The story of the satirical pictures of the Prophet Muhammed published by Jyllands-Posten just refuses to die away. I first posted an article about this on 12 November 2005, followed by another on 9 December 2005, indirectly on 10 December 2005 and finally on 23 December 2005 [with a picture of the cartoons].
Usually, a week or so after an article has appeared on Samizdata.net and fallen off the front page, comments pretty much drop to zero 99% of the time. Yet there has been a steady trickle of comments still coming in, presumably via Google hits.
For the most part what is so interesting is what a complete non-meeting of minds these comments represent and they fall into three broad categories:
- Muslims who simply cannot conceive of tolerating people disrespecting their beliefs. Many seem to claim that disrespecting Muhammed is not ‘free speech’ at all (in which case quite what they mean by the words “free speech” is unclear)
- People who just loath Muslims and like the cartoons for no other reason than it upsets them
- People who understand that free speech means tolerating others saying things you do not agree with and which may upset you
Not being a religious person myself, I find it particularly baffling that so many comments by earnest Muslims start with flowery religious language and go on to make religious statements, as if that was going to convince what must obviously be an audience of very secular non-Muslim blog readers.
I like to think that if I went to a Muslim site and left a comment, I would at least make some attempt to phrase my remarks in language that at least tried to address the manifest axioms of the readers, even if I intended to challenge those axioms.
Yet to all intent and purposes, this might as well be a ‘dialogue’ between different species. It really does seem to be a dialogue of the deaf. The internet is awash with anti-Christian images, or ones that make profane use of Christian imagery that many would find offensive and yet do you see many vocal Christians getting so bent out of shape about it that they call for temporal ‘punishment’ for the people expressing those views? No. Most have the maturity to just say “Oh, another one of those daft atheists/agnostics” and keep moving, not accepting what they see but tolerating its expression just as most atheists generally tolerate expressions of religion they may find offensive (provided they are not being asked to pay for it) without actually accepting there is any truth to them. But what is it about the Muslim psyche that makes the contempt of others who do not share their beliefs so intolerable?
By the way, here is a better link to the ‘satanic cartoons’ so you can see what all the fuss is about.
Perry I have observed the same phenomena myself but I wouldn’t say it was anything peculiar to muslims. As you point out there are some Christiians who do get bent out of shape also but they are much rarer. I think it is more a lack of cultural education or understanding of what freedom of speech is than something inherent in the religion. We have a longer tradition of free speech in the west and I don’t think there is anything else to it.
Having said that it occurs to me that although we have a cultural tradition of free speech the current ruling class in the UK is not particularly in tune with it. And so elements of it might be inciting strong muslim protests so as to appear “caring” when they propose laws such as those against religious hatred.
Bernie – Your comment is absurd.
When you say you know of some Christians who get “bent out of shape” about criticisms of Christianity, do you mean some Christians kidnap their non-co-religionists and hold them hostage under threat of death? For days, or months, on international TV?
Or cut to the chase and just behead them immediately?
Do these Christians threaten democratically elected members of our debating chambers with death for “disobeying” the will of their god? Do these Christians get so bent out of shape they blow up trains, stations, office buildings, embassies, ships, military camps?
If your answer to any of the above is No, then you admit your comment is absurd.
In addition, Blair’s law against “incitement to religious hatred” is not even – undemocratically – written to protect the people who have most needed it – the Jews – but the hissy Islamics, who can’t take a joke, can’t take a light comment, can’t take a woman seriously if she’s not blanketed in a black tablecoth and pillowcase (actually, not even then), are so rigid with fear that – as the evidence of the West shows – they may be wrong!
The equivalency of your post is absolutely chilling.
Being religious means never having to say you’re sorry. It’s an excuse to do whatever you (or your God) want. It’s about time religion was subjected to the same scrutiny as pretty much everything else.
nick. Do not be fatuous.
By the way, what the hell does this mean: “It’s about time religion was subjected to the same scrutiny as pretty much everything else.” ?? Whoah! A strongman here! An original thinker!! Decisive, too!
What do you think philosophers, who all too clearly have an intellectual head start on you, have been doing for the last 5,000 years? Macramé?
Youguys all make me laugh. Free speach? Who has free speach? Oh sure we have the right to say anything we want on a blog that 10 people may read but try getting a different opinion into the mass media where joe six pack has a chance to hear it!
We never really did have the right to free speach. We just have the illusion of it.
From today’s Times:
“There were street demonstrations and flag-burnings in the Middle East. Libya joined Saudi Arabia in withdrawing its ambassador from Copenhagen. Islamic governments and organisations, including the Muslim Council of Britain, issued denunciations and a boycott of Danish goods took hold across the Muslim world.”
So just be sure to buy Lurpak, Danish bacon and anything else from Denmark you can get your hands on. Of course, it might be seen as not very “genial”, but there we are: faced with a pack of Islamic fascists trying to impose their will on the sane, what else is left, given that the sensible option (instant deportation) is denied us by those whose eyes are glued shut?
Having first seen the cartoons today I’ve got to say that I can’t see what the fuss is about, they are people in glass houses throwing boulders.
If someone was to replicate the most contriversial work of Andres Serrano with the head ROP guy I wonder what would happen…
It’s not fatuous to point out the shortcomings of religious thought. 5000 years of philosophising about how many angels can dance on the head of pin may as well amount to macrame. Islam is a way of thought that should be consigned to history.
Actually 20,000 read us on a good day.
nick – May I offer a little hint? Shut up.
Della, you don’t seem to understand the enormity of what is happening. The Jyllands-Posten has just apologised that “people were offended”.
The beginning of the end, and because none of these brave Anglo-Saxon nations spoke up in their defence, and because Slick Willy gave a speech in Qatr saying he thought the cartoons were “appalling”.
Ratched up one notch.
This is a pivotal moment.
No one spoke up for Denmark, because they weren’t Danish …
Verity
… there was no one left to speak for me.
A sad day. Another step toward the abyss.
There is an interesting contrast to Slick Willy’s comments over on LGF.
I’ll check it out, John Steele, and thanks for getting the allusion.
This is a very dangerous moment for Britain and Europe. Why the hell did no one support the Danes, goddammit?
And where the hell does this leave Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders?
Perry : For the most part what is so interesting is what a complete non-meeting of minds these comments represent and they fall into three broad categories:
1. Muslims who simply cannot conceive of tolerating people disrespecting their beliefs.
Nick : It’s not fatuous to point out the shortcomings of religious thought.
Verity : nick – May I offer a little hint? Shut up.
Interesting.
Denmark, lovely little country, I’m sorry (&slightly ashamed) for you.
For the rest of the gutless bend-over-backwards liberal scum: Utter contempt.
I have commented here before……maybe you should be reminded for whatever good it will do us all:
THESE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL US…………Geddit.
When I read the word “interesting” in some of these comments I hope that the writer has the old Chinese curse in mind. It is the only possible interpretation.
First of all, the reason so much of the media is so bland and mealy mouthed about everything is the very same fear that drives so much of political correctness—someone designated as a protected, vulnerable, blah-blah-blah type might get the vapors.
This does not apply to straight, white, male, christians involved in capitalist enterprises. They, by definition, are responsible for all that is wrong in the world, have no feelings, and must cringe in shame for all their past offenses regardless of the vileness of the slander directed their way.
A case in point is the recent cover of Rolling Stone which parodies the image of Jesus’ torture by the Romans.
Secondly, the stakes here are very high. If the stink being made about these cartoons achieves its very clear objective, the self-censorship of artists, media, and publishers will be further strangthened. Then, augmented by the perverted speech codes and hate-speech ordinances that are currently in vogue, any realistic criticism or examination of Islam, among many other subjects, would be completely off-limits.
Finally, there is a very good reason that blogs like this, of which there are several million at last count, (although most do not have such distinguished contributors), overflow with opinions which will not ever be allowed on the 6 o’clock news.
Ordinary people are not allowed to clutter up the airwaves with their opinions and ideas. They are not nuanced, sophisticated, educated, or careful enough in what they think and say.
Why, some of those blue collar types actually think that if someone attacks us, we should just blow them up and to hell with ’em. Can’t have that, old bean, don’t ya know? Why, you could get the idea we’re at war.
nick – you are stuck on stupid. (Please refer to the magnificent General Honoré who came in and got NO’s ass in gear.) That means you wake up in the morning and drink a large mug of stupid before tying your trainers. My suggestion, tie both feet of your running shoes together and then run downstairs to get the door.
And Perry de Havilland has a pretty acute eye for comments on his own blog and doesn’t need your eager assistance.
Do have a famous blog of your own, by the way?
veryretired: for some uninhibited blue-collar comment you should pay a visit to “The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiller”
Verity
I’ve done just about the only thing I can do, I wrote to the editor at Jyllands-Posten.
While I see this as a dark day I told the editor that despite the fact that Jyllands-Posten has capitualted in the fact of threats and intimidation, there may be a bright side to it; I assume that Jyllands-Posten would never, ever caracature, ridicule, criticize or offend Christians, Jews, Hindus, et al, ever again.
A dark day indeed.
However they pointedly did not apologise for actually publishing the cartoons, nor did they say they would not do it again. They were sorry that some people were offended, and that is far from just a semantic matter.
Perry
They will not do it again, they’ve learned the lesson.
They don’t have to apologize for publishing and they don’t have to day they won’t do it again. Somehow the situation will never present itself again.
MONEY QUOTE: If the stink being made about these cartoons achieves its very clear objective, the self-censorship of artists, media, and publishers will be further strangthened. Then, augmented by the perverted speech codes and hate-speech ordinances that are currently in vogue, any realistic criticism or examination of Islam, among many other subjects, would be completely off-limits. – very retired.
Why did not one Western leader come forward and support Mr Rasmussen’s incredibly brave stand? What kind of cowards are they? Well, we know that T Blair wees down his leg when frightened and gives in immediately. Jacques Chirac – I cannot figure him out. Does he really not understand that les deux rives de la mediterannée is an insane concept? Because, as very retired rightly implies, the ‘speech codes’ that have been overlaid on the West have been snuck in by people who weren’t elected.
‘Speech codes’ are a leftist agenda that has somehow become embedded in the West through sheer determination and lack of alertness.
The same thing is happening with militant Islam. Lack of alertness. How could the governments of the civilised West have failed to have supported the brave Mr Rasmussen and the brave editors of Jyllands-Posten?
How could they?
Verity: How could they?……………………!!!
permanent expat …. yeah.
Cowards. Yellow streak down their backs. The white feather.
Why did no elected representative in the Anglosphere table a motion in their debating chamber in support of Denmark? Not one! The Daneds have stood alone for October, November, December and January. That is one hell of a lot of pressure from crazy people taking their case to their bonkers “Islamic councils”, UN bodies, ambassadors, trade commissions and shit like that. They have stood up with great honour, but how long can a tiny country stand up without a big country saying, “We’re on your side.” What on earth was President Bush thinking?
OK, I know we’re engaged in a war and this may have come at a bad time for him, but Condoleezza? Rumsfeld? Anyone? A lower level person from State?
But nothing?
Never mind John Howard, couldn’t at least one elected representative in Canberra have tabled a motion of support? Couldn’t one American representative, or governor or school board member have tabled a motion of support? We are talking of a tiny nation, here. Smaller than many American cities, and they held out until they realised there was nothing beneath their feet.
…………………..except other peoples’ feet……of clay.
Declaring similarities of fundamentalist Muslims with fundamentalist Christians is absurd.
Here is a not atypical web sight attacking blasphemies against Christ. (considered ‘God the Son’ by Christians. Mohammed is only a prophet to Muslims.)
Note the domain name.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/myth_of_the_magical_arts_bureauc.htm(Link)
In the left column are a couple of examples, the most famous being a picture of a crucifix in a bottle of the artists urine.
Then this fundamentalist web site advocates for having something of the artists’ cut off. Their heads? No. Their taxpayer funding!
Some people need a reality check.
Midwesterner:……………………Some people? I think, respectfully, you meant to say Western Society.
For anyone who had any doubts that The Economist has gone completely off its tree, here’s a excerpt of what they printed about the cartoons episode last weeK:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20857
They have stood up with great honour, but how long can a tiny country stand up without a big country saying, “We’re on your side.”
So long as all that’s happening is talking? Indefinitely.
Are Europeans so timid that they cannot ignore criticism? I had thought Danes made of sterner stuff than that, but apparently I was mistaken.
Perry,
I think most of your hits are comming from people following links to my page with copies of the cartoons. Hosting this page has been enlightening. The Muslim response reminds me most closely of the reactions of a playground bully being insulted by his erstwhile victims.
PS forgot to point out that thanks to ZANU labour’s Religious Incitement bill publishing these cartoons in the UK could be illegal shortly
I didn’t see many category-1 comments while I could sustain interest in the story. Were they ones that enerally floated in later by referral?
If so, I’m quite surprised they felt like participating on top of a solid bed of category-2. Maybe religious conviction makes you more resilient.
I’d put it slightly stronger than Bernie. There are quite a few similarly unreconcilable Christians though they generally (but not always) keep a low profile. That’s because they know they are socially weak, and they understand, even if they do not accept, the separation of religon and other aspects of life in our society.
It has taken a long and bloody struggle in Western society for them to be as cowed as they are. The Reformation and Enlightenment couldn’t be said to be complete in the whole of western Europe until the fall of Franco. There are parts of North America where a fierce Christian solipsism bubbles in conflict with the secular order, but is restrained by being embedded in a clear constitutional tradition of debate on such questions with the more secular streams in society.
Separation of church and state, and of state and civil society, and of a non-religious civil society from religious institutions, was not conceivable in many Islamic traditions, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be developed (or continue to develop where it has some basis). Inevitably the most religious people, those consumed by piety, will resist this, just as their Christian counterparts do. It doesn’t mean that such differentiation and positive dis-integration in society is impossible just because zealots insist it is.
But, but, and yet again but… Bernie is also right to point out our present government does not value free speech. And I’d put it stronger than that. They are implicitly – at the level of value rather than declared policy – actually opposed to free speech, for precisely the same reason as the religious zealots. The governing caste believes that only those views should be expressed that bring harmony in society, that opposition and conflict are inherently undesirable because there is a permanent, determinate, right way proceeding a fortiori from their principles. Hence the impulse, not just to close down rival world-views directly, but to annexe any institution that might show independence.
The faith-groups that find oblique support for their frothings in government should be beware. They may find themselves first coopted, then privileged, then registered to obtain privilege, then regulated to police the registration, made compliant, made dependent, subordinated, turned into instruments.
Verity,
Although I generally agree with your sentiments I sometimes find your language a bit extreme. However, if I may paraphrase the late Senator Barry Goldwater –
extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Go girl go.
Just a casual search turns up some truly horrific anti-Semitic and anti-any-other-religion Arab newspaper cartoons. I wonder what the reaction of the Danish Imams would have been had something as unpleasant as this [link] been published in Jyllands-Posten instead of in Al-Quds.
It’s supposed to be of the Iraqis and the Palestinians being crucufied in the same way that ‘the Jews murdered Jesus Christ’, as if that is supposed to rouse some kind of empathy from Christians.
Edgar M. Bronfman, New York president of the World Jewish Congress
and
Israel Singer, New York chairman of the WJC Policy Council
Don’t get it:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/26/opinion/edlet.php#
I made sure to buy Danish salami at the supermarket yesterday and would encourage everybody to buy Danish products. It looks as if Laurence Simon & I are going to put up a Buycott Denmark page sometime soon.
It is a bit encouraging to see one country on the continent standing up to Muslims. Its sad to see their fellow Vikings in Norway cow-tow to pressure for the Islamic hordes.
If you wish to show your support for Denmark on your chest; Murray can help you.
Mmmm! Taste that Danablu freedom cheese!!
“We cannot restrict Freedom of Speech. We need to restrict ourselves.”
Voluntary self-restraint in the abscene of threats of force is sometimes warranted. In this situation, however, it is better to publish the cartoons and to hell with the Muslims, so to speak. It is much better that the Danes, and other Europeans and Americans assert not simply our claim on freedom of speech, but also the wider claim that a liberal* society should not accommodate totalitarianism. And Islam is totalitarian.
*liberal in the classical sense, of course.
It is spelled kowtow, ‘cow-tow’ is how you transport cattle in a trailer.
I’m interested as to why you feel people should be encouraged to buy Danish products simply as a gesture of support to an article in that particular newspaper, especially when you consider that the ‘Danish salami’ you purchased was in all likelihood made in another EU state, or even in your own country. As for the original cartoons that appeared in Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten you might want to read the ‘Honourable Fellow Citizens of the Muslim World’ statement released by Carsten Juste yesterday, a statement that seeks to shed some light upon this entire affair.
It is unfortunate that a competition designed to demonstrate freedom of religious expression in a country such as Danmark should be hijacked by the fouler elements of both radical Islam and of the right and left in the West. Of all the modern nations it would seem that only Israel’s media has taken an objective view of this whole business with press commentary ranging from sympathy with those Muslims trying to deal with this matter in a mature, civilized manner through to analysis of why many Muslims feel perturbed at the cartoons. Coming from a country trying to come to terms with the recent Hamas election fiasco I would certainly feel more affinity with them that I certainly do with someone who says such ridiculous things has,
Francis – I don’t know where your site is, but those cartoons have been all over the internet for four months. They’re linked everywhere. There are much better – meaner and funnier – cartoons posted on Albions Seedings and there are some hyterical songs, including one called “It’s in The Koran” on Little Green Footballs. (Links to the left.) There are also some horrible, nightmarish renderings of Mohammad.
If the Jyllands-Posten “apologised” in the manner of “Well, I’m sorry if my parking close to your driveway offends you, but tough”, that would be all right. But I suspect it is more than that.
This speaks so badly for the cowardice of the West I really don’t see any hope. Not one elected official anywhere supported the newspaper. Is this primitive, bigotted, cruel, repressive religion really that scary to elected representatives of major countries.
I feel great pity for Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders.
Verity writes:
“Is this primitive, bigotted, cruel, repressive religion really that scary to elected representatives of major countries.”
It is when the venal bastards are trying to secure their votes.
Barry Goldwater was indeed a great man. For example, a Christian who was not afraid to say that other Christians who used religion as an excuse to attack the liberty of others should get “kicked up the arse” (and rightly so – for if someone violates the nonaggression principle and attacks other people, he deserves to be punished).
Today Mr Blair and his cronies are putting their “incitement to religious hatred” (i.e. death to another part of what is left of free speech) bill before the House of Commons.
It is normal in politics to stress how people may take different points of view and still be decent (one must not claim all virtue for one’s own side and so on).
However, in this case, (as the whole vile scheme has been exposed again and again, and in so many places that no M.P. can honestly claim not to know what they are voting for) it can be stated that a Member of the House of Commons who votes for this bill is not “a decent person who has another point of view”, they are evil.
It really does come to something as simple as that. People who vote for this bill are bad, they know the bill is about destroying freedom and on that basis (in the hopes of winning a few Muslim votes – and not, of course, from tolerant Muslims) they are willing to destroy another part what is left of free speech.
I hope a full list of the M.P.s who vote for this bill (and their constituencies) is published and widely distributed – so that people know who not to vote for at the next general election.
Everyone who lives in the constituency of one of these M.P.s should write to them to express (politely) their total disgust and horror at their action.
What Paul Marks said, with the exception of the parenthesised “politely”. Why be polite to someone who has taken a hatchet to your rights?
Anyway, I found the “It’s in the Koran” link: (Link)
There are a lot of other funny songs out there, obviously professionally produced.
Latest news from the Religion of Peace: two Arla employees in Saudi Arabia have been severely beaten by customers. Hat tip Dhimmi Watch.
The good news is that some committed Christians and Muslims will stand up with secularists for free speech. See today’s Daily Telegraph letters:
What Verity points to is indeed terrible. However, as Guy points out, not all Muslims follow this line.
As someone who can not read classical Arabic (indeed I can not read Arabic at all) I am very aware that I have to rely on translations of the Koran.
I also hope that the day will come when most Muslims (like most Christians) accept that the Koran is NOT the “direct word of God”, but is the word of man (both their prophet and his scribes and assistants) which may have been INSPIRED by God.
However, I accept (before Verity points it out) that this is not the position of most Muslims today.
“Above all else, the Devil cannot stand to be mocked.” — C. S. Lewis
“I’ll bet the Devil’s really upset now.” — Islam Comic Book Webmaster
http://islamcomicbook.com/lyrics1.htm
That song is perfect, Verity. So much so, it could even have been produced by you for all we know!
Ho ho ho, mike and thanks, but no. I thought it was interesting that this poor man was singing through a vodeo thing to disguise his voice. There are some other clever ones, much better produced, in the style of New Orleans jazz, with really good singing. But I can’t find the link.
I think these bigotted, narrow, primitive morons are going to find themselves defeated by the anarchic freedom of the internet. Jyllands-Posten published some really not very good cartoons and cartoon rage was born. Now while they go crouching and whining to the UN and their Muslim councils and councils of mosques and mosques of Muslims and committees of councils and god knows what, cartoon rage has rounded on them and taken a bite out of their ass.
Yes well here’s to more of this stuff getting around!
And now comes the oil threat. (Link)
BAHRAIN’S parliament is outraged at insult to Islam.
“An apology from the Danish daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten, was not enough, said MPs”
“They said the apology should come from head of state Queen Margrethe and from the Danish government.”
“We should also stop exporting the 159,000 daily oil barrels to Denmark in co-ordination with other GCC countries.”
Ok, let them stop the oil. It will hurt us fore some time, but we will find others ways, and then they can sit on there f…… oil and eat it.
We cant cave in to some middeleast islamic fanatics who wants to dictate what we can say or do in our own country.
mike – that link you posted was the one I was referring to. Those songs aren’t bad! I particularly liked “Put A Bomb in Your Shoe”.
Re the oil, I have a feeling their Viking cousins the Norwegians would come to their aid PDQ.
Has no one ever told these cretins – when in a hole, stop digging? But this is how vicious they are.
Hey Mohammed! Here’s half a buck. Go buy yourself a sense of humor.
Verity,
Can you post a link to the cartoons which are actually circulating in the ME, not the harmless ones? I want to see what the fuss is about. Thanks.
Hi Maria.
This is what the fuss is about. (Link)
This is the 12 cartoons that was printed in Jyllands-Posten in september.
That link to the cartoons is already in the article’s last paragraph.
Verity: I had guessed as much.
IIRC Mr De Havilland recently posted about military strategy regarding Iran in which he stated his preference for funding domestic anti-government insurgency. Might I suggest that a few cartoons and funny songs such as these linked to on comments on Iranian blogs like this couldn’t hurt – just in case someone knows how to translate them.
Of course, if the situation weren’t so serious, you would think President Armageddon’s promises “to take oil money directly to the people’s house and table” would be dark piss-taking enough.
Henning,
I’ve seen those ones. Aren’t there supposed to be some really offensive ones that didn’t originate in Denmark being posted in the ME as though they are from Denmark? I thought that is what made them more riled? If anyone knows of the existence of these more offensive cartoons and can link to them, I would like to know what the fuss is about.
Thanks, Marie
Not one elected official anywhere supported the newspaper. Or the Danes ….
To hell with “elected officials”.
Why don’t all the media in the West reproduce these cartoons on their front page ???
All of them ! (Or many of them !).
Isn’t freedom of expression dear to them ? Here is a cheap and simple way to express their support of Freedom of Expression !
Then the Muslims would maybe know how we feel about it in the West. They they will have a lot of countries to boycott !
Because, Jacob, Jyllands-Posten has refused to release the copyright. They don’t want to be accused of actually contributing to this ridiculous brouhaha. Papers have asked to buy the cartoons and the answser has been nej.
I would rather see some official recognition of the stance that Denmark has adopted. I would like some elected representatives to stand up and say, “We speak for the American/British/Australian … whatever … people and we stand shoulder to shoulder with Denmark.”
Maria.
Those are the original cartoons printed in Jyllands-Posten in september.
There are many pics on the net that are more “blasfemic” than these.
And the delegation of danish Imans that went on a trip to the middeleast in december to raise support, did have some pics of Muhammad as a pig, but these where “just” some pics that muslims had recived in there private mail, or some they have found on the net somewhere. They have never been printed in any newspaper. But the spoksman for the delegation Imam Ahmed Akkari said that theres nothing wrong in showing these pics in arab media !!!! Despite that they have not been printed in any danish media.
There was supposed to be 29 islamic societys in Denmark that had sign the protest that the delegation took with them to the middeleast trip. But 5 dont excist, 10 have never been asked and would not have sign.
I agree. And am glad to see that I’m not the only one who thinks the vast majority of the cartoons were more or less toothless – but far more devastating in terms of professional standing for a satirical cartoonist – not particularly interesting, enlightening or cleverly reflective of modern society.
However, if the fundamentalists and their “moderate” allies wish to demonise and denounce them, I’ll happily leap to the defence of such mediocre scribblings.
Henning
re: The oil threat
Were I President I would ask Congress to make up the shortfall from our Strategic Reserve. Free peoples need to stand together.
In the immortal words of an American patriot “If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately.”
Henning – Marie had already said she wasn’t looking for the Jyllands-Posten cartoons which the entire world and his brother has seen many, many times. She is looking for other links she has heard about.
I have no idea. I have seen one link with truly gruesome pictures of Mahommad on it, but I don’t have the link. You should be able to google links, though.
Hey! I’ve just thought of the real reason the Islamics are so paranoid and bonkers! How would you feel if every other man in your country and surrounding countries had your first name? I mean, wouldn’t you feel a bit diminished? It could make you crazy. No wonder they do truly bizarre things to try to stand out from the crowd.
Henning–
Oil is fungible. If Bahrain doesn’t sell it to Denmark, Denmark can buy it from the US buying it from Bahrain, or wherever. It’s not that big a deal, merely a minor annoyance.
Scalpmed–
You obviously haven’t a clue about what free speech means. Free speech means you have the right to say it; it doesn’t mean you have the right to make others listen, nor to force a private company to give you a platform.
Well… first off I am Danish, came by this site just today browsing on the current ‘crisis’, good site 🙂 thought to leave a little message…
I am not sorry nor do i wish to appoligize for the drawings that the JP printed, it was within their rights and the Danish laws to do so and as a freedom loving person i support the freedom of speach and expression… even when it comes from someone i don’t agree with… as long as it is within the danish laws…
With Regards, A Dane
Today I learned that muslim rebels in Iraq have issued a Fatwa against the Danish troops who are there as Denmark’s contribution to the Coalition. This shouldn’t really surprise anyone, as the issuing of Fatwas seems to be the standard answer to anything the muslims don’t like.
In honour of this latest Fatwa I have taken it upon myself to issue a Fatwa of my own.
I hereby decree that due to my blatantly apparent moral and ethical superiority to the Islamic extremists the following orders shall be carried out.
All Danish companies shall hire muslims only to carry out the most demeaning and trivial of tasks, and only if such tasks are rewarded with a low salary.
All Danish Universities and places of higher learning shall only accept one in a hundred muslims, and let even fewer graduate.
The Danish Police and Danish Courts shall arrest and convict muslims in such a number as to make them disproportionately represented in the various crime statistics (Sometimes by a ratio so disproportionate that they will be more than 1000 times more likely to commit certain crimes than native Danes)
The Danish Population shall treat muslims with contempt wherever they encounter them, leaving them to feel isolated both socially and economically.
So let it be written, so let it be done. My every command shall be carried out.
Wow, my Fatwa is already working….
I would say you cut this Danish crab talk about your Freedom Of Speech. it’s just another term you use in the west for the Freedom To Insult people we hate for no basis. In my words I would call it The Evil Of Speech.
You describe ME Muslims as a primitive cave men who still live in the desert, while you are the civilized people who live in a sophisticated cities among civilized societies……… this is crab……… it’s just hard for you to understand diversity that GOD created in this world.
your civilization the way I see it is the ultimate indignity and humiliation of the human race ever since human lived on this earth. the civilization that stands for Women Rights and on the other hand Insult women and use thier naked bodies as a cheap marketing tool.
A civilization that abuses drugs and alcohol by the name of the low. a civilization that promote legal prostitution and pornography by the name of Human Rights and on the other hand ban the Muslim girls in France to obey their GOD and to live with modest manners by wearing their Hijab ( head cover)……. it’s the civilisation of Irony…. dont you think so !!!!
you still claim to be civilised right ?…….. I know.
OK then…in any civilised society, If I came to you and start to swear on your face in public and accuse you with things you never done, you can surly take me to court and sue me for this, and I might have to sell my house to pay you for the false accusations and the psychological harm I caused for you…. Right !!!
My point is that it can never be an act of civilization by any human constitutions to Insult an Innocent man and to make fun of him in your public channels by the name of your alleged Freedom Of Speech ( just because of the acts of some radical Irresponsible Muslims who claim to be representing the real Islam ). Have you ever heard or read anything from the prophet Mohammed that provokes hate towards other prople……. I am sure not….., So you have no right of Insulting this great man and accuse him with things he never done.
Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world.
Stop grabing your Information from your blind-justice media. Go and read about this great prophet. read about him from the words of the fair western people before you hit the Islamic libraries.
If you want to keep claiming that this is a Freedom Of Speech, I suggest that you leave your cities and go live in the forest where the strong prevail, leave the cities for more civilized people to live in. for your sad fortune I would like to remind you that We live in a civilized world, We dont live in a forest, and you are not alone in this world.
Insulting Innocent people in the public media and accusing them with things they never done can in no way be a civilized act or a Freedom Of Speech.
this was not meant to be rude, I am just trying to say that there are different points of view in this world. try to see this issue from a different angle. this is a civilized world we live in and every nation has its role in building the modern world ( though some people act against human race and they only aim at humiliating and destroying this human race) however, we want to keep this world civilized, we need to respect each other.
I dont mean that all Danish People are like this, of course i am sure that lots of them dont agree on this shameless, irresponsible action against other people believes, I am just talking to those extremist who think that they live in the forest…….. they know themselves.
Here you go guys…….. you have a rich material to act upon……… come on….. hit me
Correct. Freedom of speech really does mean the freedom to insult people. You can do it too (you just did, in fact) but unlike your fragile culture which panics at the idea that non-believing rationalists might actually express their views, most westerners could not care less what you say about us, just so long as you are not threatening violence (and frankly threatening violence is the only way Islamists have to get our attention, that is how much we rate your civilisation).
Your comment slags off western civilisation in favour of your dark ages ideas, and you know what? People in the west (and indeed on this blog) may call you an ignorant arsehole but they will not call for you to be ‘punished’ or arrested and that is where you are revealed as the fascist masquerading as a victim.
Oh, and we like our pornography, thank you very much, and as a culture are very good at producing it too. See? We do not just make better weapons and computers and, well, pretty much everything in fact, we actually have more fun too.
I have met many muslim individuals who I liked and respected but Islamic culture has nothing to offer any rational member of a first world society. The future is secular… hell, the present is secular.
Crikey!….Was that a spoof by Verity?
Maybe not. The towelhead only confirmed (using despised Western technology) that his so-called culture, once the great pride of the Arab world, has recidivated into pre-mediaevilsm. This hypocrite more than likely lives in a Western country which allows him the freedoms he despises and, should that be the case I can only recommend a one-way steerage flight on a plane made by a well-known Syrian manufacturer to be dumped anywhere there’s a lot of camels & sand, Oz excepted. He can find his own way to his brother’s herd of goats simply by using his Saudi-made GPS.
Sadly they’ve become rather good at it.
Steamin’, Perry!
Sam-j says: If you want to keep claiming that this is a Freedom Of Speech, I suggest that you leave your cities and go live in the forest where the strong prevail … (and where we would also enjoy “Freedom of Speech” because who’s going to stop us?).
Other than the utter disconnection in this sentence, how high up are you (and your co-religionists) on the food chain, Sam? You think the strong don’t prevail in the corporate world (in the cities), where we find so few of your fellows? Why would we want to leave central heating and hot water and warm cars and electric lights and refrigerators and microwaves?
Go back to the forest and you’re going to get all these strong Muslims flocking out of the caves and the sand dunes and suddenly prevailing against the West in this forest? No. We, not bound by chains on our minds and are free to create solutions, which is what has made us powerful and left you behind as the weak who couldn’t keep up.
(BTW, I suggest you leave the forest.)
Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world. Look around you. You’ve been brainwashed since birth. You’re ignorant. Your mind is a steel trap that hasn’t been opened since you were born. The poorest, most backward people in the world are from the religion of peace.
If you’re offended by the West, you will oblige us by going back to your forest. But do not entertain dreams of dominating people who are vastly more advanced technologically and, via our legal systems and our social systems, than you.
You are not – the oft-told lie – a once-great civilisation that has been dormant. You have always been at the stage you have been now. Your astronomy and physics were from the brilliant (Hindu) minds of India, passing through the dead wood (there’s that forest again!) of the Middle East on their way to the West, where they would be adopted to startling effect.
And yes, we do have the “freedom to insult people for no basis”. Under our sophisticated legal system, those people “insulted without basis”, perhaps, the ultimate horror, even by women, are free to sue us for hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars. If they win, the offending party is obliged by law to pay off. If they don’t, they get banged up.
Very straight forward in a non-forest sense.
What is strange about your post is, English is obviously your second language. What is your first?
Thank you, Sam-j, for finally explaining something.
Even given that your religious cult offers a warped, twisted perversion of reality and that, by definition, anyone who believes what s/he reads in the koran has abandoned reason, I’d never quite been able to work out the appeal of suicide, as beloved of so many of your co-religionists.
But then, if I found out I had been duped by a cult started by a paedophile, a misogynist and a sociopath, I’d probably want to kill myself, too.
That’s harsh. Ouch.
Sam-j, your post had some stuff worth thinking about, and maybe even noting. However, the absurdity of this particular sentence makes the rest of your post utterly unpalatable. I’m fairly ignorant of the historical accounts of Mohammed, and am honest enough to say so, but “peace and justice?”
Come on, my 2 year old knows better than to swallow that one.
Additions to Verity’s notes on Hindu contributions to Islamic (Arabic) science. Their philosophy was also Greek (Plato and Aristotle) and many of the mathematical advances that are ascribed to the Arabs actually came about due to the intellectual ferment brought about by the expansion of the Mongols (re: Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World).
Mohammad has always struck me as a “how convenient” sort of religious leader. Are you a camel caravan trader tired of being charged interest on loans to outfit your trading expeditions? Amazingly, God says: Interest on loans is forbidden! How convenient. Are neighboring townspeople and perfidious Jewish merchants beating you in the market? God says: They’re proscribed and fair game for rapine and slaughter! Bonus: It’s all in the name of peace! How convenient! I love being the Prophet (Profit?) of the Lord!
well…. my comment has obviously made some people angry……. again it was not meant to do so. I was just trying to say that there are other people living in this world, you should be aware of this fact.you guys need to behave yourselves. you should not exercise what you consider as your freedom of speech on other Innocent people around you regardless of their feelings. especially when your weird rationalism get you to interpret Freedom as the freedom to Insult other people as my friend here in this blog said: (Correct. Freedom of speech really does mean the freedom to insult people . it’s really shocking to hear this from a member of afirst world society .
Speaking of violence can any of you tell me what the hell are your western rationalist troops are doing in Iraq…….. please i would like to hear any other explanation rather than the rotten claim ofLooking for weapens of mass destruction, which your civilized technology invented in the first place and offered to the modern world.
Oh, and we like our pornography, thank you very much, and as a culture are very good at producing it too. See? We do not just make better weapons and computers and, well, pretty much everything in fact, we actually have more fun too.
I just wonder if any rationalist, educated, western woman is aware of this fact that in their societies they are being used as a way to have fun or maybe as a weapon to destroy humanity.
however, I would like to add to your highly advanced knowledge that my dark ages ideas is the very outspreading and firm ideology since it started 14 hundred years ago. it started with one great man and now almost quarter of the world population is Muslims……….. have you ever asked your rational selves why?………… defenetly not because its a cult of paedophile, a misogynist and a sociopath. . and by the way if you are just by any chance aware of your surrounding you will notice that it’s the most active RELIGION in terms of followers taking their religion seriously. ( with all respect to other heavenly religions ).
The future is secular… hell, the present is secular.
yes you are right the present of your western world is unfortunately secular, but the present that has no past is the cause of what you called the fragile culture…… believe me its just a matter of time and you will find out this fact. , unfortunately your secularism has no refrence but the non-proven theories that prove its failure every now and then ).,
however, i would suggest thet you leave your prophecies about the future for other people who can read the contemporary events better than you, because as it appears to me you dont realy think of the consequences of your acts.
Look around you. You’ve been brainwashed since birth. You’re ignorant. Your mind is a steel trap that hasn’t been opened since you were born
I wonder who has been brainwashed, you’r Judging someone since his birth, and you just met him on-line about an hour ago………. I assume this could be just another shape of your prejudice against Islam.
The poorest, most backward people in the world are from the religion of peace.
this could be true in your material way of thinking, but if so, it’s just because some decision makers in the Islamis world are following the fake western claims about democracy and human rights, against the will of their people.
What is strange about your post is, English is obviously your second language. What is your first?
I wonder again if it’s realy strange that i am not a native English speaker, however, i am impressed with your accurate notice
I’ll answer this just for your curiosity. I am a Middle Eastern and my first language is Arabic……… I have the bless to understand Quran just as it was revealed from His All Mighty God…….. I hope i am not adding flame to your prejudice
to add to this Issue, I have moved between all this man-made theories and Ideologies for many years, before I finally find out, by thinking and reading, that no one knows whats better for human race than the one who created it at the first place……… think about it.
anyway,sorry for talking too much, but I enjoyed being here with you and express my feelings.
I got to run now, its time for Salah Fajer ( Morning prayers).
Its Ok guys, you can keep throwing your Insults on me, I might catch with you later and read what you have to say.
Sam says his comment has “obviously” made some people angry. No. That is an insecure Muslim point of view. No one’s angry, sam. Your problem is, we don’t gived a crap.
You’re talking primeval rubbish, though. You say 1/4 of the world is Muslim, which may be true. One quarter of the human race is below the mean level of intelligence, and it’s nice to have them all gathered together in a neat little bundle.
Tidy.
sam-j
Your argument will get a lot further if Muslims stop trying to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Stop threatening anyone who draws cartoons of some religious figure. Stops flying airplanes into tall buildings, blowing up commuter trains, all in the name of Allah. What kind of a God demands that people die because they don’t bow to Mecca? What kind of a God demands that mothers send their children off to blow up buses and people in shops?
My God sent his son into the world to atone for our sins; your God demands you send your son to atone for your sins.
——————
On free speech:
“you should not exercise what you consider as your freedom of speech on other Innocent people around you regardless of their feelings.”
Why? Is there a risk that they will lose their faith in Islam? I’ll let you know a little ‘secret’: the triumph of free-will is to ignore what other people say!
On Iraq:
Our troops are in Iraq to destroy the radical Islamic fascists and help the ordinairy Iraqis rebuild their society.
On pornography:
Whilst many women (and men) may not approve of pornography, very few of them think it is a “weapon to destroy humanity”. Many people regard pornography as a vice which should be tolerated because employing the means to eradicate it would only compromise our freedom. On the other hand, many people like it and rightly refuse to apologise for it when it is the product of an exercise of free-will between consenting adults who are responsible for their own lives.
On Islam vs Secularism:
“unfortunately your secularism has no refrence but the non-proven theories that prove its failure every now and then”
Oh yes it does. The most destructive war ever fought on this planet ended only 61 years ago – it was fought in the defence of national self-interest and individual liberty (which in that case were pretty much the same thing).
Besides there is nothing wrong with unproven theories – when they are not meant to be proved.
On prophecies:
The modern sciences of the west may be concerned with small-scale ‘prohecies’ (we call them ‘predictions’) about the physical world, but are generally not concerned with large-scale prophecies about the social and political world.
Of course we are concerned with predicting the social and political world, precisely because we are interested in the consequences of our actions but we generally recognise our limitations in doing so.
Besides, it is the Koran that is full of rediculous prophecies is it not?
On materialism:
“The poorest, most backward people in the world are from the religion of peace….this could be true in your material way of thinking”
Actually it is true. Not only are people in the West better off materially than people in the Middle East, but we have many more opportunities for challenge and adventure that test the human spirit to its’ limits.
I liked this bit the most :
My only criticism being it’s too easy.
Sorry, that’s the way we do things in our countries. No one’s forcing you to read the cartoons, which were published in Denmark for a Danish audience. What makes you think you have the right to interfere in the Danish society? Kinda makes you look like a hypocrite when you demand the interfering Americans get out of Iraq.
Of course they’re aware. And I’d wager that most rationalist, educated, Western women (some of whom are commenting here) would defend to the point of death the right of women to act in such productions – because it means maintaining their freedom to choose. it’s their choice. Okay, the job of a pornography actor is not for most. But if one chooses to do it – male or female, and I believe that most are paid well for the position – why is it exploitation? Well, that’s a brief introduction to a concept called liberty for you. However, it’s obvious you really don’t understand the it in the slightest. Liberty is not freeing others from all the things you think are morally wrong, sam-j. That’s called tyranny, and the Muslim faith seems to actively encourage this.
It’s because you are judging a civilization and a value system that you obviously know nothing about.
I don’t really believe the “against the will of their people” – I think most muslims would rather not live under a bunch of mad mullahs, but that’s not my major point. Have you ever stopped to wonder why the Muslim countries that have enduringly embraced (elements of) Western values/technology and created the strongest ties with the West are the richest Islamic countries, and the those that remain the most fundamentally Muslim and anti-West are the poorest and most poverty stricken? A thought for you.
And once again we see Perry’s steel trap observation confirmed. You seem to view us as wayward Muslims who just need to reprioritise our current-day lives with our inherent belief in Allah, the creator. You do realise that we don’t believe that Allah was the almighty creator, right? Some of us believe in the Christian God, some of us emphatically don’t, some of us aren’t willing to place bets either way, but live their lives without fear of him. So urging me to “think about it” does nothing to confirm your point of view in my eyes – or others. Judging by your writings, I’m confident I understand you; you’re an ideologue. You, however, have absolutely no understanding of my position or what makes me tick. You seem to think I’m a corrupted version of you and with a little prodding and invoking the name of Allah, I’ll come around to your way of thinking. Sam-j, believe this: I’ll never come around to your way of thinking because I simply don’t believe or accept any of the things you do that make you a Muslim, and especially the fundamental things. I abhor many of the teachings of Islam, and would rather die than submit to them. I look at a great number of Islamic societies in open horror and consider them some of the worst manifestations of the human condition history has seen. I will resist Muslim influence creeping into the society I live in if it starts to interfere with my life and my freedoms. And the more I “think about it”, the less Muslim I become.
Actually they haven’t. Their bombing attempts are generally clumsy, ill-planned and extremely badly executed. They don’t have any concept of explosive mass to blast ratios (7/7 bombings) or indeed of bomb detonation timing mechanisms. Essentially these terrorists have about the same knowledge of explosive devices as monkeys do, believing (as in the 21/7 bombings in London) that if the bomb goes off then it is the Will of God, rather than down to science – although, of course, I doubt that a monkey believes in Islam.
Please, let’s not give these people any more credit than they are due.
Sam-J asks have we ever wondered why a quarter of the world’s population is Islam – and yes, I imagine most of us have.
Given the nature of most countries under the sway of Islam, it’s fairly easy to discern levels of ignorance through poverty, fear, hysteria and terror. It’s easy then to assume that those are factors in the high conversion rate. It’s hard for us in the west – with all our admitted faults – to see for example how the Taliban stopping women being doctors actually helped anyone in Afghanistan, or how exploding bombs on public transport systems (and killing people of all faiths) moves the Islamic ideal forward.
Unless the ideal is to kill and deny liberty.
As for Iraq… yes, indeed, we wonder why on many levels. Mostly we wonder why the Muslim world likes dictators who murder whole chunks of their own population – who inevitably are also Muslim – on some tribal basis. The unquestioning defence of these barbarians puzzles us.
Islam should allow itself to consider why most people who die in Iraq are Muslims killed by other Muslims – not accidentally, but deliberately. If the US and UK and the rest withdrew troops, would the killing stop at once? No, I didn’t think so either.
In case Sam-J wonders, I do like some of the Islamic religion, but then I also like chunks of other religions and I would be sorry to see them disappear in a violent quest for a one-world religion that, in many cases, harbours intolerance towards women and gays and people who simply don’t want to be part of it.
But as much as I admire the Rumi and the Sufis and am intrigued by the architectural legacy of the Islamic faith I would be angry to be denied the chance to know about Taoism and Buddhism and meet with Quakers. Maybe even become part of the Wiccan religion if I so chose.
Or have no religion at all and do the best I can for the society I am part of.
It may stagger Muslims but we do think freedom of choice is best, and despite the entrenched views of their religion, we would strive to keep this ideal. Please don’t think we are the same as our spineless leaders.
Sam-J: Go ahead and practice your faith among us, build your mosques with your fellow-believers and read your holy book for comfort. But please keep it to yourselves. We are not ripe for conversion and fear may not be enough to persuade us.
Even seeking to stop the publication of a series of moderately amusing cartoons in a newspaper suggests that there is only fear and repression available in Islam, which I am sure is not the case. But we do need to see evidence of tolerance on the part of the Islamic world. Demanding we do nothing that “offends” you is in its own way offensive to our deep-seated principles of freedom of speech and action. (Yes I know we have a current government bent on removing those, but this will pass if we are alert.)
We live in an extraordinary world of many people and many skills and beliefs. Some of us here believe in liberty and choose accordingly.
Islam wants respect. So do those of us who do not want to be part of it. Please accord us that freedom so we can live side by side.
…..Prophet Mohammed is the greatest man you will ever hear of, he brought peace and justice to this modern world……
Uh, Wasn’t the Prophet a warrior????
Its sad to see their fellow Vikings in Norway cow-tow to pressure for the Islamic hordes.
What is so wrong about this statement? There are plenty of countries in the EU who are scared stiff about winding up their Islamic citizens lest they start blowing up public transport (as in the UK) or killing people who offend them (like Theo Van Goth etc). There are serious death threats against politicians who criticise Islam all over Europe. Polls in the UK after 7/7 showed the extent the bombers had amounst Muslims…no politician is going to ignore that.
Hi…. its me again
the only reason i am getting back to this discussion is just to express my wonder of how you people can also be fundamentalists and extremist that refuse to show tolerance towards those who dont agree on your freedom to hurt them with no basis as some of you on this blog confessed.
otherwise, I have started to believe that is a discussion of deaf, a discussion between different species as the writer of the article put it.
well…. as we are here today in this lovely Freedom contest, I would like to give you guys something worth to think about
Most of you who stand here today to defend your freedom of speech which allow you Insult other Innocent peolpe and to cause them a sever harm by Insulting thier beloved ones with no basis. most of you think that its OK to do so, and its others ( Insulted ) people problem to deal with it and to accept this shamless fact……… well, this is only applied in your modern, civilized, sophesticated systems.
As we agreed that this is a discussion between to different species, so your irresponsible freedom system does not have to be applied on other species living on this earth, you dont have the right to tell other people how they should tolerate your systems, you shouldnt apply your standards on others (for a change).
So, what if some other extremist species came to you with a new terminology called the Freedom-of-Reaction…….. new one haaa…… and it happend by chance that they believe according to their culture that its OK by them to hurt those who Insult them by any way they believe appropriate.
If we agreed that you the extremist of freedom and the extremist Muslims are two different species and and there are NO any Human constitutions or public organization are allowed to limit each other freedom. and to organize the treatments between the different species…….( I like this species thing )
So in this case you dont have the Right to deny others freedom of reaction by what they believe it’s Ok to be done for those who Insulted them……….. It’s ultimate Freedom… isnt it?
although I dont believe of any harmful reaction towards others in such cases.
I think you got something to think about……just for a change !!!
Just have one more thing to comment on:
On Iraq:
Our troops are in Iraq to destroy the radical Islamic fascists and help the ordinairy Iraqis rebuild their society.
by the way, if as some of you might think that Hitler is not Christian, he just happend to be born in a society of a Christian majority, which I also believe so, So how can you consider Saddam as an Islamic leader just because he role a multi-ethnic country with a majority of muslims……… stop using your double standards for God sake.
anyway, I realy like this one, but I think you are joking, you cant be serious, can you ?…….. you realy remind me with the old cartoons about superman, and batman……… so you people are the new saviors of the world, are you .
anyway if you realy believe in this…….its good……. at least I know that you in the west have finally found something worth to die for….. so you are now more able to understand that SOME of suicide bombers might have something worth to die for according to thier culture of course. NOT your culutre that believe in DIALOUGE to solve its problems…… such as the Iraqi case for instance……. Ironic, Isnt it ?
well, lets suppose that you really buy this crap, would this quote from one of the blogers be a rational answer to you
What makes you think you have the right to interfere in the Danish society?
well….it seems that you are not satisfied yet……. I know
Ok let me say this to you: havent you learnt at your secular, civilized schools that in your materialistic systems, which some of you are proud of, and in your capitalist societies, there is NO WAY that your governments spend your Tax Dollars on military actions and take your sons and loved ones to die in some country they never heard of, JUST to help the ordinary Iraqies
How noble they are in fact, especially the false accusations they use of the ( weapons of mass destruction ) to achieve thier noble mission.
Havent you ever considered the Idea that they might be there to STEAL the ordinary Iraqies’ OIL……. and bring it back home to run your high tech technologies free of charge………. another good point to think about.
As most of your comment is risible gibberish, I will just concentrate on the first bit.
How do you figure I am not showing tolerance for you? I am perfectly happy to tolerate you and your idiotic beliefs. That does not mean I must accept them as rational or correct.
If I did not tolerate you, I would be calling for you to be arrested or have one of our nifty western smart bombs dropped in your general direction (depending on context). That is what it means to not be tolerated… the Islamic equivalent being when Islamists call for people to be arrested and ‘punished by the government’ or threatened with death-via-fatwa when you guys do not tolerate something.
When there is no tolerance, the only thing left is force, and that is a game you really do not want to play with a civilisation vastly more powerful that yours.
I think you need to look up the meaning of the word tolerate. Just because someone tolerates Islam that does not mean they must therefore refrain from ridiculing it.
The only thing these Muslims need to know is summed up in a few short words:
“Gott ist tot”
Yes, God really is dead. Now just get over it and rise above the limitations your ‘God’ placed on your humanity. Millions in the western world have cast off that childish psychological crutch and begun to look for something better. The hand of reason reaches out to those in the Islamic world too and it beckons to all those who have the strength of will to rise up and be more that human sheep.
Many “Christians” have done this via the easy route of rather than pulling off the bandage of religion in one heroic act of will, which is always painful, they have just allowed religion to fade away like some band-aid that eventually gets washed off after taking several showers: people in the west who are nominally Christian in truth are nothing of the sort, They go to church to get married and to bury their loved ones and that is all. In reality, God has no place in their lives and that is as it should be.
The Muslims say “there is no God but God (Allah) and Mohammed is his prophet”… but the key to your true salvation as human beings can be extracted from that phrase – just take the first four worlds and throw away the rest, seeing them as the shackles of slavery that they are.
THERE IS NO GOD
Do that and you will have taken your first steps into the real world.
As most of your comment is risible gibberish
well… excuse my French.
anyway let me try to put this in a simple way so you can figure it out.
in your culutre, You believe that you have the right to Insult other people ( Muslims in this case) , at any time and any way you like. ( No one have to accept this, but you demend others to respect it )
in Other cultures, Some Insulted Muslims believe that they have the right to take any action with those who Insulted them at any time they like and any way they like ( again no one have to accept this, but they demand others to respect it ).
So, who is the judge in this case ?
When there is no tolerance, the only thing left is force, and that is a game you really do not want to play with a civilisation vastly more powerful that
yours
very nice, I see that you also approve of using force at some point………
what is this ? am I talking to a some sort of Freedom worrier !!!
It would appear that contrary to some previous comments, a French newspaper has indeed sided with the Danes by publishing an edition reproducing all the “offending” cartoons and its own attempt at blasphemy on its front cover. The BBC is running the story here (Link)
There is still hope left in the world. Someone had the courage to do something. Now we will wait and see for a reaction. Perhaps withdrawla of diplomatic missions in France as well?
I don’t think there’s any point rationalizing with sam-j anymore. Let his incomprehensible ranting stand as a chilling symptom of the problem we face.
The Muslims say “there is no God but God (Allah) and Mohammed is his prophet”… but the key to your true salvation as human beings can be extracted from that phrase – just take the first four worlds and throw away the rest, seeing them as the shackles of slavery that they are.
THERE IS NO GOD
Do that and you will have taken your first steps into the real world.
Again the civilization of Irony and double standards is waving with another bright Idea that will save the world
if your secular citizens and newspapers believe that THERE IS NO GOD, wouldn’t this be a non-sense action to draw and Insult something they believe dont exist.
am I talking with bunch of schizophrenic bloggers here !!!
Correct. You have no right to not be offended by me and I have no right not to be offended by you. That is exactly what tolerate means.
It makes no logical sense to tolerate intolerance.
Indeed. That is what intolerance means. If you do not tolerate something, you try to prevent the intolerable.
That is what we call reason, that is how we judge in this case. If we refuse to tolerate each other (i.e. I refuse to allow you to express your idiotic religious views and you refuse to tolerate my criticism of your religion), then all we are left with is violence. The alternative is toleration. I am willing to let you express things I find deeply offensive yet you do not seem to think I (or Jyllands-Posten) should be allowed to do that same. So by your logic, all that is left is violence. Well we are better at that than you so are you sure you want to go down that route? By my logic, tolerating each others offensive views make more sence than killing each other.
Of course! Did you think I was a pacifist? If a group of people (i.e. some Muslims) refuse to tolerate others expressing views they find offensive, even though those people are willing to tolerate them (Jyllands-Posten), then all that is left is force. If you wish to use force to prevent them from expressing their views, why should they not be willing use force used to stop you from getting what you want? Fighting for freedom (literally) is not just rational, it is essential.
JW: Insh’Allah!
sam-j, I understand how painful it is, I really do, but reality is reality. You cannot stop people from refusing to accept that the fantasy at the core of your culture is a good reason to stop them saying what they want to say.
The truth is that what Jyllands-Posten did was intended to prove that secular western value in Denmark have not been eroded by alien Islamic values. It worked and they won and by not letting it drop, muslims around the world are well on the way to turning a tactical success by an obsure danish newspaper into a glorious triumph for enlightenment values.
It was an act of will by which these Danes defended their values against yours. That you cannot even see you have fallen into a trap that bites harder the more you fight against it is a measure of the irrationality of your position.
I urge you to set aside your reactive pride and wounded sensibilities and try to think your way out of where you are. Islam is submission to a bunch of words expressing meaningless concepts. So please, use your human intellect and above all your WILL to become more that an empty conduit for the worlds of a long dead man from a more primitive age.
If you wish to use force to prevent them from expressing their views, why should they not be willing use force used to stop you from getting what you want? Fighting for freedom (literally) is not just rational, it is essential
Well……. very good, I think this quote would be a very good one to be used as a bottom line for this discussion……. at least by my side.
Fighting for freedom (literally) is not just rational, it is essential
So maybe we both agree, finally, on the Muslims freedom to protect their believes from being Insulted, even If they have to fight for it.
we also agree on the Palestinians freedom to vote for Militant group Hamas to stand for their rights of Free state and unoccupied lands…… without this democratic results shocking the modern world.
we may also agree on the Iraqis right to fight for their freedom and to stop those bunch of thieves from stealing their OIL. even if they choose to die for it, we should respect their choice, without this being called terrorism.
Thanks Perry, this was Interesting.
No, Sami, you just can’t get it into your tiny, rigid Muslim brain. You say we believe we have a right to insult other people. Well, strictly speaking, we do. We have free speech and freedom of expression. So anyone is free to insult me and take the consequences.
Mostly, we are a polite society. We don’t insult one another.
Again, you are too religiocentric. You cannot understand in that constricted little brain of yours that the cartoons Jylland-Posten published were not published with the intent of insulting Muslims. The rest of the world spend 24 hours a day not thinking about Muslims. They were published because the cultural editor had noticed a depressing and dangerous tendency to self-censorship. When an author who’s written a book about Mohammad – why would anyone bother? – asked for help finding an illustrator willing to work with him, he put out the call in the newspaper. The book was in Danish. The cartoons are in Danish. The newspaper is Danish. It is written in Danish for Danish people. Sorry, Sami, but your religion is not in the picture.
You stupid people are behaving like a concert hall full of adolescent girls shrieking at a pop group. Dear god, you people are way too excitable.
Don’t try to tell us what to do in our own countries and do not try to impose your primitive desert superstitions on the enlightened West. Try to think of one thing you people invented. Just be grateful that the wonderful products we have invented are available for sale in the hellholes you come from.
(No. You didn’t invent zero. The Indians did. So, in fact, did the Mayas, independently. Not the Arabs. Zero simply transitted through the Middle East on its way to Europe, where we knew how to utilize it.)
if your secular citizens and newspapers believe that THERE IS NO GOD, wouldn’t this be a non-sense action to draw and Insult something they believe dont exist.
How does an idea feel offence? How do you insult an idea?
For this is all religions are — ideas. Despite all their claims to divinity, they merely represent ideas of man. And frighteningly silly ideas they are at that. I have just as much right to say that you’re a stupid person for believing in a religion as I would be to call a Lysenkoist an idiot for believing in Lysenkoism. Just because a religion claims to have come from some mystical higher being does not change its status as merely an idea of man.
Your big fairy in the sky is no more valid than anybody else’s big fairy in the sky, and no more valid than believing in the magical powers of Harry Potter.
Firstly, if you are indeed living in Saudi Arabia then you are not exactly the most qualified person to be sneering about capitalism, secularism or indeed civilization. As much as I do hold your country and it’s people in high regard I am completely unable to comprehend your abyssmal treatment of other races and sexes – a treatment that goes above and beyond whatever the Holy Koran calls for.
Secondly, and please do correct me if I’m wrong on this point, but didn’t we send “our sons and loved ones to die in some country they never heard of, JUST to help the ordinary
IraqiesSaudis” some time ago? I seem to recall something around August 1990 where Saudi Arabia screamed like a stud camel caught between 2 bricks when Saddam attacked Kuwait and then told you guys that you’re next.Thirdly, of course oil comes into it. As much as we’d love to run our societies on nice clean uranium and plutonium energy cells (never mind – we’d still need somewhere to dump the residual waste) but until then we must have hydrocarbons for all those cars and the awesome military machines we need to liberate more oil … oops “Iraqies” … from the Middle East.
BTW, a couple of commenters above have stated their opinion that there is no god. This is not a universal opinion in the West. Hundreds of millions of people believe in a Christian and/or Jewish god. But the people who are not believers have a perfect right to state their case, and to be dogmatic about it if they choose. Christianity and Judaism are strong enough to take dissent. No one minds.
I want to fight for the freedom to express what I want to express and I do not want to deny you that freedom either, because my view is stronger and so can survive whatever it is you have to say… you want to fight to prevent people for expressing things you do not like, which shows the weakness of your world view.
.
That is why there can be no compromise between us. I will tolerate you but like any dance, it takes two to tango. You are willing to fight for the ‘right’ of Muslims to have their fragile world view protected from criticism by non-believers. Yet you want the right to say the absurd and offensive things you people say. That is what makes you not just ‘someone with different views’ but rather ‘the enemy’.
This all has nothing to do with Iraq or Hamas or the Palestinians.
Jesus, Julian Taylor, you hold Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabians in high regard? Why? What have they ever done that would give rise to admiration? They’re one of the nastiest countries on the planet.
I think the reason we have all responded to Sami’s points, as unrooted in reality as they are, is he is both interesting and alarming. This is a fascinating glimpse into the locked shut, rigid Muslim mind. This, we can see is the result of brainwashing since birth.
Sami is clearly intelligent but deeply, abysmally ignorant and bigotted. He has absolutely no concept of freedom. He doesn’t understand that normal people spend 24 hours a day not thinking about his horrible “religion”; it’s all important to him. It’s the universe. His leader was a paedophile who married a six year old girl. He was a thoroughly nasty piece of work, but he was a good leader of a warrior cult. That is all Islam is. And terribly, terribly outdated.
But I for one have been interested in Sami’s efforts even though they have been accusatory, riddled with superstition and proselytising. He still doesn’t understand what the rest of the world finds disgusting about Islam. It is astounding.
Wow! I’ve just seen over at Albion’s Seedlings (link on the left of the screen) that not just France, but Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain and Iceland are running the cartoons! (Shame about Britain.)
Message to desert lice: don’t mess with the enlightened, free democratic West.
I urge you to set aside your reactive pride and wounded sensibilities and try to think your way out of where you are. Islam is submission to a bunch of words expressing meaningless concepts. So please, use your human intellect and above all your WILL to become more that an empty conduit for the worlds of a long dead man from a more primitive age.
I am not going to repeat myself, I have already made some comments about this form of prejudice and Ignorant towords other cultures , without even uderstand them. Stop judging people with your standards, try to understand theirs.
some of you tried to make me look like i am trying to preach about Islam, I wonder who is trying to preach about his Ideologies………….. this comment from MAX might be the third or fourth attempt asking me directly to dump my believe and follow your fellow atheist, and perhaps you will grant me the privilege to Insult other Innocent people……….. thanks, but no thanks.
Please get real guys, I am not trying to preach about Islam, I just tried to explain my reasons to adore my believe…….. and at the end all i ask from you is respect to other people’s feelings and not to Insult their loved ones, especially that our great prophet is not one of your Danish citizens, so why dont you just test your freedom of speech on something that actually belongs to your culutre.
why dont you, for instance, replace the drawings of our prophet, by a drawings of your Queen……… no kidding……. I really suggest that you test your freedom on your belongings. ( obviously you have enough guts to do it )……. dont you think that this would be more logical according to your standards.
The truth is that what Jyllands-Posten did was intended to prove that secular western value in Denmark have not been eroded by alien Islamic values
In other words you say that you approve to come to an Innocent man and slap him on the face just to check how strong you are…….. this was just an example.
Whatever the issues about copywrite, Die Welt has published one of the cartoons here (Link) but in spite of an article sympathetic to the Jyllands-Posten in Spiegel’s newsletter (this one in English) here(Link), they don’t actually show any. True to form the sneering left paper Die Berliner Zeitung gets itself wrapped round the axle when it says “if we really want to protect our values, then we should respect this call for boycott and just accept the sacrifices they will incur”. That is, if we really want to protect our values we should ensure that they never have to be tested or exercised. The disgusting Tageszeitung even went one further and claimed that Jyllands Posten — “which is considered the mouthpiece of right-reactionaries in Denmark” — knew what it was getting itself into. So that makes it OK then. Not only are they reactionaries and therefore deserve anything they get, but they could have predicted it. The fault lines are getting even clearer.
Andrew Dodge:
Its sad to see their fellow Vikings in Norway cow-tow to pressure for the Islamic hordes.
What is so wrong about this statement?
Only the reference to ‘fellow Vikings’ which rather suggests that people ought to act in particualr ways because of their ethnic origins.
Verity,
You always seem angry to me… But it isn’t the least astounding that Sam-j should be unaware of alternate perspectives on the world. And there’s no reason to assume he ought to understand “what the rest of the world finds disgusting about Islam”, because I suggest you are imputing your own views to the world–including large parts of it that know and think nothing about Islam, and those like me who find its doctrines repugnant but aren’t in category-2…
Sam-j,
Perry is tolerating you. He’s reading what you have to say and arguing with you, which is slightly more than mere toleration.
The conception of toleration around here is to let others continue in their own habits and beliefs without interfering with them unless they attempt to force them on others. But that also means you may not stop others doing or saying what they like only because you don’t like it–because you are offended or insulted.
When Perry is intolerant you’ll know about it: he deletes without mercy comments that damage the discussion.
But the very essence of TOLERANCE is that I can be as ‘prejudiced’ and ‘ignorant’ about your culture as I like, just so long as I do not try to stop you from expressing your views (regardless of how ignorant I may think they are). Tolerance means I can indeed judge you by MY standards, just so long as I do not try to use force to stpo you expressing yourself.
Like this, for example?
Do you think I am going to be arrested now for insulting the Queen? I think not.
Not at all, because that is using force. Haven’t you been readling a single thing I wrote? Even threatening to slap him in the face is unacceptable.
Apparently the cartoons are running in France-Soir.
One of them ran in Mexico today!
And Guy Herbert, you often appear arrogant and pontificating. I wouldn’t have mentioned it except you made a personal comment about me. I’m not “always angry” any more than you are “always smug”. Let’s not fight. I always enjoy your posts.
what is this ? am I talking to a some sort of Freedom w[a]rri[o]r !!!
Perry correcting someone else’s spelling..?!
Sam-j,
why dont you, for instance, replace the drawings of our prophet, by a drawings of your Queen……… no kidding……. I really suggest that you test your freedom on your belongings. ( obviously you have enough guts to do it )……. dont you think that this would be more logical according to your standards.
That really doesn’t shock us, you know. Personal and political attacks on the royal family and on local religious figures are absolutely normal here. Jesus, though Christians believe him actually to be God, not just a prophet, features in a lot of jokes. The Danes were surprised by the big fuss from Muslims about these cartoons.
Mark H. : I’m sure you know Berlin, its “Linkisch” politics & its miserable press….so no surprizes there.
It was all very interesting and would have been even better if the mosque-rat had been half-way intelligible.
Kipling comes to mind.
John Steele:
I have to say: an equally barbaric idea. Unsure why it’s more acceptable for a god to act this way than a human. And the OT God tried to see if Abraham would do the same with his son. Not much of an example to set.
Attacking Islamic behaviour by comparing it with an equally bloody set of myths, some with a shared heritage as yours, doesn’t seem like a good plan to me.
I’m drawn to this quote of the Captain of Road Prison 36, (played by Strother Martin). Speaking to Cool Hand Luke (Paul Newman)
i consider myself a progressive muslim and found some of the cartoons quite funny, with a few somewhat distasteful. i believe most muslims will feel more strongly about it then me. in one southeast asian country some years ago, they banned the movie ‘bruce almighty’ as it was considered blasphemous by some quarters (certainly the censorship board, among others).
however, not all muslims will be outraged. which brings me to my next point.
i am sure the editors were well aware of the outcome of printing those cartoons. many muslims would have instinctively condemned it, as it is indeed against our religion to portray the prophet in any visual form. in any case, it amounts to pure speculation, if not entertainment… i believe that most muslims will not accept this. it is anathema. someone mentioned the holocaust as being nothing more than a lie – imagine printing a cartoon of that. while it is legally perfectly fine to do so under free speech laws, and morally defensible in these modern days, the issue most muslims will have is simply, “what was the point of that?”.
here we risk actualizing a self fulfilling prophecy. we have a right to express our unhappiness, whether we consider it an act of carelessness, calculated provocation, or plain disrespect.
but how much do we value face? by going all out to show how insensitive the kafir are, we inch closer towards the intolerant, jihadist stereotype the mainstream media propogates. consider surah al-baqara verse 26 and surah al-kafirun. you may think i’m not devoted enough to defend my religion against yet another proof of the infidel’s plan to smear the good name of islam’s prophet. i prefer to do that by engaging non-muslims in the thoughtful, patient and spiritual light which islam offers.
but nobody’s perfect… and whatever it is, just pass the cup / joint / fries and lets be friends! perhaps a blog or community willing to undergo a continuous challenge process to verify all sources of ‘revelation’, for starters? forget the manufactured truth, historical baggage and dirty politics… lets talk. peacefully. and help everyone come to a better understanding of ourselves and each other. insya-allah.
Sorry to come late to this one but reading through I have the very strong suspicion that Sam-J is a spoof.
If he isn’t! well stick around Sam love , I’ve been busy!
What worries me is the sudden bursts from Pidgin to coherent english, vernacular included.
Quite apart from his touchy point of view, like the rest of you, I couldn’t care less about his religion, unless it impinges on my freedom.
Well, it does impinge on your freedom, RAB. Tony Blair was going to ram a bill through Parliament on religious hatred. If that had got through, it would have impinged on your freedom of speech big time. How much fun that he lost by his own vote, but the will to dominate and control was behind this bill, as was abject fear. I don’t think Blair fears for Britain, or gives a crap about Britain, but he’s scared for himself and his “kids”.
if you are indeed living in Saudi Arabia
where Saudi Arabia screamed like a stud camel caught between 2 bricks when Saddam attacked Kuwait and then told you guys that you’re next.
You sound very sure about my origin country…….. sorry my friend I am not saudi neither i am Iraqi, I even have my own point of view about how these two countries are being ruled.
In fact my friend, iam a Muslim by Instinct, and a proud PALESTINIAN, but I live out of my country, and I am not even allowed to visit my homeland……. if you wonder why, although i am sure most of you know the answer, it’s simply because my family was kicked out of our lands when I was a kid by the force of weapons, so to let a bunch of radical Zionist build their houses on my land, where they claim a few hudreds of their ancients had lived something around two thounds years ago……. this had happened in front of all your enlightened, free democratic West
I am not here to weep my stolen land, I know very will how to cope with this blind democracy, and I am sure I will get back one day to practice my freedom to live in my homeland.
I just mentioned this Issue to tell Perry how this talk about freedom has everything to do with Iraq or Hamas or the Palestinians. there is a missing circle in the chain of freedom my friend. you are worried about your freedom to Insult someone you have never met, and who has never harmed you or your Ideas, while we are living the real action, people are being killed in hundreds, countries are bieng occupied for their OIL or Gold or other materialistic things ( somtimes for their Banana…….. have you ever heard about the African country called Banana Republic….. funny, isnt it )…….
but until then we must have hydrocarbons for all those cars and the awesome military machines we need to liberate more oil … oops “Iraqies” … from the Middle East
again another proud member of what so called enlightened, free democratic West
Pay attention guys, see where your free democratic west are taking us………. perhaps they are taking us back to the era of the corsairs, but just with more complicated mechines.
Mostly, we are a polite society. We don’t insult one another
Is that you Verity, or just someone speaking on your behalf
You always seem angry to me…
you’r right , as I see it….. verity cant do any better than throwing Insults here and there…….
However, it’s fine by me, but you will not succeed with taking me down with you to this low profile discussion about Insulting Holy Symbols………. this is not what I am here for.
And Guy Herbert, you often appear arrogant and pontificating. I wouldn’t have mentioned it except you made a personal comment about me
again as you cant do any better than throwing Insults, while you cant tolerate one reasonable personal comment about yourself…. then I will allow myself to make just one more peronal comment about you…… I hope you dont mind.
peronally, I believe that your problem is not with any Muslims or any other Ideologies……..
your problem is simply with yourself……… your problems is your Denial.
your denial for all the blesses around you, your denial for other people achievments.
you even have a bigger problem….. your denial for your creator and all the blesses he granted you. and in some way you give all the credits for what you belive to be your enlightened, smart, open-mind…… I personally dont have a problem with that, ( the Pharaoh of Egypt even claimed to be GOD), but, this is a very shortcoming for the universe you live in…….
Can you just answer one rational question:
have you created yourself, or you have been created !!! or maybe you are just a sort of sophisticated species that was developed from other species that had lived a hundred thousand years ago !!! or you may want to go further and tell me that you were made by some westren Artificial Intelligence machine……..
this is just a changing of the subject, any way dont answer now, I’ll leave it for you as a homework, cause it needs some thinking.
That is what makes you not just ‘someone with different views’ but rather ‘the enemy’.
you are free to choose your enemies……………. NO comment.
Oh I agree completely…. as long as one of the parties is not trying to use the law to stop the other from expressing things they may find distasteful
I was born. It is a biological process.
Those theories are every bit as weird as “I was created by some invisible entity called God”. I do not know the origins of life and I hate to break this to you, niether do you.
Sadly that is untrue. When people like you want to use force to prevent me and people like me from expressing themselves, you make yourself my enemy by your actions. I don’t see I have any choice in the matter as I do not regard surrender to the sort of Islamic values you are pushing as an available choice.
No he’s a spoof for sure please Allah!
Just hedging my bets there, y’all!
GCooper wrote: “So just be sure to buy Lurpak, Danish bacon and anything else from Denmark….”
Oh, definitely buy the bacon if you can: so, so apropos!
Well, the fuckwits have put an embargo on Danish insulin. As Denmark makes 80% of the insulin the world, it’s going to leave them with dangerously slim pickings. See? There’s always a bright side.
Now they will have to clear the supermarket shelves of anything from France, Holland, Germany, Spain, Italy, Norway and uh, Iceland. And hey, put those tacos back on the shelf! Oh, and they won’t be able to flood into Europe on Air France, or Lufthansa etc. So book now. You won’t have to sit next to a Muslim, especially a creepy one wearing a black sheet and pillowcase.
Sam-j – You sound like the Islamic version of Jehova’s Witnesses. Give it a break, for god’s sake! Keep your religion to yourself.
Sam J –
It’s a bit late in the discussion now, I know, but we should have defined our terms and asked what you meant by ‘insults’ against innocent persons.
If you meant the metaphorical insults of physical acts of violence, then you are right, and few here, I think, would disagree with you. It’s a long-standing tradition in the West that every person has a right to be safe – in his or her person, property and profession – from unjustified attack. Perry touched on this in one of his earlier posts. I am not free to insult you by slapping your face, by robbing your home or by sacking you from your job for unjust reasons. If I do any of those things, you have, in theory anyway, the power of the government behind you to support you and see that I am punished.
But if by ‘insults’ you mean words (written or spoken) or pictures, then that’s a different thing. We are free to say pretty much anything we want, as others have already said. The only limit, more or less, is if we tell lies about someone in public, then they have the sanction of the government to have us punished by using the court system that the government provides for us.
There is, however, no right not to be offended. If, for example, I tell Verity that her comments are often gratuitously harsh and over the mark and that I sometimes am offended by them, I’d bet money that she would say something like, “Tough shit. Live with it.” And quite right she would be, too. It’s my problem, not hers.
The right to say pretty much what we want, and the corresponding lack of a right not to be offended, means that, for instance, I could stand up in public and point out that there is some pretty good historical evidence that Islam is really just an old Christian heresy. There are some Early (Christian) Church Fathers who were there in the early days of Islam who certainly regarded it as such, and some very good scholars working on just that theory today.
Or I could tell people about the not-so-well-known event early in the life of the Qu’ran when, to get rid of the embarrassing bits and to give the book some intellectual coherence, it was heavily edited, an authorised edition sent out and all the variant texts collected and destroyed.
The point is, I could stand up in public and say these things and, assuming anyone cared enough to listen to me, I would be perfectly free to say them and not have to worry about whether anyone is offended. That’s what freedom of speech means, what’s behind the Danish cartoons, and what people here get in to such an almighty lather about.
Sam-j – You sound like the Islamic version of Jehova’s Witnesses. Give it a break, for god’s sake! Keep your religion to yourself.
I understand that this sort of questions might be hard for you to think about with your limited brain, but again I am not trying to preach My religion here. however, it’s good to know that there are some other rational thinking people around……..
I was just trying to give you something serious to think about, for a change, rather than throwing your Insults on others and showing your madness and intolerence for others.
Actually 20,000 read us on a good day.
By the way, anyone catch that remark by John Humphrys t’other week on the Today programme when, after stumbling over the pronunciation of ‘Samizdata’, he said it was the blog ‘everyone read’?
To be fair to sam-j, I think this particular discussion would be hard to have if visiting Muslim commenters were not to expounding their religious perspectives. It is certainly not ‘off topic’.
Well explained, RobtE, but he still won’t grasp it. They are taught from birth not to think. The koran has all the answers. You don’t have to think. Don’t try to figure anything out. Allah’s done it all for you. Just accept. This is why I have only flown on an Islamic airline a few times, with crossed fingers. Because if something goes wrong in the cockpit, a thousand ideas are going to flood into the pilot’s mind; he’s going to process and disgard them in nanoseconds, and try his first choice of action. If that doesn’t work, he go frantically on to option two. Because Westerners take action to control events.
An Islamic pilot is going to think, “It’s god’s will” and sit back waiting to go to paradise. BTW, I flew on Syrian Arab once. The plane was almost empty (around eight passengers on a 747) because guess what! We left an hour early! Anyway, I ordered a Scotch and they brought me a bottle of Black Label and a glass.
Well, Perry, touché. That was a pretty idiotic of me.
Actually I am quite glad that a Muslim gentleman should express his views on Samizdata. It does indeed open our eyes to the fact that many Muslims do have personal views above and beyond the carefully selected expressions of hatred for the West or the adoration of terrorism or martyrdom that we so often are tactically exposed to by the BBC and similar, and I do apologise for mistakenly presuming that you were a Saudi Mr sam-j.
Yes indeed, but I bet we could find that chunks of our bible were embarassingly edited as well. I daresay that St John’s Revelations came in for some very heavy reviewing and even in our day and age I should think that many editors would stop and say, “wow, this guy definitely had too many mushrooms – let’s cut some of this stuff here”.
I do not know the origins of life and I hate to break this to you, niether do you.
well perry, its sad that you dont know the origin of life till this moment, and I hate to break this to but I do know the origin of life, I do have more structured chain of scientific evidences than the one my parents told me at the age of five that I was born through a biological process…….. the at the age of nine I will be told that it’s a sexual act……. then at the age of twelve i will be more conscious and I might want to have the freedom to experience this sexual act by my self…….. does that by any sense explain the abuse of sexuality in the west.
And Yes Verity, Allah told me about the basic elements of the world, Allah told me about the Big Bang in the Quran, Allah told me about Atom, and even more than that He( His almighty) told me about the ( Coark ) in the Quran, I am not sure about its spelling, but I think you know what I am talking about, and he told me about so many other scientific facts that were proven by the modern science that the secular people worship in one way or another.
My religion is sort of a final shape of the heavenly messages for human kind, therefore GOD gave me so many scientific hints to start my search with……… so why do I have to bother thinking of thouthands of rotten man-made theories that was experimented in the ancient past, while I have the starting point…….
Sure, that must be the reason why the Islamic world is so far ahead of everyone else technologically and in fields like theoretical physics and nanotechnology and why there are so many great centres of scientific learning in the Islamic world. That explains why all the best computers and medical drugs are made in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran and Pakistan and why all the best computer programmers are from Damascus and Tunis and why the aircraft manufacturing centers in Tripoli and Rabat are so impressive and why there are so many more Nobel prizes awarded to Muslims than to non-muslims and why…
sam-j – well what a shame you little desert dwellers didn’t listen to Allah and then you could have invented all the technological marvels that we have invented – but hundreds of years sooner! Go back to the koran and get Allah’s instructions for inventing the Ipod. Oh, wait a minute, are you allowed music?
You say you were giving me “something to think about”. I’m obliged.
However, I am going to share a little secret with you: This is a strictly Sixth form/sophmore debate. The pointlessness of arguing about religion seems to seep into most human brains around age 19 or 20 when they realise they could be out on dates.
Have you ever lived outside the ME and been subjected to civilisation and civilised discourse? Your points have beards on them, and I don’t mean the beard of the prophet; they’re elderly and trite. If your god told you about the atom – OK, I’m up off the floor from laughing and ready to continue – why didn’t you invent something with it?
In fact, let’s broaden the question: Why didn’t you invent something?
Anything.
Absolutely everything you have ever got has come from civilisations more advanced than your own.
I realise I’m late in the day, but it’s a most interesting exchange here…
sam-j: You keep talking about freedom of speech as the “freedom to insult”. Note that when people talk about freedom of speech and even explicitly the freedom to insult, that does not imply e.g. the freedom to harangue someone in the street as you seemed to suggest earlier when you wrote:
If I came to you and start to swear on your face in public and accuse you with things you never done, you can surly take me to court and sue me for this, and I might have to sell my house to pay you for the false accusations and the psychological harm I caused for you…. Right !!!
Note that you do not have to read this blog, or the newspaper that published the cartoons. It is entirely your choice to participate here or to read that paper or to view the websites that have the cartoons. Like many other commenters I’m glad you did participate here. It’s made for a good old blether (that’s a Scottish word for “chat” or “conversation”).
The cartoons concerned were published in a newspaper people were free to buy and read or not as they choose. No one forced them to view the cartoons.
To equate the publication of those cartoons with someone haranguing you in the street is thus a fallacious argument. The latter as an unwelcome intrusion into your life, the former is something you might or might not choose to read.
And I note that many Arab newspaper publish cartoons that many Jews or Israelis may find offensive (and having seen some of those cartoons the Danish ones seem quite innocuous in comparison) but I’ve never heard of outrage on the scale that many Muslims have shown in response to Jyllends-Posten.
Also, as noted elsewhere, this weblog has been tolerant of you — you attack the views expressed in this weblog, and attack the West and Western values. But you are still allowed to comment here on someone else’s website because the people who run this blog are interested in the discussion, interested in defending their beliefs in the face of your comments and interested in the battle of ideas.
However the reaction of many Muslims to a perceived attack on them by a newspaper, that most probably had never heard of until now and may not have even read despite their outbursts, has been not merely to protest or organise a boycott (as is their right much as I disagree with them!), but to threaten Scandinavians not to enter Palestine (as if all Scandinavians had collectively published the cartoons when it was some private newspapers and magazines) or to get their governments to break of diplomatic relations with Denmark or to send death threats or to lobby the UN to pass resolutions to condemn those who attack religious beliefs. A reaction wholely out of proportion to the alleged offence and one which seeks to suppress the freedom of the Danish press (and Western press generally by implication) to express their views.
Think on this: we calmly debate with you the rights and wrongs on this issue, and you seem willing to debate back. Yet many of your co-religionists think this insult is serious enough to warrant legal action, death threats and violence — which those defending the right of free speech do NOT advocate as rational responses to mere offence or insult.
Freedom of speech has to include the right to insult and offend people for one simple reason: you cannot tell the truth if those who would be offended or insulted by it would kill you or lock you up for it.
How would you like it if you lived in a society where it was illegal to preach Islam, or to express those things you believe to be true? If you can understand that, you can perhaps begin to understand why we value freedom of expression, including the freedom to ridicule and insult and cause offence.
The freedom to insult or offend allows us to say what we believe to be true without fear of anything more than a robust response from those we debate with.
This is why I think it is in your interests, Sam-j, to support freedom of speech.
Try to publish something that offends the rulers of Saudi Arabia or Iran or, prior to 2003, Saddam Hussein’s regime, and you’ll be ruthlessly suppressed. Whereas here in Britain for example, our politicians and govenrments are subjected to constant questioning, scrutiny and ridicule by academia, the media, comedians and, these days, the blogs and usenet groups.
I know which model I prefer!
Now insulting or offending people gratuitously for no reason other than to annoy them is rude (even that should not make it illegal except when you actively hassle someone or hound them giving them no escape i.e. when “expression” turns to harassment), but doing these things to expose intolerance or to get a message across is quite a different matter.
It seems to me the Danish newspaper aimed to expose/test the levels of intolerance in their society when they published the cartoons. The actual reaction has been very instructive. And I fully support them for doing it and the other European papers that have followed suit in solidarity.
Anyway, the freedom to express ones beliefs is crucial for anyone interested in open debate and scientific inquiry. It is also crucial for a functioning democracy that people be able to express their political beliefs without fear of reprisal. It is thus a major factor in the West’s success over the last few centuries — it enables the heretics and original thinkers who spur society to greater progress to speak out and show us a different way of looking at things that might just be better than the old way. That is despite the fact that the West has oftentimes fallen short of the ideal in practice.
Of course if you already believe you know The Truth as it was handed down to you from Allah via his Prophets and their disciples, you might regard all this as tosh. Until someone decides that you are the heretic…
Sure, that must be the reason why the Islamic world is so far ahead of everyone else technologically and in fields like theoretical physics and nanotechnology and why there are so many great centres of scientific learning in the Islamic world. That explains why all the best computers and medical drugs are made in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran and Pakistan and why all the best computer programmers are from Damascus and Tunis and why the aircraft manufacturing centers in Tripoli and Rabat are so impressive and why there are so many more Nobel prizes awarded to Muslims than to non-muslims and why…
Come on perry……. be fair…….
As you can see and, maybe experienced by yourself,that Islam is the number one Religion that is being fought by the secular west. we are not given the chance to practice our religion the way we should………..we are trapped with all this western false allegation about women rights and human rights and so on…… assuming that we dont understand this issues.
your freedom of speech and capabilities of conducting all the scientific researches and to invent all sort of things you talked about, are indeed protected by your filthy rich governments and their troops and their nuclear bombs that threaten to kill any nation that try to be equal to the west by having their nuclear energy sources.
our freedom of search and invent our own goods are Highjacked by some leaders and some companies that dont care about anything but how much money they will make.
this is all a bunch of political crap
Heh, Perry, don’t start on computer programmers as proof of an advanced culture, or you might have to start championing the merits of hinduism 😉
Interesting though, that 1/4 of the world is muslim, but even the rapacious capitalist outsourcers mostly employ folks in the areas that aren’t. Why are all the call centers in Bangalore and not Islamabad?
Truth is, the vast majority of people in the west do not give a damn about Islam. It is only when people who happen to be Muslims fly aircraft into our buildings and try to overturn our hard won traditions of tolerance (we have quite enough domestic enemies, we really do not need you guys adding to our problems), that Islam starts to ‘interest’ most people, and not in a good way.
Meaning what exactly? You mean like in Saudi Arabia? Or under the Taliban? Or in Iran? How should it be practiced? Nowhere in the Islamic world can make a go of it as a technically innovative and economically advanced society? Nowhere at all?
Clearly we disagree there. I find nothing to admire about the Islamic conception of women’s rights or human rights, whereas the things you hold up as dreadful about the west (capitalism, pornography, homosexuality, secularism, alcohol, drugs, women in miniskirts, disrspect for religion etc.) do not bother me in the slightest (in fact I am a great fan of capitalism, alcohol, secularism and pornography)… but that is not what this discussion is about. It is about tolerance (namely your lack of it).
Perhaps this discussion has run its course… we’ll see.
sam-j says we are not given the chance to practice our religion the way we should…
1. Not allowed to practise clitorectomies on little girls. Check.
2. Not allowed to beat your wive(s), even “gently” to reprimand them. Check.
3. Not allowed to marry more than one woman at a time. Check.
4. Not allowed to get your sons – or anyone else – involved in practising “HONOUR KILLINGS” against your daughters for going out with a normal young man or wearing lipstick. Check.
5. Not allowed to bury women who committed “adultery by virtue of being raped” up to their necks and have rocks thrown at their heads until they die. Check. Read above but insert the word “homosexuals”. Check.
6. Women have to remove bin liners from their heads before getting their photos taken for drivers’ licenses. Check.
7. Women’s testimony in a court of law counts for exactly equal that of a male. Check.
It’s a rigourous world out there, little Sami-j. You’re not up to it. Stay where you are and whine and wring your hands and cringe, begging on your knees, as is your tradition. You’ll get money out of the EU, but masters of the universe, you are not.
You’re backward people tied to a backward superstition and you have never done a thing for yourselves nor even, despite all this advance information from your god, invented one single technology.
This discussion is, I dare to think, about freedom of speech & expression……….so why does this comedian keep ranting about his bloody religion which he is free to practice anywhere in the Western World he despises. Christians, Jews & others do not enjoy this freedom in the pig-ignorant quarter of the world which is supposed to be Muslim……..and why do your self-styled Imams preach death & destruction in mosques to susceptible immigrant goat-herders? Answer the question. Don’t say it is not true; so stupid we are not. The security services here & the BND in Germany (God, how we need them) have the evidence on tape & video, which I have heared & seen. If YOU think you have been insulted you should listen to your own “Holy Men”. I think that suggestion is probably superfluous as I’m damned sure you are fully aware. We deported the Mosque-rat of Köln for preaching, in the “Moschee” that Germans are pigs, stink and use after-shave & perfume to hide their filth & would be better off dead. Check it out you miserable bigoted whiner….OK, not necessary. The Kölner hate-monger was sent back to Turkey(!) where he was promptly & rightly banged up for subversion in his own country. Some folk just never learn, do they.
Oh, wait a minute, are you allowed music?
No verity we are not allowed music, and I hope it’s not shocking for you that lots of muslims are OK with this fact, music is not an ecessity for us……….. can you understand this difference between culture, or also hard for you.
Have you ever lived outside the ME and been subjected to civilisation and civilised discourse?
well would it be enough for you to stop being prejudice if you know that Yes, I visited more than fifteen different countries, which nearly half of them were western, and I even worked with more western people than the ME people whom you met through your whole life…….. I guess……. would it be good for you to know that I even have a family living in the west
I dont know why I have to give Information about my personal life every now and then…….. it feels that I am being questioned by the High-Court-Of The West
well I dont have a problem with that, and may be it will stop you from being prejudice in any chance………… am I asking for too much…….. perhaps yes…….. I might be asking you not be your self.
check this little court action:
Are you Muslim? ……….. he he he
Have you ever visited any civilized country…….. I guess not…………… he he he
are you allowed music ?……………… ha ha ha
why dont you have Ipods?…………… he he he
take him to jail and kill him for not being infected with our rotten values.
it’s ok verity, you can keep laughing and celebrating your scientific achievments.
but the way I see it is that the new war of the world will not be scientific rather than a war of Ideologies
Actually, it seems they’ve invented a way to hold the remaining 75% of the world as a captive audience to their dogma. It’s pretty ingenious if you ask me.
You guys are being too harsh on the Islamists. The fact that they conquered the part of the world that was in those times (600 – 1400 AD) the centroid of human learning, commerce, science, art and medicine and then turned it into a backward, violent, depraved cesspool of dispair is not their fault.
Remember that you read it (again) in these pages, insh’Perry,………These people want to kill you.
but the way I see it is that the new war of the world will not be scientific rather than a war of Ideologies says the terminally dull sam-j.
Why do I find this statement amusing? I thought your god gave you all the answers to the atom? Couldn’t you use it?
Pathetic. My guess, you’re an adolescent boy who has a dull suspicion that life is not going have a fun dimension. Ever.
Can we have less out and out abuse please.
Julian –
I bet we could find that chunks of our bible were embarassingly edited as well.
Sure. But we could say such things – openly – without having to worry about the consequences and our saying them wouldn’t justify our punishment at the hand of the true believers.
“take him to jail and kill him for not being infected with our rotten values.”
sam-j, seriously, are you taking the piss? People here think you are wrong (and maybe some other things), but nobody wants to hurt you because you are disgusted by our western values. But you seem to want to hurt people who disagree with you. There’s an asymmetry here and you are on the wrong side of it. Rant against us (like you are doing) but that’s all you get.
Actually you are given that chance, and never more so than in the Western Hemisphere where one of our great tenets is the freedom of all religions – something I realise is an anathema in many Islamic nations. Perhaps one reason we are in a permanent state of confrontation with Islam is simply, as you have stated, that you are indeed trapped about women’s rights, human rights and so on. Unfortunately you seem to have created your own glass walls and ceiling through strict adherence to a seventh century creed, whereas other religions have not only adapted their beliefs to their advancements in civilization, but also encourage debate over the wisdom of many tenets of their own system of faith. It is eminently impractical in a modern age to insist that 50% of the planet’s population hide themselves away, not work unless with their husband’s permission or not even go out unless supervised by a man and dress in some bizarre medieval costume, simply because of what was written in the Qur’an; this despite the somewhat hypocritical claims that are dispersed by clerics to say that Islam respects women and doesn’t claim they should regarded as property.
Nobody is suggesting we should kill any nation that strives to use a cheap efficient fuel system, such as uranium or plutonium, to provide power for its people – especially when it is ourselves who stand to profit from the construction of such plants. Our problem is that we have to have checks and balances in position to ensure that that same power production system is not abused, as it was by Saddam and indeed by Pakistan, India, Israel and South Africa, in order to generate weapons-grade material. To be quite honest it is quite risible why some of the world’s richest oil-producing nations should want to substitute oil-fired power stations for nuclear ones anyway, Kyoto Treaty not withstanding.
Without the technological and economic advancement made possible by western world, the human civilization would not have been where it is today. They deserve full credit for this achievements. If any civilization nurtures ambition to become better than them, they must employ means other than threats of bombs and violence. Intolerance was precisely what the forefathers of western world encountered from their own breathrens when they set out on the path to modern civilization. Recall the presecution of Galileo for holding views that went against Christian theologists of his time…….And while I believe that there are lots of things of the western world that demand to be corrected, none of my friends from the West have theatened me with violence because I have criticized some of their fundamental values. Progress is possible only when thoughts are not allowed to become stagnant….are challenged and tested with other thoughts….with due respect and in proper spirit.
Muslim world appears to be caught in a time warp here…….Unfortunately, the call for reform in thinking patterns of the Muslims has arisen from external sources than internal – making things more difficult. This is inevitable given that communication potential of our times affect the lives of many more by our actions than ever in the past…..
Although I am always for tolerance, I wonder if we shoud remain tolerant of intolerance??
No, tolerating intolerance is quite illogical.
Why do I find this statement amusing? I thought your god gave you all the answers to the atom? Couldn’t you use it?
I will answer your question with another one
Have you ever thought why the whole democratic west are trembling by the Irani attempts to have their own source of nuclear energy, even if they want to generate weapons-grade material……. perhaps to defend theirselves….. whats wrong with defending your self with such weapons, lots of westren countries do, dont they ?
well…. i will allow myself to speak on the Iranians behalf, If they dont mind, and assure the worried west that Iran will not throw any ( little boy or fat boy) on civilians ( nagasaki, hiroshima ) just to demonstrate power .
this act by the way resulted in the immediate deaths of at least 120,000 individuals (mostly civilians) and about twice that number over time.
Hello verity………… this had happened 60 years ago only……..do your enlighten democratic west have anything to say for the families of these people……….. or maybe your secular GOD never told you to respect others and say sorry
Iran has recently threatened to wipe another country off the map. This casts doubt on the wisdom of letting them have nuclear weapons, to say the least.
They also burn a significant amount of gas off at the well-head — therefore they have no economic case for the development of nuclear power. This makes it pretty much certain that they want to develop nuclear power purely to generate bomb-grade nuclear material.
Or does wiping Israel off the map count as “defending themselves” through some bizarre, contorted Islamic reasoning?
sam-j, seriously, are you taking the piss? People here think you are wrong (and maybe some other things), but nobody wants to hurt you because you are disgusted by our western values
I know my friend that nobody wants to hurt me because of this…….. but believe me it’s happening some where else in this world……. take this incident for example:….
an interview on BBC…I guess….. between a western reporter and one of the coalition soldiers in Iraq…( the soldier was shooting on some area where there were a kid’s school and too many civilians around)……
Reporter : What are you doing here Sir. ?
soldier : I am here to bring peace to those Innocent Iraqis
smart-reporter (who didnt buy this one) said : how do you think we can bring peace to the Iraqis.?
brainwashed-capitalist- soldier said : eeemm, I dont know maybe we can build some McDonalds over here
have you seen this interview ?………… Oh, perhaps you are not allowed to……… perhaps these programs were only made for people in ME
But you seem to want to hurt people who disagree with you
where did you get that from ? have I threatened you or anybody else of the commenters ?……….
No my friend….. I am actually very happy with results of the boycott so far, and already received some apologies on my personal email from huge danish companies that have businessin ME.
Open your eyes my friend……… all the violence happening around us is just a Chain-of-reactions for acts that your democratic west is a major part of……. this violent acts have been going on in the ME and the Islamic world for so long, but only when it moved to your secure cities, you started to realize that there is something wrong is happening out of your shallow societies.
at least it’s not our troops that are occuping the westren cities and build prisons for torture here and there……….. it’s not our religious values that came to your countries with tanks and F16 to teach you how to treat your women or children………… it’s not any Islamic newspaper that Insulted other’s values and started the whole fuss
sorry guys, but you have to accept the fact that there is different cultures on this earth who have deeper vaules than yours, and who are more sensitive than you, and who believe that some words could be more harmful than a hundred bullets…………
we are ,however, tolerating criticism for our values from anyone…….. BUT WE DONT HAVE TO ACCEPT INSULTS
Or does wiping Israel off the map count as “defending themselves” through some bizarre, contorted Islamic reasoning?
I will not start a long discussion about Israel.
But my friend…… I would like to remind you that the state of Israel was built on another living state called Palestine, If you ever heard of it, around sixty years ago……Is this seems legal in your double-standards democracy ?………….. I will say no more about this
Oh yes you do… and the more you try to use force to prevent people saying what they want, the more people like me are provided with exactly the sort of political ammunition we need to defeat the enemies of liberty. And by that I do not just people like you… we have more than enough collectivists of our own who we can use this wonderful incident you have helped to make bigger and bigger.
Usually, I would just keep quiet and let the Islamists compound their mistake on the general principle that it is best to not interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. However I quickly realised that in this case it simply does not matter: the enemy is not only not listening to the people pointing out the huge strategic error of attacking a small Danish newspaper over an issue of free speech, they are literally incapable of listening to such advise. For most of them is just does not compute in their heads.
And if you doubt me, you have only to read though the comments here and also here to see what I mean. Just as the Palestinians have proven time and time again, at the slightest sign of political advantage these guys promptly do something breathtakingly self-defeating, moreover they are incapable of rational analysis of the dynamics of their predicament, thus the only people they refuse to blame for their misfortunes and reverses are themselves and their underlying culture and world view. If the vice of the West is to tend to be absurdly self-critical (particularly amongst the old left and paleo-right), the vice of the Islamic world seems to me to tend towards being incapable of any rational self-analysis at all. Propose an argument about free speech in Denmark and the answer is always either to quote the Koran at you or rave about Iraq or the Palestinians. And I think we can all see how effective quoting the Koran at your problems has proved.
Political Islamists are a threat right now and probably for the medium term, but it is hard to see them as a long term threat. Hell, they are so prone to own-goals it is hard to see them as a long term anything.
sam-j – I don’t know about my fellow commenters, but I find your use of the vapid term “my friend” very irritating. No one here is your friend. This is the first time any of us has encountered you.
I find your thought patterns baffling. Your ignorance of the world is so towering it’s unscaleable. It’s impossible to respond to your points because they are so divorced from reality. You cannot be unintelligent, because you can manage to express yourself fairly fluently in a second language. But if you are a reflection of your fellow Muslims, I find this ignorance horrifying. Aren’t you taught anything in school except your holy book and base ignorance of the West?
You people do not have enquiring minds, to put it at its mildest. And you are Palestinian. I have found the Jordanians to be lively, intelligent and inquisitive. So you must not be a Jordanian.
What need have the Iranians of a defense against Israel? They share no common border, they are not directly competing for any resources, they have never fought a war with each other, and if the Israelis ever attacked Iran, I’m damned if I can remember when.
Oh, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were meant to make the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands unnecessary. The West had just spent an awful lot of blood and treasure beating back a much fiercer, much worse, enemy than radical Islamism, one able to build aircraft and ships, one able to make us think seriously about being conquered in a way Jihadists can only sit around the mosque and dream about.
If we were willing to conduct atomic strikes on Japan after nearly four years of war to the knife, what do you think we will do to the Mullahs, should they strike Israel, or Europe, or the United States? One characteristic of nuclear weaponry is that it sort of short-circuits the whole “years of war” thing, and gets right to the ruin of a combatant nation.
The Iranians haven’t been doing this for very long. The West has been in this league since 1945. The Mullahs will, if they don’t watch themselves, put their whole region in a very bad position–pity about any decent people who are in the vicinity.
BUT WE DONT HAVE TO ACCEPT INSULTS
Oh yes you do…
Much better this way……… show me your real face
the enemy is not only not listening to the people pointing out the huge strategic error of attacking a small Danish newspaper over an issue of free speech,
again…… if you consider me the enemy……… it’s ok, but sorry my friend, I might be happy to listen to lectures about FREEDOM from anybody, but definitely not from your Hippocratic west.
and if that incident of ( Hiroshima, nagasaki) was not good enough for you, perhaps I should bring to your attention that the people who died in your wars-of-freedom only during the 19th century is much more than the people who died in wars since the starting of judaism…………. thanks to your advanced technology.
or rave about Iraq or the Palestinians
maybe I forgot to mention Afghanistan, Philippine, Pakistan, Iran, sudan, Indonisia, Syria, lebanon etc.etc……..
Yes my friend…..we have no other concern right now but to live freely on our lands, and not to be Insulted by the name of some blind-freedom
And I think we can all see how effective quoting the Koran at your problems has proved.
sorry but what you think is wrong…………. I dont remember quoting any Quranic verses in here, did I ?
but it is hard to see them as a long term threat. Hell, they are so prone to own-goals it is hard to see them as a long term anything.
I told you perry, you are not estimating the consequences well……….you dont seem to my as the best one here to predict the future
I don’t know about my fellow commenters, but I find your use of the vapid term “my friend” very irritating. No one here is your friend.
Oh……sorry for the inconvenience……….. I guess you are right…… according to some of your fellow commenters I am the enemy now……..
Alright, that does it. Clearly, sam-j has just tested positive for spoofing, witness his use of the word “Hippocratic”.
Mike James – obviously, I could be wrong, but I don’t think he’s a spoof or a troll. So many of them – except those educated (as in university) in the West – speak and think this way. Their frame of reference is so miniscule and they see everything through the distorting glass of their Koran. They are sincerely unable to understand thinking that has no reference at all to their holy book.
Whatever the (absurd) blaspemy laws say, it would clearly be wrong to punish someone for having a cartoon mocking Jesus Christ in a newspaper.
And Christians (of whom I am one) believe that Jesus was the incarnation of God.
Mohammed is not believed by Muslims to be the incarnation of God (the French newspaper got that bit wrong) he is believed to be a human prophet (and only a human prophet – although supposedly the last).
To complain about cartoons of him is, therefore, silly.
You cannot be unintelligent, because you can manage to express yourself fairly fluently in a second language.
good…… so maybe you’r now able to tolerate my dull terminology and my spelling mistakes……….
It’s impossible to respond to your points because they are so divorced from reality.
Or you can say………Truth hurts
I have found the Jordanians to be lively, intelligent and inquisitive. So you must not be a Jordanian.
more personal stuff……….. are you trying to find out my home address so you can send some long-distance missile !!!………………. or perhaps no need for a long-distance stuff……….. you probably have some troops around the corner.
however, If you care that much, I lived
in Jordan for more than 20 years and I hold a jordanian Passport.
Admit it people….. your enlightened democratic west is FAKE.
we are all humans, and humans make mistakes……….. so why dont you just get busy with your mistakes and let other people deal with thier mistakes
Kindly do NOT attack/insult commenters because of their English skills or simply where they come from. This will get your comments deleted by Admin.
If your religion is so correct, right, holy and strong, why do its proponents squeal like stuck pigs at the smallest amount of criticism? Can it not stand up to said criticism? Does it need protection from such criticism? If so, why?
Please excuse the allegory, but this is rather like communism — it claimed to be strong and right, but spent most of its efforts silencing dissent, whether real or perceived.
On the other hand, our “weak and shallow” democracies thrive on criticism and dissent — it is these which make us strong. It is these which permit the free flowing of ideas, and the advance of technology. We like dissenters, since they make us question our own ideas and either confirm them or cause us to change them accordingly. You, Sam, fall into the class of someone who confirms our ideas.
but you know, to be fair to you…………. there is some ecstasy about this (saying-whatever-you-want) thing………
Democracy is vastly over-rated actually… it is liberty that matters, not the political form.
Ah, something we can agree on! And as humans make mistakes, I assume therefore you do NOT support the strict Islamic position on apoctacy then? I mean, if someone becomes a Muslim and then realises it was a mistake and decides to stop being a Muslim (like you say, we are all humans and humans make mistake), then surely he must be allowed to change his mind, just as some who decided to stop being a Christian or Jew or Hindu. Right?
Excellent! So presumably you do not want Muslims to get involved in what Danish people in Denmark put in Danish newspapers, right?
Indeed there is! You see, people here have said some nasty things about your religion and culture and you have said some nasty thing about their culture and politics and guess what? The sky did not fall!
Was that really so hard now?
this act by the way resulted in the immediate deaths of at least 120,000 individuals (mostly civilians) and about twice that number over time.
Hello verity………… this had happened 60 years ago only……..do your enlighten democratic west have anything to say for the families of these people……….. or maybe your secular GOD never told you to respect others and say sorry
Well, Sam, as unpleasant as the nuclear strikes were, an invasion of Japan would probably have cost millions of lives (btw, have you ever read about Imperial Japan’s atrocities in China, Korea, and South-East Asia? You should), and thus, the nuclear strikes were, in retrospect, the least bad option.
You should remember, too, that America essentially paid to kick-start Japan’s economic miracle after the war. They didn’t become the world’s second largest economy without a big push.
If your religion is so correct, right, holy and strong, why do its proponents squeal like stuck pigs at the smallest amount of criticism? Can it not stand up to said criticism? Does it need protection from such criticism? If so, why?
what you said is totally wrong……you just dont understand what this is all about, do you?
I am NOT playing the advocate of Islam here…………..
but any devoted Muslim take the Insult of the Quran and the prophet ( PBUH) as personal………. can you believe it.
and we dont accept personal Insults from anyone……..
You should remember, too, that America essentially paid to kick-start Japan’s economic miracle after the war. They didn’t become the world’s second largest economy without a big push.
just another capitalist way of saying sorry…………..
I am NOT playing the advocate of Islam here…………..
but any devoted Muslim take the Insult of the Quran and the prophet ( PBUH) as personal………. can you believe it.
and we dont accept personal Insults from anyone……..
Why? Can’t you deal with them? And why on earth should you take it personally in the first place, unless you are so engulfed in your religion that it takes over your whole brain and you can’t separate the Koran, Muhammad, and yourself?
I guess you know very little about the British sense of humour — most of it is based on personal insults. But my mate doesn’t threaten to kill me every time I call him a goat felcher or donkey knobbler! work in the morning — we have “Mozambiqui b*stard”, a Belgian (so lots of jokes about paedophiles and basements), a Dutchman (clogs, fried food etc), an east German (sense of humour, shortages, repressions), a couple of Brits (how we screwed up the world and everything is our fault, stiff upper lips, etc), an Irishman (being drunk and digging canals). We don’t protest this, we don’t threaten to kill each other, and guess what — we laugh about it.
just another capitalist way of saying sorry…………..
… but enlightened Islam does not say sorry
just another capitalist way of saying sorry…………..
Well, Japan had killed well over ten million people in East and South-East Asia prior to that point (at least ten million in China alone, plus a couple million more elsewhere), so, no, I’m not particularly sorry that we won the war.
Since Japan was probably at about the same level as much of the Arab world at the end of WWII and is today far richer, freer, and more stable than any of your countries, do you think many Japanese would be trading places with your people? Even if they had to get there with the help of us evil white capitalists, I think we all know the answer to that question.
Excellent! So presumably you do not want Muslims to get involved in what Danish people in Denmark put in Danish newspapers, right?
Interesting, I never knew that Insulting the prophet of Islam has become a Danish Issue.
anyway, when I said get busy with your mistakes, I literally meant YOUR MISTAKES…….. not the Muslim’s mistakes……… more clear now
I assume therefore you do NOT support the strict Islamic position on apoctacy then? I mean, if someone becomes a Muslim and then realises it was a mistake and decides to stop being a Muslim
this is not a debate about Islam…….you see this is what I meant by ( get busy with your mistakes, not the muslim’s)…………..
what I believe about my Islamic issues is my business……….it’s non of your business
If Sam-J is an exemplar of the typical Muslim mindset, then there is no hope of compromise with them. Build a wall around their lands, deport all of those unwilling to assimilate, behind the wall and then ban all travel and trade to that area. They can have their paradise and we can have ours.
Well, Japan had killed well over ten million people in East and South-East Asia prior to that point (at least ten million in China alone, plus a couple million more elsewhere
did the japanese civilians did that ?……….. or maybe it’s Ok by you as a civilian to be savagely punished for something you didnt do
Since Japan was probably at about the same level as much of the Arab world at the end of WWII and is today far richer, freer, and more stable than any of your countries, do you think many Japanese would be trading places with your people
If the killing of Innocent civilians in thousands is your price for bieng richer, freer, and more stable or becoming the second largest economy………. well, thanks, not interested.
these are all materialistic things, it should not be applied on human lives.
stop treating people as investments and consumers…..
Build a wall around their lands,
I like this Idea about the wall, surprisingly, it’s becoming a fashionable way of thinking in the west…….
I guess you got this Idea from Sharon ( the man of peace, according to president Bush), or maybe from Hitler
“did the japanese civilians did that ?……….. or maybe it’s Ok by you as a civilian to be savagely punished for something you didnt do”
What does this have to do with anything? This is just a typical Edward Said or Noam Chomsky style rant. It makes me think you aren’t even a Muslim and are having a good troll. Civilians are part and parcel of any states war machine. They support and defend the war making apparatus of the state. Any fool knows this. In fact, the Palestinians(your supposed people) have said that Israeli civilians are fair game beacuse of this principle.
You are either a troll or a moron or both.
In fact, the Palestinians(your supposed people) have said that Israeli civilians are fair game beacuse of this principle.
of course it’s not fine by me for the Israeli civilians to be killed in no act of war, but this, the way i see it. is a chain-of-reactions for the occupation.
I wonder who is occuping the country of the other at the first place ?………. Any fool knows this
the palestinians are fighting back, and they are fighting on their lands, they didnt take their missiles to bomb civilians in some other country on the map………does this by any sense mean anything to you ?
When it is done by Danes in Denmark in a Danish newspaper, it is a Danish issue.
Buy you seem very keen to get involved in Danish ‘mistakes’, so I am a little confused what you mean here.
True to a point, but when Muslims try to get their values imposed on non-Muslims in the west, then it becomes the business of everyone in the west. And that is why the decision by so many Muslims to escalate this issue is such a wonderful opportunity for those of us who see a need for these issue to be forced into the spotlight on the domestic front. Thanks guys!
When it is done by Danes in Denmark in a Danish newspaper, it is a Danish issue
I actually don’t get this one……………. are you suggesting that prophet Mohammed was Danish citizen ?
I am suggesting that what people say and do in Denmark is a Danish issue. Therefore it should hardly be surprising that the Danish have chosen to follow the western tradition of freedom of expression… including expressions about historical figures from other cultures.
well will, u tell me Mr.not religious person what if somebody drew a cartoon of your father or mother( an ironic one ) and tried to make fun of them …..will you tell me how does it feel???….WELL LET ME TELL YOU MR. THAT MY PROPHET MOHAMMED (PEACE BE UPON HIM ) IS MUCH CLOSER TO MY SOUL AND HEART THAN MY MOM OR DAD OR EVEN THE WHOLE WORLD.will you tell me how did they know how he looked liked to make these drawings. They even don`t know him to talk about him…….Our prophet taught us to respect all mankind and all religions even those we don`t believe in and we will accept nothing less in return.AND THIS IS THE FREEDOM AND RESPECT SIR.So please will everyone mind his own religion and leave the others with respect…….
hope u undersatnd….a hopefull moslem and i`m proud to be
but when Muslims try to get their values imposed on non-Muslims in the west, then it becomes the business of everyone in the west
you are absolutely right, you have the right to fight any strange values that you think inappropriate for your west, but what does prophit Mohammed has to do with issue?………….. I think to be fair to this great man and to millions of other muslims around the world( who are not trying to impose their values on anybody) I think prophet Mohammed should be out of this mockery.
It might not feel good, but that does not mean someone is not permitted to do it! THAT is the issue, not how it makes someone feel.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would respect everyone. But no one is asking for your respect, just your TOLERANCE. You can stand in the centre of Copenhagen and shout out “There is no God but Allah and Mohemmed is his prophet!” and even though some people WILL find that offensive (for various reasons), they must tolerate you doing that. But is someone stands up and says “Mohammed is an ass and there is no God”, you must tolerate that too. You do not have to agree, you just have to tolerate the other person’s right to say things you may find offensive.
I certainly do not expect you to like cartoons making fun of the prophet Mohammed, anymore than I would like cartoons making fun of my family, but what I am saying is that there is a right to free expression and what you like and what I like is completely irrelevent.
including expressions about historical figures from other cultures.
did you say other cultures, or am I wrong……… I guess you did…….. so I guess it’s not a Danish issue after all.
I am getting confused here…….I think we agreed earlier on what the definition of ( mind-your own busniss) is, didnt we ?
Huh? So are you saying that large numbers of Muslims have NOT been calling for the government to use the force of law to punish the Danish newspaper?
But the whole point of what they did was to demonstrate that doing something which offended muslims was indeed protected by the right to free expression, and they succeeded spectacularly…so it pretty much had to be something aimed at Mohammed really. Nobody doubted there was a right to say things that did not offend Muslims, so…
What I am saying is that if your position is ‘we should all mind our own business’, then why are you and so many other Muslims getting involved in trying to prohibit Danes publishing cartoon in a newspaper in Denmark from doing whatever they like?
meero, I suggest that instead of starting this all over, you may want to read their previous comments and you will find the same answer repeating itself for anything you might want to say…………
some people are just so brainwashed about this ( freedom-of-Insults ) thing.
I’m not sure why this is so difficult to understand.
In Western society we have the right to criticize, insult, and ridicule just about anything we want. We attack religious figures(Christ is a frequent target) and political leaders(ask President Bush). It is as simple as that. Some may consider this to be rude behavior, but it is not illegal.
One thing to realize is that the more this freedom is attacked, the more we will want to defend it.
Then PLEASE come up with a reason that makes sence to people in the west why our hard won tradition of freedom of expression should be changed! So far all the Muslim commenters have said is “WE WILL NOT TOLERATE INSULTS!” or “IT SAYS… IN THE KORAN” or “WE WILL PUNISH YOU!”. I hope you are not all too surprised to discover that when talking to non-Muslims from economically and militarily powerful parts of the world, that approach just ain’t going to get you anywhere. And if you cannot force us, you are going to convince us, and I don’t fancy your chances in that score.
If we are willing to tolerate disrespectful insults to the Queen, the President of the USA, Jesus Christ and pretty much everything else western people hold dear, you are going to have to come up with a pretty compelling reason why you guys should be the one exception… and you have not yet even come close to doing that.
Huh? So are you saying that large numbers of Muslims have NOT been calling for the government to use the force of law to punish the Danish newspaper
millions of muslims around the world have never cared about what the Danish government did or didnt do, but this is a reaction for what the newspaper has started.
perhaps the following will be the answer for your next comment about this………. just guessing
What I am saying is that if your position is ‘we should all mind our own business’, then why are you and so many other Muslims getting involved in trying to prohibit Danes publishing cartoon in a newspaper in Denmark from doing whatever they like?
maybe because the Danish decided to test their freedom on millions of muslims that dont live in Denmark at the first place.
we are alive guys, we are not dead corpse, and we are not Danish
do what ever tests you want, and play any freedom game you like………. But please, KEEP-IT-DANISH, will you ?
If we are willing to tolerate disrespectful insults to the Queen, the President of the USA, Jesus Christ and pretty much everything else western people hold dear, you are going to have to come up with a pretty compelling reason why you guys should be the one exception
so I guess you are done testing your freedom on yourselves, and now its time to test it on others ?
Then PLEASE come up with a reason that makes sence to people in the west why our hard won tradition of freedom of expression should be changed
I am not interested in changing any of your traditions, but, PLEASE keep it within your properties…….. dont try to practice it on my holy symbol, for god sake……….is it that hard to get it !!!
and you have not yet even come close to doing that.
more of your underestimating of the consequences.
Verity, I might be wrong, and I still believe sam-j is spoofing, but I’ll have a go at this Meero–
What’s that tax that Christians and Jews must pay when subject to Islamic domination? Jizya? What’s that term you have for Jews? Pigs, or is it apes? What’s your explanation of Christ, directed at the Christians? That he wasn’t God come to earth, was some sort of Prophet Junior Grade, wasn’t really crucified, and escaped along with one of the thieves? What happened to the Buddhas in Afghanistan? What happened to that cathedral in Constantinople when the Ottomans took the city? What happens to a Muslim who decides that his current religion isn’t for him, and crosses the aisle?
If Mohammed (fhuta) taught your crowd to be respectful of other religions, how is it many of you seem to have been home sick, the day that was covered in the class?
Under ordinary circumstances, Meero, I would think the Jyllens-Posten cartoons were just another example of what religious types in the West have to put up with every day–sneering know-it-alls, who think they have it all figured out, having a little fun at the expense of someone else’s feelings, and believers being expected to like it or lump it.
Come to think of it, that’s just what happened. In Denmark. Not in any Islamic country. If you people want to make this a casus belli, it will be one in a long list which we have come to expect from Islam.
“…we will accept nothing less in return.”
What goes around, comes around, hoss. Nobody wants war, but if you want one over so silly and inconsequential an issue, y’all can be accomodated.
The very worst part about this whole thing for me is that, for the first time in my life, I’m sympathetic to that pimp, the publisher of Hustler magazine, Larry Flynt. Muslims did that for me. Thanks loads, guys.
Amen Perry !
I am shocked and outraged that Perry referred, in six or seven posts previous, to “the prophet Mohammed”.
To little sami – “maybe because the Danish decided to test their freedom on millions of muslims that dont live in Denmark at the first place.”
Look, you stupid little desert lice’s fart, they didn’t decide to “test” anything because you and your religion are too low to be within the sights of the West. The Jyllands-Posten ran the cartoons because they feared that Danish people – in a land of an absolutely free media – were censoring themselves.
Sami-j babe, IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU. I wish I knew how to spell capisce? or something like that. IT IS ALL ABOUT US. You are irrelevant. You’re little nitwits.
You’re such a little limpet. No one in Western democracies, which have supplied you with all the wonderful thing in life, bar camels, and I am sure they have their attractions, either way, cares about your desert philosophy.
Anything intelligent in your “civilisation” (I’m being courteous) came from the Hindus or the Persians. You didn’t figure out any astronomy. You didn’t figure out any numbers. You didn’t figure out zero (although it’s too bad, because it would have given you an identity).
I heard a “moderate Muslim theologian” (based in Switzerland) on B.B.C. Radio 4 a few hours ago (“The World Tonight” programme) saying it was a cultural issue – because, you see, Muslims do not draw mocking cartoons of Christians and Jews in their newspapers.
The trouble with that is that it is not true. Anti Jewish cartoons (and I mean anti Jewish – not just anti Israel) are normal in many Muslim newspapers. And as for Holy matters – are not the Gods of the non Muslim Indians mocked by Muslims?
It reminds me about the Gentleman above and his mention of Adolf Hitler (a man with a deep hatred of Western Civilization).
As far as I know Adolf Hitler did not visit his death camps (he did not want to see) – the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (the leader of those Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians”) did visit the camps.
It is often forgotten that most of the “Palestinians” had forefathers who came from who came from outside the Holy Land as recently as the 19th century (very many in the 20 th century).
Edward Said (the great self elected spokesman for the Arab cause) used to tell the story of how his family home was burned down by an angry mob (implying it was done by wicked Jews) – actually the family home in question was in Cairo.
The Jewish community in old Jerusalem was ancient (some Jews drifted back to Jerusalem long before Zionism got started), but that would not save them.
In 1948 the Holy land was split by war. For all the talk of deportations, in the area controlled by the Jews there were many Arabs left (about 1 in 5 people in Israel are Arabs to this day) – how many Jews were left in the area controlled by the Arabs?
And how many would be left between the Jordan and the sea if the Arabs ruled for a single week?
As the “West Bank” is (at its nearest point) only a few miles from the sea, the aim of Hamas to cut Israel in two (and then destroy both bits) may one day come to pass. Who knows?
The most interesting story is that of the Christian Arabs (who nearly everyone forgets), not just in Lebanon but in the Holy Land to.
They are being forced out and it is not the Jews (who they have to denouce anyway) who are doing it.
Whether the Christian Arabs are decendents of the old inhabitants of the area before the conquest (who learned to speak Arabic) or whether they are converts (or perhaps even kin of the people that the Muslim Prophet wiped out in Arabia in the 7th century) I do not know.
Perhaps they are a mixture of all of the above. But it is still sad that have to say the same “death to the Jews”, “death to America”, “death to the West” stuff – as they know in the hearts who their real enemies are (and dare not say).
I am not young. And I remember the Iranian Revolution of 1979.
They were not Arabs – what was “Palestine” (a word made up by the Emperor Hadrian I believe) to them?
Yet they still came on to the steets shouting “death to America” in their millions.
And who was President then – James Carter. Little Jimmy.
If the Muslims can call out “death to America” when Carter was President what hope is there of living in peace?
There have been many wars between Muslim and Christian (counting the number of battles would be like counting grains of sand in the desert).
There have even been wars between Muslims and Jews long before the 20th century ones (which started with the Muslim attacks on Jews in North Africa in the 19th century and with the destruction of the most of the Jewish communites in the Holy Land during the First World War) – the destruction of the Jewish communities in Arabia and the destruction of the Jews among the Berbers to name but two ancient wars.
I have the greatest respect for Islamic Civilization and for the courage in battle of Muslims.
But I do not think that we can live in peace as long as you wish to dictate what a newspaper in a Christian country hundreds of miles from any Muslim nation can and can not say.
You may have calculated that the Europeans have become so weak and decadent that they will no longer resist and will give in to any threat.
And I would not deny that most Europeans have indeed become weak and decadent . The faith of Europeans has rotted.
However, do not forgot that the forefathers of these same Europeans resisted the forces of Islam in countless battles for more than a thousand years.
By your threats it is just possible that you will wake up the Europeans and make us remember who we are.
Remember for every example of contempt a few Europeans show for Islam they show a thousand examples of their contempt for the faith of their own fathers.
Better to let Europe carry on asleep – even if some of the things a few Europeans say in their dreaming offend you.
Look, you stupid little desert lice’s fart
I would like to respond. but, sorry I dont speak French
No one in Western democracies, which have supplied you with all the wonderful thing in life, bar camels, and I am sure they have their attractions, either way, cares about your desert philosophy
I know……… perhaps what every one in Western democracies, which have supplied me with all the wonderful thing in life care about is my desert OIL………. ya, and to be fair, WOMEN”S RIGHT( perhaps they ran out of porn stars)
Anything intelligent in your “civilisation” (I’m being courteous) came from the Hindus or the Persians. You didn’t figure out any astronomy. You didn’t figure out any numbers. You didn’t figure out zero (although it’s too bad, because it would have given you an identity).
IGNORANT DENIAL………… is that you verity speaking ?
whoever, I guess someone is giving up here
I do hope that all of us have learned something here. There is no sense or virtue in trying to conduct a sensible dialogue with folk who deny you even the right to express an opinion. All these exchanges have been worthless & non-productive. We have tried to be reasonable with people to whom that is not a concept. We should also remember that appeasement is not an option when faced with an enemy bent on our destruction. It is an absolute mystery to me that our idiot Euroleaders(?) are too busy preening themselves to come together, stand up & be counted in the sure knowledge that divided we shall certainly fall. Further, an energy-rich country ruled by Islamist fanatics is hell (literally) bent on producing weapons-grade nuclear material & has stated quite clearly that they want to wipe at least one other country off the map. Oh dear, let’s threaten them with referring them to the Untied Nations Waffle Commitee or some other horror…..or, god forbid, a sanction or two. Or are we going to have to rely on those awful, oh mercy me, Americans for our salvation. If I were an American and had us for allies I would tell us to get stuffed this time.
When oh bloody when are we going to wake up?
NOT acceptable. More like that will get you banned from commenting here.
Better to let Europe carry on asleep
When oh bloody when are we going to wake up?
here you go guys, you have just created for yourselves a new controversy to talk about………… could you please worry about this at the moment and leave my prophet alone?
However, do not forgot that the forefathers of these same Europeans resisted the forces of Islam in countless battles for more than a thousand years.
I see that you guys have already upgraded this discussion to the stage of battles, well i guess I better call my ministry of defense………… or perhaps thats it, I should be out of here
But that is exactly the trap they set and millions of Muslims walked into it. I will probably not continue after this because I am just repeating myself at this point but Jyllands-Posten set out to prove that RELIGIOUS sensitivities do not over rule SECULAR rights. You may not like that but that is exactly what they proved and the more Muslims who make a fuss about that, the more powerfully the message about the primacy of secular rights is made.
As the Christians are such push-overs nowadays and are not prone to threaten folks these days based on a bunch of cartoons, it pretty much had to be you guys that they went after… and you sure didn’t disappoint them, did you.
From my perspective it is a no-lose situation. Of course most Muslims cannot see it that way, which is exactly why it is a no-lose situation for people who see things my way. The utter inability of the vocal parts of the Muslim world to see or even conceive of why ‘freedom of expression’ really does include ‘freedom to insult’, has been convincingly proven. Thus anyone who thought there is enough common ground between the secular west and Muslim opinion for a compromise to be reached which involved somewhat abridging the right to free expression in some ways have just had their legs kicked away… by you guys. The defeat of Blair’s “Hate Speech” bill in parliament, was only passed in ways that ensured the right to say nasty (but non-violent) things remains a key right in Britain… and I am not sure we could have done it without the ‘help’ of vocal Muslim commentators around the world.
My guess is once some Muslims figure out what has happened, a few might even feel ‘used’ for having fulfilled such an interesting role in what is frankly an internal debate within the western world, but hey, this is a weird and unpredictable universe we live in, don’t you agree? Strange how things work out.
Better to let Europe carry on asleep
When oh bloody when are we going to wake up?
here you go guys, you have just created for yourselves a new controversy to talk about………… could you please worry about this at the moment and leave my prophet alone?
However, do not forgot that the forefathers of these same Europeans resisted the forces of Islam in countless battles for more than a thousand years.
I see that you guys have already upgraded this discussion to the stage of battles, well i guess I better call my ministry of defense………… or perhaps thats it, I should be out of here
I don’t think anyone has mentioned it yet in this thread, but Rowan Atkinson has offered up something valuable, for the purposes of this discussion, in a speech about that Religious Hatred law which was passed in Britain just recently:
‘Every joke has a victim’
For the purposes of their education, I wish I could sit our Islamic Baldricks down and show them a video of a monologue which Mr. Atkinson once performed, which took the form of a Church of England vicar giving a sermon about Christ’s miracles which made the Son Of God out to be some stage magician doing sleight-of-hand for a crowd at a party. I never laughed so hard at him in my entire life. Only ever got to watch it once.
And didn’t Heinlein have a line in “Stranger In A Strange Land” about how the essence of humor is pain?
but Jyllands-Posten set out to prove that RELIGIOUS sensitivities do not over rule SECULAR rights.
Again, someone is testing( perhaps imposing ) his values on others
My guess is once some Muslims figure out what has happened, a few might even feel ‘used’ for having fulfilled such an interesting role in what is frankly an internal debate within the western world,
would the Danish economy also feel ‘used’ by this debate….. or maybe your secular GOD will compensate for that after this experiment.
“
”
sam-j, are you threatening us with the ruin of the Danish economy?
He’s like a guy at the bar doing his “Dr. Evil” impression.
How exactly can Muslims affect the Danish economy in any way? Given that one of their principle exports just happens to be pork products are you going to give up eating Danish sausages, or perhaps stop drinking Carlsberg or Tuborg lagers? If you want to threaten someone’s economy could you at least try and embargo something that you actually use?
How many virgins do female suicide bombers get?
Danes are ‘imposing’ their right to draw pictures that you do not like, wheras you are imposing your ‘right’ to use force to stop people drawing pictures that you disagree with.
You mean after all those “buy Danish” campaigns that are springing up? I would not be surprised if the Danish economy ends up with a net advantage. As Julian points out: are Muslims threatening to stop eating Danish pork products and stop drinking Danish beer?
I suppose, in a way they are imposing their values on others. Of course you are trying (unsuccessfully) to impose your values on us. If a western company tried to put up an ‘offensive’ advertisement somewhere in the Middle East, then Muslims may be in a position to impose their values on the company. If you consider, Danes doing stuff in Denmark, imposing on you, then that is just tough shit. I don’t envy you, you get imposed on a lot, I was insulting Mohammed on another blog not so long ago. If you are not satisfied with moaning about us, what will you be satisfied with? Because we sure as hell are not going to stop just because you want us to, as Perry has repeatedly pointed out, your only other option is force, which you don’t want to use (which is good). Doesn’t the futility of your position depress you?
People should not call for the suppression of newspapers by the threat of violence, and then pretend shocked innocence when someone else mentions the history of battles.
When and if Denmark falls to the forces of Islam you can impose your laws upon it – but not until then.
Perhaps in the future Danish (or even English) will be forgotten languages, as are (mostly) the languages spoken in the Middle East and North Africa before the Muslim conquest.
Only time will tell.
But why not live in peace?
If we have misunderstood the will of God then he will deal with us (when we die) in his own way.
Let those who draw cartoons of the prophet of the Muslims suffer the punishment of Hell (if that be God’s will), but let not men seek to act in God’s place.
As for not buying Western goods – then do not buy them. This is your choice.
Even though the people who make these goods are not the same people as the media types who produced the cartoons.
Have just read most of the foregoing and have noticed that muslim sam-j is some superhuman. He’s wittered on for the best part of three day without breaking for sleep, food and probably toilet I suspect there are a team of ’em preaching round the clock!!
One of the most interesting, and lively threads for some time; and strangely perhaps, one in which most contributors failed to address the point that Perry was making.
Perry raised a deeply interesting philosophical point, which goes to the heart of the question: what are the preconditions (if any) for understanding to take place? He noted
“a complete non-meeting of minds these comments represent and they fall into three broad categories:
· Muslims who simply cannot conceive of tolerating people disrespecting their beliefs. [ ]
· People who just loath Muslims and like the cartoons for no other reason than it upsets them
· People who understand that free speech means tolerating others saying things you do not agree with and which may upset you”
As far as can tell, most of the comments, once again, fell into precisely these categories. Sam-j developed no arguments which actually responded to any of the points made – which caused some people to think he was taking the piss; even sweetly reasoned responses to him must have appeared to him to have talked right past what he believes the “issue” was. (I can’t promise I understood much of what he was trying to say.)
It’s like trying to explain “Neutrinos have no mass” to the wolf-boy, and it’s not just because he doesn’t understand the words. Some very basic, elementary logical distinctions which the rest of us use, appear to have no purchase – they just slide off. For example, the distinction between is and ought; the distinction between not liking something and requiring it to be banned; the distinction between church (or religion) and state; the distinction between the tribe and the individual; the distinction between truth and assertability; the distinction between believing something on authority and because we have looked at the world to see how things are, and so on. The Muslim view, at least represented in this blog, appears to consist in systematically denying such distinctions. Which called forth predictably puzzled responses – claims of confusion or ignorance, or both.
What is striking about this debate is that the Muslims and non-Muslims don’t share a common framework within which discussions of what constitutes a fact and its significance can take place. I cannot now conceive of a world in which some broad empiricism is not the right way to get at the truth for example; if someone objects that logic is human foolishness, what are you going to do? Argue with them? Wittgenstein talked of common forms of life which enabled us to understand each other. It is evident that the multicultural approach contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction.
just to point out some small stuff…
our exports to the middle east comes to about 1.2% of our total exports, i would guess up towards 10% to all muslim countries in the world… so the boycot puts a dent in our total profits… hurts some companies badly (like arla and grundfoss) but overall there is not going to be much of an affect to the economy… since our aid(in all it’s guises) to the MIDDEL EAST is greater than our exports to the ditto… so just who is going to get more hurt by all this in the long run?
seriously though, why is it that muslims boycot all danes?
your koran says it’s bad to depict Mohammad… so when a newspaper in denmark does just that, you boycot all danes?
well we danes are mostly christians, one our commandments are:
You May Not Kill !
so when Muslims doing the bidding of Allah/God does just that to innocent people who are trying their best to help muslims without conserns to their own security, ON TV, WORLD WIDE TV! should we then not ENFORCE OUR VALUES ON YOU?!?!? you are trying to enforce yours on us!
should we then not blame ALL of you muslims then?
YES OR NO?
sorry for my bad english
“so when Muslims doing the bidding of Allah/God…”
should have been:
“so when Muslims doing this in the name of Allah/God…”
sam-j, are you threatening us with the ruin of the Danish economy?
I am not threartening to ruin anybody’s economy.I am not even Interested, and I dont know why Danes are considering this boycott as a threat, perhaps it’s my fault ( I should have used the word ‘Companies’ instead of ‘economy’ )
and as long as I am not in a position to fight with anybody at the time being( though some people might be), but for me the results of boycott is working just fine so far……. it’s my choice isnt it ?
my point about this boycott was simply to remind you that someone else here, beside Muslims, will feel ‘used’ with this debate, and I dont think they will be happy about losing all these billions of Dollars. or maybe you are suggesting that they were informed about this debate in advance. I dont think so.
If these companies( mainly the huge Dairy companies which, according to their sources, have more Muslim consumers than Danes) were consulted about this experiment of freedom, I am sure they would have said NO to this, because simply they understand the consequences better than some of you ( and I dont mean the Danish prime minister anymore cause he has already condemned and apologized for this Insult for the third time today)
And yes you can stop your aids to the Muslim countries I dont care, we already have enough corruption here preventing us to benefit from those aids, but I think your government is more clever than this, they have learned a lesson, and I think they will not take this situation to it’s official levels.
I seriously dont care how far this boycott will go, or how will it affect the Danish economy, we’ll just wait and see……….. it’s just a matter of dignity after all, if any of you have ever heard of this definition.
He’s wittered on for the best part of three day without breaking for sleep, food and probably toilet I suspect there are a team of ’em preaching round the clock!!
Astonishing how serious can someone on this earth be about his issues, isnt it ?
if someone objects that logic is human foolishness, what are you going to do? Argue with them
it’s actually good to know that some people, beside muslims, have there own holy things that they think are untouchable and indubitable such as human logic, democracy, freedom-of-insults etc…etc
I guess Muslims and non-muslims do share a common framework after all.
It is evident that the multicultural approach contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction.
this could be true only when this multicultural approach has transformed into a single-cultural approach that is intended to be applied on multicultures
I guess some people just cant understand the depth of some other cultures
Freedom of speech in press in an important issue as long as it doesnt cross the red line.The point is that people or those reporters in the danish press who have insulted islam,should reallyconsider others feelings.It really hurts when u see poeple accusing u of things u did not do,insult u, humiliate u, and make fun of the way u feel and think.
Islam is a religion of peace, but the problems we are facing is due to a bunch of criminals who talk in the name of all moslims in the world , where in reality, only 1%of the moslims world wide supprot them.
So please, do consider the other 99% …..
Gina, yes it is rather sad that to make an important point, large numbers of Muslims were insulted.
But the right to say things other may find insulting is exactly what this is all about.
If so many Muslims had not made it clear in the past that they were unwilling to tolerate free speech that they find insulting, even in the west and even from non-Muslims, I doubt those Danish cartoonists would have felt the need to do what they did to prove they have a right to say and draw whatever they want.
Just remember that this did not happen in a vacuum.
And these companies saying “NO” would have meant what, exactly, to the publisher of a completely separate entity, the Jyllands-Posten?
The situation has already been taken to official levels, by disloyal Danish imams running to their co-religionists, with teary eyes and snot running from their nose.
it’s actually good to know that some people, beside muslims, have there own holy things that they think are untouchable and indubitable such as human logic, democracy, freedom-of-insults etc…etc
Proof again that the words just slide past without connecting. It was a kind of joke. To argue with someone involves invoking some kind of logic – it does not consist of (with apologies to Monty Python) a knee jerk gainsaying of whatever the other person asserts. A self referential joke is perhaps another step too far. And I don’t have the faintest idea what “human logic” is supposed to be.
A concerned dane to all muslims:
Sorry – for giving muslims shelter and help
Sorry – for giving muslims an education
Sorry – for helping muslims financial
Sorry – that muslims can practise your religion freely in our contry
Sorry – for sending aid to muslim countrys
Sorry – That we don’t demand blood vengeance for the killing of our fellow countryman, commitet by muslims
Sorry – for not carrying around explosives on our bodies, when we feel voilatet
Sorry – for not doing as your religion say
But sorry for expressing ourself in our own country, according to our countrys laws – that you will never get.
This will probably be my last post about these cartoons, but I’ve been doing some thinking about this fuss and I would like to share it with people in this blog.
Honestly, I don’t hate the people in the west, and I admire all the wonderful things and technology they offered to this world, and I give them all the credit for that (definitely I don’t give Verity any of this credit. because with the way she thinks, I cant Imagine she has Invented anything or she will ever do) whoever, my problem with the western way of thinking will always be their abuse for all the good things in life. As they abused their technology with weapons of mass destruction, for instance, again they are abusing their freedom-of-speech and turning it to freedom-of-insults. (Muslim extremism is just another way for abusing the holy values of the Qura’n).
I don’t think that all these achievements and smart technologies give you people the right to tell others how they should live their life or treat their women, or what to accept or not accept. However, seventy or eighty years ago most of these technologies weren’t present; do you think people were suffering? I don’t think so. People can live without technology, but they can’t live without values. In fact I believe life was more romantic that time. This freedom of Insults also will not make this world a better place.
I will not admire any unjust Insults in mass media. And I don’t like to see people going to work naked. I just can’t see how this abuse of freedom will do any good for the liberty on this earth, or for anything else in this modern world, I can only see that this will lead us to live in absolute chaos.
The Admin of this site found some of Verity’s Insults for someone because of his English skills or his background NOT acceptable, and they threatened to take action in several occasions during the discussion, though they may like what Verity said, but they used their wisdom, probably because they know where this Insults will lead the discussion. Another example from the west is the outrage by the Indonesian prime minister speech about Israel, three or four years ago, which people in the west found offensive. He didn’t threaten to blow Israel, still he was accused with being anti-Semitism and forced to resign. More examples are the Irani president speech also about moving Israel out of ME. It was such a speech, but the whole west took it seriously, and they threatened to take action. Israel also threatened to bomb Iran in different occasions. Though I may agree with some of what the Irani president said, but still that was not wise of him to say so.
So, I believe this fairytale about the absolute freedom-of-speech is not pretty much applicable on everything, even in the west.
I don’t think Insulting Prophet Mohammed will help the Danes to go to Mars or help them to build hotels on the moon. Why they had to take such an extreme measure by insulting all those Muslims? Sure there are so many intelligent people in the west and they have so many gifts, so why not using them in a constructive way rather than destructive? What you guys are asking for is not tolerance, it’s an ULTIMATE tolerance. This could be possible in a perfect world but definitely not in this one.
The only way I can see the secularism attempts to Insult a religious figure, who lived 14 hundred years ago, is as a challenge from a new invisible GOD to impose his values on others, which will do no good for anyone.
However, I think that FAITH is the thin line that making it hard to compromise between the west and any other religion.
My. This has been a fairly vigorous debate. A few late notes.
1) Western societies usually distinguish between legal freedom and moral freedom. The legal right to do something doesn’t mean that you have the moral right to do so.
2) The papers in Denmark certainly had a legal right to publish their cartoons.
3) The moral right to do so is something else again. Democratic societies function better when they show respect for all members of society.
4) It’s not clear at present that many Muslims understand this basic principle of human freedom: today we get word that the embassies of Denmark and Norway have been burned in Syria. Surely this is far worse than anything done by any Danish newspaper.
5) The call by Muslims for a boycott of Danish products is disappointing: Why do many Muslims not understand that in a free society the government is not responsible for what is published in the newspapers? If Bush and Blair could censor the press, the nightly news in both countries would look very different.
6) The apparent assumption of some on this board that rationality and secularism are (effectively) interchangeable is puzzling: Western philosophy from Aristotle through Kant basically agreed that right reason and the existence of God were fundamentally inseparable.
7) It was the Islamic philosophers who first recognized the greatness of Aristotle, and dramatically changed the philosophical and intellectually history of the West. I don’t see the point in trying to minimize the intellectual and cultural glory of Islam in its early centuries.
8) The UN report on the freedom deficit in the Islamic world is still the central issue. The recent uproar over the cartoons shows what Aristotle might have regarded as the poorly trained passions of many: if Muslims were as furious at the dictatorships of Syria and Iran as they are at the cartoons of Denmark, the Islamic world would have a bright future. Why are Muslims taking to the streets to protest Denmark instead of protesting the oppression of Syria, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc? When will the people of the greater Middle East show the same passion for freedom and democracy as the people of Lebanon showed last spring?
9) In one of the debates of the early Reformation, recorders were going to be banned for fear it might chill the heat of debate. The recorders were kept on the grounds: “Truth fairs better at a lower temperature.”
10) The passion for reason is the glory of Samizdata, and part of what makes it such a delightful antidote to the prevalent postmodern blather. I commend to Sam-J, Bryan Magee’s Popper, a classic defense of rationality and democracy. I commend to both Sam-J and his critics RE Rubinstein’s Aristotle’s Children, a first-rate discussion on Aristotle in the middle ages with much to teach everyone today.
Cordially,
Indeed, but a boycott is most certain an acceptable and quite appropriate thing to do if you want to register how pissed off you are… vastly preferable to demands to curtail free speech in Denmark.
Certainly true and it was from Aquinas that I was first introduced to logic. In truth I do not think it is self-evidently impossible to derive the existance of God from reason and logic, I have merely concluded via reason and logic that I am left with the critical preference for the negative theory and consequent notion that God, at least in the conventional Judeo-Christian/Islamic sence, is a psychological artifice. Although I am not inclined to get too deeply into this right here, in truth it rather depends what you mean by ‘God’ 🙂
Perry:
You guys run a great blog! This is the first time I’ve ever posted a comment, but it’s nice to drop in! It was when I was studying in England that I first started reading Karl Popper–any site with Karl Popper and an automatic as its logo is clearly pretty cool. 🙂
5) If the critics of the Danish newspaper limited themselves to a boycott, I wouldn’t be so troubled by their response. I’m curious that the only place (so far?) where an embassy has been burned is in Syria, and I wonder if this has been provoked by the Syrian government to redirect popular anger away from the Syrian dictatorship.
6) Your point that it all depends on what one means by God is very well taken. St Thomas himself was very careful about this, and it is not an accident that his tag line at the end of the five ways is not: this IS God, but rather…this is what everyone CALLS God. St Thomas, following Aristotle, sees God as the uncaused cause of the universe; and I think it’s significant that this was generally seen as a persuasive proof until Kant (drawing on Hume) begins deconstructing the whole notion of causality. I think Kant’s line of analysis is ultimately a dead-end, but as with you, I’m reluctant to press the issue here. 🙂
What I would like to see is Islam rediscover its medieval philosophical heritage. I think if it does so, it would be an enormous help toward entering the 21st century without sacrificing it’s internal integrity. Burning embassies in the name of Islam is not going to win many converts to the mantle of the Prophet.
Burning embassies in the name of Islam is not going to win many converts to the mantle of the Prophet.
I just cant stop coming back, but its realy funny how everybody is convinced that Islam is trying to win any converts at this stage, or muslims are protesting for their right to preach the Danes about Islam. I guess this could be the result of your insecure secular minds that always feel threatened with more rooted ideologies.
However, I heard this song once saying ( too much love will kill you), but I actually never heard any song saying ( too much kill will love you). how actually can anyone think this way-:)…….. though it may happen some time ( USA 11/9 ). it’s really weird how unpredictable life can be. I guess you may have a point there after all.
At present, the Islamic world is in position of self- defense, and all the violence happening is just a chain of reactions. ( Reaction is an exception, it can never be the rule). therefore, the Islamic world is full of problems, wars and instability, and the Danish newspaper have decided that this is the perfect time to test their freedom of speech on muslims. how wise this fellow Danes can be indeed !!!
sam-j – if the islamic world is full of problems, how about muslims start fixing them themselves? with billions in aid, the palestinians, for example, could have had a fully functional society & economy. but no. they want to push the israelis into the sea. they want to indulge in puerile flag burning, embassy torching & the never ending firing of guns into the air. the indonesians have a resource rich country, capable of great growth, and what do the muslim extremists do instead of getting on with the job? they burn churches & kill schoolgirls. danish muslims want to kill cartoonists. if they don’t like free speech, why live in a country that defends it? why not piss off to saudi or iran or somewhere else where sharia rules?
mohammed – piss be upon him
KK…… As most of your comment reflects a totall misunderstanding for the situation in the Islamic world, it will be useless to answer your queries…….Unfortunately your knowledge about Islam and the Islamic world, as most of the commenters in this blog, is not more than what you see at your daily nwes bulletin.
mohammed – piss be upon him
You truly know how to make your self heard…….. Do you think more of this rubbish can get your fellow Danes out of this critical situation? how naive are you!!! I wish you can grow up one day and learn how to deal with reality, it’s much more harsh than your flowery kindergarten idea about life.
Sam-J, I’ve watched you here equate a simple insult with a “right” to commit violence. This shows me that you don’t understand Western society, you will never understand it, and you will never be happy in it. You should go home to the Muslim world. That’s the world you understand, as harsh as it is, because there you can live your life as a slave to God and your religion, never having to make an honest decision for yourself, never questioning, never thinking an independent thought. In the West we decide how we will live our own lives, but your life has been decided for you by some old bearded men reading out of a 1400 year old book. Some very good Muslims don’t accept this, but you obviously have.
Incidentally, I’ve decided that Muslims must be idolators at heart, because you all seem to worship Mohammed and the Koran equally with God. Why else be so violent about any perceived “offense”?
You should go home to the Muslim world
Thanks for the advice RebeccaH, but I am already home, and living, perfectly, in the Muslim world. In fact I am trying to convince my family whose living in the west to come back home. what need do they have for a place where they are not respected!!!
you can live your life as a slave to God
Finally some true understanding for Islam…… I am perfectly PROUD of this part. and perhaps this is the core of my religion, (of course with a non-human, noble understanding for the definition ‘slave’ )………. however, I hope that doesn’t bother anyone.
In the West we decide how we will live our own lives
indeed RebeccaH, and this is my definition for ‘Denial’…. this is perhaps because you think of yourselves as some sort of human GODs( just because you have Intellectuality and the ability to decide). This is Precisely the problem of ‘Allah’ with all man kind, and why he (His Almighty) kept on sending all those prophets to us.
because you all seem to worship Mohammed and the Koran equally with God
Worship NO…… Admire YES………… I guess your understanding for Islam is not good enough aftre all…….. nice try though.
In fact I am trying to convince my family whose living in the west to come back home. what need do they have for a place where they are not respected!!!
If this is so, then what need do Muslim nations have to riot and burn and destroy over some cartoons in a Danish newspaper?
I am perfectly PROUD of this part. and perhaps this is the core of my religion, (of course with a non-human, noble understanding for the definition ‘slave’ )
Yes, I know Muslims call themselves “slaves of God”. But you think of yourselves as literal slaves, and this is why you don’t understand life in the West. You are slaves to your God. Our God does not require slaves.
this is perhaps because you think of yourselves as some sort of human GODs( just because you have Intellectuality and the ability to decide).
Yes, we do have “intellectuality” (it’s “intellect” by the way) and the ability to decide. This is called free will, and Western believers say that it was given to us by God. A person who chooses for himself to live a good life has done so of his own free will, and is therefore precious to God. Not because he is a slave who must obey, which is worthless.
Worship NO…… Admire YES…………
Then you have a different understanding of the words “worship” and “admire”. People died because of a false story about someone getting urine on a Koran. With all the burning and destruction and rioting and calling for death, it’s only a matter of time before someone dies over these cartoons of Mohammed. They are but a man and a book, and yet someone will die because of a perceived insult to them. All due to Muslim “admiration”.
Do you not see now why Islam is taking so many hits? Until September 11, 2001, Muslims in the West were generally treated with respect by the societies they lived in (barring those few bigots who will be found anywhere). Since then, Muslims have done damn little to show they merit respect by free nations.
I’m off my soapbox now. I’m sure none of this will penetrate Mr. J’s cemented mind-set. But it’s instructive to note that he calls himself a “moderate”. Ta.
If this is so, then what need do Muslim nations have to riot and burn and destroy over some cartoons in a Danish newspaper?
I am honestly ashamed of this silly acts. every other muslim I know is also disgusted with this, especially attaking a church and some civil properties in lebanon today. I realy hope that no one get hurt over this issue. However, the difference here is that I can easily tell why things have taken this turn. and this is what I was asking for all those logical people in the west, to see this situation from a different angle, and not to come to the most critical and disturbed issues, and simply add flame to the fire.
This is called free will, and Western believers say that it was given to us by God
It’s really hard to get you to understand such a high-level Faith issues, with few sentences( maybe because you let your brain loose for such Issues), however you will be surprised with the amount of free will I have as a Muslim. and how I use will to live a good life(I am living a good life in fact, thanks GOD). I only want to tell you that I am not allowed to abuse my free will and decide how I should treat my GOD. every one is a slave of God, oneway or another, and this is only the smallest part of this relationship, and Allah doesn’t need anyone’s slavery anyway. All what he( His Almighty) want is not to be treated as a human, or have his words ridiculed or his messengers slaughtered or mocked in some newspaper.
Thanks for your time anyhow and God bless.
There is no racism breeding hatred. We are all human. There is only difference in belief breeding hatred since time immemorial. The simple fact is the minority in any culture have long learned to humble themselves for self preservation. It may not always be right , but it’s not new.
I do know however one thing. That is, that some people, who may be named as Muslim but not labelled any particular race, display not the principle of unconditional love central to my belief, but rather an open hatred, toward even their neighbouring muslims.
It doesn’t take a religous scholar to understand that to hate and act on that hatred is to judge. Something we should leave to God. And that hatred is a wicked, ignorant principle.
I am calling on the Muslim world to change their label and show me a random act of love rather than stepping on each others heads at Mecca to throw stones at the devil.
If Jesus was in the cartoon I am sure that a lot of Christians would be very, very unhappy. Freedom of speech does not go as far as shouting “fire” on a crowded train. Have some respect.
If Jesus was in the cartoon I am sure that a lot of Christians would be very, very unhappy. Freedom of speech does not go as far as shouting “fire” on a crowded train. Have some respect.
So what? No one is asking Muslims to be happy abouit this (though this(Link) is an interesting angle I had not though of before). You do not have to like something you tolerate. This has been asked and answered already at great length.
But that is not what happned. You cannot shout “fire” because the direct result of people believing such a falsehood (and note, it must be an objective, factual, falsehood because you CAN shout fire on a crowded train if there really is a fire) is that people may be killed by a panicing crowd as a direct (not indirect) consequence.
No. You have no right to demand respect from me, you can only earn that. However you do have a right to demand tolerance. I do not need to respect you to tolerate you.
Father-son team oinks way to victory in French cult competition.
And what have this to do with these cartoons, i can hear you ask.
Just take a look a this link: (Link) .
This is one of the pictures that the danish muslim delegation had with them on the trip to the ME. And witch have never been printed in Jyllands-Posten.
It was posted on the MSNBC website in Aug. 15, 2005. (Link) .
I think that the danish muslim Abu Laban has been taken with his nickers down 🙂
There is a believe in all religions that the Judgment Day will not come until there isn’t any single virtue left on this earth, at that time people will commit adultery in public streets where everyone else is watching. The 19th century was pretty much of an example for this, as Al Pacino said in Devil’s Advocate ” This whooole century was mine”.
The Devil by the way is very intellect. He knows how to choose his fellows, and he won’t stop until he destroys every single Virtue on this planet.
Just thought it’s good to share this with you.
Ive just read the whole Blog and I found it to be thought provoking and interesting. Hopefully I can voice my opinion without messing up too much, I dont have the debating skills you guys do. 😛
Now to deal with Sam-j. Your continued inability to comprehend the Freedom of Speech is just plain laughable. You are living in the middle ages with your “If Im insulted then I must hurt you physically” idiocy. How primative. If someone calling you a name makes you so angry that you must resort to violence that belongs in the middle ages or a kindergarten, then I reccomend an Anger Management course for you.
You say that the “West” doesnt have the “right” to impose “their” values on you? That may be true (philosophically)…but “their” values happen to be the ones considered best for the future of humanity at this time. The UN agreed on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948, (Link), and it covers ALL of humanity, not just us “secular” westerners. A society not based upon freedom and equality wont last long in a modern world. You might want to keep up or get left behind in your juvenile medieval fantasy land of virgins for all and rivers of wine.
Im just going to touch on things in the Koran here, since Arabic laws are based largely, if not fully, upon what is in this book. I believe this has to do with inheritence.
[4.11] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females..”
Now that seems unfair to me. A man gets double what a woman gets just because he’s a man? And just a question on polygamy. How is it that a man can marry more than one woman and he is “right” and “just” etc but a woman is only allowed one husband?
[24.60] And (as for) women advanced in years who do not hope for a marriage, it is no sin for them if they put off their clothes without displaying their ornaments…
Now this one made me laugh. Im wondering what “ornaments” refers to. So its not about modesty but if they are “attractive and “young” enough to still bear children I guess. If they are OLD then its ok for them to show some skin since noone would be attracted to them. Why not lock them in a tower like a fairytale princess or valued goods…oh wait…thats what a Harem is for. Silly me. Why not brand them like cattle?
The (Link) here just goes on to show how “right” and “true” the Koran is, since Allah told Mohammed personally and Mohammed had to recite it all perfectly, there shouldnt be any inconsistancies. I recommend it for anyone that wants to shut the “Koran Thumpers” up.
Um thanks for your time guys and I hope I havent wasted too much of it. 😛
I have already stopped reading this blog. I think I’ve said it all about my opinion with your idea of freedom of speech. However, it’s by chance that I came across this comment, and I think I owe you, Nedivh, a response because you have exerted some effort and addressed me personally in your comment.
Unfortunately, the only true thing you’ve said in your comment is that I don’t have the debating skills . This is absolutely true. However, I can totally understand your position on freedom of speech, but I just don’t like it, and I don’t have to accept it. When it comes to my personal life and my religion, I don’t have to play by your rules.
Moreover, I don’t think that you really want to use the UN as a reference for your deeds. This same organization has issued hundreds of decisions to condemn the Israeli occupation and the demolition of the Palestinians lands in west bank and Gaza, and most recently they stated that the Israeli Apartheid Wall is illegitimate, but who’s listening? No body. More specifically, the secretary general of the UN has expressed his unhappiness today for this impudent attack on others’ religions and believes, and asked all members of the UN to gather and come up with an international constitution to stop further attacks on religions. Do you think anyone will pay attention to him? I don’t think so.
The last thing I wanted is to urge you guys not to bather starting all those debates about Islam. I’ve said this before Nedivh. Your knowledge about Islam, as most commenters on this board, is not more than what you see at the news bulletin, and it’s all wrong, or at least misunderstood. Prophet Mohammed spent 23 years preaching people about having a good faith in Allah and how to treat GOD with respect. Other teachings were just the easiest part to after faith is well established. Faith is what matters here, not anything else, and faith is something you guys in the west don’t have, or at least most of you.
Finally, as most of your comment, what you said about the OLD women in Islam is totally wrong. They are not allowed to show any skin at any age or any cases, the only thing they are allowed to show when they get very old is the Hair. And in fact, most of them don’t do that. Devoted Muslim women prefer to keep their modesty than to look like some ugly spinsters at an old age. And even when they die, only other women are allowed to wash them for the last time. They will live and die in modesty.
Sorry to say this Nedivh, but your comment was truly a waste of time, and I think those drawings were not very harmful after all. They managed to tell all Muslims around the world what a hundred thousands of Innocent killings in Iraq, and thousands of demolished homes in Palestine couldn’t tell.
Well I would have to say you all talk very well, Some seem more in tune than others. Do you remember thoses little niger baby candys they used to sell at the corner stores back in the 50’s. I just love those things. It wasn’t black american baby candys, they were called niger babys.
I remember standing at the counter and a black american boy and his mother were standing next to me and as I made my choice for those niger babys. The other boy wanted some too. His mother was furious with the boy and the teller. Gee what was the fuss all about anyway I thought to myself.
So I was being taught,,, What?. Being an Infidel but beleaving that there is a God of some kind out there. beleaving that all men and women are created as equals. I’m a fly in the ointment to about 3 billion people. Maybe 4 my math hasn’t been that good lately.
But Art, I know. “Art is Art” we begin by drawing lines and symbols so others could see and understand what we see and felt way back in the stone age. Some proabable got pissed off then. This should be a notice to all Moslems and all other religions fractions Yes some of us think you are nuts but I know there’s a lot more good in you than we think or know. “Why won’t you show the world that”? If were such Ibfidels.
I’ve been watching the World News, History all my life and I’ll tell you if I was God I would of turned around and looked for a better world to work with a long time ago. If I was an alien watching this planet from another world I would turn off the set and say to my wife lets never visit that place.
i have to write an effing essay on this for art class
My first response will be to this…
Now this is blatently untrue and its pretty much self-explanatory why its untrue Sam-j.
I never asked you to accept the position on Free Speech but you seem to have an outmoded concept of it. I might not have the right to tell you and yours how to live your life, but that goes both ways (and this is regarding the Danish Cartoons).
And in regards to the UN comments, all you have told me is that the UN is pretty much politically powerless, which people have known for a long long time, ever since the League of Nations. I dont think that Human Rights are subjective and you can take what you want from the Declaration as you choose.
My knowledge of Islam may not be up to Imam standards but I know enough about it to make my own opinion. I cant prove that to you because Ive got the Net at my disposal, and anything I wanted to know or prove, I could find easily. Lets just say that since my foster mother was a devout Muslim, and from Syria just so you dont tell me that its some “Westerner” following a fad, I know whats what regarding the Islamic faith.
Now it is my time to tell you that you are believing what you see on the news bulletin.
, is a generalisation if Ive ever heard one. We in the “West”, that arent of the Islamic faith, may not pray to God five times a day and face the relevant direction, or “prove” our faith by killing people of the “dhimmi” religions, or issueing “fatwahs” whenever someone says something that offends us, but we are just as, if not more pious as Muslims.
Though modesty is a vitue, it seems in the ME that its just for women, and this comes across to the “West” as very sexist and medieval. Please explain to me why this woman (Link) was hung for fending off three potential rapists, and dont tell me that its the “Western” media trying to demonise Arabs.
Lastly, I dont think it was a waste of time. It let me have my opinion, under Freedom of Speech, and helped me to better understand how you in the ME think. As to the “Innocent killings”, need I bring up 9/11 in the US?
Sorry to all for once again writing an “essay” 😛
Hey all again,
Not to get too far off topic but I was reading the Blog again and looking over what Sam-j has said, some of which involves the Islamic God. Is the Islamic faith based on Paganism? You be the judge… (Link)
Now I did some research and it seems that when the Arab tribes were each still worshipping their own (360) pagan gods in the Kaaba in Mecca, the Moon God was considered to be the “High God” of each tribe. Now this “High God” was called “Al-ilah” and eventually the word “Allah” was derived from that. Very interesting indeed I think…
This time I came back intentionally to read your response, Nedivh, it wasn’t by accident. If it makes you feel better?
Once again, there is obviously no common ground between us to discuss all the religious believes. Not because you don’t have the knowledge (obviously you can make a 5 minuets search on the net and come back with a response, well done). However, I think it’s rather hard to bring up all the critical issues from two extended deferent, cultures and discuss it in a shape of comments.
But, it’s actually interesting how you came across 9/11 as an excuse for the ‘Innocent Killing’….. It makes me think of how is it that everyone in the west claimed that it’s unfair to boycott a whole country because what a newspaper (which is a single entity) did? While those same people approved on the killing of all the Innocent Afghani people, and changing the country’s political parties because of a CIA-made theory of the “Osama Bin-Laden did it”
And later on they faked a link between Bin-Laden and Saddam, just as a backup plan for the Iraqi war, in case the theory of “weapons of mass destruction” failed. And it, apparently, did.
I wonder how many more Arabs and Muslims have to die for what the CIA is labeling as “Made by Bin-Laden Co.”. But I think in free countries like yours( where people are intelligent and can not be easily brainwashed ) governments do need such an extreme measures to go to war.
And please, spare me all those atheist links from the internet; I know there are thousands of them out there. They are simply ignorant and not convincing, it’s actually funny how the author asks all the questions, and gives answers right away. Isn’t questioning suppose to be a chance to reconsider ones believe in something?
I will agree with the first one as to there being no common ground…or at least no common ground that we can both see. About me having access to the knowledge part, the whole “5 minutes” thing, Ive read the Koran and Ive looked at articles etc on it…and it took way longer than 5 minutes.
As to the whole CIA thing…blagh. Its not woth my time to go into that as 1) Im not American, and 2) There will always be “Conspiracies” etc
Now for your last comment. I find it increasingly funny that any time someone’s religion or “holy book” is questioned, the defendant of that religion claims its always by an “athiest” or a “servant of evil” etc. I believe in God and I question every “holy book” and religion that comes my way. The link I went to opens a lot of interesting questions about Islam and its origins, but as you are blinded by your faith, theres no point showing it to you.
As Ive said before Sam-j, continue to live in your fantasy medieval world. The longer you stay there, the futher ahead we in the “West” get.