There is a fine article by Tory MEP Daniel Hannan in the Telegraph called The EU’s four-stage strategy to reduce Britons to servitude. It is an entirely accurate and reasonable article about the process of stripping British (and other European national) institutions of power and replacing them with Euro-level institutions.
He finished up with the notion that Michael Howard and the Tories will finally turn things around:
Mr Howard understands this very well. Not only is he a lawyer himself but, as home secretary, he clashed almost weekly with our judges – not least on immigration cases. He must have known that the EU would react as it did to his proposals: indeed, I suspect he was banking on it. He has said before that he wants to take powers back from Brussels but, until now, the issue on which he was planning to go into battle – the recovery of our fishing grounds – seemed rather marginal to most inland voters. Now he has found a casus belli where the country will be behind him.
It has been a besetting British vice that we ignore what is happening on the Continent until almost too late. But, when we finally rouse ourselves, our resolve can be an awesome thing. I sense that this may be such a moment.
But there is just one problem with that. The slide into the Euro-maw did not start under Tony Blair’s government. In fact it would be no exaggeration to say that the UKIP would not exist today if significant numbers of Euro-sceptic voters were not sick of being lied to again and again and again by Tory politicians. As I said to a table full of captive Tory grandees when I spoke at an event commemorating the end of Exchange Controls, a great many Tory voters simply no longer believe that the Conservative Party actually wish to conserve the things they care about and I very much doubt that any amount of rhetoric by any Tory will win back the trust of days gone by. Many of those former Tories who joined UKIP did so not just to oppose the destruction of Britain as a separate political entity but also because they truly hate their former party and see UKIP as a way to destroy it by making it permanently unelectable.
So what Mr. Hannan says is all good stuff, but what makes him think people should trust the party of Michael Heseltine, Ken Clark and Chris Patten to actually turn things around?
A neat and accurate summation of the problem. Until and unless the Conservatives are willing to purge the party of those who are Conservative in name only, then they will remain just another party of liars and traitors.
Of course, this leaves the UK in danger of having a near-permanent Nu Labour, Gramscian government. And quite what we do about that is anyone’s guess.
I remember the last Conservative government well, and indeed it did sell out to the E.U. whenever it could.
There was a lot of verbal opposition to the policy of government led by Mr Major and some Conservative M.P.s did vote against the policy in the House of Commons.
However, when Mr Major made his “back me or sack me” move only one member of the Cabinet (John Redwood) actually stood against John Major – the other Cabinet members (including Mr Howard) supported Mr Major.
It must also be remembered that Mr Redwood did not propose getting out of the E.U. – he just supported limiting the powers of this layer of government. But this limitation was too much for the great majority of Conservative M.P.s.
Have Mr Howard and his supporters changed? Well, perhaps unlike you, I am willing to give them benefit of the doubt (Mr Blair must be opposed and U.K.I.P. is simply too small a party to really oppose him). However, I would certainly not say that I trust Mr Howard.
I don’t think you have to worry too much about the Conservatives over Europe any more. I may disagree with them – but the overwhelming majority of the party is against “Europe” in just about all of its forms. Heseltine and Patten and Clarke are no longer major influences on the party and will not have any lasting impact on policy. It is just that the party is taking time to come to terms with perception.
The other difficulty, of course, is that the key news outlets in the country are all largely pro-Europe to some extent. Naked attacks on the EU which may be popular in the country as a whole do not play well with the press, who are crucial in forming opinions that the Conservatives are actually a principled party and a Government-in-waiting. Now, Howard is doing his best to destroy that perception anyway. But attacking the EU outright would be an electoral nightmare for the Tories – it highlights splits and makes them seem far-right and isolationist.
Ken writes:
“But attacking the EU outright would be an electoral nightmare for the Tories – it highlights splits and makes them seem far-right and isolationist.”
Isn’t that a contradiction of what you said earlier – that the Tories are now (more or less) united in opposition to the EU? How can open opposition ‘highlight splits’ if there are none?
That aside, your general point about the media is true. The perception that the Conservatives are “far right” and isolationist is entirely in the mind of hacks at the BBC, The Beano (I’m sorry, I think I meant to type ‘The Independent’) et al, but it is a persuasive and insidious Big Lie which the Tories are going to have to find a way around, if they are ever to win another general election.
Not that I believe pandering to the buggers is the answer, you understand…
My doubt about the Conservative Party (of which I have been a member for 25 years), is not that most of the ordinary people in it are no good (actually most part members would like to see a smaller government, and indeed would like to get rid of the E.U. layer of government totally) – my doubt concerns the Conservative M.P.s
Most Conservative members of the House of Commons voted for “Ken” Clarke at the last real leadership election.
There are a lot of leftist (or “could not give a ….. as long as I am elected”) Conservative M.P.s.
I will vote Conservative (and in Kettering we have a good candidate), but trust the Conservative M.P.s? Well I will wait and see.
So what Mr. Hannan says is all good stuff, but what makes him think people should trust the party of Michael Heseltine, Ken Clark and Chris Patten to actually turn things around?
The fact that Hestline and Clark are no longer in it and Pattern can hardly be described as a tory any more. And that tory MP’s who support integration are now defecting to labor.
If all that doesnt convince you that the Tories believe they have learnt from their mistakes then I don’t know what will.
The difference between UKIP and the Conservatives is that the Conservatives will try to negotiate first while UKIP are big bangers – i.e. withdraw at once. So both parties have similar beliefs, just different ideas about how to approach them.
As an aside isn’t an essential part of the ideas underlying Libertarianism that it allows people to learn from their mistakes; why shouldn’t this apply to the Tories?
Of course the Tories (at least under the current leadership) cannot be trusted on the EU. When Howard made his statement committing the next Tory government to restrict immigrants and asylum seekers he knew full well that no British government has the power to do that anymore. In case anyone didn’t notice Tony Blair has broken yet another promise and signed away Britain’s right to limit the number of asylum seekers. I’m giving Howard the benefit of the doubt in stating that he knew this. If he did it is yet another example of the spineless Tories having no stomach to confront one of British history’s great shits and liars. If he didn’t know he must have been a poor QC and is simply not on the case.
The only way now for Britain to retake control of her borders is the leave the EU. For the Tories to come to their senses and state the case for leaving the EU would be no electoral nightmare at all. They are and still would be seen as right wing in the BBC and Guardian newsrooms but the socialists aren’t and never will be supporters. For years they have tried to steer some kind of mythical ‘middle way’ on the EU question where none exists. The has always been stark; join one nation (one volk, one reich!) under one government called Europe or leave the EU. More and more people are realising the nature of the beast and the Tories STILL cannot bring themselves to represent their natural constituency. Ever since Major led the party they have been rightly despised for their cowardice. Howard’s ploy was cheap and he is still despised.
Sorry, I must have been feeling a little queer in posting that statement above. What I meant of course is that the choice is simply between being subsumed wholly into the country of Europe or leaving it.
Not easy to contain one’s anger is it?…
This is yet another ‘election promise’, to be broken to suit the ‘Leaders’ expediency, or if the opposition’s criticism gets a bit too hot for his delicate sensibilities.
It does seem that his sole purpose in life is to ‘be liked’ by all, – and just what is so wrong in being thought of as ‘right wing’.
ernest young wonders:
“..just what is so wrong in being thought of as ‘right wing’. ”
Well, indeed. Sadly the term has been carefully and consistently manipulated, distorted and smeared by the Left until it has become synonymous with ‘Nazi’ for just about every sub-literate halfwit in the Land. One or two of whom even infest the comments section here, sad to say.
“Isn’t that a contradiction of what you said earlier – that the Tories are now (more or less) united in opposition to the EU? How can open opposition ‘highlight splits’ if there are none?”
It wasn’t the best way of putting it, let’s just say that 🙂 What I meant was that the high-profile old figures like Patten and Heseltine will probably love to have a quick dig at the Tory policy over Europe and reinforce the incorrect impression that Europe is a dividing force in the party.
The media continues to perpetuate this myth. When Robert Jackson crossed the floor, they said he was from the pro-European wing of the party. Well, I heard him speak and had a conversation with him after the talk, and he sure as hell wasn’t in favour of Europe.
I’ll get stepped on, and deserve it, for commenting from this side of the pond on English internal politics. It strikes me that after 3 centuries (give or take, depending on how one counts) of a global Empire, it is a little late to speak of isolationism. At least with one’s toungue someplace besides one’s cheek.
“Here richly, with ridiculous display,
The Politician’s corpse was laid away.
While all of his acquaintance sneered and slanged
I wept: for I had longed to see him hanged.”
-Hilaire Belloc’s “Epitaph on the Politician”
Once you get past the labels, all politicians are the same.
Well, if Robert Jackson’s not in favour of Europe, he’s an even greater fool or traitor than I had him down for because that means he admires Tony Blair for himself. So he is completely, raving mad.
The Chairman of a Tory selection committee wrote an interesting letter to The Times three or four days ago: In view of Jackson and other white elephants occupying their seats as of divine right, he thought that the current occupier should have to be selected all over again at each election. Had this been the case with Jackson, during the interview, it may have become apparent that he was likely to speak out against Mr Howard, and also that he has, somewhat late in the day, become infatuated with the toxic Tony.
This would have ensured that that particular piece of dead wood was lopped off and someone keen to be a Tory MP were selected instead.
Tory Party= Dead Man Walking
The real pain will start amongst our political classes when Brussels starts removing a layer of a UK level of government.
Oh,they maight let them earn their thirty pieces of silver for a few years but will at some point abolish national governments just to make the point that the EU is our ruler and demands our loyalty.
History is replete with regimes that have demanded total loyalty,this one will also demand that we love them.
Whether this will be before or after the coup in Brussels I do not know.
Peter – Hmmmm … a coup in Brussels … I think not. That is where they nest. The coup will be in the outlying regions, especially “across the water” (but not too far across too much water, because then you reach Ireland) and Holland and Denmark. We are all three made of the same independent spirit and we all have much older democracies than the pumped up twerps who want to be our masters.
I think we should just go. As they sell more to us than we do to them, they will have no choice but not to get nasty. And if they do – well, who has armed forces and who doesn’t? Handy for getting the Spaniards out of our fishing waters and defending British Gibraltar.
BTW, Michael Howard ought to promise to reinstate some of our ancient regiments that Toxic Tony, in the cause of destroying our history and cutting us off from our rightful heritage, is dismantling.
Stehpinkeln,
Lovely verse, especially for a Liberal….
He makes most of todays pundits look very third -rate…
Verity,
“They” will have as little choice in the matter as Czar Nicholas or the Mandarins in China,they have instituted a highly centralised regime with no checks and balances.
Europe has form in this area,its what they do and have been doing for thousands of years.If the powers of national governments can be hollowed out so can the power of Brussels,all it would take is an an act similar to the enabling act of 1933.
Of course the Tories (at least under the current leadership) cannot be trusted on the EU. When Howard made his statement committing the next Tory government to restrict immigrants and asylum seekers he knew full well that no British government has the power to do that anymore.
Sure they knew that but most of the public didn’t. Now they do. Political objective acheived.
And actually it is a consistent position; we are entitled to restrict immigration and then stand back and see how the EU will enforce their will on Britain. If the courts support the EU, vote to change the constitution so they cant. At the end of the day,the only leverage the EU has is to kick Britain out. But they wont, because I suspect that a few of the other members would abhor such action and probably join the UK in leaving.
So the Tory plan is actually quite smart; educate thepublic and defy the EU to put up or reform its self back into a Free Trade Club. Win win.
Actually the existance of the EU (assuming it is actually created here in the near future) depends on unrestricted immigration. The Quickest way for the Brussel Bureaucrats (BB’s) to gain complete control is to swamp the natives with people that have absolutly no connection with the past. Once there are enough ‘citizens’ in France who think Martel should have lost, Roland was a war criminal and Joan of Arc should have been stoned, then what matters French Pride? When 90% of the English have no Idea who Wellington was, or what a Spitfire did, then the BB’s will have won. There is an old Arabic saying about Camels, noses and tents that might be appropriate.
Here are a few Arabic phrases that might also come in handy;
Feen el Haweya (where is your ID Card)
Waqef Houn (Stand over here)
Uskut (Be Quiet/shut up)
Funny that the BB’s don’t think that they themselves will be facing the bullet or the blade when their new “citizens” have no further use for them? Are they suicidal or what?
Giles
If Howard’s intention was to bring about a realisation in the British people that the EU now controls her borders it was an extremely long winded way of doing so. In fact I have yet to see any Tory speak out against this outrage. If Howard was aware of Blair signing this right to the EU then that very day he should have taken a leaf out of Alistair Campbell’s book. I’m not calling attention here to an OT matter but you may recall that when Jon Snow on Channel 4 news broadcast what in Campbell’s view was a pack of lies over the Gilligan business he went to the studio, barged in and demanded to be put on air. He got his time in front of Snow! Howard’s response should have been no different. This is why I despise the Tory Party. Blair’s government has committed outrage after outrage which demand a self-respecting opposition hit back and defend this country. It’s not a matter of the Tories defending themselves, they have failed abysmally to defend this country. Day after day the Tories have been utterly invisible. They have no stomach for the fight, no heart and no spine.
Stehpinklen
That’s Gramscian theory is already being put into practice in Britain. For years this government has been putting out the lie that immigration is essential for the economy. The economy doesn’t come into it. Blair believes that most immigrants vote labour. Hence, our open borders and the inevitable mass, uncontrolled immigration is simply an attempt to gerrymander Labour into permanent power.
Giles
I’ve just heard Howard admit on the radio that he did not know Blair had signed away control of our borders to the EU. What the hell are they doing to justify an MP’s salary?! A cornerstone of a sovereign nation has been signed away and the leader of the opposition was unaware.
Dan Hannan is one of the few bright lights in the Tory Party. Alas, he is very much a lone voice both in Brussels and the Tory Party as a whole. If they had any brains, he would be a very good choice as leader, much better than some of the people putting themselves forward.
Nothing will. How many times does a person have to be lied to and promised things only to see the absolute opposite happen when they get in office to realise that anyone who votes Tory is a credulous mug. The Tories must be destroyed forever because only then will people stop clinging to the delusion that a party which which promises to INCREASE tax funded spending by 0.3% LESS than Labour is NOT a genuine opposition party in any meaningful sense.
em>“..just what is so wrong in being thought of as ‘right wing’. ”
This is a favourite trick of the BBC. Thus when they are discussing the Islamofascist mullahs who currently oppress the people of Iran, they are described as “right wing”. Why? Do these mullahs support limited constitutional government, low taxes, privatisation of state industries? I doubt it. But they do execute girls for the crime of being raped, so they must be right wing. I doubt the BBC wallahs even notice they’re doing it.
Regarding the UK looking isolationist by abandoning the EU:
The slur that we are being isolationist only survives because nobody argues against it. It is in fact the EU which is isolationist: it trades mostly with itself, it sets barriers to trade to non-EU countries, it creates tariffs that wreck the businesses of developing world farmers and it seeks to create a Europe-only club where membership and (so-called) benefits are available only for the few.
The UK, on the other hand, is a global player whose trade is mostly non-EU, who interacts in business and politics on a worldwide basis and who believes in freedom in enterprise – something that is of benefit to all but especially to developing countries wishing to get a piece of the action.
We are an outward looking country with an expansive world-view, a belief in freedom to associate and trade with any of the world’s producers; we are, in fact, fighting against a bureaucratic, inward-looking, controlling group of unaccountable pen-pushers and federalists.
The sooner we push – hard – the simple fact that we are for openess, inclusion, freedom and the rights of man to choose – and dismiss – his rulers the sooner we can stop cowering before this mindless slur that we are isolationists.
Start now!
Two Sixes – Excellent post! This is what I have been saying for years.
I’ve just heard Howard admit on the radio that he did not know Blair had signed away control of our borders to the EU.
So the origional post was bollocks then? Or does it not really matter.
The simple matter is that the tories are trying to get into power and so tehy dont have the luxury of being able to hold entirely principled positions. I think its fairly clear where Howard stands, I think its farily close to where you stand. But I see him doing something to put it inot proactice while I just read here about alot of “highly principled” bitching.
Some one critiscied the Tories for not putting up a fight. Campbell bargin in on Channel 4 was given as an example – er hello that the Governments second broadcasting network. Can you imagine the likely PR outcome if the Tories had tried the same stunt?
The bottom line why Labor is in power but the right is in disarray is all too apparent on this board. On wants power the other is into small minded militant tendnacy point of principle.
Giles
Your post refers to statements by me. First, the original post was not bollocks, simply Hanna’s comments in the Telegraph. Michael Howard was interviewed in the studio on TalkSport. That’s the interview in which he stated that he did not know Blair had signed over control of Britain’s borders to the EU. If you don’t believe me ask TalkSport for a transcript. Read Hannan’s statement again:
‘Must and suspect; Hannan is not certain himself of Howard’s position.
You state:
Hence why they are despised. They haven’t had a principled position on anything in years. Some politicians and parties can be disliked but respected. The Tories aren’t even respected by natural Tories. True, natural Tories have been leaving the party for 15 years and hate what the parliamentary party has done to it. Principal is what these people are crying out for.
I want Parliament to repeal the European Community Act 1972, thereby withdrawing Britain from the EU. Howard’s position is a million miles from this.
Er hello, winning over liberals is not something the Tory Party will ever achieve. By winning back their own, natural, anti-EU constituency they will be in a far stronger position to win power in Westminster. Look at the the polls! UKIP has been building a base from nothing on the back of natural Tories. This nation is instinctively against the EU. You have an open goal. Kick the damned ball! The ‘right’ is not in disarray nationwide, only the right’s spineless, weak, insipid political representatives. Look again at your response to Campbell demanding airtime frm Channel 4:
So what?! Tory supporters don’t give a damn what Channel 4 liberals think of them. They just want the party to fight back.
Give the ‘right’ a reason, just one reason, to vote Tory and they will. The people of Britain are increasingly aware that the choice does not include to option to ‘take back some powers’ from Brussels. The choice lies between complete subjugation as the North West Province of the country of Europe or complete independence from the country of Europe. There-is-no-other-choice. Both Labour and the LibDems want subjugation. The Tories have no future unless they commit to taking us out. Please, fight back or clear the way for others to take your place. As far as I’m concerned UKIP isn’t attracting Tory votes, it’s the other way round now.
Indeed. He stands for a highly taxed, highly regulated Britain (his spending policies are hardly any different that Labour’s) in which everyone has to have an ID card.
Labour Party Manifesto 1997(Link)
Every country must have firm control over immigration and Britain is no exception. All applications, however, should be dealt with speedily and fairly. There are, rightly, criteria for those who want to enter this country to join husband or wife. We will ensure that these are properly enforced. We will, however, reform the system in current use to remove the arbitrary and unfair results that can follow from the existing ‘primary purpose’ rule. There will be a streamlined system of appeals for visitors denied a visa.
The system for dealing with asylum seekers is expensive and slow – there are many undecided cases dating back beyond 1993. We will ensure swift and fair decisions on whether someone can stay or go, control unscrupulous immigration advisors and crack down on the fraudulent use of birth certificates.
err he said he’ll repeal the HRA 51, that he’ll lower taxes, that he’ll regain control over immigration – what more do you want?
But seriously no serious party is going to go into an election announcing that it’ll repeal the 72 Act – that’d be dumb.
At the moment over 60% of the UK’s exports go to Europe. If we left on bad terms, then the EU would tarrif slap us and that’d have serious consequences for the UK economy.
So there’s two feasible options – try to reform from the inside (unlikely) or withdraw gradually and hope to bring as many members with us into a new efta. That is Tory policy; they won’t endorse the constitution. Once we’ve made that break, perhaps a few of the other EU members would take the same stance too. Depending how numbers stack up, negotiations for reform might make sense, otherwise its seperation.
While I admire brave and forthright postion on this matter Pete, its utterly unrealistic and ultimately likely to be counter productive. As would storming into a Chanel 4 studio that would have just slung you out by the collar. Brave, but again stupid.
And Perry, if you genuinely believe that ID cards are the most pressing issue facing Britain, I really think you should stay in more.
Giles
I really hate having to repeat myself but I’ll do it just this once. A Prime Minister Howard at he head of a Conservative government cannot regain control over immigration without Parliament taking Britain out of the EU. It has gone. Bliair has signed it over as part of the inevitable and explicit slide towards Britain being abolished as a nation state.
When will you get your heads out of the sand and realise that being a part of the EU is not on offer? We cannot choose which items we like as if from a menu. The EU is to be one, whole nation state. Britain must either be abolished and surrender to total, absolute rule by Brussels or leave the EU. Does this simple fact not register?
If Britain left the EU there is not a chance in hell that our exports would be subject to tariff. Britain is far too big an export market for European companies to sit by and allow a trade war. To take just one company; BMW racked up sales of 145,000 new vehicles in the UK in 2004. Do you think BMW’s board and shareholders will allow Brussels to do anything to damage these figures with the resultant hit on share price? Not a chance.
As for campaiging and fighting for this nation on principle we see where the Tories’ subtle, quiet, lie low attitude has got them. Nearly eight years after being slung from power the polls have them trailing the worst government in memory.
Pete_London is absolutely correct in every word he writes. This is it, and the dithering Tories aren’t up to it. Their first mistake was sacking Margaret Thatcher without a proper, orderly succession in place. That’s when they revealed how weak they are. Their second mistake was William Hague, who said he “admires Tony Blair personally” – and positioned himself as BliarLite. Why would people who loathe Bliar want a cheap imitation of a cheap fortune hunter?
IDS would have become more and more effective, but the Tories allowed themselves to be shouted down about him. But he has a visceral hatred of Tony Bliar that would have served the Tories well were he at the head of the party right now.
Howard has allowed himself to be wounded by “explaining” various comments he’s made. He’s a barrister. He should know better. I’m still hoping against hope that he has been playing his cards close to his chest – and he is mature enough to be able to hold his tongue no matter the provocation – and has some aces up his sleeve. He is far, far more intelligent than Tony Dim. But I think the whole Tory establishment doesn’t have the bottle to do what the country wants – get the hell out of the gasping, grasping soon-to-be corpse that is the EU. Pete_London is right.
It seems to me that whenever the Tories even make an attempt to stick their head above the battlements they get excoriated mercilessly from all sides. The immigration “debate” just provoked was only a debate in the loosest of senses. Where was the debate exactly?
I must have missed it, all I saw was hysterics and shouting. Racist, racist, racist!
Time for the Tories to scuttle back to the bunker under such a barrage, I fear.
No Pete, the Tories can do exactly what they propose; Parlaiment can legislate to rescind its agreement to the EU directive and give its self jurisdiction over immigration – that is and has always been the right of Parliament. If the EU want to take the matter through the courts, then good for them; lets see how they ultimately propose to enforce the matter. But I suspect they wont because that they will be resisted by a number of other member countries.
Its not impossible to resist the EU on this matter – Look at Denmark’s immigration policies – they’ve limited asylum, restricted rights to bring in spouses, changed benefit entitlements and what have the EU done? Nothing. So I don’t think your shotgun solution is the only way.
Verity. I admire TB’s political skills – he is an extraordinarily adept politician – which is what Hague was referring to – its just that he has no understanding of the long term consequences of those policies. But Hague was bang on about the way TB feeds off British emotionalism (on the funeral of Diana) and how TB would turn the UK into a foreign country. I don’t think the problem was with Hague, it was with the British electorate wanting some one “trendy” and so refusing to listen to a “prat”.
And for Christ sake, how can someone still be bringing up Thatcher as a reason not to vote Tory. That was over 15 years ago for Christ’s sake, stop living in the past!
The Last Toryboy
You seem to mistake Samizdata for the Haringay Council staff canteen. I am excoriating the Tories because they have spent their entire time in opposition NOT sticking their heads above the battlements and then wonderng why they get a trouncing at election time. Outside of liberal enclaves people do not vote for those they think ‘nice’. They vote for those they respect, those who they think cut it as a credible leader. The lessons of Thatcher’s years as leader have not been learned.
Ken Clarke made the point on Question Time last night that restricting immigration is not a racist measure and was met with a round of applause. This was a Question Time audience! If liberals call you racists, if Jon Snow dissaproves then great. Wear it as a badge of honour. The Tories spent years keeping their heads below the battlements on the issue, afraid of their own shadow and then make a sensible policy announcement after Blair has made the issue redundent. How am I supposed to respect that?
Pete – Hague made these points on immigration openly and loudly at the last election and lost- so I don’t know what you mean by your statement that the Tories don’t put their heads above the parapets- they do and when they do you don’t like it.
Howard made exactly the same point as Clarke did and, well, he attracts derision on this board. Why?
My personal view is personality; you applaud Clarke because you like Clarke as a person better – despite the fact that you disagree with his key policies –he’s an avid Europhile. Howard is closer to your views but you don’t find him “charismatic enough” to vote for. In other words you’re a classic Tony Tory – you have conservative/libertarian beliefs – but at the end of the day what you most crave is a leader you like and that’s what ultimately determines your vote. And in my experience this seems to be a pervasive feature of Europeans politics as the moment; I was having a beer with a German last year and he was exactly like you – yes yes he agreed Schroder was twiddling his thumbs while Germany burned. So you’d vote him out of office then? No, he’s a great guy and the opposition are arses he said.
I’m afraid that as long as Europeans can’t distinguish between personality and politics, you’re going to be condemned to a future of blairs/schfoeder/clarkes. Sounds like hell to me.
Giles
Please read more carefully. You could hardly misrepresent what I have stated more thn you have done.
Exactly. At the last election. The Tory Party could have spent the previous four years on a beach and no-one would have known. You simply cannot be anonymous for years and then show up bright and clear on the electorate’s radar on the basis of a few month’s campaigning. Every day Blair or a government Minister appears on tv, on the radio, in our faces, here we are, we ARE politics in Britain they are saying, only us. Come election time Blair is the default option for many because he wants it and you obviously don’t. How many times must it be said? To beat a champion you must knock them down and rip their title from them. The Tories prefer to cower in the corner.
I have explained why I have excoriated him above. As I said, read more carefully.
The rest of your post is nonsense insofar as you apply it to me. In mentioning Ken Clarke I was obviously bringing attention to the reaction of a Question Time audience when he stated that limiting immigration is not racist, not to Clark himself. I do wish you’d read what is in front of you.
Another example:
What the hell have I already stated? I’ll give it to you again. From me, above:
For the avoidance of doubt, my vote will go to the next person who promises to leave me alone and repeal more laws than they pass. Clear enough?
I notice you have avoided the EU’s intention to abolish nation states and create THE country of Europe. I agree with UKIP’s/a> take:
If you agree I wonder why you will vote Tory, if you don’t then in my opinion you are giving a fine impression of an ostrich.
You simply cannot be anonymous for years and then show up bright and clear on the electorate’s radar on the basis of a few month’s campaigning.
Is this the Tories fault or the public/media’s? I don’t want to sound too Trotskyite but the difference between successful right wing parties like the Republicans and Ozzie Liberals is that they have managed to open up channels to communicate with the people, and bypass the media, that the Conservatives haven’t. One of the Channels of communication that they opened was through the internet, often through writers that had libertarian instincts that had a lot of difficulty with a lot of Howard and Bush’s politics. But most of them realized that politics is ultimately about compromise. But reading this blog, I get the impression that ideological purity is more important than political effectiveness. And that’s what’s getting to me – I think some of the writers here would rather Blair gets in so that they can get really angry and told you so, than actually stopping it all happening.
The ratification by the British Parliament of the EU Constitution would mean the end of Britain as an independent nation state.”
Have the Tories pledged to do this? No, they’re against it, so it won’t happen if a Tory government is elected.
By contrast if you vote UKIP, there’s a good chance Labor will win and get ratification. So while UKIP may be the “pure” straight backed Euro-sceptic party, they will never have any power or influence and will easily be dismissed as cranks by the Labor PR machine if a ratification comes before parliament. So when you vote at this election, I’d be careful, it might be the last real vote you get.
Giles: “Verity. I admire TB’s political skills – he is an extraordinarily adept politician – which is what Hague was referring to”
Well, when I say I “like someone as a person”, I am not referring to their skills as a surgeon or an engine driver. I mean, I like them as a human being. Is that so hard to understand? Hague said he liked Toxic Tony as a person, which turned off hundreds of thousands of Tory voters who loathe Tone as a “person” – if that is not too strong a word, given the hissing reptilian aspect.
You also write, inexplicably, “And for Christ sake, how can someone still be bringing up Thatcher as a reason not to vote Tory. That was over 15 years ago for Christ’s sake, stop living in the past!”
Argue by all means, but read the points your opponents make. You misread what Hague said about Blair, and now you miscomprehend what I said about Thatcher’s succession. I said the Tories didn’t have a plan in place before they knifed her in the back – meaning they’re an inept bunch of knockabouts. This has nothing to do with harking back to Margaret Thatcher herself. It was the Heseltines and other “big beasts” manqué to whom I was referring. Du-uh.
OTOH, I was interested in your comment that the Ozzie Howard and the Republicans had opened up channels to the public and bypass the media. This cannot happen in Britain, because no right wing/conservative media are allowed. In the US, there are scores of conservative radio call-in stations. In Britain, the BBC controls radio. Britain is already a dictatorship governed by the BBC and I cannot understand why the British haven’t understood this. And they are paying their “licence fees” for their own subjugation.
Verity, since Heseltine isn’t active in the Tory Party how is he and any of the Oldies relevant.
And back to Hague – btw you wrote admire but if you want to interpret that as like, again there’s nothing wrong with liking people you disagree with; act its a sign of maturity and is not entirely unusual.
In fact perhaps one of TB’s greatest strengths is that, like Bush and Thatcher he makes people who disagree with him personaly loathe him. And once they do that they loose the veneer of objectivity, so their critisicms dont really resonate with the rest of the public who dont feel the same animus.
So in total, I think Hague had Blair down to a tee – he’s admirable, likeable but he’ll destroy the country.
But Hague also, I think understood that this was really to sophiticated a concept for the electorate to understand which is perhaps why he’s dropped out of politics.