The Ukrainian search for an inspiring and usable past—a search for brave historical warriors whose legacy might be appropriated for the sake of inspiring the heroic warriors of the present—is to be respected, even as some of the figures who have been lionized are not always figures that we would like to be lionized. The mobilization of masculine virtues and intensity are par for the course in the midst of a war of genodical annihilation, and Ukrainian society has certainly militarized to a significant degree over the course of the last 500 days.
Which is not in any way to engage in Holocaust denial or revisionism. My own Jewish great-grandparents were shot in Belarus in November 1941. Dealing honestly with what some Ukrainians chose to do in the 1930s and 1940s is imperative, so that we can fight honestly and without a pause. I am immensely proud that Tablet recently published John-Paul Himka’s essay on the pogroms in Lviv in 1941. However, it is a fact that today’s Ukrainians, in a time of war, have consolidated their society in a manifestly liberal fashion. We should do the same and stop telling fairy tales about Nazis.
I really have to wonder about people, sometimes.
Is it that hard to work out that the victims of the Holodomor might see the Nazis as the good guys? That the long-standing use of the Jews as the rent-collectors and tax-collectors of the Tsars, periodically given up to the mob as anodynes for the aristocracy, followed by the rather massive Jewish participation in the Holodomor as apparatchiks and bully-boys for the new Soviet regime might, just might have led to a certain negative attitude towards Jews and a fond memory of the Nazis?
This mentality reminds me of a girl I knew, who dated a guy I knew. He’d been subjected to literal decades of psycho-sexual abuse by his mother and older sisters, bad enough that when the authorities found out about it all, mommy dearest went to jail along with the oldest sister. The girl I’m talking about knew all of this; they’d met in therapy. She was still puzzled and outraged that he did not trust women and treated them like crap.
My reaction to that outrage on her part was “Uhhhh… Just what, pray tell, were you expecting…?”
People expecting other people to “just get over things” are assholes. You don’t “fix” issues like that without decades of work, and open acknowledgement of what precisely went wrong. You meet Jews who’re outraged at the way pogroms went down, and then completely fail to understand exactly why it was that Jewry was universally loathed by everyone from the top down. The majority of the Jewish Eastern Europeans I’ve known completely fail to grasp that their centuries of being co-opted by the nobility as bankers, tax collectors, and all the rest of the machinery of peasant exploitation that they enabled left them as handy victims to serve as cut-outs for the peasantry to hate them, not the nobility that was pulling the strings behind them. Not to mention, any time that said nobility got to owing too much to said bankers, then they’d stir up a pogrom or two…
Ain’t none of this going away easily. You want to understand why the Ukrainians have a certain sympathy for Nazis, and an antipathy (mostly on paper, these days…) for Jews and Communists? Go read some damn history, talk to some of the people who lived that crap. I knew an elderly Ukrainian woman who had memories of watching, from her hiding place, her neighbors coming and killing, then eating her mother and siblings. After the village had been stripped of all food by the Communists, led by Jewish cadre from the cities… You wonder why she had a lifetime hatred of Jews, Communists, and her fellow villagers? That sort of memory doesn’t go away overnight, and it isn’t “healed” without significant work. I met her, heard her stories, and I suddenly understood why her grandson had an automatic dislike of both Jews and Communists. Totally unfair to any of the rest of the world’s Jewry, but there you are. I completely understand why the hell things happened the way they did, which doesn’t make it right, but it does inform what we should take away from it, which is that one generation’s inhumanity is almost always visited upon the next, tit-for-tat down the centuries. See the Balkans for even more examples…
Crips and Bloods. 18th Street Gang. Tre Tre Crips. Stick Up Boys. That’s exactly why they exist, too. Not sure he’s making the case he thinks he’s making.
But, yeah, the people who kicked out your enslavers and murderers? I can see it.
I always thought that one of Hitler’s biggest mistakes was in rolling into Ukraine and just shooting up the place instead of “liberating it from the Soviets”. He handed Stalin such a moral win among the locals. Hitler should have held off killing off the Slavs until after he won the war on the Eastern Front and recruited them to help fight the Communists.
But if Hitler had been forward-thinking, he wouldn’t have started WW2 in the first place. Oh well, live and learn.
Unless you’re Hitler. Then you just shoot yourself after destroying what was left in the West.
The President of Ukraine is Jewish – a defining feature of National Socialism is hatred of Jews. Ukraine is not a Nazi state – regardless of the, long dead, fighters in the past that present Ukrainian fighters revere.
The old Hollywood film “Taras Bulba” staring Yul Brunner – back in those days no one thought it was odd that a man from Vladivostok would play a Ukrainian Cossack fighting the Poles, but the film was also a whitewash – the Cossack revolt against Polish rule was marked by sadistic massacres of Jews, all left out of the film. Are we to say that Yul Brunner and Tony Curtis were “Nazis” because they were in a film that left out the dark side of the Ukrainian past? NO – Yul Brunner and Tony Curtis were NOT Nazis.
Modern Ukrainians look back to people who fought Moscow – what these people did to Jewish or Polish civilians is NOT what they admire about them.
Is Ukraine “liberal” – of course not, even before Mr Putin’s invasion there were moves against opposition figures (including people who were NOT pro Russian) – now essentially no dissent is allowed at all, but did Britain during World War II allow dissent? Not much.
The real test will be AFTER the war – will Ukraine be an independent nation with free dissent, or will it become part of the “international community” i.e. part of the international Corporate State, with DEI and ESG and the rest of the creeping totalitarian agenda? I do not know. First the war has to be won.
But ironically enough revering fighters from the past (even fighters with a very dark side) – might save Ukraine from such a fate.
The masculine and Nationalist virtues of Ukrainian fighters over the centuries are the opposite of what the “international community” stands for.
Let us hope for an independent and democratic Ukraine – not under Moscow or Brussels and New York. A Ukraine dominated by independent farmers (after all that is what the Cossacks were) and small business people – this is what Aristotle argued made a good Polity.
Are we to say that Aristotle was a “Nazi”?
Well between Maidan in 2014 & the start of a total war in 2022, actually Ukraine was indeed pretty damn “liberal” (in the non-debased/non-US sense of the word), in that you could say very unflattering things in public about the government without getting your door kicked in by the police.
Yes Perry – but that started to change even before Mr Putin’s invasion. And it was not just pro Russian politicians and media outlets that were targeted – the “anti Oligarch” campaign was used to target other people as well. The objective was clear – to create pro international community media dominance (and pro international community everything else as well). The war has massively speeded this up.
Kirk – the Russians Czars did not normally use Jews as tax collectors and rent collectors, it was the Poles who did that (for a period of their history). There was a basic conflict between the Catholic Poles and the Orthodox Ukrainians – although history is now being changed to fit current needs. That tends to happen to history.
However, I think there will be cultural resistance in an independent Ukraine – in the West we have a “choice” between Marxist (“third wave feminism” is from Frankfurt School Marxism) “Barbie”, and darker tone the-Maxists-were-not-a-threat “Oppenheimer” – some “choice”, a “choice” pink plastic Marxist agitprop and darker tone Marxist agitprop – a “choice” between Marxist agitprop and Marxist agitprop.
I suspect this will not be the road that Ukraine goes down – there is already a lot of push back against “reinterpreting” the Holodomor from a crime of the Marxists (which it was) to a crime of “the Russians” as if Russians were not also victims of the Marxists.
The “reinterpretation” of history by the international Corporate State can only go so far.
I do NOT believe that we will be seeing massive “Pride” marches by Transvestite Ukrainian Cossacks either – what Z. did on television a few years ago was a JOKE, it was not meant seriously as a “new culture” as it is in the collapsing West.
The Putin propaganda line is that if Ukraine wins the war then DEI and ESG also win and Ukraine (and perhaps Russia as well) will collapse into the nightmare that so many American cities are in – but I do not believe that will be the case.
Kiev is NOT going to turn into a Hell Zone like so many American cities. Ukrainian culture is not dominated by unjustified guilt as the West is, and Frankfurt School Marxists are not going to gain the power in Ukraine that they have in the West.
All true, but paradoxically, this is broadly part of the liberalisation process rather than a move against it. Corruption in Ukraine was (& progress not withstanding still is) a major issue, extending to the courts in Kyiv.
The Kremlin Ukraine is Nazi line is part of a relatively childish information operations campaign designed to justify their own military incompetence and their failed invasion. It seems to be largely aimed at the Russian people themselves. As propaganda aimed at the West, it’s utter nonsense.
I do note that some conservative American circles seem oddly entranced with Russia. God knows why. I can accept that isolationism has a long tradition in America and I could understand a pox on both sides, nothing to do with us approach. What I don’t get is the seeming infatuation with the Russian regime, which does nothing for the credibility of the American right of the political spectrum. Perhaps it’s a case of opposing whatever the current US administration is for, even to the extent of supporting Russian aggression against Ukraine?
JJM, the US hasn’t been isolationist since 1941. If anything, we have a very long habit of sticking our nose into situations that we legitimately have no reason to be involved with for reasons no one in DC can quite articulate without falling back on tired old slogans.
As for why we have an issue with Russia, that whole Cold War mindset coupled with a military-industrial complex Ike warned us about demands a bad guy here and now. China might be on the horizon, but we need a bad guy to justify paying for all those great (and expensive) toys we get from LockMart and Boeing and General Dynamics and others. We had Iraq and Afghanistan and ISIS and the Taliban and a War on Terror, but that’s in the rearview mirror and Putin, rather timely, decided to get the band back together.
Perry – I disagree, unless we are defining the word “liberalisation” differently. I believe that government intervention makes corruption worse rather than better – institutionalises it under the Corporations and the government itself. As for other corruption – President Z. had plenty of time to expose the corruption of Joseph Biden, President Z., or other people acting for him, made a decision not to do so. That was well before the present war.
Steven R. – the United States could not have survived in a world controlled by the Marxists, so it had every reason to engage in the Cold War. As for Mr Putin – he has made his own choices, he has acted wrongly and foolishly. He did not have to attack Ukraine, he chose to so – he was not forced to by American weapons companies.
Nor is the threat of the PRC just “on the horizon” – it is here.
If the threat of the People’s Republic of China and other powers, did not exist – then I would agree that the accused Federal Government (the D.C. crowd) should be done-away-with. Or that States should secede – as, yes, the Federal Government (and the banks and corporations that depend on its Credit Money) is an abomination.
By the way – the idea that arms makers make the decisions on war or peace is a myth. It became fashionable as far back as the First World War – but it is false.
So when the institutions of state… even the courts… are utterly corrupt & indeed infested with people on the payroll of a hostile govt in occupation of parts of your nation, how exactly do you make this better? Please, tell me how.
The current suspension of politics as usual caused by Ukraine being in a total war is a one-off chance to change everything for the better.
Indicating Zelenskyy isn’t an utter idiot. The idea there is any upside whatsoever for the govt of Ukraine in getting involved in the internal politics of the USA is batshit crazy.
“Ukrainian society has certainly militarized to a significant degree over the course of the last 500 days.”
Well, I didn’t know it, but turns out that Ukraine imposed a ban on foreign travelling for males aged 18-60. They did that the moment the war started, 500 days ago. That is – they practically locked in all males in the country. A practice learned from their URSS past.
That’s why, as Perry pointed out, 80% of the 8 million people fleeing the Ukraine in 2022 were women and children.
“it is a fact that today’s Ukrainians, in a time of war, have consolidated their society in a manifestly liberal fashion.”
Not so sure about that….
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/world/europe/ukraine-war-divorce.html
Yes it is, warts and all. But it is also in the midst of a total war, an existential war of national survival. Most people would regard Israel as a liberal society (particularly compared to its neighbours). Israel also has conscription from the same reason Ukraine does.
What i find most revealing is that Ukrainian young men have been returning to Ukraine to fight, even pop and sport stars; while Russian young men have been trying to escape from Russia.
Of course, there are some people who believe that it is the CIA(++) that created the illusion that Ukraine is worth fighting for, while “Russia” (Putin, actually) is not.
I do not think it worthwhile to debate with people who think that other people can be persuaded to risk their lives by CIA propaganda.
“Israel also has conscription from the same reason Ukraine does.”
Israel has conscription like most countries have, or had. But it never banned travel, or leaving the country. It is not even remotely comparable.
(eg. Switzerland).
Because Israel’s full blown wars have been relatively short, meaning travel was typically impossible when they happened anyway.
But if one leaves the country when conscripted, can he return to Israel without ending up in prison?
If yes, then there is no real conscription.
And if not, then there is freedom to leave the country, but not to return.
Snorri:
But if one leaves the country when conscripted, can he return to Israel without ending up in prison?
—————–
Hasn’t happened yet – I mean, no major test cases. Typically even permanent emigres fly back to serve.
That is one of the cultural red lines that the current “freedom fighters” on the Israeli Left have crossed – threatening to refuse service if the elected government does not suspend its (much-needed) reforms of a runaway judiciary. This has probably lost them most of the support they could have hoped to garner with their protests.
As both an American and a Jew, I see no reason for the US to be involved in this… anti-Semitism is tightly intertwined with Ukrainian nationalism going back to Chmelnitsky in the 17th century. It’s no accident that Ukrainians were brought in to do the actual killing at Babi Yar and other massacres, and to staff other camps.
Neither of these historically brutal, oligarchic countries have any history of liberal democracy – and do not seem interested in it, or likely to build the culture of trust, honor, and restraint that is necessary to sustain democracy… Forget the Jews – they aren’t very nice to each other!
Let them have at each other. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.
If Europeans feel threatened by Russia they should put on their big-boy pants and leave American soldiers out of it. You could start by not appointing clueless young feminists as your defense ministers.
Which has has very little to do with Ukraine circa 2023, or did you fail to notice that bastion of anti-Semitism elected Zelenskyy, who happens to be Jewish? I get the impression your understanding of Ukraine ends in 1945.
The parallel universe you blew in from sounds interesting, but in this one there are no US soldiers or indeed any NATO soldiers fighting in Ukraine. Moreover, US support for Ukraine is not an exercise in altruism, it is defending an international order the USA dominates & wants to continue to dominate.
And what this war in actually about is a critical mass of Ukrainians rejected the brutal, oligarchic model and turned to the west in 1991 and decisively so in 2014. This was intolerable for Russia, which could tolerate & understand an oligarchic Ukrainian satellite state, but not a truly independent westward oriented Ukraine.
Perry:
I get the impression your understanding of Ukraine ends in 1945.
—————-
It is based on the ongoing commentary and opinion I get from actual Soviet and Ukrainian emigres, including gentiles who get in to Israel if they can claim a single Jewish grandparent. And the extensive Israeli news reports that cater to them… One of the cleaning ladies in the office has a son who went back to fight.
I can’t count the conversations I’ve had where ex-Soviets scoff at what they consider the naivete of Americans and other Westerners who operate according to the rules of what we’d call a freedom/guilt-based culture…. never having experienced it, they just don’t believe it. They are always looking for the catch/conspiracy.
I have similar conversations with Palis and other Arabs.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear_spectrum_of_cultures
It is a waste to try and give these people the gift of democracy. We saw that up close with the Palis…. I admire the Poles who seem to sincerely want to build such a society.
more Perry:
US support for Ukraine is not an exercise in altruism, it is defending an international order the USA dominates & wants to continue to dominate.
—————-
It’s the result of corruption, not considered, self-interested policy.
Most Americans have already concluded that the current administration is continuing the Gramscian destruction of American that began to be practiced with brazen openness during the Obama administration.
The people in DC sending the Ukrainians aid don’t care much for the USA, and do not want it to dominate the international order. And/or they are so decadent they can’t think further than their immediate self-interest.
It’s not a gift, I know people who were in Maidan in 2014 & no one gave them anything, they took it themselves by force from people using force to deny it to them. Wandering around Kyiv, my chum showed me how & where they kept the protestors supplied with food & drink for so long with a series of clever ruses. Ukrainians did this themselves.
Same is true in Ukraine.
A lot of people in USA (not to mention Europe, particularly central Europe) see it very differently.
The Poles have a stronger tradition of constitutionalism than most other Europeans, the main exceptions being arguably the Swiss, the (northern) Italians, the Dutch, and the English.
(One could add the Icelanders, since their constitutional tradition died long ago in practice, but lives on in the Sagas.
The Nordics in general have a strong sense of equality before the Law — actually holding the ruling class to higher standards than those applicable to bums like your truly.)
PS: I think that i get the joke in Perry’s embedded picture, but let me sleep over it.
Perry’s comparison to conscription in Israel is wrong and irrelevant.
Ukraine’s total ban on foreign travel by all males is a strong totalitarian act. No getting around that.
Jacob:
A soldier will be convicted of treason – desertion – if he abandons his duty.
Perhaps, in a country under siege in an existential fight to the death, all citizens take on that same duty to their home nation on the principle that everyone must be a soldier in such circumstances?
Zelensky is doing what Lincoln did… That which was necessary to preserve the nation he found himself leading. Whatever measures he takes will be justified by the end-state of it all, and what he does after. If he sets himself up as “President for Life”, that’s one thing. It’s another entirely if he does as Washington did, and pulls a Cincinnatus act.
Personally, given the situation Ukraine is in? I am willing to cut Zelensky some slack. If he manages to beat the Russians off, and gets Ukraine into a stable situation post-war? The man’s a saint. If not? He’s a scoundrel. Only time will tell.
I love all the moral preening people do over this… As if there weren’t venal bastards surrounding and among the Founding Fathers of the United States. The real test isn’t whether they’re utterly saintly, but if they mostly do the right thing. Anyone ever look at the liquor bills Washington submitted to the Continental Congress…? The man and his officers could drink…
Ya want saints as leaders? Read fiction; they’re rather scarce on the ground in actual fact.
Kirk – yes (although as Ukraine has exercised its right of secession President Z. is more Robert E. Lee or George Washington than he is Lincoln), the test will be after the war is won (if it is won) – will President Z give up talk of “joining the E.U.” and allow opposition television stations (without “Ofcom” style censorship) and allow political parties he does not like (President Lincoln allowed an election during the Civil War – and had Atlanta not been taken Lincoln would have LOST that election), and, yes, allow Churches he does not like?
The same is true of Mr Putin who has been violating freedom in many ways for many years – long BEFORE the war. The Daily Telegraph (which is strongly pro Ukraine) reports that opposition candidates are doing well in the campaign for the Russian local elections in September – if they do not win Joseph Biden style election rigging may well be at work by Mr Putin
By the way Perry – the Marxist Soviet Union was nothing to with “Russian Imperialism”, indeed Russians were the first victims of the Marxists, including the soldiers of the Latvian Rifles who “Lenin” bought with stolen gold.
This war is against Mr Putin, it is not against the Russian people – after all President Z. is a native Russian speaker himself. He is no more a “blood” Ukrainian than I am – by “blood” he is far closer to me than to them.
To put it in terms of “Doctor Who” (before that programme was ruined by the “Woke”) – he may be on the Planet Skaro and leading the Thals – but he is not one of these tall blond people, I am not either.
Which makes it all the more absurd that Mr Putin keeps calling him a “Nazi” – President Z does NOT want to gas himself.
Much depends on who these opposition figures are.
Are they Commies?
Were they pals with Zhirinovsky?
Good points Snorri.
Every time a person in the west writes something like this, you can almost hear millions of eyes in Central & Eastern Europe rolling. I know you wish this was true, Paul, but it really isn’t. I also wish it was true, because it would make this all much simpler, a problem that could be solved with a single 7.62mm round. But sadly Russia & its political culture are the problem.
There is a reason you often see Russian vehicles in Ukraine since the invasion in 2022 flying the Soviet flag. That is also why the Ukrainians are removing the hammer and sickle symbol from the “Motherland” statue in Kyiv right now, because they see what you can’t.