I was tired of being poor.
-Paul Rutherford, a sales associate at Fry’s Electronics in Burbank, California, when I asked what prompted him to emigrate from the UK to the US
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Samizdata quote of the dayMarch 10th, 2005 |
 49 comments to Samizdata quote of the day |
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So why is he living in one of the most freakin’ expensive blue states??????????????
He must be approaching the liberty concept gradually.
Well, even hanging out in Beverly Hills the last few days, things are generally a hell of a lot cheaper than equivalent things are in London.
And Hollywood liberals and Orange County creationists both actually have more ingrained allegiance to liberty than the average Brit, even though neither may believe it of the other.
A non-Hollywood-liberal studio lawyer once told me, in all seriousness, “We have socialism in California, we just don’t call it that.” It took me a long time to recover my breath.
More to the point, Rutherford was probably tired of living somewhere where not being poor (sorry – “socially excluded”) was virtually a crime.
A non-Hollywood-liberal studio lawyer once told me, in all seriousness, “We have socialism in California, we just don’t call it that.” It took me a long time to recover my breath.
Actually, Perry and I were discussing this exact subject with lefty blogger Brian Linse tonight. They can’t really use the s-word in the US the way people can in the UK, so they come up with other terms – like “Progressive” (yes, capital P). But make no mistake, it’s socialism all the same.
So to escape ‘being poor’, this guy took a job as a shop assistant?
Let us all praise wonderful America, where people can get Jobs in Shops. If only our benighted island featured such things…
Perhaps American shops have some kind of career ladder? Or maybe the pay goes further? Or could it be just a step on the road to being less poor?
I would imagine all shopassistants would earn
more in the US than the UK.
The situation is not the same for everyone. Many businessman would earn less by moving to the US.
I know some commentators here have a rose-tinted view of the US but it is not (quoting perry) a paragon of libertarianism. Eg. US tax authorities are very aggressive/big brotherish towards US citizens living outside the US.
I’ve live & worked in both the US & the UK & I found my money goes a lot further in the UK, although some consumer goods are cheaper in America. I remember California as being an expensive place to live.
But make no mistake, it’s socialism all the same.
Wannabe socialism, I suggest. They like the idea enough to call what they do do “socialism” in private, but mostly have’t got a clue about the real sacrifices in autonomy.
California is leaning over the edge and squealing in delight at the “danger” and its own bravery, safe in the knowledge that it has a nice strong safety-rail stopping it taking the plunge.
The real socialists, on the other hand, have learned to stop talking about it, put on a dark suit, and pal-up with big business to get what they want.
I know some commentators here have a rose-tinted view of the US but it is not (quoting perry) a paragon of libertarianism.
Quite. Just because somewhere really isn’t socialist and isn’t in any danger of being even to the extent of, say, the UK in 1990 just before the fall of Thatcher (our most recent low-water-mark), doesn’t mean it’s a libertarian paradise. I take the US (even California) to be the home conservative capitalism and punitive puritan paternalism. A lot of what gets taken for socialism, I submit, is the latter in modish form.
The US has a lot of good points. But a lot of bad ones too. It isn’t an automatic choice for those fleeing IngSoc, even where it is available.
Funnily some one just asked me about this at work. FYI in 2004, retail wages in the US were about 70% of the US average wage but just 58% of the average in the UK. So relatively speaking the guy was right – a shop assistant moves up the social ladder by moving from the UK to the US.
Britain – no longer a nation of shop keepers!
The really big difference between the US and the UK, is one of attitude and general outlook.
The ‘general’ feel in the US is one of optimism and opportunity, and a refreshing belief in self reliance. While in the UK pessimism and a general whingy, clock-watching approach to life, would seem to be the order of the day.
I know I am generalising here, but the US is such a vast country that it would be impossible to speak for all areas, – I am just ‘speaking as I have found’, having lived here for the past fifteen years.
There is much more feel of community here, – not as in the UK Council run definition, but in the more neighbourly context of looking out for each other. People here, from all walks of life, do like to get involved, and not just in a ‘nosey’ way, they really get a kick out of ‘helping out’. It is quite noticable that people will donate their time, as well as cash, to this end. No just a fiver in the tin, to assuage your guilt here…
Yes, I am quite aware that things are different in the ‘big’ cities, but most people here do not live in ‘big’ cities.
It is so typical of the British that they know ‘the price of everything, and the value of nothing’.
Mention ‘quality of life’, a sense of worth, or any of the more esoteric things that make for a happy and worthwhile life, and most Brits will reply with a sarcastic, or cynical remark, (practically guaranteed to have some reference to beer quality), rather than admit that – yes things could be, (or indeed, were), so much better.
To really appreciate the differences between any two countries, you have to have lived in both, not just a holiday, or extended business trip, I mean, really live in both.
Then, of course, there is the matter of ‘national pride’, so taboo in Europe and the UK, but so very strong in the US, – no, – the likes of Michael Moore, Madonna, et al, are the exceptions that prove the rule, they really are a very small minority, although, listening to the Beeb you would think that they spoke for a majority of Americans.
The curse of socialism has made Britain a drab and drear shadow of what might have been, and yes, the same forces are at work here in the US, (starting, as in Britain, in the halls of academia), but as yet have only been minimally destructive. Hopefully the Americans have the will to resist the rot…
Ernest Young nails the key difference smack on the head. The spirit of optimism, a “can-do” attitude to life, is the key difference. It makes me mad at the amount of sneering and cynicsm there is here in Blighty.
Damn straight the guy is better off as a shop assistant in California than he was in the UK. And I think subsequent posts about the difference in attitude are highlighted all too well by a Brit sneering here in the comments about such a lowly role.
That said, I’m alarmed that anyone thinks this post is tantamount to calling America a libertarian paradise. The only place on earth that qualifies for that is Sealand.
As far as value for money goes, I’ve lived in Britain (the Midlands, the Home Counties, and London) for about 8 years now and there simply is no comparison: I shell out much more in every expense related to living when I’m in the UK. There’s a reason why I bought all of my Christmas presents in Beverly Hills instead of London in 2004. And don’t even get me started on rent, proper medical care, food, transport…
Jackie: just out of interest, what’s your logic in not following Circuit City man in leaving our grim, sneering, sarcastic, expensive, socialist hellhole?
(I actually agree with Ernest, perhaps for the first time ever, on the US/UK differences. Certainly, I couldn’t bear to live in a country where people in general were sickeningly patriotic and ‘can-do’-ish).
I don’t begrudge the gent his wealth. Britain is well rid of people who desert their native land on such flimsy grounds.
They may not have socialism in California, but the state’s finances point that way. So does its RINO Govenator, who schmoozes with liberal big spenders and hasn’t a clue how to stop Sacramento going bust under the burden of illegal immigration.
Jackie: just out of interest, what’s your logic in not following Circuit City man in leaving our grim, sneering, sarcastic, expensive, socialist hellhole?
Wow, I never knew you felt that way about Britain, John. But in response to your question, well, I’m in the US for the second time in four months on business, this time for a month…You do the math.
Just interested in what constitutes “sickeningly patriotic”. I sure haven’t seen any of it here, whatever it may b
At the risk of appearing a sneering cynic, can anyone enlighten me as to whether the american ‘can-do’ approach is fostered by a reality whereby it is possible to achieve one’s aims? Similarly, is the British pessimism a reflection of the constraints in british commercial life?
For instance, in my aspirations to be a lavatory attendant in the uk, i assume i will need to apply for various licences and obtain ever more expensive third party insurance cover, such cover dependant on my obtaining various qualifications and meeting certain medical criteria. I also anticipate memorising a lot of health and safety legislation which will apply to me. Would I need little more than my own brush if I were to transfer my career across the atlantic?
Just to inject some more data – average retail weekly wage in US $372 (BEA) vs 264 pounds (UKNS) in UK.
So you’re better off in the US when the exchange rate (real) is below 1.4 and better off in the UK when its aboe.
Ernest is dead on. Britain just feels small and weak and limited. Hunting is the only thing that’s better there than in the U. S.
To me, the saddest thing about being in Britain is the old buildings and the new ones. A century ago, they built to last FOREVER, the faith in the future screamed out from the bricks and stones. Permanent, designed to be attractive to the eye.
Now it’s all trash with a 25 year collapse date.
I’d way rather be a shop assistant in California than in Britain! What better reason to leave is there?
Britain may be “well rid” of Mr. Rutherford- he and those like him are welcome.
Staghounds, hunting is better in Britain? ….What!?!
john b,
At what point does patriotism become ‘sickening?. To have pride in what has been achieved by our predecessors, is surely not sickening, are you decrying your heritage? if so, I fear that you are a lost soul.
I can understand your aversion to jingoism, but that is a different thing altogether, being merely a version of ‘blowing your own trumpet’, and in the most loudmouthed way, and largely indulged in by politicians and others whose contribution to society has been somewhat less than stellar.
To deny your heritage and those that made the sacrifices necessary to achieve and preserve the freedom that you now enjoy is nothing less than despicable.
Does your aversion to the ‘can-do’ attitude reflect your lack of ambition, or is it just a jealous reaction to the knowledge that you really can’t do?
King of the Loonies,
I don’t begrudge the gent his wealth.
Oh yes you do….that you regard a sales assistant’s wages as wealth, says it all…
Britain is well rid of people who desert their native land on such flimsy grounds.
Nice little touch of pompous jingoism there….
Do you have such little self-respect that you regard your personal wellbeing as being a ‘flimsy excuse’ for actually getting off your behind and doing something positive to improve your lot. Just what would it take to stir your lazy hide? perhaps the promise of twentyone virgins….
zmollusc,
As usual, your comments are well worthy of the dizzying heights to which you aspire….:-)
Not sure about the visa though, – you might need a least a BSc. from a UK uni for such a specialist postion.
Folks, Fry’s is not exactly a “shop”. The average Fry’s store probably has a quarter square kilometer of floor space. I generally call it “Toys’R’Us for technogeeks” but that description may not travel, either.
Giles, your factoid about weekly wage discounts the effective tax (i.e. confiscation) rate. Better would be to compare take-home pay, and even though it’s California I think our tax rate is a lot lower than in the UK.
Taxes are important, Stephen, but I think you’ll find that differences in purchasing power are the most significant adjustment – as folk have said most things are more expesive in the UK – using a dollar for popund conversion is not entirely unreasonable.
That said – anyone got any ideas why retail assistants are releative to the average so much worse paid in the UK (58% of average) than the US (70%)?
Not sure how a shop assistant would get to legally emigrate. When I came, the immigration process was onerous and I was coming on a spousal visa (I have a degree but got the impression that that alone wouldn’t have been enough to get me in). Maybe he was from Eastenders or something. They always seem to be able to emigrate on a moments’ notice.
FWIW, we came for the weather. Three summers of perpetually grey skies was enough for me.
Rich
Giles,
Surely it is obvious, when did you last see a shop assistant over the age of twenty-five in the UK?
The ridiculous Employment Protection laws make it impossible to viably hire anyone for long enough to train them to any discernible level above that of a chimpanzee, and the managers are only marginally better. Things such as meaningful product knowledge, basic customer relations and service, are rare indeed. And as for a smile, I don’t think so! At 58% of the average wage, most are overpaid.
It would seem that yet another basic difference between the two nations, is that the Brit dislikes his fellow man, and regards any contact with strangers as so much inconvenience, not so in the US, where contact with ‘new’ people is seen as a a pleasant thing. Could it possibly be that the Brits are shy?
But then, the US retail industry has a very different approach to that of the UK. ‘The customer is always right – even when he is wrong’, – believe me it pays in the long term.
Marks and Spencer’s used to have a no quibble return policy, and it served them very well over the years.
Meanwhile, – “Have a nice day”
I too have lived much of my life in both places and I could not DISagree with you more. Not only are wages generally higher in the US, things are cheaper (particularly food). I have always found I get more ‘bang for the buck’ in the USA.
I agree with Ernest when it comes to the relative optimism of the two countries, but I don’t see evidence for his contrast in attitudes to ‘quality of life’ etc. If I ask someone about quality of life here, without using the keywords that prompt them to talk about their spiritual journey through life, I’ll typically be told about the size of their house/car/pool. A similar thing in the UK would focus on the (cheaper) 2-week vacation in the summer, or if they’re doing moderately well the (cheaper) 1-week vacation in the spring or autumn, or depending on their choices the (cheaper) nights out at the pub with their friends.
I don’t pretend for a moment that the UK is ‘better’ than the US, just that both countries have different priorities, and sometimes they’re so different that one can easily seem inferior to the other (in either direction).
‘The customer is always right – even when he is wrong’, – believe me it pays in the long term
Does it? I think that Japan has the best customer service in the world and look where it got them. I cant see why its in a country’s interests to “encourage” consumption of retail goods as opposed to say – holidays.
things are cheaper (particularly food).
Things are undobtably much cheaper but one interesting thing that I’ve noticed is that I think the food in the UK is at the mo better than the US (although obviously twice the price!)
Giles
Who is talking about a ‘country’s’ best interest here, we are talking about customer service at a local level.
A business is in business to make money – ergo more happy customers, more cash flow, more p*****s, (just in case anyone is offended by that dirty word). It is what makes the world go around….
As my Grandad used to say, (or was it Groucho?), “If business is good, more business is better.”
Paul,
Quality of life is not about pools, houses or vacations.
It has more to do with congestion, or lack thereof, easy car parking, where a smiling face is more than likely the norm, where general politeness is commonplace and a where there is a lack of fear in everyday life, no unecessary parking meters nor the officious little shits who delight in writing tickets, those sort of things, I don’t have to spell them all out for you do I?
As I said earlier, “It is so typical of the British that they know ‘the price of everything, and the value of nothing”.
Apolgies for generalising…
Paul, are you saying that a 2 week holiday every year is cheaper than having a spiffier car? I would contend that a 2 week hol can easily top £2000 which works out as £160 a month. How spiffier a vehicle could one get for an additional £160 a month? (in my case it would be equivalent to an additional car every 2 months. Sadly the road tax and insurance on an additional car would be £450+, so a 2 week holiday is roughly equivalent to 2 and a bit additional cars per year)
Speaking of parking meters, when will they have generated sufficient income to provide large, free car parks fo the public, as was the original excuse for their introduction ?
Although I get all my information from the telly ( I recently upgraded from my trusty old 405 line set to a snazzy 625 line gizmo. How snazzy? Walnut effect plastic trim, no less!) I am heartened to see that americans are allowed to put old vehicles on blocks in their gardens without having to fill in government forms to absolve them from road tax.
Budgeting £2K for a two-week holiday is a bit much. I’m currently planning a one-week holiday for eight people (in a very high-spec rented house in Portugal), which will cost a *total* of £1K for accommodation and about £100 each for EasyJet flights. That would work out as well under £400 a person for 2 weeks, without descending to horrible chavvy package holidayage.
(also, Mr Rutherford presumably has an American wife/parent – as various people have pointed out, getting a US visa is a challenge even with an MA, never mind without a degree at all).
john b,
And the greenfees, and the food, and the booze, and the car hire……
Perry: The rule of thumb is that for day-to-day expenses, what costs a pound in UK costs a dollar in parts of the USA fancied by expats (e.g. FL, CA), although the recent weakness of the greenback may have altered the equation somewhat.
Ernest: I live just above the official poverty line in dear old Blighty, and I’d never want to live anywhere else. Freedom is doing without. East, west, home’s best. God bless you.
King of the Loonies,
Well bully for you!, Freedom is all about making your own decisions, and taking the responsibility for same.
I’m pleased for you…
Ernest,
You’re showing the bias of your viewpoint again. You say that quality of life is about easy parking, smiling service, and dozens of other things. I don’t claim for a moment that you’re wrong. But for British people (with apologies for generalizing) quality of life is about hanging out with your friends, or getting away from work (a job which will often involve fewer hours per week than in the US, and less pressure to do extra hours too), or any of dozens of *other* things. Judged by your standards (easy parking, smiling assistants) the UK loses out; judged by British standards the US loses out. Neither is wrong, and comparisons are fun but not particularly meaningful.
Incidentally, as I said before what I hear from Americans when discussing quality of life is cars and houses and gadgets, not the delightful twirl of snowflakes from my office window at the moment.
Zmollusc – no, I was suggesting that holidays in the UK are cheaper than holidays in the US. It’s certainly possible to spend 2 grand on a holiday from the UK, but GBP500 or so would be more typical. You can do the same in the US, but you’ll only get a week rather than two (depending on where you live and where you’re going). Cars, on the other hand, are clearly cheaper here, as is gas, though servicing seems to be higher.
Living in TN, I have to say that on balance, with swings and roundabouts, things work out about the same. I miss my nights out at the pub (there are bars but they are not equivalent) and being surrounded by history but on the other hand, there is ample free parking and I can afford a house with a decent number of rooms (indeed, the first place we lived here was a three bedroom trailer bought on the /equity/ built up over three years on the one bedroom shoebox we had in Basingstoke).
My major grumble with the states is that vacation is typically two weeks a year as opposed to the more common four weeks in the U.K. I’d gladly trade my salary down for the extra time off.
Rich
Paul,
Of course, on topics such as this, we all speak as we find – I did acknowledge as much in an earlier post.
We are in perfect agreement over the value of friends and companionship, that was our biggest stumbling block when deciding to make a move here, although I was more concerned with missing family, rather than aquaintances…
Like any major move of residence, even to the other end of the country, it is the differences between the ‘old and the new’, that I found stimulating. And long may that be the case – how utterly boring if everywhere were the same….
Probably being of a different generation to yourself, I likely place different emphasis on certain personal values, e.g. I do not feel very comfortable just ‘hanging out’, and consider – rightly or wrongly, – that done to excess, it is a waste of time. To actually be doing something in the company of others, is a different matter.
For most of my life, I have been fortunate enough to actually enjoy the working day, – indeed, I have always felt that to be gainfully employed, (and not just for financial gain), is one of the pillars of a happy, balanced and worthwhile life. Mind you, I have never had to stand on a production line, or work backbreaking hours in a freezing field, I may well feel differently if that had been the case.
Life is just too short to waste….especially reading my boring stuff….
One thing has been completely overlooked in this discussion, and that is the long term. What are the opportunities for advancement at Fry’s, compared with those available to a shop assistant in the UK? What are his chances of developing interesting skills during his off hours, meeting the right people thru work, and winding up in a ground floor opportunity, compared with those available to a shop assistant in the UK?
Of course Ernest, and I hope I didn’t seem combative. I’ve been impressed by many of the things you mention here as well, And after all, I chose to live here rather than in the UK too!
Well, I work 3 days a week after asking the boss to be a part timer, and get holiday whenever I want (though I dont get paid for it needless to say).
…Somehow I doubt I’d get this in the US. So I’m staying here! 😀
Ernest – business also need to look at costs.
In the UK shop assistant is considered an unskilled position which someone should only do as a temporary profession – hence the 50% wages.
By contrast, in say Japan and France it is considered a profession and hence wages are higher. But so are prices.
The reality is that, I think, when it comes to paying, the British dont really value “good service” in shops much. The US seems to be somewhere between Eurp and the UK – like service but price is also important (although the cheapness of property helps them somewhat)
Richard: Hate to be the one to tell you, but the norm in lazy old UK nowadays is *six* weeks’ paid holidays a year, plus a number of one-day public holidays. And some Euros get longer, though no doubt they’ll ruin themselves taking it easy. (In Germany most shops close between Saturday lunchtime and Monday morning.)
Of course besides the relative cheapness of everyday buys and the friendliness of staff, the space of the USA is intoxicating to anyone who lives in these crowded isles, and is the main reason for the much lower cost of real estate– land’s cheaper.
OTOH, America has a number of problems which don’t bother Britain, such as wilder weather, seismic faults and air pollution, plus the possible time bomb of GM foods being freely consumed.
It has the first working class in history which is fatter than its masters. That ought to be a cause for self-congratulation, but boy will it have drawbacks in a country which doesn’t spend the healthcare share of GDP efficiently enough. And rampant unfitness makes it harder to fill the ranks of the Army and National Guard for all those super foreign campaigns.
There aren’t many porkers in slimline socialist Sweden, but they never fight wars, so what the hell.
Britain or America? My two cents/pence
I have lived in both. I find that the question of whether one is better off in London or Los Angeles very much centres around how one gets around. When I spent time in LA, I needed a car, while in London I can do without one. Once one buys a reasonable car, gas, insurance, tax, parking, etc., it can easily add up to $500-800/month extra. If one needs to air-condition one’s house, that’s another huge bill which one doesn’t face in London. But most other things are cheaper in the States. There’s no simple answer to this question.
There is of course more to life than money. Britain has longer paid holidays, but California has better weather. There is the question of the people one meets, as well, that can make or break a place for anyone. Politically, Britain is the country of the nanny/socialist state to a greater extent than America, but America is the country of affirmative action and a trial lawyer’s paradise. I love both countries, and Australia and Canada as well, and whether I would rather live there or here completely depends on my mood. But I don’t think I could ever be happy anywhere else for more than a few months.
I can’t share the sentiments of other posters against this retailer. In the 19th century, it was very rightly regarded as a patriotic act to leave this country to spread English law and English values on new continents. If this gentleman can’t make it in England, why shouldn’t he try his luck in America? I must say I’d be intrigued to find out how he got his green card, though.
The norm for the UK is six weeks holiday plus public holidays? Since when? And for whom?
For whom?
Our beloved ‘Civil Servants’ and our equally beloved ‘Fellow Travellers’ in those highly unioinised sectors of our society. Musn’t forget all those ‘sick days’, or the M(P)aternity leave either, – thats for whom….
And the one that really bugs me, – that police officers can have several years sabbatical, for what? – to improve their tiny pc minds, – I think not, it is yet another excuse for them to do as little as possible on their way to a retirement at approximately fifty years old.
No wonder Dear Gordon is floating the idea of a forty percent residential property capital gains tax….he must be getting quite desperate to fill that black hole…anyone know if Prescott is unloading his property portfolio yet?
I dunno… it says something that a sales job at Fry’s in California represents a step UP for someone.
Apart from the weather, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to live in southern California. Ugh.
In terms of the cost of living, SoCal is closer to Britain than almost anywhere else in the U.S.
However, down here in Jesusland, life is considerably more affordable.