I was going to write about the unconscionable Russian attacks on Georgia and how it is more important than ever to confront and isolate Russia and impose a cost on Russian imperialism… but then I read this article by Marko Hoare, who has written some great things in the past on the Balkan conflict, and he says much of what I would have…
This is not a case of Moscow supporting the right of national majorities to secede – the Abkhaz have no majority, not even a plurality, in Abkhazia. Nor is it a case of Moscow supporting the right of autonomous entities of the former Soviet Union to secede – Moscow has extended the same support to the separatists of Transnistria, which enjoyed no autonomous status in the USSR, while denying the right to secede of the Chechen Republic. This is simply a case of naked Russian imperialist expansionism. It is Georgia which is fighting to establish its independence, and Georgia which deserves our support. Georgia is a staunch ally of the West; the third largest contributor of troops to the allied coalition in Iraq. A Russian defeat of Georgia would be a tremendous setback for the West’s credibility and moral standing; it would increase Russian control of our energy supplies and encourage further Russian acts of aggression in the former Soviet Union.
We cannot afford to back down before this act of Russian imperialist aggression. We should defend Georgia with all the means at our disposal. We should send troops to bolster her. We should threaten Russia with sanctions. Heroic Georgia is fighting our fight; she is defending the freedom and security of democratic Europe.
Amen.
Well, while I tend to agree, Saakashvili has been a bit of an idiot here. Challenging Russia in this way is not what I would call wise.
I agree with you Perry.
My country is one more time agressed by The Northern Bear and the “civilized” world lets tham to do it.
What makes this actually rather harder for the West is that this is not a “new Cold War”, as is being said by some. Russia is no longer enticing ideological support from idiot Westerners. This is old-fashioned imperial territorial expansion, bringing a faraway empire a tiny bit nearer, but still very far away from most of the West’s voters.
Appeasement is a bad policy when there is no limit to the demands being appeased, the judgement that was eventually made about Hitler. But are Putin’s demands unlimited? Perhaps, actually, given a soft response now, and for a few more years, Russian demands might become rather grand and expansive. But just now such a scenario seems implausible.
I suspect that Russia will have to pull several more stunts like this, and to start making noises about reconquering, say, Eastern Europe, before anyone in these parts will feel threatened. Which is all very bad luck for the Georgians.
Mr Hoare should put his money where his mouth is and, I dunno, volunteer for the frontline. After all, now that Krajina and Kosovo are thankfully (Serb-)free, his services are needed elsewhere.
…but who started this shooting war? It was the Georgians, wasn’t it? If you kick a nest of wasps, you will get stung.
Back in 1956, the Soviets went into Hungary and the British couldn’t say jack shit, because they were busy with the Suez invasion. The current Anglo-American adventures in the Middle East have made the world more dangerous. Also, the West recognised Kosovo, which breaks all those international rules, which are supposed to be important. Russia can look to the bombing of Serbia in 1999 and say they’re doing the same.
It is quite obvious that Russia has been destabilising South Ossetia,whose people are not ethnic Russians.
Who armed the separatists who have been attacking Georgia ? Russia distributed passports to the people of South Ossetia.
What were Russian “Peace keepers doing in SO.Were they military advisors?
No this war is about oil,the Baku-Tbilis-Ceyhan pipleine,if Russia controls that she will have a stranglehold on Europe’s energy supplies.
This is a re-run of the Sudetenland.
No. Russian has been working to disassemble Georgia for years and when Georgia tries to reverse that, that means ‘they’ started it? I don’t think so.
OK, South Ossetia can join Russia if Chechnya can leave. Deal Pooty Poot? It’s opening a whole can of worms which could see central Eurasia turn into an an eternal battlefield. We need Medvedev (Poot’s Mini-Me) clanging around the former republics like a bargain-basement Stalin like a hole in the head.
Can someone please tell Russia they lost the Cold War?
Can someone please tell Russia they lost the Cold War?
It was the Soviets that lost the cold war, not the Russians. This is great power politics now, and the Ruskies are playing to win.
Different kettle of fish completely.
Seems to me that Russia has the West over a barrel (of oil). If they permanently break or seize control of that pipeline which runs through Georgia, the West will have to pay dearly. Oil prices have just started to come down – expect to see them escalate again now.
Darn. Ron Brick just nailed everything I wanted to say and did it with a lot less words. He even got the Sudetenland in there.
This post was rather enlightening. Commenter ‘Max’ had a pretty good synopsis.
Here is a useful map of oil and gas pipelines.
The Georgians did an excellent job of it 15 years ago all by themselves.
I claim no expertise on petrolo-politics (I think I just made that term up!), but looking at the map Midwesterner kindly posted I can’t see that if Russia controls the BTC Pipeline it will materially increase the stranglehold it already has on Europe’s oil supplies. This may be (probably is) naked empire building by old-fashioned military means, but that doesn’t make it our problem. If the EU or any of its member states wants to intervene, have at it, but I certainly don’t want to see the US involved militarily. We have our hands full already, thank you, and this is not our fight.
As Brain said, bad luck for the Georgians.
You might want to check out this map (PDF), Laird.
The countries that have the most to lose if that route is closed is Georgia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and even Kyrgyzstan has a little oil.
When the Georgia route is closed, all of those countries will lose their access to ship oil and gas to the west unless some course can be built through Afghanistan. This is in fact the first and most important domino to fall in reconstructing the Russian empire. You can now expect Russia to be falling all over itself in an effort to bribe or bully Iran. They will resort to the most extreme violence with Iran if there is any sign Iran may offer an alternate route. Russia will probably be dumb enough to help Iran get the bomb if that will keep Iran playing the Russian game. Expect China to cozy along with this extortion racket for the right price.
If we don’t keep Georgia free and West friendly, then we better build a pipeline through Afghanistan and Pakistan. Good luck to whoever tries that.
This is far more serious than a mere pissing fight. This is for real.
I see it rather differently. Russia is very much a paper tiger (though not to its immediate neighbours)
This is indeed a serious business. All the more reason to regret the Anglo-American adventures in the Middle East and Kosovo, which prevent the wonderful West from having anything to say on such matters without sounding completely hollow and hypocritical.
“All the more reason to regret the Anglo-American adventures in the Middle East and Kosovo, which prevent the wonderful West from having anything to say on such matters without sounding completely hollow and hypocritical.”
Yes just as the events of the Gulag,Hungary,Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan make Russia look hypocritical. Of yes,and the man murdered by the Russians in London.
The Gulag? Like Guantalemo Bay only bigger and in the past.
Hungary? Britain was busy invading Egypt at the time, against the will of the British people and based on a tissue of lies, so couldn’t say shit.
Czechoslovakia? Well, I could mention British involvement in the genocide of Biafra, which was going on at that time.
Afghanistan? Okay, you’ve got me there. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was completely indefensible. I’m glad we’d never do anything like that(!)
All governments do this type of shit. That is why, as a libertarian, I wish to see less government power.
“The Gulag? Like Guantalemo Bay only bigger and in the past.”
Guantanamo isn’t a series of death camps.
“Hungary? Britain was busy invading Egypt at the time, against the will of the British people and based on a tissue of lies, so couldn’t say shit.”
What was the excuse for Russians killing Hungarians?
“Czechoslovakia? Well, I could mention British involvement in the genocide of Biafra, which was going on at that time.”
Of please do,Nigerian independence 1960?
“All governments do this type of shit. That is why, as a libertarian, I wish to see less government power.”
Since you seem to exist in a perfect moral equilibrium,you won’t mind if I condemn the Russian imperialism in Georgia?
Just a minute..
South Ossetia is mainly peopled by Russians, is it not? And should they not decide their own future?
Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, and the western world has happily supported the wishes of the Kosovo Albanians. They got what they wanted, and we, as libertarians, upheld that. The whole point of having principles, is to apply them consistently.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this affair the fact remains that Russia can and will do whatever it likes here. The Uk is very much overstretched in Afghanistan and Iraq, George Dubbyah isnt going to commit any more of his forces when he has only months to go, and the EU is just a joke. The UN? even more of a joke.
The timeline does seem to suggest that Georgia started this fight — which was mind-numbingly dumb of them. The broadcasts that Saakashvili made in front of the EU flag (!) suggests what his plan was for preventing the Russians from hitting back. Oh well! That kind of mistake suggests he was getting all his news from the BBC.
Obviously, the EU has neither the will nor the capacity to enter the conflict. Not with winter only a few months away and the EU being the world’s largest fossil fuel importer — much of it gas from Russia. One of the consequence of the relentless negativity of the international press is that the American people have no further interest in helping an ungrateful world either.
Think about it — Russia has to wack the guy who poked her in the eye, simply to make the Ukrainians & Kazakhstanis think twice about trying anything. And if Russia’s forceful put down of Saakashvili makes other politicians think twice before starting wars, there may be some good comes out of the present unpleasantness.
“South Ossetia is mainly peopled by Russians, is it not? And should they not decide their own future?”
They are not ethnic Russian.
Send our troops to fight Georgia?
Surely we have enough on our plate with Iraq and Afghanistan before thinking about marching into World War 3 with Russia.
Nostalgic nails it. Go ahead Europe. Show us what you’ve got.
“Since you seem to exist in a perfect moral equilibrium,you won’t mind if I condemn the Russian imperialism in Georgia?”
I’ve no idea what “moral equilibrium” means to you, but feel free to condemn Russian imperialism. Better still, condemn imperialism in general, including when its practiced by the USA and Britain.
“I’ve no idea what “moral equilibrium” means to you, but feel free to condemn Russian imperialism. Better still, condemn imperialism in general, including when its practiced by the USA and Britain.”
But for some reason you can’t condemn Russian Imperialism?
“Nostalgic nails it. Go ahead Europe. Show us what you’ve got. ”
Sadly,all the EU has is bureaucrats who can only bully their own people.
And for some reason you can’t explain ‘moral equilibrium’.
I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you!
/sarc
Cats attempts to draw a distinction between the CCCP and contemporary Russia. I will gladly do that when the fuckers do that themselves.
They have the same national anthem.
They have a Czar who was in the KGB.
Yes, Soviets=Russia=Romanovs. All bastards hell-bent on their spheres of interference and being generally obnoxious.
They have fighter jets with red stars on them.
They still have dissidents sectioned as mentally ill.
And ya know what? You know what would have me popping champagne corks? The CIA or MI6 take down Pooty-Poot with extreme fucking predjudice. Could they have done it to the house-elf in Beijing? Would have been beautiful! Especially if him howling his dying breath was hacked onto the ChiComs big screens in their birdnest.
The Russian administration (of whatever water) have always been bastards of the first water and they should have been rusticated back to the stone-age in ’91.
The should be no morality when dealing with barbarism. If it means making the fuckers eat their own feet without ketchup then so be it.
Perhaps he is referring to your statement:
Yeah.
Gulag, somewhere between 28,000,000 and 50,000,000 total. Guantanamo camp 775 total.
Gulag, entitled to the ‘protection’ of their guards. Guantanamo, SCOTUS rules they are entitled to the protection of the US Constitution.
Gulag, used to imprison and control the country’s own dissidents. Guantanamo, used to imprison and control suspected non-uniformed enemy soldiers.
But I see your point, these are only token differences and it should be obvious to everyone that equating them is merited.
/sarc
I am probably one of the strongest opponents of Bush’s use of Guantanamo on this site, but even so I think clearly enough to know that equating Guantanamo (even at its worst) with the Gulag is libertarian moonbattery of astonishingly absurd proportions. And Libertarians wonder why nobody takes them seriously!
Absolutely.
The EU (Britain included) is, militarily speaking, totally impotent.
The US is half impotent, half exshausted by two minor conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The West is a paper tiger.
Empty words.
We (the West) are impotent. We will back down.
The Iran coming bomb is a starker instance of the same impotence.
Sad but true.
Midwesterner,
thanks for the explanation. I’ll leave you to the saner counsels of Mike M, who wishes to assassinate the prime minister of a heavily-armed nuclear power, and force the population into cannibalism.
“The West is a paper tiger.”
Russia even more so. We could do something about it, at a cost, but choose not to.
Trooper,
I actually re-edited my post to make it clear I was talking about the ruling class of Russia. Not the general populace.
You perhaps could have done me the courtesy to realise that I comment, and have done for some time on this and other sites as “Nick M”. “Mike M” is a frigment of your imagination.
I didn’t say something which I wish I had included. I am upset and worried about this. I am a European. A full-scale balls-out war on my continent doesn’t fill me with the jolies. And (and I have, I’m sure expressed similar sentiment here before) seriously pissed because at about the age of sixteen the clouds seemed to clear with the end of the Cold War. That year I holidayed in the former Warsaw Pact and the joy of those peoples liberation was wonderful and infectious and quite frankly for the whole insane shooting-match to kick-off again before I’m into my mid thirties is just horrible.
I express myself directly and colourfully and I do this, especially when I’m pissed about something. And make no mistake. I’m pissed about this.
And Mid is right. The Gitmo equation is farcical. Miscarriages of justice happen everyday in the USA (or the UK) but to compare them in scope and intensity and pure malevolence to the gulags is… outrageous.
It is in fact like comparing me using somewhat off-beam language to lamping someone in the face. It is not a million miles away from the former Cricketer Imran Khan stating that the infamous Motoons of Doom wore worse for Muslims than the holocaust was for Jews.
And Mid is also right that such doctrinaire attitudes are one of the reasons libertarians will get nowhere. I know, for example that 1950s Britain (or the USA) was a pretty grim place to be black or female or gay in many ways. I also know that objectively it was light-years ahead of Soviet Russia for these groups or Nazi Germany. In the case of the Sovs read “black” as any number of the Union’s ethnic minorities.
And yes, I call it “Soviet Russia” because a very large part of the Soviet experiment was based upon Russian chauvanism towards the “Lesser Republics”. Peoples the Russians still look down on because they always have. This is why I see a continuum of development from Czarist autocracy to Commie autocracy to Putin and his Mini-Me.
It is very much, the old bastards are out. Let’s welcome the new bastards who are pretty much the same.
A truly liberal Russia which was not attempting to throw it’s weight around in the same way the Czars or the Politburo did would be an enormous force for good. It is potentially a truly great place. Yet this is not Putin’s game plan and it’s truly dispiriting.
I guess everyone has their “summer of love” or whatever, their point where they think it’s changing for the better, permanently. Well I guess mine was the early nineties and I feel betrayed because if our victory in the Cold-War was squandered then, yes, I’m pissed about it. I have friends & relatives in Poland. I am visiting soon. They’re not happy about this old, old shit rearing it’s head yet again.
And yes, I do know a fair bit about Russia.
Reply to Monty
The Ossetians are neither Russian or Georgian, they speak a form of Farsi. But I agree they should be allowed choose their own future, given the Georgians have just tried to ethnically clense them they are highly unlikely to want to remain part of Georgia.
Trooper that really was lame.
Midwesterner wrote:
You obviously don’t get it. The Gulag was OK because it wasn’t set up by a bunch of zionazi neocon jooooooos.
Seriously, the mental gymnastics that big-L Libertarians and moonbats will go to to try to make the USA’s failings morally equivalent to the really nasty things of other regimes is amazing. It might be even more than what scriptwriters in Hollywood were able to do to get around the Production Code — and regardless of their political leanings, Hollywood scriptwriters were capable of some pretty good mental gymnastics.
Ted Schuerzinger says:
“The Gulag was OK because it wasn’t set up by a bunch of zionazi neocon jooooooos.”
Prick. You better not try any mental gynmastics, although you could try to mentally blow yourself.
Nick M,
I too am upset and worried, as this is a very dangerous situation, but, as some of the other posters here seem to be ignoring, Russia did not start this war, Georgia did, when they broke an agreed ceasefire, and now it looks like Russia is going to blow the shit out of them.
Russia has not single-handed turned back the clock to the Cold War era, and as I have said above, the Anglo-US invasions in the Middle East have made the world a more dangerous place. On top of this the Russians can point to the example of Serbia/Kosovo for a very direct comparison.
As for Guantalemo, not to say Abu Graib and other such facilities, nothing in the history of the Gulag makes these things any more acceptable.
Georgia attacked S.Ossetia.
That was incredibly stupid.
Saakashvili speaks in front of an EU flag.
That is unforgivably provocative
and incredibly stupid.
All great powers are imperialist.
It’s what it’s all about.
That’s why they’re great
and Britain isn’t.
During the Cold War & in an effort to understand the Russian mindset, I took a map of the USSR, turned it upside-down & placed it in the middle of the ‘global’ page. Strangely educational!
Ted getting a bit too close to the target, eh?
I am not very impressed by your apologia for Russia’s actions, Trooper. One characteristic I have noted from the so-called anti-war brigade is that they are not so much anti-war per se so much as always willing to “blame the victim” for whatever happens to have occured.
It is also not the case that the world is now more dangerous with the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. One can rightly argue that the invasion of said did not achieve what its proponents claimed, or was done for dishonest reasons. That is a separate, if important, point. What I challenge is your argument, made over and over, that somehow the state of the world is far more dangerous than it was in say, 1990, for example, when Saddam invaded a neighbouring state of Kuwait, lobbed missiles at Israel in order to provoke the latter into war, etc.
The exceedingly rapid response by a disfunctional Russian amry suggest that they were very ready to intervene. I read this as the Russians goaded the South Ossetians to provoking the Georgia in a fight Russia intended to finish.
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You stupid minds strongly washing your lieyng mass-media and zombo-TV, if you or your warrior comm to war into earth Russia we are kicked up you ass!
You amerikans nation like oil parasits all world! For Oil and money you intervented into all other country into the world – like it be in Irak/ and world not forgive you!
Gabriel, is that you?
russinwerwolf
We have zombie media! Jeez that’s rich.
Oil and money huh? What like Russian antics over pipelines and such. Obviously Russia has never intervened in another country apart from half of Europe and all over the gaff to numerable to list.
So you reckon Russia can kick the USA’s ass?
See what I mean about this never changing. It’s Nikita Kruschev banging his shoe on the table again.
Russia will likely take Georgia, seeking specific commercial objectives of interest to the present ruling class in Russia. Problems will arise in holding Georgia and holding Georgians. The adverse impacts on those who have been benefiting by access through Georgia to western markets and contacts will generate (slowly, but deeply) further problems for those commercial objectives, and Georgia will be “released” in time.
The attacks by South Ossetians on Georgia were clearly enabled by the corrupt, neo-Soviet leadership of Russia for expansionist, kleptocratic purposes.
Nevertheless, Georgia should”ve waited until they”d gotten admitted into NATO, and made a better case internationally for defending themselves.
If the countries of Europe had two balls among them, they’d intervene without waiting for the UN. I suppose this’d take the form of armed peacekeepers in South Ossetia to stop the attacks on Georgia.
nonsense – Russia? may it be USSR into 1945+
But that you show Russia and other country the CIS which is a victim of your special services more likely!* I advise you to think that you here write in the pseudo samizdat with aggressive Masonic symbolics… Because not only you are able to hold the weapon in hands.
And Russia will prove it, if it so would be desirable you. It will not be simple at us other choices
*-Example – pro-American zombi psychopath Saakashvili, who has made already attempt of suicide because of unfortunate blitzkrieg and pro-American zombi the person leprosy Ющенко! And where America has dug out such ugly creatures, simply My God? =)
I can’t figure out whether “russinwerwolf” is a parody or for real.
Jonathan Pearce: you’re wrong about the anti-war crowd always blaming the victim. There were approximately 3000 victims on September 11, 2001, but the anti-war crowd don’t blame the perpetrators for that. Instead, they claim it’s “blowback”.
Or, my favorite: the Muslims hate us for what we do. But at the same time, we’re blamed for “creating” the mujahedeen. Shouldn’t the Muslims love us for that?
You it is simple to spoil as spoil in Vietnam in due time…
Because you can be at war only with weaklings, but
Russian never were weaklings – learn Russian history, since great warriors of Ancient Rus.
We on our ground live already two thousand years and we shall live fucker to you here to do! ;p
understand an example наполеона, the fascist Germany which have failed in our snows
and exhausted you agressive politics
While you think, whether a parody I or real,/// think and of that, it will be how much justified attempt to compel Russia something to make to please to America. It never will be. Force in the truth, the brother!
You Triangle Eyes its only dead symbol of Egypt mystic… dead like mummyes and pyramids. No power, no science, no faith. SORRY!!! =)
@Heroic Georgia is fighting our fight; she is defending the freedom and security of democratic Europe.@
—————————
– its full shit and you must understund what this lie – Heroic?? Georgia? Hahaha! SAAKASHVILI – creazzy, MADNESS!
Its spoil and crowling back to hole…sad what it bad learning you you Mercenaries!
Fuck me! russinwerwolf is something else ain’t he?
Maybe we got some linky-love from Daily Kos or an Alex Jones site.
Ha! He’s probably some kid in Moscow slacking in his English lessons…
As for Georgia, there’s nothing to stop private forces from taking contracts to go and help defend Georgia.
At the risk of reinforcing my irony-deficiency credentials, I’m going to assume that russianwerwolf is sincere – his comment
reminds me of de Gaulle’s observation on Stalingrad: “C’est un grand peuple – les Allemands.”
FYI, I think “наполеона” is “Napoleon.” I wish I could read Russian. This is fascinating.
[deleted by editor. post in English]
For some reason I had back in my lesser used neurons an idea that there were some ultra-nationalist, neo-nazi style Russian terrorists that called themselves ‘werewolves’.
After a great deal of digging, I found this on the web. Scroll down or ‘find’ the paragraph that begins The “Werewolf Legion”.
Getting back to the topic, isn’t the real issue here — How should one react when a friend does something that is beyond stupid, even criminal?
Most reasonable people were disgusted when ardent feminists responded to reports of Bill Clinton’s unwanted advances (& worse) towards women like Paula Jones by trashing the female victims.
In the present situation in Georgia, it becomes increasingly clear that Saakashvili launched the initial aggression. That is unacceptable — even from our friends.
If Russia imposes a peace that strips South Ossetia & Abkhasia from Georgia, disarms Georgia, and lets the Georgian people themselves put Saakashvili on trial as a war criminal, it would not be inappropriate. If Russia chooses to be more generous than that, then it would be to their credit.
And western countries can save themselves from the Democrat feminists unpleasant situation by vigorously & sincerely condemning Georgia’s initial aggression — while also pleading with the Russians to show mercy.
I must say I am impressed at the concern Russia is showing for the right to self determination of the South Ossetian people. No doubt in a spirit of solidarity the Kremlin will soon be granting independence to Chechenya?
I think we have to face the fact that Putin, who is clearly still in power, is one nasty Chekist bastard who will stop at nothing to reassert Russian control over its former colonial subject nations. He wants to reestablish control over the Russian “near abroad”, and he doesn’t care how many people have to die to accomplish his aim. I didn’t much like Communist Russia, but I don’t like the look of Fascist Russia either. They have never really got much beyond the “be my friend or I’ll kill you” school of diplomacy have they?
Russianwerwolf is a classic example of proving our views of Russian nationalists 100% correct by telling us we are wrong. They are a country with a GDP the size of Italy (but lacking the social or economic infrastructure of Italy) and one of the most catastrophic demographic profiles in the world.
They will thrash around and cause damage but the sound and fury coming out of that part of the world is Russia’s death throes, not the sound of its rebirth.
Забавный, Ñ Ð½Ðµ заметил никого ÑвлÑющегоÑÑ Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ñ‹Ñ‰ÐµÐ½Ð½Ñ‹Ð¼ кроме ВаÑ.
Amusing, I have not noticed anybody being pompous except for you.
[deleted. post in English]
Briefly on Gitmo (although that may be “feeding the trolls”).
I would rather be in Gitmo than in American civilian prison – for example I like my backside the shape it is.
Also “fair trials” and so on did not apply to Japanese and German prisoners during World War II.
And as for the Geneva Convention – as the people in Gitmo were captured not wearing uniform they could have been shot out of hand.
Now Putin and co.
I have written about Putin before – and I will not write endlessly about him and his comrades again.
But every step of the way – the destruction of the non pro Putin media, the destruction of the growing (growing under Yeltsin) independence of the courts, the stealing of the property of Western and Russian companies, and the imprisonment and, indeed, murder of critics of the regime, – President George Walker Bush has been sticking to his “I have looked into his eyes and into his soul – and he is a good man” line.
Putin is a friend of the West – in the same way that I am over six feet tall and have a full head of hair.
John McCain was right and George Walker Bush was wrong (as on the lack of troops in the Iraq operation, and as on government spending and so on) but we have been stuck with Bush since people (including me although I do not have a vote) supported him in the primary contests of 2000.
Bringing politics into a serious situation?
Politics is serious – and our support for Bush in 2000 was a mistake.
Russia really was developing into a civilized country back then – but now (whilst not as bad as in Soviet days) it is hostile.
And the Putin regime seeks a stranglehold, not only on Georgia, the Ukraine and so on – it also seeks a stranglehold on the energy supplies of Western Europe.
“But Russia will help us against Iran”.
No, Bush brain – the Putin regime has been supporting the Iranian regime for years.
Amazing. These ‘problems’ are a first order consequence of Russian policy in that part of the world, so asking the Russian state to show ‘mercy’ for a situation they have sought to engineer all along must be some sort of evil joke.
Georgia’s ‘initial aggression’ was a response to on-going and long standing Russian aggression. It may not have been a very good idea but there is no moral equivalence at all. That is like describing the Croatian re-occupation of Krajina as the ‘initial aggression’ of the Serbian-Croatian war (as some chetnik apologists indeed do).
Russia – Georgia
Defense budget
$32,99 billion – $583 million
Personnel
641,00 – 26,900
Main Battle Tanks
6,717 – 82
Armoured Personnel Carriers
6,388 – 139
Combat Aircraft
1,206 – 7 (SEVEN)
Heavy Artillery
7,550 – 95
[deleted because, well, you do not seems to have anything coherent to say]
Alice wrote:
No, it’s not clear that Saakashvili launched the initial aggression. There are reports that South Ossetians shelled Georgian areas first in an attack that left ten people dead. Those reports may be wrong, but I don’t think it’s clear yet.
Those reports do jive, though, with how quickly this whole thing went down. It took less than a day after the Georgian attack for Russia to move a mechanized division and two airborne infantry divisions into Georgia as well as mobilize the Black Sea fleet. That would be an extremely fast mobilization even for the USA or UK. Russian armor and ships just aren’t maintained in sufficient condition to allow that. This has been planned for a while. Be sure of that.
And that, my friends, lends credibility to the reports of South Ossetian shelling starting this whole thing off. Not proof, but credibility.
Mike
It is reasonably clear that the Russians have been playing the Pallywood card. Just like the responses to the Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel bring howls of “victimisation” from the Palestinians.
Presuming there were provocative attacks by Ossetian “separatists” on Georgia,what were the, some 1000,Russian peacekeepers doing?
Is this what ‘variant spelling’ entails? It seems he’d get at least 5/100 for trying. Sheesh.
It seems Russia had been building up for at least since early May. Link. It’s nice to know the EU used the much respected powers it wields to help. Hah.
pa annoyed:
Well, we’ll see. Meanwhile things are happening in Georgia, making very clear who the paper tiger is. Hint: it’s the one that doesn’t bite, and is even afraid to bark.
Perry,
So what is the sound of whinning coming out of this part of the world?
Speaking of Alex Jones, today he explained that the entire Georgian government is actually made up of ex-Mossad members. So there you have it. (I live in Austin, and he makes great lunchtime entertainment)
Why is it, six months ago we got Another Sockpuppet from China, and now ‘russianwerwolf’ is the best we can get? I mean, if we’re going to be trolled by apologists for corrupt and murderous regimes, why can’t they at least be literate?
(I don’t think the werepuppy was official, though. The Russian government was at least a little sophisticated about propaganda. I think that they could come up with slightly better than a teenager with a link to Babelfish.)
Ron Brick,
Those numbers are telling, if true. However, I’d be curious as to source. I mean, how many Russian soldiers even show up when their draft notices are sent? And how many of those tanks have been maintained enough to even start the engine?
Those might be the real numbers, but there’s a cloud of uncertainty about them that I imagine wouldn’t apply to the US or UK.
Perry,
?Significa este duscurso que no nos permiten Uds. a hablar Espanol tampoco? :-B
This is Russian ‘peace keeping’. (via Instapundit)
Let’s be careful about any assumptions about what is happening or will happen on the ground.
First reports are almost always wrong and neither side is going to refrain from pouring the most putrageous disinformation onto the world’s information sphere.
That said it does not look good for any of the former Soviet Republics or the former empire. Russia is angry and wants revenge, its going to take strong nerves to stand up to them.
What is it about the Russian script that always makes me want to hold it up to mirror, to find out whether someone is having a laugh or not?
Well we seem to have a few Russian literates in tonight.
Pity Wolfie Smith cant speak English.
You are all doing a fine job pissing on his tawdry opportunist head.
Carry on.
Putin went down to Georgia
He was lookin for some land to steal…
(Apologies to Charlie Daniels)
Sunfish,
Out of the SUn a tabloid probably no exact,but the differentials are so huge,even if you compensate the message is compared to Russia Georgia is a minnow.
Once upon a time, there was puny, though feisty little kid who lived next door to the school bully. The bully made the feisty little kid’s life miserable with his threats of how he would hurt him if the kid ever stepped out of line.
One day the captain of the football team, who admired the feisty little kid’s pluck, invited the kid to get together with him and his friends to throw a few passes after school. Needless to say, the feisty little kid was thrilled to have the attention of the captain of the football team and his friends. The kid felt sure that they would protect him from the school bully if he ever acted on his threats.
This did not go unnoticed by the school bully, who soon after the football captain has gone home for dinner beat the crap out of the feisty little kid. “Hah” he sneered. “Where are your big strong friends, now that you need them? Nowhere to be found!” And all the other puny little kids on the block took notice that the attention of the football hero is the last thing you need when you live next door to the school bully.
More ‘peace keeping‘.
Unfortunately I think Patrick may have nailed it. Where is Georgia’s big, strong friends?
Midwesterner:
Unfortunately, I get a “document moved” page when I try to access your link.
It is on news.cnet.com. Scroll down to “Georgia accuses Russia of Cyberattack”. One of the money quotes:
Ted Schuerzinger
It works for me. What browser are you using?
Paranoia does come in handy sometimes.
What’s funny-sad-to me is…WHERE are the marchers in London, New Your, Paris, et al. protesting the “depravity of it all”? Didn’t take the antiwar crowd this long to ramp up the marches in ’03, did it? (Selective outrage?)
Rab
Cyrillic is Bulgarian. The Russians nicked that too.
Eamon
There is an incredibly good discussion thread going over at Belmont Club. Here is a sample:
Oops. cjr made a mistake. That should be “TRACECA”. He gives this link.
http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr28/pdf/f50_gor.pdf
Here is some high quality analysis of the cyber-warfare/hacktivism which took place over the weekend and in the weeks leading up to the conflict.
To describe the warriors of ancient Rus as great has got to be the most comical piece of revisionism ever.
For one thing, the Rus was so feeble that we get our modern word for “slave” from “Slav”; thank the Turks, IIRC, for that. This is rendered even funnier because of the etyma involved, “slave” having passed through late Greek, and “Slav” being cognate with Greek “klewos” — fame (related also to English “call”)!
For another, even educated Russians recognize how piss-poor the warriors of Rus were, even more badly organized than the knights involved in the worst debacles of the counter-Muslim Crusades. This is in part commemorated in Borodin’s Prince Igor. If it hadn’t been for Peter the Great, and perhaps Ivan before him, the Communist putsch in Russia would’ve been a historical footnote.
Lastly, if it hadn’t been for adventuring Norsemen, the Rus wouldn’t even have come into existence. It’s be like describing the Normans as great warriors, when it was a matter of freak chance that won them England.
Seriously, has Russian hypernationalism degenerated so far as to be expounded by utter ignoramuses? Smeshno, da, ameby?
As for the status quo nunc, the continued Russian occupation of Georgia is in part intended to show that the West are utterly unreliable allies, and that the neo-Soviet knife is poised at Europe’s throat. Somehow I doubt they’ll be proven wrong.
to tdh:
Our ridiculous and slavish warriors beat the boards to a gate of the Byzantian empire, have not bad finished with Napoleon v 1812, with Hitler,
it is quite good opposition in Vietnam and Afghanistan to USA – all that you need to despise cowardly Russian and further. 🙂
the Communist putsch in Russia would’ve been a historical footnote. – The opinion is known, that Lenin received material aid for revolution from Germany and was the German spy =)
Absolutely precisely, that the majority of troubles of Russia of that climb here all to whom not laziness with dirty legs and curve souls
Nice to see you’re still around, werewolf, and that you’ve elected to avoid the insults.
However – Father Winter was a significant factor in the defeat of both Napoleon and the Wehrmacht, and both ‘victories’ were at huge cost to the locals.
The US really had little direct conflict with the Soviet Union in Vietnam and Afghanistan, unless you count movies like Rambo. As many nations have found, keeping the Afghans under control is a difficult exercise, and requires more than just driving columns of battle tanks up and down major highways.
I won’t comment in Lenin’s alleged status as a German spy – it’s not really germane to the issue that historically, defense of Mother Russia, no matter who rules it, has been a catalog of bloody, pyrrhic victories, relying on home-team advantage, and a willingness to cede territory and rely on the ravages of winter and the dificulties of long supply lines for the invaders. Not that there’s anything wrong with exploiting such advantages, but they don’t necessarily establish that the ‘Johnny Russian’ is a fearless, efficient military lion.
Bod and other
– have your to concern to ZOG – zionist okkupation governmant? If yes, what your purposes in Russia – the world democracy and the order?
And why then “all world” resists to such kind things? Thanks for attention
Not sure what you’re getting at here, werewolf. Last time I noticed, jews were leaving what was the Soviet Union in droves. Maybe the jewish illuminati are so efficient they only need a few of them in any nation to control everything, and I have no ‘purpose’ in Russia myself.
World Democracy? Doesn’t exist. Nor will it. And I’m not such a fan of democracy anyway.
I’m not *quite* sure what kind of blog you think you’re commenting in, but I think you’re actually looking for is Alex Jones’ Prison Planet
” with Hitler”?
Couldn’t have done it without the P-61’s, B-25’s, Dodge-not to mention my fav rave-Studeabaker-trucks that “our favorite socialist” err-pres.GAVE to the USSR?!
Werewolf – you are drunk on nationalism. Time for a reality check. Do you really, in your wildest dreams, think an army of miserable conscripts is any match for modern US forces?
As for your recounting of Russia’s past glories in 1812 and during WW2; on the whole, these were not showcases of great Russian martial ability. Great sacrifice, undoubtably – but that isn’t the same thing at all. If the Russians were great warriors, they would have been able to repel the invaders at the first engagement and such sacrifices would not have been made. Regarding Vietnam; the US was never militarily defeated there. And I think the unfortunate outcome for the US that arose from that conflict had rather more to do with North Vietnamese resolve than Russian prowess on the battlefield. As for Russia in Afghanistan, all I can say is huhhhh?? You think things went well for the Soviets there?
The reason on which I write here – and I see it occurs, that you thought little bit more own “five points” (: –
the fact what America spends extremely an aggressive policy worldwide, being covered with democratic slogans.
Operation western special services at our borders against our people is top of cynicism and the extreme form of aggression, a call to each Russian…
If it will descend to the West from hands, to it will strongly carry… There is nothing to tell more – try to think
It is more than 2000 people have paid for growth of a rating of your emperor Makkejna – we know, such act of terrorism lead in interests of America what for was necessary. Whether it seems to you it is frankly fascist decision?
A Russian patriot should oppose someone who does the following:
Crush any broadcasting station that does not support him.
Subvert the courts of law.
Steal companies and imprison their owners.
Murder journalists – including female journalists.
And uses poison (the weapon of a coward) against people he does not like.
The man who does this these things is PUTIN.
Putin is a K.G.B. pig, not a Russian.
If russiawerwolf is a Russian patriot he will oppose Putin.
As for the Georgian government being made up of Mossad agents:
The source of this story would seem to be that the President of Georgia is a friend (since 1997) of John McCain.
And McCain is called (by some people) a “neocon” (actually he opposes the wild spending “compassionate conservativism” of the neocons – but let us not let facts ruin a good theory) and everyone knows the neocons are Jews so……
The fact that both John McCain and (as far as I know) the President of Georgia are Christians will be ignored – see above for some people’s attitude towars facts.
Of course russianwerwolf may choose to ignore or discount what I have a written because I have a Jewish family name (just as so many people choose to igore the companies that were being stolen in Russia – because the first people picked on were Jews).
However, it was my father who was Jewish (and actually he was neither fully Jewish “by blood” or by belief) not my mother. And I am a Christian – if Anglican still counts as Christian these days.
Of course russianwerwolf can still choose not the believe me.
It is the Americans and the Jews who are a threat to Russia – not Saint Putin.
A Russian patriot should oppose someone who does the following:
Crush any broadcasting station that does not support him.
Subvert the courts of law.
Steal companies and imprison their owners.
Murder journalists – including female journalists.
And uses poison (the weapon of a coward) against people he does not like.
The man who does this these things is PUTIN.
Putin is a K.G.B. pig, not a Russian.
If russiawerwolf is a Russian patriot he will oppose Putin.
As for the Georgian government being made up of Mossad agents:
The source of this story would seem to be that the President of Georgia is a friend (since 1997) of John McCain.
And McCain is called (by some people) a “neocon” (actually he opposes the wild spending “compassionate conservativism” of the neocons – but let us not let facts ruin a good theory) and everyone knows the neocons are Jews so……
The fact that both John McCain and (as far as I know) the President of Georgia are Christians will be ignored – see above for some people’s attitude towars facts.
Of course russianwerwolf may choose to ignore or discount what I have a written because I have a Jewish family name (just as so many people choose to igore the companies that were being stolen in Russia – because the first people picked on were Jews).
However, it was my father who was Jewish (and actually he was neither fully Jewish “by blood” or by belief) not my mother. And I am a Christian – if Anglican still counts as Christian these days.
Of course russianwerwolf can still choose not the believe me.
It is the Americans and the Jews who are a threat to Russia – not Saint Putin.
I think werewolf is using Babelfish or some such.
I would suggest that he get seriously drunk next time he hits the keyboard. Unless he doesn’t take advice from Jews on principle.
To Alise – drunk or drugs – its no good big reason/
Попробуйте говорить Ñо мной на руÑÑком, Ñ Ð¿Ð¾ÑмеюÑÑŒ еще Ñильнее. :)) обвинÑÑ‚ÑŒ Ð¼ÐµÐ½Ñ Ð² национализме – вÑе равно что обвинÑÑ‚ÑŒ Ð¼ÐµÐ½Ñ Ð² том что Ñ Ñ€ÑƒÑÑкий 🙂
Try to speak with me in Russian, I shall be dared even more strongly.:)) to accuse me of nationalism – all the same what to accuse me of that that I Russian:)
Sorry my darling warriors of the words, & good bye, glad to see your in better world 😉
Actually, Alisa, I think it’s IMTranslator, not Babefish (that one seems to result in the same translations).
Personally, I’ve enjoyed reading russianwerwolf’s posts, awkward translations notwithstanding. I hope he sticks around (and also that he switches to Bebelfish).
Wow, I managed to misspell “Babelfish” twice in one post. A new low. (Although a site called “Babefish” might be interesting . . . .)
Jews.. poor Jews… I’am not against this people, – we are hate and we are against the somebody process…
That who now undermines our desire to keep national identity, gives out itself because itself has lost national identity. About what people it it is possible to tell? I think about what has been disseminated worldwide… This things Also allow to speak about presence notorious ZOG and charges in nationalism have a rest (Can be set aside)
I wish for you to remember that nationality to which you born, to remember your nice ancestors, to love that ground on which live – that the your god or gods kept your ground for you. ок. 🙂
sorry for my psevdo-english -)
‘Babefish’? Hmm. I think Nick M. would find it interesting. He has a thing for fish, not to mention babes.
http://pix.academ.org/img/2008/08/15/f6b2b0e95715aa83712851c0afc5e963
http://pix.academ.org/img/2008/08/15/efe5c2e3622dc01854eab3c6d25e2b9a
Oh boy, it’s deja vu all over again…