Current national myth of Russia & the core of Putins ideology is the lie about Russia as liberator. All of us between Russia and Germany are watching Ukraine being liberated and hope that for once the West understands that this is how the Russian liberation has always looked like. This is what was done to us either in 1918-21 or 1939-45 or both. And it kept going until 1991. And it began again in 2008 and the West pretended, again, that it was not happening.
Germans have apologised for 80 years but I still felt a bit uneasy listening to Scholtz saying: wir werden uns remilitarisieren. Thankfully, for once, the Germans r on the right side of things because even there, after 80 years, the demons are not entirely dead under the surface.
So. No. It’s not about Putin. It is very much about the state of Russian society. It’s not Russians’ “fault”, there are too many factors, but to fix this means a process of national breakdown, regrouping, redemption and re-education for, well, 80 years.
It can only be done by the Russians themselves and the best thing we can do is not get in there to tell them how. Because we don’t know better. All that is needed is help Ukraine win, set strict cold war rules relating to Russia until the war crimes have been tried, by them, and a representative government is in office. Let them demilitarise. And then take it slow. Very slow
Are they? Or have the roles just reversed? 1930s/40s Germany->Fascist, USSR-> International Socialist. 2020 Germany->International Socialist, Russia->Fascist.
It’s not that I don’t trust “Germans”. I don’t trust collectivist ideologies, and I don’t see that Germany *isn’t* that today.
We do, we just don’t follow what we know to be right.
“Russification.” A great word for crossword puzzles and readers of 19th century history books. I would suggest Peter the Great is the source of this ideology.
Where it seems to me Mr Putin is a clear improvement on Stalin: he “only” wants to Russify Slavs and former Russian controlled territories. We have the People’s Republic of China to thank, in part, for Mr Putin’s more limited ambitions. At least, it is an improvement for non-Slavs and for those living a long way from Russia (and China).
The newly-independent Ukrainian government’s mistake was of course unilateral nuclear disarmament in exchange for a verbal promise from US President Bill Clinton. I expect Mr Joe Biden to either sell-out or dither so long Mr Putin actually wins, as Stalin eventually prevailed against Finland in 1940. At least Britain and France organised (very slowly) a military force to support Finland, not like the virtue signalling of today.
A large aggressive dog has run into my neighbor’s back yard and is savaging his kids. I run over and help him fight it off. It runs back to its kennel in the next yard. I do not pursue, but instead I allow the dog’s owner to address this problem dog because I don’t know the dog as well as he does.
??
Sorry, no. Dog owner lost the benefit of the doubt with the first savaging. We’ll take it from here, or at least we’ll closely supervise what happens next. When an entire nationality buys into a harmful-to-others fiction, it’s time to educate and insist.
Isn’t going to happen. I believe Putin will take the Ukraine, China will then move on Taiwan and we won’t do anything but set sanctions that will hurt us more than them. Look at North Korea as an example of what Russia and China could do. The elites are fine the people are not. It’s the same all over the world but not quite at the same level, yet.
It’ll then settle down, Putin will live, die or be pushed and after a while we will relax the sanctions. In the meantime hope your wind turbine is turning fine because for the next few years we will be feeling the cold.
Anything else will lead to WWIII. I don’t think we will get there but if we do it will be because of something the West does.
“The words of this wizard stand on their heads . . . In the language of Orthanc help means ruin, and saving means slaying, that is plain.” (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers)
The most important thing is the overthrow or Mr Putin.
For many years there have been efforts to make friends with him, remember the absurd Hillary Clinton (President Obama’s Secretary of State) with her “Reset” – and her fawning on Mr Putin (she later smeared Donald John Trump for what she herself was guilty of), but they always fail. Just as Mr Biden’s war on American energy (the effort of the Biden/Harris Administration to attack American energy and give Mr Putin a stranglehold on energy supplies) amused Mr Putin, but did NOT win his friendship.
One can not make friends with Mr Putin – he is a mass murderer, who has his opponents (in Russia and elsewhere) poisoned or shot. Mr Putin must go.
As for the words of Mr Kross that “it is NOT about Mr Putin” (my emphasis) that it is about Russians (but it is “not their fault” – because they are, according to Mr Kross, inferior beings who do not know any better, essentially animals), I can not think of anything that would please the Communist Party Dictatorship of the People’s Republic of China more – it has long been their aim for the West and Russia to be enemies. In truth Saint Petersburg and Vladivostok are as much part of Western civilisation (yes CULTURE – so the “I do not mean Russians as a race – I mean Russian culture” dodge will not work) as Cleveland and Manchester are.
This conflict is with Mr Putin – the Russian people are his victims. Trying to make the conflict about “Russia”, the Russian people (Russian culture) is both despicable – and horribly counter productive. It is exactly what Mr Putin wants – he wants the conflict to be about “Russia” the Russian people (Russian culture), to create the myth (the LIE) that the Russian people (Russian culture) is not part of Western Civilisation – that Russians and (say) British people are natural enemies.
Without knowing it Mr Kross is doing the work of Alexander Dugin.
Yes – Alexander Dugin, who wants there to be a natural conflict between the Russian PEOPLE (Russian culture), and (as stated above) this is also the dream of the Communist Party Dictatorship of the People’s Republic of China – which wants the Russian people and the rest of the West to be enemies (and has supported Mr Putin for some TWENTY YEARS to achieve this objective).
I am reminded of the campaign of despicable lies pushed by the German government in BOTH wars that the conflicts were a “War of Cultures” – that, somehow, Germans were not part of Western civilisation – indeed that the Germans were the natural ENEMIES of the West.
The lies that were pushed by the German government in BOTH World Wars (that the war was a “war of cultures” that there were no universal values, no objective moral right and moral wrong) was denounced as early as 1914 by President Poincare of France (a philosopher) – who pointed out that the German Declaration of War on France in 1914 was deliberately a collection of wild lies (as he pointed out – it could have been far more plausible if the German government had written it in different language) to make a philosophical point – this philosophical point being German “Historicism” in philosophy – the denial of objective moral right and moral wrong, the denial of objective and universal moral principles.
This Mr Kross seems to be moving from “Germany” and “the Germans” to “Russia” and “the Russians” – he is pretending that Russians are some sort of space alien, that they are the natural enemies of universal and objective moral principles, but it is “not their fault” because Russians are inferior beings. I condemn this claim of Mr Kross.
This conflict is with the regime of Mr Putin – it is NOT a conflict with the Russian people. The Russian people are the victims of Mr Putin.
I repeat – the claims of Mr Kross are exactly what Mr Putin (and Alexander Dugin) and the Communist Party Dictatorship of the People’s Republic of China (our true enemy) wish to hear.
The West has no chance of long term survival against the People’s Republic of China, NONE, without an alliance with Russia, the Russian people. Claiming that this conflict is NOT about Mr Putin, but is a conflict with the Russian people, cuts off any chance of that.
Mr Kross is, essentially, writing the Death Warrant of what is left of Western Civilisation. The West has long been in terrible decline (indeed may well be dying) – but it still has a chance, if there is a real friendship and cooperation with the Russian people. Vicious racist abuse, such as that written Mr Kross – cuts off the chance of that.
Lastly the Chinese people are NOT our enemies either – they have been mislead (lied to – systematically lied to) by the Communist Party Dictatorship for the best part of a century.
The Chinese are just as much human beings as we are – they to (in their souls) are capable of knowing moral right from moral wrong (universal moral right and wrong) – the tragedy is the evil regime that rules them (and has slaughtered so many millions of Chinese people).
But as for writing as if Russians were somehow aliens – somehow inherently different from Germans or British people or Americans…. I condemn such abuse, I condemn it in the strongest possible terms.
Yes – these words by Mr Kross might has well have been written by Mr Putin or by Alexander Dugin.
They are exactly what Mr Putin and Alexander Dugin (and the Communist Party Dictatorship of the People’s Republic of China) would want written.
The West (Western society, Western culture) has been in terrible decline for many years – but it still lives, it is not yet dead. Such words as those of Kr Kross are, if followed, the Death Warrant of the West.
“The West (Western society, Western culture) has been in terrible decline for many years – but it still lives, it is not yet dead.”
Nonsense, its as dead as a doornail. If it weren’t we’d not be in the mess we are. We all know what has to be done in response to all this (remilitarise, repatriate food/energy/manufacturing to within the West) but we won’t do any of it (apart from a bit of half hearted extra pork barrel defence spending) because the powers that be want the complete opposite of the rest – they want the West denuded of all energy/food/manufacturing capacity in the name of ‘saving the planet’.
Sorry Paul, you are wrong. I would *love* for this to be just about Putin, that would vastly simplify the calculations we all need to make, but sadly it just isn’t true. Putin is a manifestation of something bigger than Putin, and that ‘something’ Kross describes will only end if those dreams are attrited into gory paste on the Ukrainian steppes, with young Russian soldiers being burned alive in their vehicles by a storm of NLAWs, Javelins and Bayraktar drones. And this will happen at a fearsome cost in Ukrainian blood. But if history shows us anything, it is that Russians respect only strength and hate a loser.
No Perry, I am not wrong.
But if I am wrong – then it is best you close down Samizdata as “Jim” would be correct, that there is no hope for the West.
If the problem is the Russian people, not Mr Putin – then there is no hope for the West, none.
I repeat that the Chinese people are human beings – they are NOT natural enemies, but the Communist Party Dictatorship in China is an entrenched system (not just one man and his cronies – as the Russian dictatorship is) it is not going away any time soon.
The PRC has had a higher industrial output (“GDP” only impresses people who do not know it means spending – consumption) than the United States since 2014, and now utterly dwarfs the United States.
If the Russian people, not Mr Putin, is the problem – then the People’s Republic of China will dominate this Earth. For the only hope for the survival of the dying West is with the Russian people (with them – not in opposition to them).
This is true of the Ukrainian people as well.
Mr Putin is the problem – as so is Mr Kross. For they are much the same.
I have to agree with Perry here. Russia, like China, the USA (not so much now), like Imperial Britain (many years ago), like Ancient Rome is not just about being but about meaning. There is an over-arching national myth. These countries don’t just have to be something but mean something.
That those myths vary in their essential nature (and certainly in their malignancy) doesn’t make them any less powerful. It could be smug superiority (China springs to mind here*), a missionary zeal to “civilize” the “natives”, being able to buy a Coke in every one-goat town in Uganda or whatever but it matters. In Russia’s case it is a fervant belief driven by a massive inferiority complex that goes back at least as far as Peter the Great’s attempt to drag Russia kicking and screaming out of the Dark Ages.
Right now Putin (described, I suspect quite correctly, as a Romantic** in his youth) sees Russia’s and therefore his own manifest destiny in creating a Greater Slavic Empire with a power and glory to humble the West. That he is genuinely popular in Russia shows quite how deeply this strikes a chord with the soul of a lot of Russians.
Yes, he is messianic (this is not Realpolitik in Ukraine – this is a Crusade) but messiahs get nowhere without being able to tap into something that is already there. That is why he is President and not a street-ranter.
*A very large part of the reason for The Great Wall was to define “China” and “Not China”.
**I don’t mean that in the sense of extravagent gifts on Feb 14th… I mean it in the same way Hitler got all into das Volk and all that malarkey.
Fair enough then NickM.
That is the end of the West.
It may be that, at some point in the future, the Chinese people (who are just as much human beings as we are) will overthrow the totalitarian dictatorship that will dominate the world – but we will not live to see it.
The only hope for the survival of the West was with (with – not in opposition to) the Russian people – and according to the vicious racist ravings of Mr Kross, that hope does-not-exist. If the problem is the Russian people “not Mr Putin”, then there is no point is discussing anything else.
No point, because it is (if it is “not” Mr Putin that is the problem – if it is the Russian people) “game over” for what little is left of liberty in this world – at least in our life times.
This kind of language reminds me of Black Lives Matter rhetoric, especially ‘re-education’.
It also reminds me of the Bernie Sanders activist who was a little too indiscreet to a undercover reporter:
Oh FFS Paul, if you think Kross’ description is much the same problem, where to even begin? Very few people east of the Oder-Neiss line & west of Russia would disagree with Kross.
Also, I suspect much (but by no means all) of China’s strength is an illusion, or perhaps paper tiger would be a more appropriate term, but that is an entire different discussion not relevant to this one.
Take your western googles off. He is talking about Russia needing the equivalent of de-Nazification.
Well who would do the equivalent ‘de-nazification’ in Russia? If Russians are as irredeemable as you’re making out it would have to be foreigners. In Germany it was the occupation armies who pursued de-nazification(the Soviets in the East. Mainly the US in the west, as the British and French didn’t particularly pursue it with any fervour and abandoned it quickly). The equivalent of German denazification in Russia would likely have to be done by an occupation army, which would mean ‘the west’, so the western goggles are required.
As Kross indicated, this needs to be a Russian thing. And that will only happen if Putin and what he represents fails in Ukraine at great cost.
Then why bring up the German de-nazification comparison? That was driven by occupying powers imposing it, not by the German populace.
Also amusing that I was accused of having ‘western goggles’ when the original post itself cites a western example as a model!
mate, you’re on drugs. i’m half-ukrainian/half-polish, so same ‘race’ as the russians, but very different culture. Like the article says, the problem is russian culture/national myth.
Eastern Europe did the equivalent of de-Nazification (with varying degrees of vigour) post-communism, lustrating sections of the state’s political infrastructure. Russia did no such thing. I brought up de-nazification because Kross did.
This, however, leads to various ironies. As the two countries that have pursued rooting out ex-Communist influence the most (Hungary and Poland) are treated as pariahs by most of ‘the west’ for doing this.
Kross’s issue seems to be with Russian culture as opposed to Communism (which, despite it being utter disgusting ideology, is a western philosophy) anyway so I don’t think decommunisation in Eastern Europe offers a useful model for him either.
Such pariahs that they are in NATO & the EU. We must have very different definitions of pariah. Yes, the wokesters & assorted establishment scum get the vapours due to various aspects of Poland & Hungarian politics, but perhaps you overestimate the important of that kind of socio-political flatulence.
But actually, the country that pursued rooting out ex-Communist influence the most is the Czech Republic.
I have to disagree. Facing the past & its brutal failures what was de-nazification & de-communization were about. Russia’s nationalist imperialism is most certainly an ideology deeply rooted in Russian culture.
Er, these people control the European Union, the United States, and practically every multinational corporation and major NGO, so I am wary ‘overestimating’ them. The EU has applied sanctions on both Hungary and Poland. That they aren’t quite the extent the ones imposed on Russia doesn’t exactly mean they are treating Hungary or Poland as friends or equal partners.
You’ve proven my point. If Russian culture is the problem, then decommunisation in places like Poland and Czech Republic are pretty worthless models. Decommunisation in those countries could be presented as a nationalist project as communism was imposed by a foreign occupier.
Lord T by this point in the invasion of Poland, Warsaw had fallen and the war was over. The Russian don’t even control half of the area east of Dnieper. Russia is half way though its ability to wage war and Bellorussia is turning on them.
Nope. Like Kross said, it has to be something Russians do to Russia. And as I said earlier, Russian respect strength but hate losers. If the Afghanistan debacle was the final straw that brought down the Soviet Union (note the lack of an invading army: Russians brought down the Soviet Union), a debacle in Ukraine might be what finally derails Russian imperial pretentions as manifested in the Z-narrative right now.
The west is vastly more forgiving of its own losers than the Russians.
Meh, big deal. They are still part of the single market & NATO, still part of Schengen, so frankly it is so much fart gas emanating from the political rectum that is Brussels.
I see no point in arguing with Paul Marks or Martin on this, but people more amenable to reason might want to look at this video on youtube (or the original version in Finnish with subtitles, just to enjoy the sound of the Finnish language).
Or read the transcript (reachable by clicking on “…” under the video).
I’d like to point out that both Eerik Kross and Martti Kari speak Russian and have worked in the intelligence services of their countries.
It seems to me that Martti Kari is actually more pessimistic than Eerik Kross. I myself am about as optimistic as Kross. Kari digs deeper into the past, and that is good; but he seems to ignore the positive, such as the Novgorod Republic, Tsar Alexander I (who abolished serfdom over here), and Yegor Gaidar.
But what do I know??
Seems a big ‘maybe’. Previous defeats seem to have often been been followed by either more nationalistic successors (Yeltsin was more a Russian nationalist than Gorbachev was (following Afghanistan), and Putin is more nationalistic than Yeltsin (following First Chechen war)) or Bolshevism (1917).
Indeed it is, I accept that. But a success in Ukraine will without a doubt embolden them to keep pushing.
Paul,
Why is Russia so vital to “The West” (however that may be defined – considering it frequently includes places like Japan and South Korea, and, obviously, Australasia)? Considered merely in terms of population Russia is a significant potential element but I cannot see it as pivotal. I also think you underestimate the importance of cultural soft-power. The enemies of “The West” don’t and it scares them. That is why Xi in China nixxed Winnie the Pooh. A hyper-power scared of a fictional “bear of very little brain” who just loves hunny! And Putin did look like Dobby the House Elf – he now looks like Dobby the Fat Elf. That scares him as well. Tyrants can take anything except ridicule. Memes like that are worth a whole wing of stealth bombers.
As for the cultural side….
The only chance the West has of defeating “Woke”, Frankfurt School, Marxism – is in alliance with the Russian people, Russian culture. But if the problem is NOT Mr Putin – if it is the Russian people themselves who are inherently evil (the basic culture being evil) as the post claims, then there is no hope – none.
If the problem is NOT Mr Putin – if the problem is the Russian people themselves, then there is no cultural hope for the West. Nothing to stop the Progressives (such as Mr Biden) with their sexual mutilation (“Trans Rights”) for eight year old children, and all the rest of it.
Faced with the prospect of an increasingly “Woke”, Frankfurt School, Marxist West – then conquest and enslavement by the tyranny that is the Communist Party of the People’s Republic of China, might even be the lesser evil. But, lesser evil or not, a “Woke” (i.e. Frankfurt School Marxist) West can not stand – such a society is doomed, and rightly so.
My own view is that it is Mr Putin who is evil – not that it is the Russian people themselves (Russian culture) who are inherently evil. But if I am wrong – then there is no hope for the West.
It must be remembered that Frankfurt School “Woke” Marxism, which increasingly dominates the West, was never intended to be a new society – it was intended as a WEAPON to destroy the existing society. This is what it is doing.
In the end it leads to nothing but DESTRUCTION.
These are the people you think will stand with us against China?
If you think we need the Russian people, away with you & your meaningless defeatism. We need counter-revolution in west, not reliance on poisonous influence of Russia for fear of China. Appropriate I read on this very blog description (my motto now, even on a t-shirt): ‘socialism for fear of fascism is like suicide for fear of death’. Same is true about looking to Russia for fear of China.
Poniatowski.
I reject and condemn racist bigotry against the Russian people (or, come to that, against the Chinese people) – and the effort to disguise such racist bigotry as “just” an attack on Russian culture, is no good.
The West most certainly includes such cities as Saint Petersburg or Vladivostok – just as much as Manchester or Cleveland.
People who think that we can just throw the Russian people under the bus for another “80 years” are both morally wrong, and practically unwise.
The idea that we can just allow the People’s Republic of China Communist Party Dictatorship to dominate Russia (via their deluded “friend” Mr Putin) is horribly unwise – as well as morally wrong.
Fascism is a form of socialism – and I wish to save Russia from Collectivism. Both for moral reasons – and for reasons of practical advantage (necessity).
Self interest and moral interest, in this case, coincide.
With the benefit of hindsight the mental confusion of Mr Putin was obvious – it can be seen, for example, in his response to Covid 19.
Other dictators, such as the dictator of Belarus or the dictator of Nicaragua, basically ignored Covid 19 – and a rational person could see that the disease was not destroying Belarus or Nicaragua (or Sweden or Japan – or anywhere else that did NOT lockdown).
But Mr Putin (and the Tribal Collectivist Alexander Dugin) tried to enforce one of the harshest lockdowns on the planet – and started “vaccinating” people who stuff that had hardly been tested at all.
Many Russians ignored such antics – as Russians tend to have a very cynical view of the state (at least in private).
In this ordinary Russians are wise – and people in other lands should have the same (private) cynical view of the state.
As for this bizarre idea that Russians and Ukrainians (who have much the same history) are different species – that ordinary Ukrainians are part of the West, but ordinary Russians are not.
Someone who really holds that opinion really is away with the Elves and Pixies.
Both Russia and the Ukraine are deeply corrupt (so is the United States – very corrupt indeed) – but Mr Putin is a special case, he is a menace and he must go.
The problem is Mr Putin – NOT the ordinary Russian people (who are the VICTIMS of the propaganda of Mr Putin).
It should be pointed out that Alexander Dugin supports a lockdown RIGHT NOW – he really is crazy, he is in the mists of madness.
His admirers on the internet – please note.
“But he is against Wokeness” – that he opposes one form of insanity does not mean he is not insane, he just has another form of insanity (in his case – Tribal Collectivism).
Then you are full of the usual western idiocy you think you oppose. I am same race as Russians, yet you cry “racist” when confronted with hard truth.
How is that expression? Good luck with that. You fly in the face of history
I’m guessing you’ve never met many ordinary Russian people in real world face to face. Go east, spend some time, then come back & we’ll see what you still think.
On a sort of related front, the Wall Street Journal ($), in urging the West to do more to support Ukraine (and rightly so), has this to say https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-can-win-with-enough-help-biden-nato-jake-sullivan-putin-russia-zelensky-11648072921?mod=trending_now_opn_3 :
The political class in much of the West is, by and large, a joke: feckless, often corrupt, worried about the wrong things, avoiding telling the truth, beholden to a sort of precautionary principle, or “safetyism”. I hope that events might stiffen certain spines a bit.
We can but hope