provide them with another option for them to choose. And return the Sinai back to Egypt.
Should have said 75% not 65%. Basically all the estimates say that between 75% and 95% of the deaths are civilian
“Israel has never ‘carpet bombed’ Gaza and so can not ‘continue’ to do so.”
But then, the media generally have little or no collective knowledge of, or interest in, the conduct of air operations.
It took something in the region of 1300 Allied bomber aircraft to “carpet bomb” Dresden in four raids over two days in February 1945.
The Israeli Air Force possesses a grand total of around 265 aircraft – basically multirole fighters – capable of attacking targets in Gaza. And not all of these are available just for Gaza, since the Israelis have to remain at the ready to deal with other regional threats. In contrast, by the end of WWII, the RAF alone was operating a thousand Lancaster bombers against Nazi Germany.
By the way, “carpet bombing” was used in WWII due to the limited accuracy of targeting systems back then; you basically had to obliterate a large area in and around that ball bearing plant or transport hub in order to take it out. The air strikes these days are far more surgical in nature.
The progressive “anti-racist” world thinks of Hamas as subhuman.
The progressive “anti-racist” world is mostly made up of people who do not believe that a non-white person has the same capabilities (and thus responsibilities) as a white person.
Thus, Hamas can’t help itself.
But – If I hold all people to an identical and equal standard, I am called the racist.
You can argue bomb delivery numbers and definitions all day.
But the real disagreement is going to come with the question of, what do the Gazans deserve?
If you build a culture in which everyone – old and young, and even very young – feverishly yearns and works for the death of another group of people, and who will not give up that goal no matter how many times they are beaten, and who promise to pursue that goal to their dying breath and to the dying breath of their infant kids . . .
How many chances have they been given to change?
Too many. Personally, you can argue all day about the definition of carpet bombing. I DON’T CARE ANYMORE. They are a disease.
@bobby b
The allies successfully reprogrammed most of the surviving German population after WW2. I think that the same is possible for the Gazans but that nothing short of that level of interference will have any effect on their genocidal mentality.
Those numbers are laughably false but even if true, so what? Hamas is (1) a legitimate military target (2) was deeply dug in under urban Gaza. That means the IDF can either not attack the legitimate military targets they have to strike because there are civilians present, making Hamas essentially unattackable & the war unwinnable, or attack and assign responsibility for collateral causalities to the people attacked Israel & who dug in under urban Gaza.
As the Yanks say, it’s not rocket science.
@bobby b
The allies successfully reprogrammed most of the surviving German population after WW2. I think that the same is possible for the Gazans but that nothing short of that level of interference will have any effect on their genocidal mentality. So I suppose I would say that their culture is a disease.
Maybe 60%-90% of Germans killed in WW2 were civilians, but they were still Nazis. If you support Hamas, celebrate the actions of Hamas, it’s irrelevant that you’re a civilian.
Clovis Sangrail:
The allies successfully reprogrammed most of the surviving German population after WW2. I think that the same is possible for the Gazans but that nothing short of that level of interference will have any effect on their genocidal mentality. So I suppose I would say that their culture is a disease.
—————–
Nazism aspired to replace the disfigurement of “Jewish” Judeo-Christian morality with a half-imagined, more “authentic” neo-pagan Norse-Germanic culture.
As such, it was an aberration – a break from over a millennium of widely held Christian faith, which included individualistic Protestant ideas.
In rehabilitating the Germans it was possible to draw on that history.
There is nothing like that in the Muslim world – no secular or democratic civil culture to return to.
The age of Crusades and religious wars may be over in Christendom (or more precisely, Christendom may be over in Europe…) but all Muslim cultures are still in that pre-Enlightenment mindset of ideological and geopolitical conquest. The Turkish attempt to create a modern Arab state has been swallowed back up by the Ummah and its holy wars. Moderate voices were eliminated or shut up.
Hamas are never denounced by fellow Muslims. Even those Muslims that Westerners wishfully call “moderate” support Hamas and its holy war against the infidel. Hamas is not “radical” in its native Muslim cultural milieu. It’s ideas are mainstream, baked into Islam. This is why it is pointless to talk about “Gazan civilians” – this is how Muslims wage war against the infidel. They rape and despoil their neighbors everywhere from Pakistan to Paris.
The Israelis made the same mistake in thinking Arafat was interested in being a “partner for peace” or building a “new middle east” – blindly assuming Muslims want what we want.
It’s a different culture.
Gaza did not become the Riviera for the same reason that the other Muslim nations are backward, corrupt shitholes with medieval disparities of wealth and power.
Good luck with your attempts at reprogramming.
Martin, Israel has acted in a number of ways consistent with what it thinks it must do to survive. Example: voting with the US on the UN issue to stay close to Trump, who is seen (not necessarily correctly all the time) as pro-Israeli. The other votes follow a similar hard-edged pattern. I don’t like these votes. But there it is.
More broadly, I see defence of Israel from those who openly wish to eradicate it as a good thing.
Two-state solutions have been tried, as far as I know, at least four times. Results speak for themselves. I honestly don’t know what the outcome is. What I do know is that Hamas isn’t going to co-exist with Israel.
Similarly, I want Putin contained in his imperial ambitions because of a wider threat to the liberties of several European countries. I don’t really think this is controversial, given Moscow’s conduct, particularly over the past 20 years.
@Ben David.
I respectfully note what you say.
I think that your statement that
is not slightly overstated.
For example: Maajid Nawaz and Ed Husain do not seem to fit that description.
One might also consider the Ismailis and the Druze.
True. But I’m not sure that the German population supported all the bad acts of the Nazis with the same generally-held fervor with which Gaza supports Hamas. The German population had some shame for the camps. So far as I can tell, the same camps would garner general and enthusiastic support in Gaza. There would be kiddie-parades celebrating them.
@bobby b
Oh I get it. I’m just a strong believer in the idea that nurture /culture is what makes the difference. Human nature is pretty universal and immutable.
So, if you can completely break that culture then people can change. I’m not happy about writing off 5 year olds.
Also the 2 people I named are not like Gazans any more and they were fervent Islamists.
None of what I say should be taken as in any way critical of what Israel has done or will need to do BTW.
Justifying what is being done to Gaza by comparing it to what the Allies did to the Nazis is depraved and preposterous. I am sorry to see people whose opinions I typically respect fall for such propaganda and programming.
The Nazis assembled one of the most extraordinary military forces in all of human history and almost single-handedly conquered the whole continent of Europe and held that territory for multiple years. The Hamas are rats hiding in tunnels with AK47s and shooting the lowest quality rockets on the market at Iron Domes which easily intercept said rockets. Hamas cannot do real damage to Israel, let alone take and hold Israeli territory.
Israel’s goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza, to make life so horrific, so unlivable inside of Gaza that the people are forced to give up their tiny piece of land and leave. I see some people here are ok with that – and even cheer it. No moral compass.
With comments and sentiments like this very common from so many so-called westerners, even here in this thread, it is really an open question for me why the West is worth defending against Russia in Ukraine. Gaza is not a sovereign country, Gaza is under Israel’s care. Gaza is part of sovereign Israeli territory and has been for many decades. To treat Gaza like Nazi Germany is just disgusting and flies in the face of any morality ever conceived by man.
This is bobby b justifying Israel’s genocide of gazans because of Gazans’ political opinions. Many Pakistanis do not accept India’s right to exist, that does not mean India has a moral right or ethical right to drop nuclear bombs on Pakistan. We are not supposed to throw the Geneva Convention in the toilet when innocent civilians have thought crimes.
“Israel’s goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza, to make life so horrific, so unlivable inside of Gaza that the people are forced to give up their tiny piece of land and leave.”
Where will they go?
There are many options under consideration. Two countries – Sudan and Somalia – are mentioned in this news article.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-and-us-said-in-contact-with-sudan-somalia-about-resettling-gazans/amp/
To hell with Gazans’ human rights because of their thought crimes, right guys?
I actually mostly agree with what Ben David says here.
I just do not think that this justifies treating Gazans like animals, committing genocide, implementing apartheid, and depriving Gazans of their basic human rights.
I note that Sholomo has not apologized for any of his false claims – and continues to make false claims.
For example, claiming that the Islamic terrorist groups who wish to commit genocide are themselves the victims of “genocide” (in spite of their population going UP every year). Every Jew was removed from Gaza – there was no “occupation”, yet this was not enough for Hamas and the other groups – hence their endless attacks over many years. And their indifference to the life of Muslim civilians – who they will not live in peace (rather than endlessly be at war with infidels), and do not want evacuated either.
Although there were massacres of Jewish populations in the land over the centuries, the largest group of people in Jerusalem in the 19th century were Jews – the land, in those days, was mostly either desert or malaria filled mashes. Even Jerusalem was only a small town.
In the First World War there was a plan to exterminate the Jews – but this plan was vetoed by the German General Falkenhayn.
After the First World War the man who became Grand Mufti organised massacres of the Jews – he was appointed Grand Mufti by a very stupid Jewish person – Herbert Samuel, who thought that giving the man a big title would calm him.
It did not calm him – as the later alliance between the Grand Mufti and Mr Hitler and Mr Himmler showed.
Herbert Samuel was stupid – not wicked, he did not understand that these forces wanted to exterminate the Jews – Shlomo understands this very well – Shlomo is not stupid, he is wicked.
As for the Islamic claim to Tel Aviv and so on – it is on the same basis as the Islamic claim to the rest of the world.
Allah (the God of Islam) created the world and, therefore, his followers are the rightful people to be in charge of the world. The argument is perfectly logical – if one accepts the premise.
And there is no difference between Tel Aviv and Paris or London – in regard to this claim.
This is what genocide is according to the International Court of Justice:
Source:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/South_Africa_v._Israel_(Order_of_26_January_2024)
The ICJ found:
Source:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/South_Africa_v._Israel_(Order_of_26_January_2024)
The ICJ ruled 15 – 2 (16 – 1 on certain counts) that there is a plausible case that Israel is committing acts of genocide in Gaza.
Are all these judges Jew-hating antisemites?
I think there is a plausible case that Israel is committing acts in contravention of the Genocide Convention in Gaza. The International Court of Justice almost unanimously agrees with me. Look at what the Genocide Convention actually says before saying that I am lying or calling me “wicked”.
But of useless information, on Oct 7th, there were over 1,500 Palestinians being treated in Israeli hospitals (no idea how many Jews were being treated in Gazan hospitals). To me, doesn’t seem the scenario of looking at Gaza in a war footing.
What Israel has been doing to Gaza since October 7 2023 – would you have supported Israel doing that same thing to Gaza prior to October 7 2023? Yes or no.
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B’Tselem, United Nations, International Court of Justice – these are all filled to the brim with antisemitic wicked Jew-haters like me right?
When is enough enough? We are at 60,000+ deaths in Gaza. What is the limiting factor? When is it too much? Is 100,000 deaths still ok for you? 200,000 deaths still ok? How about 300,000 deaths? When is it too many deaths for you? Is there a number? No ceiling at all?
If there is a maximum number of deaths you would find acceptable, then what is that number? 500,000?
I sometimes wonder if General Falkenhayn could, if he had been sent to the Middle East earlier, have prevented the massacre of the Christians.
It is true that massacres of the Christians had been going on, on and off, since the 7th century of the Christian era – every so often the money got from the tax on Christians (and the confiscation of some of their children for slaves) would not be enough to save them from massacre (Gladstone and John Bright often pointed this out – but there are many writers going all the way back to the 7th century), but the massacre of the Christians we know as the Armenian and Assyrian genocides (their population went DOWN not UP – and rather drastically) are closer to us historically (they occurred in my own father’s lifetime) – could General Falkenhayn have prevented this, as he prevented the extermination of the Jews – although (yes) there were some massacres of the Jews during the First World War.
General Falkenhayn is an interesting historical figure – he opposed the First World War but felt, as a German officer, it was his duty to fight it. Some of his family wrestled with an even worse dilemma during the 2nd World War.
It is sobering to think that the German General who slaughtered the French at Verdun and the British and French on the Somme – thought the war was a terrible mistake and kept longing for a negotiated settlement.
In the Middle East Falkenhayn (who had few German soldiers – having to rely on Turks and other Islamic soldiers, who were certainly brave fighters – just as they are today and have always been, with Islam “everyone fights” a true believer is a warrior for the faith, war is not just for a professional army, it is for everyone) was defeated by General Allenby – another complex figure.
Who was the real Allenby – the soldier who would bellow with rage if he regarded someone as being dishonourable, or the man who loved flowers, and who stared at the carvings on a church door for almost an hour?
I suppose they both were Allenby.
Allenby, Smith-Dorian, Broadwood, the Earl of Cavan, Plumer, Byng…. many of the British Generals of the First World War were far from “donkeys”.
“When is enough enough?”
When Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages they took.
mkent has no ceiling
At least he is honest about it
No, Hamas has no ceiling.
They will kill Jews. They will get killed themselves in return. They will cry to the world. The world will say “poor wretches!” and rescue them.
They will kill Jews. They will get killed themselves in return. They will cry to the world. The world will say “poor wretches!” and rescue them.
They will kill Jews. They will get killed themselves in return. They will cry to the world. The world will say “poor wretches!” and rescue them.
They will kill Jews. They will get killed themselves in return. They will cry to the world. The world will say “poor wretches!” and rescue them.
And on and on and on . . . .
They could stop it all, if they desired. They don’t.
And so, we’re not killing their children. They are.
“mkent has no ceiling”
Bullshit! I have no say in the matter. Hamas does. The ceiling is whatever Hamas wants it to be. If you don’t like it, take it up with them.
Exactly.
Hamas carried out its October 7 act with clear intent to whip everything up. It doesn’t care tuppence about the general population of Gaza.
Israel’s people, and government, have one overriding concern: self protection from a murderous foe. Thr Hamas charter made no bones about what it wants. The whole “from the river to sea” line is clear as it can be.
And it’s as clear as when Putin mourned the end of the Soviet Union. The implications are obvious unless you evade reality.
Mkent: don’t bother engaging with Shlomo. It’s a waste of time.
“genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group”.
And how does that not apply to what the Palestinians have been doing to Jews for decades? Or do the genocide rules not apply when someone is killing Jews just because they are Jews?
The current casualty estimate is 50,000. The population is just over 2 million. That equates to a death rate of 2.5%.
Let’s accept that over 80% of the infrastructure has been destroyed – the discrepancy between 2.5% and 80% needs to be explained.
If Israel is, as commonly claimed, bombing indiscriminately and actively pursuing genocide, why do they keep missing 97.5% of the population?
For those who do not know – “Palestinian Nationalism” is a fairly recent invention.
For example, after external advice – Chairman Arafat (Chairman of the PLO – which was created in the early 1960s, BEFORE the war of 1967, BEFORE so called “Occupation”) went from being an Islamic warrior born and raised in Egypt – which is what he has been in the 1940s, to a “Palestinian Nationalist” which is what he became in the 1960s. He did this, again taking external advice, to make his cause seem more appealing to gullible Westerners.
The idea is clever – instead of Jews fighting Islamic groups, the idea is to change perceptions to pretend that the opponent is “oppressed and exploited Palestinians” – even “Christian Palestinians” are trotted out (stooges or threatened puppets). The fact that the Christian population of “Israel proper” (the area under the control of the supposedly evil Jews) has been going UP for years, whereas the Christians have been leaving the area under the control of the “Palestinian Authority” (the number of Christians in the “West Bank” has been pushed down – and not pushed down by Jews) is carefully covered up – hardly ever mentioned in the mainstream media.
Paul, several forms of nationalism are only decades old, or perhaps reinvented older traditions of various kinds.
I don’t think the short age of Palestinian nationalism is necessarily an argument against it as such. However, it clearly does undermine the idea that the people now using a label are in roughly the same position as those who were allegedly wronged by the establishment of another state – Israel- in the 1940s.
The outgoing statement from the dismissed head of Shin Bet was very insulting to Muslims – and showed deep ignorance of Islam.
He said that he regretted that he had failed to set up a system of “deterrence” that would have prevented the October 7th 2023 attack.
It is a basic tenet of Islam that a believer who dies fighting infidels goes to paradise – basically nothing better can happen to a believer than to die fighting infidels for Islam. Believing Muslims are NOT cowards – deterrence “if you attack us we will kill you” was never going to work with them.
That the former head of Shin Bet is so utterly ignorant about Islam (that he does not understand “Islam 101” as it were) is frightening.
I repeat – believing Muslims, sincere followers of Islam, are NOT cowards, saying “if you attack us we will kill you” is NOT going to work, “deterrence” does not work with them.
Johnathan Pearce.
It is not real – Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the other groups are no more “Palestinian Nationalists” than you are.
Yes they believe that Tel Aviv should be under the rule of Islam – but they also believe that London should be under the rule of Islam. And their argument is perfectly logical – if you accept their starting principle that Allah created the world and gave his laws to those who submit (Islam means submission – those who submit), his sincere and faithful followers, via Mohammed.
Remember Mohammed himself did NOT create the laws (not according to Islam) – he merely accepted the laws that Allah created – and these laws must govern the world that Allah created.
I respect Islam – and I respect Muslims.
The people who do NOT respect Islam, who do NOT respect Muslims, are people who say (for example) that all religions teach the same basic things (rather than diametrically opposed things), or that Muslims do not believe what is taught in the Koran (remember the later Medina verses take precedence over the earlier Mecca verses), the Hadiths, and the life of Mohammed.
The teachings of Mohammed being NOT made up by him – but, according to Islam, being from Allah (the creator of the universe), and the life of Mohammed as a leader (his conquests – and how he achieved these victories) being a perfect model of conduct.
There are even some people who not only say that all religions teach the same things – but who also say that all philosophies teach the same things.
I would not have believed that anyone could say such an absurd thing, not off-the-cuff (anyone can say something silly – we have all done so) but in a prepared statement, had I not heard it.
“When is enough enough?”
When [Arab] Gaza is demilitarized. I.e.: no rockets, no missiles, no mortars, no bombs. NO threat to Israel and Israelis.
We would like to prevent a second Oct. 7 attack and another war with Gaza.
Jacob – given the practice of smuggling in weapons (or making them) the only way for Gaza to not be armed is for Gaza to be under different governance.
Israel gave the place self rule in 2005 – that proved to be a terrible mistake, a horrible blunder. And the same would be true of the “West Bank” – much of which is closer to the sea than to the Jordan river (it almost cuts Israel in two).
If people do not want the Gaza Salient (and it a salient – as maps show) to be under Israeli rule – what is the alternative? President Trump suggested American rule – but the “international community” frothed with rage over that idea.
An Islamic Gaza means endless attacks on Israel – that is plain.
And the people who want to keep Muslim civilians in a battle-space clearly do not care about those Muslim civilians.
There were endless attacks on Israel between 1948 and 1967 – both shelling and terrorist attacks. So going back to the “1967 borders”, the 1948 ceasefire lines, would achieve nothing.
Nor did Ottoman or British rule mean peace – there were ethnic massacres.
The land was less developed, and less populated, at the start of the 19th century than it had been thousands of years before.
It was mostly desert or malaria filled marshland.
North Africa, the Levant, Syria, and the land of the two great rivers (now called Iraq), Asia Minor, Greece and the Balkans – all were less developed at the start of the 19th century than they had been many centuries before.
I never said that it does not apply to what the Palestinians have been doing to Jews for decades. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and Hamas is NOT a threat to Israel. Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the world with fighter jets, attack helicopters, artillery, tanks, armored personnel carriers, satellites:, while Hamas has machine guns and shitty rockets easily intercepted by iron dome. There is no real threat to Israel posed by Hamas.
What a twisted thing to say. It is amazing how the pearl clutching of Zionists (and their apologists) twist any accountability for Jewish actions into vicious passive-aggressive paranoia about antisemitism. Not everything is a conspiracy to hurt Jewish people. Sometimes the wholesale high tech slaughter of tens of thousands of mostly innocent civilians is wrong even when Jews are doing it. Shocker, I know.
So for you, Hamas is accountable for their bad actions and Israel is not accountable for their bad actions. Got it.
My ceiling is around 10,000. I think that’s a reasonable ceiling in retaliation for October 7. Everyone else in this thread has a no ceiling or limit they have placed on the slaughter of gazans by Israel. 30,000. 50,000. 100,000. 200,000. Doesn’t matter. Because for most people here in this thread Jews can only ever be victims and never perpetrators.
Fortunately, the International Court of Justice believes that both Hamas and Israel are accountable for their actions. And arrest warrants have been issued for both Israeli leaders and for Hamas leaders.
I want to reiterate that if October 7 was committed by a sovereign country or by a terror group being harbored by a sovereign country then my objection to high civilian death counts resulting from Israeli military action would largely if not entirely go away.
Syria, Turkey, Egypt. These are fair game because they are sovereign countries. If October 7 was launched by a terror group from inside of Syria or Jordan or Egypt, the response of Israel would be far more defensible and reasonable.
I am all in favor of Jews and Israelis defending themselves, and ensuring their own safety and security through vigorous and aggressive military action.
Gaza and Hamas are not real threats to Israel. They just aren’t. Hamas has pathetic rockets that do no damage to Israel, and AK47s. That’s all they have. Israel has the most magnificent Air Force on planet earth, massive fleets of advanced high tech tanks, drones, armored personnel carriers, and artillery, all in extraordinary numbers, plus a real navy, high tech attack helicopters, satellites and so much more. Hamas is no threat to Israel.
Gaza is a concentration camp. An open air prison. Gaza has been controlled by Israel, under Israeli military rule for decades. Gaza is simply not a sovereign country and never has been. It is an open air prison, not a sovereign country.
What Israel is doing is simply wrong. It is immoral. And illegal. And inhumane.
LOL. You want a forever war. The Czechs showed how to end that kind of problem in 1946 in the Sudetenland.
To edit for clarity:
If October 7 was launched by a terror group from inside of Syria or Jordan or Egypt, the same kind of response Israel is doing against Gaza now would be far more defensible and reasonable when aimed against Syria or Egypt or Jordan instead of Gaza. Because these are sovereign countries, not concentration camps under Israeli military rule.
Annihilating Hamas in Gaza even at the cost of however many civilian lives is not going to end this conflict. In fact, it seems to me that Israel’s current action in Gaza exacerbates the conflict enormously and will ensure there is a forever war for at least the next 10 generations (200+ years).
What Israel is doing in Gaza right now will not be so easily forgotten. Especially by Arabs throughout the Muslim world.
Hamas is more popular in the Muslim world than ever before – thanks in large part to what Israel is doing to Gaza now.
Ok so if I’m not misunderstanding you, that is +1 from Perry for voluntary transfer/ethnic cleansing/expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza. You support the same solution for the Palestinians in the West Bank also, I suppose?
Of course it will. Some ethnic or religious conflicts are solvable problems, others are not. Israel has a sizable integrated Arab population, so to see this as an Israel vs. the Rest of Non-Jewish Middle East conflict is not correct. Displacing & dispersing radicalised pockets like Gaza & quite possibly West Bank, and maybe parts of Lebanon/Southern Syria will not just make the area safer for Israel, it will do wonders for the Druze, Maronites & certain other communities too.
This is ethnic cleansing. I’m assuming it is ok with you when Israel does it but it would not be ok with you if Russia were to do it.
Might be very small parts of Shin Bet and/or very small parts of Mossad and/or very small parts of IDF military intelligence group. The reason given to certain individuals may have been to get Bibi out but the real reason was ethnic cleansing. To expel most of the Gazans from Gaza permanently.
Article from yesterday.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-847152
This has been the plan for decades. Oct 7 was a pretext.
It is going to end the conflict with Hamas.
What other conflict do you have in mind?
The issue is not who does it. The issue is, to whom it is done.
Remember: ethnic cleansing is a lesser evil, compared to genocide.
Such a generous offer.
The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs was going on for many decades prior to Hamas being created in the 1980s.
Paul:
I am broadly in agreement with you, Paul.
But it seems to me that Shlomo’s ‘devotion to absolute monarchy’ is closely related to his objectively pro-Hamas (and pro-Ayatollah) stance: both are based on a delusional view of historical reality.
Well, I think that years ago the IDF should have completely destroyed most of the following:
1. The Bandar Abbas port
2. All government buildings in Tehran
3. The three major oil refineries (Bandar Abbas, Isfahan, Abadan)
4. The six most important sites for its nuclear program (Isfahan, Natanz, Arak, Bushehr, Fordow, Parchin)
5. Kill all major Iranian leaders, including of course the Ayatollah
I still think the IDF should do this ASAP.
Calling me objectively pro-Hamas or pro-Ayatollah is hilarious and just showcases yet again how you cannot imagine let alone process nuanced opinions on complex subjects. You aren’t the only person in this thread suffering from this same deficiency.
Iran is the threat to Israel. Gaza is not a threat and never was any threat.
Shlomo Maistre
March 23, 2025 at 6:44 pm
“Such a generous offer.”
Remember, there has always been a third option.
Stop devoting your lives to the eradication of Israel, and live happily ever after.
If they will not sign up for that, then they have chosen to limit themselves to being killed or moved away. Their own choice.
And, no, Hamas poses no actual existential threat to Israel. But that is scant comfort for the individual Israelis that Hamas continually massacres.
All choice in this matter belongs to Gaza. If they refuse to end their continual forever-intifada, then they have chosen, badly.
There are millions of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza who never dedicated their lives to hurting Israel at all. Israel had the opportunity for decades to give these peaceful Palestinians full Israeli citizenship and equal rights. Israel refused to do so.
Here we have a factual dispute that defines our positions. There really is no bridging such a significant disagreement.
But the split in world opinion – the controversy over supporting Gaza or Israel – really does come down to this point.
Well, some people believe that even though many Palestinians are bad people that they still do not deserve to be subjected to mass murder, crimes against humanity, or systematic human rights violations. But lets set Gaza aside for a moment.
In terms of the global debate surrounding the conflict, the real original distinction between the two sides is as follows. One side wants Israel to exist as a safe, stable, secure Jewish State with an overwhelming Jewish Majority inside of defensible borders. The other side does not want to deprive any of the people who have lived between the Jordan River and the Med for generations of their human rights. That’s the difference. It’s not really possible to fulfill both goals, which of course was obvious to the original Zionists and founders of Israel.
That is why ethnic cleansing and expulsions were implemented en masse by the Zionists in order to achieve the overwhelming Jewish Majority population inside of defensible borders at the founding of the State of Israel. This has been well documented in many history books by various historians, including for example Benny Morris.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
Paul Marks is correct that “Palestinian” is mostly a fake ethnic identity adopted in order to fight against Israel. Palestinians are in fact just Arabs.
The conflict at its root is a Jewish-Arab blood feud. Jews and Arabs both want the same land and their claims are mutually exclusive. Their claims always have been mutually exclusive.
Ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank as certain folks here have suggested would not resolve the conflict. Ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank would effectively expand the borders of the Jewish Majority Ethnostate but it would not resolve the underlying conflict which is really based on the fact that the entire State of Israel was secured by en masse ethnic cleansing and forced expulsions and by the systemic deprivation of human rights to many Palestinians. The legitimate grievances that many Palestinians have against Israel will always be used by certain governments in the Muslim World to garner public legitimacy, public support and whip up a frenzy of anger at the West.
They seemed pretty popular on Oct 8th, judging by the numbers of Arabs celebrating what they’d done. I think that once a murderous bunch of terrorists pass a certain degree of popularity, being even more popular really doesn’t make any difference. OMG 85% of Arabs now support Hamas slaughtering Jews, when it only used to be 75%, how dreadful, stop bombing them immediately!
So you’re happy with Hamas being free to slaughter some Jews every now and again, whenever they can orchestrate it and catch Israel unawares, just because Gaza isn’t an internationally constituted country, and Israel has has more people than live in Gaza? The population of Gaza is akin to that of Slovenia, can it start armed raids to rape and murder into neighbouring Austria (roughly the same population as Israel) then, and not expect them to retaliate too much?
Context is everything.
The point is that what Israel is doing is counterproductive because Israel’s actions are creating more terrorists than they are eliminating. Israel, of course, knows this and does it anyway because the real goal is not to defeat Hamas but rather to ethnically cleanse Gaza of as many Gazans as possible.
Lets say that Austria forcibly expelled Slovenians from over half of their territory, and then turned what little land they allowed the Slovenians to live in into a concentration camp, into an open air prison for decades, erected barbwire fences to keep the Slovenians inside their tiny territory, bombed the Slovenians occasionally, implemented a blockade that prevented whole categories of products from entering Slovenia, prevented the development of any heavy industry, kept the economy in a state of depression, massive unemployment, widespread abject poverty, preventing any real manufacturing or any economic growth, removed Slovenians passports, prohibited the construction of any airports or ports inside of Slovenia, prevented emigration or immigration, prevented Slovenia from conducting international affairs, prevented Slovenia from agreeing trade agreements with other countries, prevented potato chips and chocolate from entering Slovenia only to increase the misery and discontent inside of Slovenia, dropped massive bombs on any Slovenian leaders who spoke out against Austria’s actions, prevented Slovenia from issuing citizenship, turned off Slovenia’s gas, water, electricity whenever Austria wanted to do, arrested, attacked, and jailed Slovenians for hunting or fishing in their own sovereign lands and sovereign waters, no freedom of movement, no freedom of travel, constant violations of international law, constant crimes against humanity…
And then shrieked and screamed, playing the victim, that the Slovenians do not accept Austria’s right to exist and therefore Austria cannot allow Slovenia to enter the global community of nations as an equal with its own military, its own immigration policy, its own trade policy and its own passports and Sovereignty as a Sovereign Nation.
And then after all that October 7 happens and Austria uses that as an excuse to remove shelter, water, electricity, food from 80% of the population, entire cities turned into rubble to try to make life so miserable inside of Slovenia so that as many Slovenians as possible simply leave what little land they still possess to go and live in another country
Then when the world speaks out against what Austria is doing the Austrians scream “why do you hate Austrians???” and make accusations of antisemitism
Shlomo Maistre wrote: Hamas cannot do real damage to Israel…
On 7 October 2024, Hamas killed over 1,000 Israelis. Was that not real damage?
Shlomo Maistre wrote: If there is a maximum number of deaths you would find acceptable, then what is that number? 500,000?
Is there a maximum number of Israeli deaths he would find acceptable?
[BTW, his sentence is somewhat confusing. I would phrase it as “What is the maximum number of deaths you would find acceptable?”]
What is the maximum number of deaths Israel should accept without attacking Hamas in force? More than 1,000, obviously. 5,000? 10,000? 100,000?
Shlomo Maistre wrote: …the Gazans do not have a country or military of their own…
Hamas has thousands of men armed with assault rifles, heavy machine guns, and fixed-base and shoulder-fired rocket launchers. (They had over 10,000, most of which are now dead or prisoners.) In the fighting since 7 October, Hamas has killed over 800 Israeli soldiers. That’s about the same number of Israelis as were killed in the entire Six-Day War. It’s four times as many as killed in the 1956 war with Egypt.
Shlomo Maistre wrote: Gaza is part of sovereign Israeli territory…
False. Gaza is not now and never has been Israeli territory. It was under Israeli military occupation from 1967 to 2005. In 2005, all Israeli troops were withdrawn from Gaza, and stayed out until October 2024.
Shlomo Maistre wrote: “…concentration camp…” four times.
Anyone who wants to can look up Gaza on Google Maps. There are about two dozen StreetView snippets in Gaza (points where one can view the surroundings). I’ve clicked on some of them. None of them looked anything like Auschwitz or even Manzanar.
It is damage but it is absolutely not what I would call real damage.
I have already stated multiple times that I think Israel should have retaliated for October 7. I think that the appropriate and proper ceiling is around 10,000 Gazan deaths. 60,000+ is completely disproportionate. The vast majority of the deaths are innocent civilians. Hamas deaths constitute perhaps 20% of the 60,000 deaths while the the vast majority are innocent civilians. This is collective punishment – it is inhumane, immoral, and illegal.
The manner in which Israel has conducted itself in Gaza constitutes not only collective punishment (punishing mostly innocent civilians) and crimes against humanity and war crimes but also violates the Geneva Convention on Genocide. 80% of Gazans have no shelter, clean water, electricity. It is preposterous what Israel is doing, clearly intended to make life so horrible so miserable for Gazans to force them to leave Gaza and live in third party countries. This is a clear case not only of likely genocide but also (attempted) ethnic cleansing.
If Gaza were a country then Gaza would have its own trade agreements with other countries, receive investments from abroad without interference from Israel, be able to import chocolate and soda and potato chips without Israel’s consent, be able to construct its own heavy industry, its own utilities, its own electricity, its own water without Israel being able to shut it off at any moment, Gaza would have its own citizenship, its own passport, its own immigration policy, its own military, be able to import helicopters, fighter jets, submarines, tanks, artillery, armored personnel carriers, be able to construct its own ports and airports without Israel disallowing it, would be able to allow Gazans to fish and hunt in their own sovereign waters for fish without Israel arresting Gazans and jailing them for fishing, would be able to develop its own manufacturing, its own industry, its own metal fabrication plants, would be able to allow immigration of foreigners into Gaza and emigration of Gazans out into the rest of the world.
Gaza is not a country. Gaza has never been a country. It is an open air prison and concentration camp.
If Hamas were a real military then they would have thousands of tanks, thousands of artillery pieces, thousands of armored personnel carriers, hundreds of fighter jets, dozens of attack helicopters, a few ICBMs perhaps, and maybe even a small navy too. Hamas has none of these things. Zero. Nothing.
They are rats hiding in tunnels with machine guns and the lowest quality rockets easily intercepted by Iron Dome. That’s not a military. Not at all.
Gaza and the West Bank are part of Greater Israel. Israel has exerted military control over Gaza and the West Bank since 1967 and has implemented a system of apartheid in West Bank and Gaza for decades whereby Jews who live in Gaza and West Bank are Israeli citizens and receive full legal rights and protections while Arabs who live in Gaza and West Bank are not citizens and are subjected to military law, segregation, and systematic oppression, checkpoints, limits on travel, restrictions on movement, and constant surveillance. Israel has implemented apartheid according to B’Tselem, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and virtually every single objective third party in the entire world.
Yes Israel kicked forcibly expelled all the Jews from Gaza in 2005. And after 2005 Gaza still has not been a Sovereign Country. This is obvious because if Gaza were a country then Gaza would have had its own trade agreements with other countries, receive investments from abroad without interference from Israel, be able to import chocolate and soda and potato chips without Israel’s consent, be able to construct its own heavy industry, its own utilities, its own electricity, its own water without Israel being able to shut it off at any moment, Gaza would have its own citizenship, its own passport, its own immigration policy, its own military, be able to import helicopters, fighter jets, submarines, tanks, artillery, armored personnel carriers, be able to construct its own ports and airports without Israel disallowing it, would be able to allow Gazans to fish and hunt in their own sovereign waters for fish without Israel arresting Gazans and jailing them for fishing, would be able to develop its own manufacturing, its own industry, its own metal fabrication plants, would be able to allow immigration of foreigners into Gaza and emigration of Gazans out into the rest of the world.
Israel has treated Gazans like prisoners in an open air prison and concentration camp for decades. This is an objective reality backed up by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B’Tselem and many other international organizations. Just read their reports. Israel is credibly accused not only of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza but also violating the Genocide Convention and attempting ethnic cleansing. Israel is trying to deprive every single human inside of Gaza of shelter, clean water, food, electricity, and generally terrorizing the population with bombs raining from the sky every day in order to make life as miserable as possible for every single person in Gaza so that as many Gazans as possible give up and leave Gaza to start a new life in another country. It’s disgusting, illegal, inhumane, and immoral. Most of the world sees what is happening. I see what is happening. It’s unequivocally wrong and Israel should be ashamed. Shameful
1,000 Israelis killed in one day is not real damage? Bonkers. That’s like UK having 6,000 killed in one day or USA having 34,000 killed in one day.
Shlomo seems to think that Hamas did not intend to destroy Israel on October 7th. It did. It may seem preposterous to us, but they thought that, with Hezbollah and Iran, they could destroy Israel. Oh, and the help of Allah, let’s not forget.
There is no making peace with them. They are fanatical religious terrorists. They have no interest in a two state solution or improving the living standards of the Gazan people. The first thing they did when they took power was to destroy the extensive horticulture which Israel left behind. It would have earned them millions, but it was made by Jews, so they destroyed it, and on October 7th they destroyed Jews.
There is no making peace with these people. Ever.
Why not?
The Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and West Bank have the same exact ancestry, ethnicity, culture, and religion as the Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens.
Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens get along reasonably well. There is probably a bit of racism here and there, but it works fine overall and they live together peacefully, with full equal rights. Many Palestinian Arabs with Israeli citizenship have high positions in the economy and contribute very productively to society.
So the question that you should ask yourself is why can’t Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Arabs who live in the Gaza and West Bank open air prisons get along just like Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens get along?
Same ancestry, same culture, same religion, same ethnicity. The only difference is that the Palestinian Arabs in Israel have Israeli citizenship and full equal rights, while the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and West Bank open air prisons have been treated like rats and concentration camp inmates for decades.
I guess if you treat someone like an animal for decades, commit human rights violations, crimes against humanity en masse for decades and decades, deprive them of many basic liberties, deprive them of nationhood, deprive them of citizenship, deprive them of any dignity, deprive them of basic freedom, they might not like that very much? Is this possible? Am I an antisemite for asking this question? Is it possible that Israeli treatment of these people is driving some of the “there is no making peace with these people” sentiment?
Did Israel just magically figure out 70+ years ago precisely which Palestinian Arabs want to live peacefully with Israeli Jews and give only them Israeli citizenship, while keeping the rest of the Palestinian Arabs (who have the same culture, same religion, same ancestry, same ethnicity) in open air prisons because the Jews figured out somehow that THOSE Palestinian Arabs do not want to live peacefully with Israeli Jews?
Or is it possible that Israeli actions through many decades and Israeli treatment of Palestinian Arabs in the Gaza and West Bank open air prisons has caused some resentment and anger over the decades among those people which is leading to Palestinian Arabs who live in the open air prisons to undertake re-actions that lead people like JohnK to believe “there is no making peace with these people”?
Shlomo:
The proof is what happened. There can never be peace with Hamas.
The parallels to 9/11 are remarkable. Mass media propaganda campaign fueling a huge over-reaction to a real event. Pure hysteria. Hysterical binary thinking and total loss of judgment and wisdom.
“Did Israel just magically figure out 70+ years ago precisely which Palestinian Arabs want to live peacefully with Israeli Jews and give only them Israeli citizenship, while keeping the rest of the Palestinian Arabs (who have the same culture, same religion, same ancestry, same ethnicity) in open air prisons because the Jews figured out somehow that THOSE Palestinian Arabs do not want to live peacefully with Israeli Jews?”
Yes – that’s precisely and exactly what happened.
The ones who wanted to live in peace, stayed where they were and were accepted as Israeli citizens. The ones who retreated across the front lines to wait for the victorious arab armies to crush the nascent state so they could come back to a jew-free state weren’t.
I’m sure lots of them now regret that decision. They should make peace with Israel and get on with making a state for themselves rather than continuing to rape, murder, loot and kidnap whenever Israel drops its guard enough to let them.
Shlomo Maistre wrote: I have already stated multiple times that I think Israel should have retaliated for October 7. I think that the appropriate and proper ceiling is around 10,000 Gazan deaths.
So it would be OK with you if Israel killed random residents of Gaza, up to 10,000? As “retaliation”? That sounds like collective punishment to me. If that is what you think then you are a vile, murderous scumbags.
Or perhaps you think Israel should have sought out and killed the perpetrators of the 7 October massacre and their associates, up to 10,000 in number, but not killed or injured any innocent Gaza residents, nor damaged any property in Gaza.
That’s a wonderful idea. How could Israel do that, given that said perpetrators and associates were dispersed through most of the territory of Gaza, concealed inside buildings and underground bunkers?
Well, I suppose Israel could send ground troops into Gaza, to go through the buildings and locate the underground bunkers, killing or capturing any Hamas fighters they find. Unfortunately, the Hamas men have assault rifles, heavy machine guns, and rocket launchers, which they fire at Israeli troops. The result is battle – in a densely populated urban area.
BTW – if Israel’s only object in this war was to kill 10,000 (or 60,000) Palestinians, they could have accomplished that in one day with no casualties. Why then has Israel sent in ground troops for close quarter house-to-house fighting with heavy casualties?
JohnK – I just want you to know my last comment was referencing not only you but basically everyone in this thread. Just fyi
The Pedant General
This is what I was taught by my family, community, and synagogue growing up as well. It’s not true.
What actually happened in and around 1948 is the vast majority of the Palestinians who “retreated” were actually forcibly expelled by Israeli forces. Yes there were very small numbers who left because they chose to leave, but the vast majority were forced at the barrel of a gun to leave their homes and their lands. This is demonstrated extensively by the “New Historians” who access the archival evidence from the Israeli government in the 1980s – people such as Benny Morris, Simha Flapan, Ilan Pappe. You should read their books.
Rich Rostrom
A report by Haaretz:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-26/ty-article/investigation-shows-in-gaza-war-idf-slacking-on-protocols-meant-to-protect-civilians/00000194-0491-dc8b-afb4-5cf7e0ca0000
I would have tightened that 20 civilians endangered per stike limit back to something like 5
I would have never allowed the use of 1,000 let alone 2,000 pound bombs, especially given that Gaza is extremely densely populated
I would have put the cap on noncombatants dead per day at 50 instead of 500
I never would have dropped dumb bombs, I would only every use bombs with guidance systems
I also would not have used starvation as a weapon or war against civilians as Israel has done. Israel routinely and for very long periods of time prevented any humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. When they allowed food, water, medical supplies, and tents to enter Gaza they strictly limited how much and the amounts were very low and limited. I would not have prohibited humanitarian aid from entering Gaza at all, or placed any limit on the amounts permitted in.
I also would not have turned the electricity and gas off for Gaza as Israel has done.
So overall the result of my changes would be a much much higher percentage of the dead actually being the bad guys, instead of the civilians. Yes still civilians would die, but instead of civilians being 85% of the dead, civilians would actually be more like 50% of the dead. Also instead of 60,000+ dead people, there would only be around 10,000 dead people.
Israel did not choose my path because Israel decided on October 7 to create such horrific conditions inside of Gaza, make Gaza so unlivable and terrible to live in to force as many Gazans as possible to leave Gaza permanently and emigrate to other countries such as in Europe or elsewhere in Middle East. Disgusting ethnic cleansing, immoral, unethical and inhumane. Israel commits these crimes against humanity, war crimes, and Genocide Convention violations and then has the chutzpah to accuse critics of being antisemites. Total lunatics.
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israel-voluntary-emigration-gaza-israel-katz-feshfp19
Oh also I would not have dropped bombs on hospitals or schools or tent cities or Mosques or Churches as Israel has routinely done. Shocking, I know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris#Published_works
Yes a few fled voluntarily or as a result of orders from Arab leaders, but the vast majority of Palestinians who fled in 1948 were forced to leave by Israel. That’s what happened.
And so, I ask again:
Did Israel just magically figure out 70+ years ago precisely which Palestinian Arabs want to live peacefully with Israeli Jews and give only them Israeli citizenship, while keeping the rest of the Palestinian Arabs (who have the same culture, same religion, same ancestry, same ethnicity) in open air prisons because the Jews figured out somehow that THOSE Palestinian Arabs do not want to live peacefully with Israeli Jews?
Or is it possible that Israeli actions through many decades and Israeli treatment of Palestinian Arabs in the Gaza and West Bank open air prisons has caused some resentment and anger over the decades among those people which is leading to Palestinian Arabs who live in the open air prisons to undertake re-actions that lead people like JohnK to believe “there is no making peace with these people”?
Then don’t dig military positions under hospitals or schools or tent cities or Mosques or Churches. You’re a crackpot.
“military position”
Zionists and their apologists act like what’s hiding under Al-Shifa Hospital is the 34th Panzer Division about to conquer Tel Aviv and not a few dozen retards with AK47s in order to justify dropping 2,000 pound bombs on hospitals that are trying to keep Palestinian toddlers alive after having their baby arms blown off from the previous round of artillery fire from “The Most Moral Army In The World”
Hamas has a grand total of zero tanks, zero artillery pieces, zero, fighter jets, zero armored personnel carriers, zero submarines, zero helicopters.
High civilian casualties are sometimes acceptable in a real war. This isn’t one.
Israel knows that their actions are creating more terrorists than they are eliminating, but they are doing it anyway because the real goal is not to “defeat Hamas” but rather to ethnically cleanse as many Gazans out of Gaza as possible.
Can Israel at least pay for its own war atrocities instead of using American Taxpayer $$$ to do it??
Fixed that for you.
There’s a gulf here in who we blame. We’re not going to convince on this particular issue. It’s just going to decay into name-calling.
I’ve already been called “wicked” “Kapo” “bad person” “crackpot” all in just this thread.
A couple people in this thread have openly supported Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza of Palestinians. At least such a justification for Israel’s actions is logical and consistent with reality. I may not agree with it, but I can comprehend and understand that perspective.
People attempting to justify Israel’s actions for really any other reason have been, shall we say, less than impressive in both their argumentation and also their interpretation of reality.
I have described you as what you are Shlomo – what you have chosen to be.
I did not ask you to support the extermination of seven million Jews in Israel, the objective of your “friends” (who are not really friends at all – as you will find out one day, when your “friends” turn on you) Hamas, Islamic Jihad and so on – you made a choice to do that.
The reality is that you are no good Shlomo – and that is not my doing, that is your choice. You could choose to be a decent person – but you have chosen (you have made a choice) to be an evil person.
As for Israel – its terrible WEAKNESS, first handing over Gaza to the forces of Islam in 2005 (using force to remove all Jews), and then its horrible weakness even after the October 7th 2023 attack. As Shlomo, who repeats, as truth, the lies of Hamas and other Islamic groups, knows very well – I have not “openly supported” the terrible weakness that Israel has shown – I have, repeatedly, condemned its terrible weakness. A weakness that has led to terrible suffering for BOTH Jews and for Muslim civilians (left under Hamas and other groups – and left in a battle space – the Gaza Salient).
Lastly on those people who think that if seven million Jews in Israel are sacrificed the problem will go away – well people who think that are mistaken. The Shlomo style policy of exterminating his fellow Jews in Israel would NOT mean that the problem went away.
It is true that the various armed Islamic groups believe that Tel Aviv should be under Islamic rule (the idea that Hamas and the other Islamic groups just wanted “Gaza and the West Bank” is a LIE) – but they also believe that London, New York and everyone else should be under Islamic rule, on the grounds that Allah (their God) created the world, indeed the universe. Their position is logical (I admit that) – if one accepts their starting principle.
So exterminating the Jews of Israel would solve NOTHING – the global conflict would continue.
Just wanted to note that i perceive Shlomo differently from the way Paul Marks perceives him.
I cannot be sure that my perception is correct, of course, so you can take it or leave it: I won’t be offended. Actually, i offer my opinion in all humbleness, aware that many people will find it offensive.
My perception is that, like the vast majority of *American* Jews, Shlomo holds his fellow Jews (and probably his fellow Americans) to impossibly high standards.
This prevents him from understanding that people (and in this context, specifically Palestinians, especially Gazans) respond to incentives.
Let me just say that I would fully support Israel conducting massive airstrikes against Iran that kills 100,000 innocent Iranian citizens if those airstrikes removed Iran’s government from power and destroyed Iran’s nuclear program.
I’m a hawk, and I support Israel vigorously and aggressively protecting its existence including by massive and lethal pre-emptive strikes against her avowed enemies. I just happen to oppose genocide against a defenseless people who have no military capabilities and have been subjected to military occupation for decades, which makes me a “Kapo” “wicked” “pro-Hamas” “pro-Ayatollah” “bad person” “crackpot”.
In 1967 Israel attacked Egypt and other Arab countries as a result of Egypt blocking the Straits of Tiran. Israel recognized this correctly as an ACT OF WAR.
What Israel has been doing to Gaza for DECADES with even just only its blockade of Gaza, which is just 1 tiny piece of Israel’s crimes against Gaza, is many times bigger than what Egypt did to Israel which prompted Israel to start a massive war.
There are people I know who believe that Israel should have forcibly expelled in 1967 and ethnically cleansed every single Palestinian from both Gaza and the West Bank/Judea and Samaria in 1967. That is an opinion I can respect, even though I do not agree with it.
I am quite confident that the vast majority of you with maybe one or two exceptions do not and have never held such a strong opinion in favor of Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza let alone the West Bank prior to Oct 7.
If any of you would have OPPOSED Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza prior to October 7 but SUPPORT Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza after October 7, then you are controlled by media propaganda and I pity you. This is probably almost all of you guys.
And if you support Israel’s current actions in Gaza but do not support Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza, then I have a bridge to sell you.
“And if you support Israel’s current actions in Gaza but do not support Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza, then I have a bridge to sell you.”
Yup – sell me your bridge. Israel is not ethnically cleansing Gaza. To the extent that is, it’s not Israel that’s doing it: it’s Hamas.
Give me one example where the targets of a determined campaign of ethnic cleansing had any agency or ability to make it stop. One.
In Gaza, all that has to happen for Israel’s offensive to stop is for Hamas to surrender and return the hostages and bodies of late hostages. It’s called a war. If you’re losing, surrender.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-847152
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-pilot-project-begins-for-emigration-of-gazans-to-indonesia
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250323-israel-approves-new-agency-for-voluntary-departure-of-palestinians-from-gaza/
The USA government took away all Constitutional rights from everyone in Wyoming, removed citizenship from every American in the State of Wyoming, erected a blockade on Wyoming so that nobody could go into Wyoming or leave Wyoming, erect a massive wall and barricade on the perimeter of Wyoming, prevent Wyoming from conducting any foreign relations, prevent Wyoming from having its own country, prevent Wyoming from trading freely with any other country, prevent Wyoming from being recognized at the United Nations, prevent most categories of products from being imported into Wyoming including chocolate and potato chips, terrorize the population of Wyoming, prevent Wyoming from developing its industry, arresting people in Wyoming for hunting or fishing in their lands, prevent Wyoming from having any kind of economy, prevent Wyoming from having any kind of military except bottle rockets, AK47s, and tunnels to hide in, prevent any economic growth, prevent Wyoming from having its own passports, sovereignty, foreign relations, citizenship, immigration policy, etc
And enforce all of the above for DECADES, preventing any kind of sovereignty or basic rights or most rudimentary freedoms for the people of Wyoming and then after DECADES of this a couple thousand Wyoming people burst through the barricades and kill a thousand Americans. And then in retaliation America sends the USMC and US Air Force to bomb Wyoming into the stone age, killing tens of thousands of children, because the terrorists had broken through the concentration camp barrier. The bombing continues until Wyoming agrees to give up their AK47s and bottle rockets, in exchange for nothing. Even if they give up their AK47s they will STILL not be able to have any sovereignty or any freedom or any dignity or rights or economy or their own country or American citizenship
It’s fucking insane to call that a war.
It’s a concentration camp and open air prison.
I am ok with high civilian casualties in a war. This sure as hell is not a war or anything even close to a war. Anyone calling this a war is engaging in willful gaslighting
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-its-fact-and-not-a-conspiracy-that-ronen-bar-knew-about-oct-7-invasion-but-didnt-wake-me/
Yet even more evidence that I was right and you all who attacked me for “lies” and “falsehoods” were wrong.