Although I knew this day was coming, it is profoundly depressing nevertheless. It is now the law that ID cards will be imposed by force in Britain, with the support of the Leaders of the Conservative Party and the Labour Party. They have won and as far as I am concerned, the guttering flame of the culture of liberty in Britain just blew out.
I do not expect a truly repressive state to be implemented for many years yet (hopefully), but the infrastructure of tyranny is now well and truly in place, all of which came to pass with a soundtrack of a faint bleating sound of an indifferent public in the background. You might as well flip a coin to figure out which party will usher it in but a authoritarian panoptic state is coming. If this is what the majority of British people want, then may they get exactly what they deserve, but I am out of here. For those of you who will be happy to see me go, trust me, the feeling is mutual.
I realise most people will just shrug their ovine shoulders and find my worries inexplicable, crazy even, as it is not like Blair and Howard are setting up Gulags, right? No, of course not. Who needs those when there is a camera on every corner and your every purchase and phone call will eventually be logged on a central government database? As far as I concerned, the war is over and my side lost.
I have to try and speed up my business ventures and get out as soon as I can afford to do so. I shall try to be out of Britain and have my primary residence in the USA by 2007 at the latest to avoid being forced to submit to this intolerable imposition… and I shall be taking my wealth generating assets with me. I cannot say I am looking forward to winters in New Hampshire but I do not really see that I have much choice anymore. I do not see the United States as a paragon of civil liberties (to put it mildly), but at least it is a place in which the battle can be fought within the last bastion of the Anglosphere’s culture of liberty.
Damn it.
Welcome, Perry. We can use your help!
Don’t expect to get free of this crap in NH. The US Senate passed a version of backdoor national ID, setting biometric standards for Driver’s licenses, tying them to social security numbers, and trying to coerce individual states into accepting these standards.
It hasn’t passed the House …. yet.
Ingsoc has always been allied with Oceania!
Well, although I don’t exactly agree with everything you say, I think you’re on the right side & will be sad to think you upped sticks and buggered off. Still, good luck whichever side of the Atlantic you’re on.
EG
If you insist on fleeing, you may want to consider Wyoming.
Land is cheaper over here, and you won’t get harassed for open carry.
The last bastion? Here in Oz you are still free to kick the cat, spit on the floor and call the Prime Minister a c**t, even if guns are restricted.
The notion that governments do anything with the information they collect is really touching. The Wizard of Oz had more credibility than big brother. Anyone who’s ever been a consultant to a government ministry or agency I’m certain will bear me out.
And yes indeed there are occasional horrendous screw ups usually by some minion pushing the wrong data entry key but most of the time the stuff the government collects just lies there like inert matter.
Charles Clarke should be charged for treason. He’s murdered our country.
Millie: While that is currently true – it can change. A greater threat in the short term is error and incompetence. I can see situations of innocent people completely unaible to do things because “the system says so”. If my experiences of banks, insurance companies and credit agencies are anything to go by, it’s only a matter of time before those at the ends of the bell curve just can’t do anything.
Luckily, I have dual nationality.
Perry – why New Hampshire? Go to Vermont – better skiing, fewer stockbrokers, more wacko nutcases and loads of grumpy old hippies. Brilliant! Bet the hunting’s better too.
Millie Woods:
Texas may be too hot for you, Perry, but yer always welcome down here. No state income tax, just like New H., and friendly people withal.
We’ll keep a light* in the window for ya.
*“Light” = burning Democrat or hippie
My heartfelt condolences, Perry.
I hope you find what you’re after here, and not a like society by 2007.
So Millie does tax funded IT consultancy for the state, eh? Feel free to burn in hell, you parasite.
Much as I agree with Millie’s sentiments regarding the efficiency and or IQ of the average so-called “public servant, I don’t CARE if “…the stuff the government collects just lies there like inert matter.” They don’t need the information in the first place.
While I won’t be on the next flight out after Perry de Havilland, I can absolutely understand why he is going and I entirely share his feelings about this shaming betrayal.
The past few years have been like watching the slow death of a loved relative. I might not be so far behind if we can’t turn this dark tide.
I like to think I am a law abiding sort of fellow, but one of the things which kept me on the straight and narrow, more or less, was that I did not want to have a criminal record. It was a sort of compact with the state: I obey the law, they do not want my mugshot and fingerprints. Well now they do. It seems that we will all have a sort of criminal record, because the state does not trust us. The feeling is entirely mutual as far as I am concerned. If I act like a criminal, they will treat me like a criminal. So if they treat me like a criminal, why should I not act like one? They can stick their laws up their fat arses, I’m off to take up fox hunting!
I don’t think the fight over ID cards has been lost yet. There’s still the later commons debates, but more promisingly the passage of the bill through Lords. If the peers are minded they could block the bill this side of the election. The main questions are whether the Tory peers will snub Howard, what the cross benchers will do and how big a rebellion from Labour peers can be expected. But they’ve caused the govt trouble before and can do so again.
Also I expected the govt to win their commons votes on this due to their hefty majority and the amount of political capital they’re sinking into it.
Of course defeat of the bill now may only delay the legislation getting on the books, but buying time will be useful. And then of course even if they do get on the books, there’s the implementation. A mass campaign of non-cooperation with this odious scheme will scupper it.
The question is whether those opposed can persuade enough people to join them in such a venture.
ISTM that this last year has actually seen interest in and concern over civil liberties increase as it slowly dawns on people what is happening. Whether this trend will continue or not, who can tell? But I ain’t giving up yet, even if it hasn’t yet gained enough momentum to stop the govt’s onslaught.
Still, I have my eyes on the door should things not pan out. The Civil Contingencies Act has already made me wonder about voting with my feet…
Good luck Perry, whereever you move to.
Perry-
First, I’m very sorry to see this day come.
Second, if someone gets a comment in ahead of this one, I may not be the first to recommend that you consider Texas. I will try to be the most serious and least boosterish.
I’ve never been to New Hampshire. I did all of my university field work in Wyoming and love the place. I grew up in Michigan so I like cold climates and dislike very hot ones. In spite of all that, I wouldn’t consider leaving Texas as my adopted home. The climate is admittedly hellish at times (although, suprisingly you can get to like it!). We have more than our share of statists -especially in Austin (the only county in the state to go to Kerry). Most of this is a holdover from the old “Yellow Dog Democrat” days: from the end of the Civil War until the campaign of Ronald Reagan (when Texan’s brains finally began to work). (A yellow Dog Democrat is one who would vote for a yellow dog if it ran on the democrat ticket. This was apparently hereditary – I was told by one ‘good old boy’ in rural East Texas in 1976 that his pappy voted democrat, his grandpappy voted democrat and by God so would he. This in spite of the fact that, according to him, the republican gubernatorial candidate that year was “absolutely right about everything and a nice guy to boot” and the democrat was a “sumbitch”. But sadly: “There’s room enough in the Democratic party for everybody and he’s just a damn troublemaker for running as a Republican”.
That kind of cognitive dissonance is thankfully dying out. The string of leftwing ideologues that the Democrats have been running for national office has been a big help.
Libertarianism is, perhaps not as pure here as it is in New Hampshire, but we didn’t go for Kerry, and we have Ron Paul.
The biggest three reasons for relocating here instead of elsewhere are:
1. The state is an economic powerhouse – more even than California. Wyoming is an absolutely gorgeous place – but it’s tough to make a living there. The forces of liberty here are just as committed as they are elsewhere, and they have more cash to do something about it. There are statists here too, but we are winning. We are also disproportionatly influential in the Federal government.
2. The antiauthority climate is not going to change here anytime soon. Even the yellow dogs were yellow dogs because of a rebellion against the Feds. No place is perfect and we have our problems. For example we probably have more cops, rent a cops, constables, sheriffs, troopers, rangers and assorted other uniformed instruments of the state per capita than most other states. They didn’t keep us from getting a carry law passed and when they periodically overreach, they usually get slapped down again. Most people here are not libertarians per se, they just tend to start turning red and shooting steam from their ears when they hear of government control and meddling.
3. If worse comes to worse, you can live here pretty cheaply and there is a border to the south to flee to if the need arises. Homeland Security is closing it from the outside in, but I suspect it will be porous the other way.
When Davy Crockett finished his career as a US Congressman from Tennessee, he is reputed to have given a very short valedictory address: “I’m going to Texas and you can all go to Hell!”
Sounds like it might work for you too.
Welcome!! I got out two years ago; cashed in on the insane house prices which gave me enough to pay off the mortgage and buy a house and car outright for cash in sunny rural Virginia. Best move I ever made. They won’t let me work yet, but I can get by on my army pension quite comfortably – could never dream of doing that in GB – and don’t have to worried about being robbed by juvenile yobbos on the street or government thieves with spy cameras. AND it doesn’t rain 9 months of the year!
Oops! I forgot to pay the last instalment of Council tax before I left; Oh dear, how sad never mind ;~))
Colorado is the second most free state, economically, according to the Wall St. Journal, just try to avoid the Denver-Boulder corrider.
Unless, of course, you are attached to the glittering night life of the big city. Denver is known as the biggest cow town in the world, in spite of the best efforts of successive administrations to turn it into a scaled-down version of Chicago or San Francisco.
Millie’s comment about the stuff sitting there inert may be true for much of the population but that does not mean the system isn’t a dangerous threat to liberty.
The essential point is that for the law abiding population, the govt will have enough detail on their lives to really screw them over if they want to and the ID card system will make it very easy to do so. It will also be a licence to exist, revokable at the press of a computer key (or even the corruption of a hard drive), marking the population very much as sheep to be herded by the state.
It will establish a seriously intrusive and meddlesome bureaucracy too. And the question of what happens if a competent and efficient bunch of fascists takes power is also raised.
AIUI the Nazis were far more efficient at getting rid of Jews in the Netherlands due to a computerised population database, than they were in France without such a thing…
Who needs to build a gulag?, the whole damned place is one giant gulag.
I have for years seen the UK as one big refugee camp, it certainly didn’t take much effort to make it into a prison camp.
“From sea to shining sea, the State has it’s beady eye on me”
Socialism really is the most odious of philosophies…
This fight will have to be fought in the USA, too. I think we’ll hold the b*stards off over here.
Glad you are coming over. I think you will like it.
I grew up in Massachusetts. The winters are tolerable in New England, you just need the right clothes, shovels, etc.
One other thing Perry, don’t be slow about moving out your ‘wealth producing assets’.
The powers-that-be will have far more interest, far sooner, in keeping those from leaving than they will have in keeping you from leaving.
You might consider deploying them ahead of your own departure.
What happens if people, maybe quite a few people, simply refuse to have ID cards? I don’t plan on getting one, and don’t how I can be forced into it. surely there are a few hundred thousand people who would refuse them?
“Oops! I forgot to pay the last instalment of Council tax before I left; Oh dear, how sad never mind ;~))”
Oh dear Stuart, as if further proof were needed to support Perry’s argument the recent arrest of Richard North(Link) over at EU referendum for just such behaviour shows how much Britain has fallen into the pits. Let us know if your former Council pursues you and you hear the knock on the door in the middle of the night….
Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada (Reno is a great town), Arizona, New Mexico, Texas. Rent an RV and have a look around.
On a related note, does anyone know of a good resource for information regarding emigrating to the USA? While I intend to be dragged in chains, kicking and screaming into the ‘data-collection centre’ (that sort of thing always looks good to the press) it’s always good to know the alternatives.
Sorry to disappoint you but here in America we Brits have to carry ID cards called permanent resident cards. I’ve been here 21 years and I’m still carrying one.
And you won’t be eligible for US citizenship unless you are willing to “renounce and abjure” your British heritage, no matter how long you stay.
Also, I think Millie is right.
I literally shed a tear for the future of Britain tonight. Not that I am surprised, but saddened by how quickly we have shed our beautiful common law tradition of civil liberties. The same country which repelled the Third Reich is now introducing one of the very same things which made the Holocaust possible. I hope Blair and Clarke and these fools are happy turning the sacrifice of the second World War in to a folly. Britain will not produce a Churchill again. We will only produce fear, ignorance, doubt, uncertainty and ultimately calamity.
Graham is right about the cards. My Chinese wife is stuck with hers….and the new ones are “smarter” with more magnetic information about you in them.
New Hampshire isn’t bad….I’ve got a wingnutty brother there. Texas is my country, and if you can live with a $200 electric bill in the summer, you’ll be allright.
Editors note: Comment deleted. Fuck off
That’s beacuse you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m a former copper with the Met and was involved in several IT projects that scared the hell out of me. I moved to Australia (hardly a civil rights paradise) 4 years ago because I don’t want my children to grow up in the Britain of the future that I see coming. He’s right, most people are sheep. Stupid, stupid sheep.
Cosa Nos: Fool. It is not the ID cards but the ID cards plus data pooling on a scale the NSA/FBI/BATF can only dream about.
I know a great deal about the realities of civil rights and ID in the USA as I have lived perhaps 1/3rd of my life there (and as a result the ‘paper work’ is not a problem). As I said if you bothered to read my article before wasting those pixels, I do not regard the USA as a paragon of civil liberties, just that the battle is fightable there. Britain on the other hand is a write-off.
Graham Lester – You don’t have to abjure your British heritage. Your heritage is what you are. You have to give up loyalty to Britain. And carrying a Green Card is your choice. You don’t want to carry one, get out of the United States, as it’s a condition for staying.
Who wouldn’t want to dissociate themselves completely from today’s Britain? I wish I had had the fortitude to take that oath years ago, when I lived in Texas. I was being loyal to a chimera, a country that even then was self-destructing.
Perry, they say Texas is a state of mind and I love it! As the mighty Kim says, no state income tax, you can have all the guns you feel like having and can carry two or three rifles around in the rack in the back of your pickup – along with a dog who’s learned to take corners. It has the incredible skylines of Houston and Dallas – and Dallas for the opera but definitely Houston for the ballet. Both have great theatres. The folks are stylish and sassy or downhome and mostly, they are friendly and polite.
Houston is humid, humid, humid in the summer, with the doo jes’ drippin’ right offa the magnolias, but Dallas has dry heat. Everyone’s got a little ranch outside the Metroplex. Marvellous stores. Don’t know about big D, but Houston has a British Market where you can buy Marmite and all kinds of things. Food is cheap. Did I mention no state income tax? That’s why Texas has oil. They decided to find oil rather than have a state income tax. Also has the death penalty, which certainly puts a damper of intentions to murder.
Steve – Does any know of a good resource for information about immigrating to the US? If you have to ask, maybe you should consider not abandoning the nanny state where you can receive directions from the minute you get up in the morning. Had it occurred to you to go, for example, to United States Government and – oh, wild stab in the dark here – click on Department of Immigration?
I’ve lived in Texas all my life. I’ve had two guns pulled on me while walking down the street. I’ve heard a bullet whistle over my head on a sunny day with no one in sight. As for ID cards, I hear the boots marching in that direction even as I type. It isn’t the place, it is the people. Besides, you will hate the cricket.
Depending upon one’s climate preference and wealth there are a large number of alternatives. My personal favourite is still the Isle of Man:
1) Very low taxes
2) A government that believes that interference in anything to do with the economy can only harm business
3) A rather healthy dislike of Westminster.
4) Offshore banking services
5) No speed limits!
and most important of all… It isn’t a part of the EU!
I suspect ID cards will be quietly shelved once Blair is gone. It’s funny, but the best chance for burying the measure in the short term is probably a Lib-Lab coalition government or something equally bizarre.
First you threaten to cross us off your blogroll. Now you threaten to bug out. If you’re going to bug out, chill out. Forget New Hampshire. We’re enjoying California.
Our local neighborhood chain grocer (Plano, Texas–‘burb of the Dallas area)) carries Brit foods.
Regarding emigrating: There are lots of ways to get here. Start a business where you are now. If you’ve been in business making some money, with people in your employ (could be family even, with different last names) you can get a 2 year residence visa to open your business here. It won’t enable you to work for someone else, but it gets you were legally for 2 years.
It varies from state-to-state so talk to an immigration attorney. You’ll form a corporation, which is no more complicated than a filing fee. After two years, since you’re already here, you can file for an extension to stay. If you’ve employed people in that 2 years they will not want you to leave.
That, or date a lot and find an american to marry.
Mrs du Toit – didn’t know you were in Plano (or surrounds)! Isn’t that where ‘Southfork’ (series ‘Dallas’) was? I was up there on business and was taken to look at the house (for some reason).
Aaaahhhh California. Paradise maybe to escapees from European-style statism, but a socialist hellhole to the rest of us.
Land of severe gun restrictions (forget that cool AK, Perry), insane anti-business regulations (what was that about “wealth generation devices”?), enviro-loonies and taxes which are still (just) lower than Sweden’s.
And if you thought real estate was expensive in England, wait till you try to buy a house in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco or San Jose.
Coming soon: rolling brownouts and frightening electricity bills.
Oh yes… and earthquakes, droughts and mudslides, sometimes in the same season.
Stick with New Hampshire. You can always get warm.
But to exchange Britain for California is like climbing out of the frying pan and falling onto the gas ring.
Ask The Mrs. She was born in California, and lived there for over thirty years.
Whilst I fully understand the young wishing to leave Blairitania,some of us are too old to start again.
So you will remember us won’t you,keep sending the food parcels and the crystal radios.
BTW If you think the Chavs will put up with this crap without screwing the system,you don’t know our underclass.I’ll give ID cards three weaks before the first fakes hit the street.Perry your name will be free won’t it?
Verity,
Forsooth we are in Plano. Just down the road (in Texas terms) from Southfork.
So let’s see if I have this right: You’re so upset that you have to carry a card with your picture on it that you’re going to move to the US, where to get a green card you’ll have to submit full sets of fingerprints, police reports from every town you’ve ever lived in, the results of a medical exam, and a set of six pictures of yourself at various angles.
And as a resident alien, every time you move you’ll have to inform the federal government, and if you ever get into trouble you’ll be deported.
And every April you’ll be submitting a report to the IRS, which claims an entirely higher degree of control over you than any country on earth.
Big improvement.
Fiona Bre:
So let’s see if I have this right:
Yes, dear, you have it right. Because one expects to submit to identity checkups as an immigrant to a foreign land, but does not expect, or tolerate, such checkups in the land of one’s birth and citizenship.
To make it easy for you: Americans, on their own soil, do not have to submit to the checks that Green Card holders have to submit to on American soil while they carry the designated status: Foreigner. Once they are a citizen, such checks stop. In Britain, now, they won’t.
Mrs du Toit – Plano down the road — this is unbelievable.
As noted above, you are aware that the recently passed “intelligence” reforms in the US Senate provide for what is essentially a national ID card…with lots of data attached. Plenty of traffic cameras over here as well — even ones that can issue you automatic and virtually uncontestable citations for running red lights.
Why not hang tough in the UK though and schmooze with the Independence Party? Oh yeah, forgot you don’t have guns. (That was a big mistake.)
When you get over here, think about hanging out a bit with the John Birch Society crew who have been fighting totalitarianism for 46 years now. Little bit of God mixed in with the libertarian flavor, but your Illuminati schtick creditials are a natural fit.
As for states to call home, this Michiganer by upbringing lists Texas, New Hampshire, and Montana right up there, but now living in nearby North Carolina, let me put in a plug for South Carolina. The abundance of Billy bobs and Confederate flags not withstanding, this is the state that was the first to flip off both the King and Lincoln and the tradition I am informed is likely to continue. Charleston is best if you like the ocean. Greenville is a good place if you want to stay close to your continental friends like BMW and Michellin.
Mrs du Toit,
I’m aware of the difference between citizens and foreigners, but if you’re moving to the US from the UK, you won’t be doing it to increase your liberty, at least not in the short term.
To address your larger point:
US citizens still have to make tax returns, and the IRS still claims a much higher degree of ownership to citizens than Inland Revenue: try investing in any offshore funds as a green card holder or US citizen and you’ll see what I mean.
Finally, as was pointed out in an earlier comment the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 calls for a “global standard of identification” and minimum national standards for birth certificates, driver’s licenses and state ID cards, and Social Security cards and numbers. It also directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to establish new standards for ID for domestic air travelers.
In other words, no, the checks won’t stop, and they will be more intrusive than in the UK, just administered differently.
Has anyone else noticed how very much greener the grass is on that side of the fence?…
Julian Taylor,
As far as I know the Govt intends to introduce ID control in IoM and the Channel Islands, too. (See for example, Lord Falconer’s speech to the States of Jersey back in May) It can do so by prerogative with far less fuss than on the mainland.
Perry,
Those of us who cannot leave (and the US is likely happily to extradite us, recall) must stay to fight. Even if the Bill passes unmutilated, it still has to be implemented, which is easier said than done once a significant proportion of the population wakes up. It may be stopped; if not it may be reversed.
I hope it just might precipitate the turning of the tide in Britain in favour of liberty. But even if I hope wrong, I have no option but to fight.
Another Texas benefit: Big Bend National Park, one of the best spots in North America for amateur astronomy. Great natural scenery, too.
You do realise that, in moving to another country and particularly the USA, you are likely to be filed, stamped, briefed and debriefed about exactly as much. You’ll be required to notify the government of your location and produce papers on demand. You’ll probably even get your own biometric ID card, although it will be called a “resident alien visa”.
Guy,
Thanks for that but I notice that many laws that passed in the UK have the clause, “Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for provisions of this Act to extend with such modifications (if any) as She thinks fit to any of the Channel Islands or to the Isle of Man.” included as an often redundant clause. The UK provides, by written convention, only the conduct of external relations and defence of the Island, all other laws and regulations are conducted via the Tynwald (Parliament) and the IoM does not form a part of the United Kingdom. Phoney and his dreadful band of self-righteous authoritarians have no remit to the IoM at all – all business conducted by Douglas is subject, at the Tynwald’s own discretion, to scrutiny by the Lieutenant Governor of the island, who in turn reports directly to The Queen, as Lord of the Mann.
As I said, I do not regard the US as a paragon of civil liberties, just a place that the fight is still possible to fight without the certainty of defeat. I am not looking for a ‘short term fix’
Again, I am well aware (Link) of that
All true. But there is not even any basis for effective opposition in the UK, the last ditch has fallen and it is not hard to see where we are headed. That is why I intend to head to New Hampshire when I can afford to do so. Not to relax but to fight the machine with like minded people.
That and the fact my mother was American and thus I have a US passport… I chose to live in the UK, the land of my father, I did not *have* to.
Perry, I am really sad it has come to this. I feel 100 pct the same way. I know several folk involved in the Free State Project of NH, including its former vp, and I can put you in touch with him, although I am sure you have your own ways and means.
The picture of a sheep sums up what I feel about the majority of my fellow countrymen. Wake the f**k up, people.
We’re glad to have you. Enjoy the USA.
Perry,
If you plan to be there in 2007, you’ll have had enough time to settle in by the time Hilary becomes president !
;-))
On another note : the passage of more and more big-brother, big-government, big-bureacracy is exactly what is needed in the UK. I’m convinced that the Brits will find someone who will take us out of Europe, cut the employment of Local Government Window Inspector types and get Britain back on track. More laws for ID cards and Emergency Powers are just the ticket to speed up this process.
Some of us left a number of years ago. I’m actually thinking of moving back just so that I can work towards buggering the system up.
Tim,
The same thought crossed my mind. Do you think it might be worth the sacrifice?
Perry – we Australians had this debate back in…I think it was ’86. The Labor government at the time (who also produced the vast bulk of market reforms that underpin our economic success) tried to introduce an ‘Australia Card’. Sadly for them it died in the arse. Why? Because it’s constitutionally illegal. The proposal to alter the constitution to make ID cards legal was put to the public and it was voted down. In this country it’s fiendishly hard to change the constitution. There have been around (+- 10) one hundred attempts to alter our constitution, yet, I think less than ten have succeeded. For the consitution to be changed, the federal government must call a referendum in which a ‘double majority’ has to approve of the changes. This double majority consists of a majority of people in a majority of states. Since the two progressive states are the most populous, and the more numerous small-population states are quite conservative, referenda rarely succeed. The approval of an (occasionally large) popular majority isn’t enough. Oh yes, there’s an even number of states, making it that much more difficult to achieve the majority of states. Ergo, the chances of an ID card being introduced here are probably even slighter than in the USA, so maybe you should give us a go. Our winters are very tolerable, too. However, we are pretty picky about who we let in these days. If you’re a saw doctor, parasitologist or sports administrator (especially sports administrator) you have a pretty good chance.
America might suit you better, though many of us despair these days.
Let me say, though, that I sorrow for you. It’s a sad thing when your country, that you’ve loved from birth, betrays you. Please accept my condolences and my hope that you find a place where the spark of freedom still glows merrily this Christmas.
America might suit you better, though many of us despair these days.
Let me say, though, that I sorrow for you. It’s a sad thing when your country, that you’ve loved from birth, betrays you. Please accept my condolences and my hope that you find a place where the spark of freedom still glows merrily this Christmas.
This is a great pity Perry but I understand how you feel. I came to Britain to get away from nanny-statism that pervades Maine (no smoking in bars, high taxes, over-regulation, political correct thuggery etc) and it saddens me to see that the UK is becoming just as bad. I would point out that Maine Republicans are as cowardly as the Tories (C.onservative I.n N.ame O.nly) are in the UK.
New Hampshire is a very nice state, filled with good people like Ben, low taxes and lots of guns. You will get used to the cold and fall in love with the scenery. Alas, Maine, the state my parents live are almost as socialist as Vermont. Would not surprise you to hear quite a few people work in Maine and live in NH.
London Spy reported on the breakdown of what Tory MPs did during the vote. Most of those “against” did the cowardly thing and stayed away.
So here I am in Florida watching people argue about whether it will be possible to continue to exist in anything resembling freedom in England for long and I remember I have a dozen or so cards in my wallet that identify me pretty clearly and don’t feel very free. I like the fact I can buy a gun and use it on someone threatening my life or property without penalty other than having to explain myself to the judicial system. Other than that I’m not sure how much the US has to offer. The bureaucracies here may be friendlier but can be just as ferocious when crossed and are highly computerized. If national identity in full Soviet garb comes to Britain, then tourists to EUnuchistan will be no worse off than citizens. Perhaps I’ll become a permanent tourist when I retire.
I think it’s the cameras that are making you all so skittish. It’ll be a while before video cameras completely cover Wyoming or Montana.
Mrs du Toit – Sorry you had to take the hit for me in the comments of Fiona Bre.
I feel obligated to go ahead and toss in my endorsement for Texas as well, though I now live in the hell hole that is New Jersey.
I’m sorry your nation of choice has fallen to the forces Hayek warned against 70 years ago, but glad to have you continue the fight in my homeland. If you ever find yourself in Princeton, you’ve a free drink waiting for you.
I didn’t have to renounce anything before I came here, and I’ve got my green card now. They certainly didn’t say I had to renounce my Irish citizenship, even if they don’t recognize it anymore.
Welcome! We need all the help we can get over here. Your conclusions are very reminiscent of my own when I decided to bail the undefensible ground of NJ for the more free and defensible ground of PA.
Some fights can only be won if you’re not standing in the open waiting to be picked off.
Just a quick question… would you prefer cameras to ID cards, or vice versa? I know a common refrain when people visit London is “There are so many cameras!” and a frequently heard retort is “If that’s the price of a society without ID cards, so be it.” Thoughts?
Perry, we would be more than glad to have you here. America can always use more ambitious immigrants who understand what real oppression is.
Yes, America isn’t perfect. But for those who claim the US isn’t more free than Britain, consider this: In my home state of Utah, I can walk into the corner gun store, pick out a handgun, fill out a form, wait a few minutes, pay the cashier, load said gun, carry it on my person or in my car, and do all of it during my lunch hour.
Furthermore, if a teenage Gangsta happens to break into my house, I can use this gun to end his career of crime, and Utah law will absolve me of both criminal and civil liability.
For me, there’s no contest. Game, set, match for America.
Suffering,
Do you mean the same “free” Australia where you can be put on trial for “villifying” Islam?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11717092^1702,00.html
good riddance to bad rubbish, perry
I have found from conversations with my foreign students that Americans tend to over-react violently (in the student’s opinion) to any change which might seem to affect their freedoms…meaning that what we see here as huge changes are perceived as tiny blips overseas. That kind of over-reaction is a good thing.
This is the place to come if you want to fight the good fight. We do need more viable candidates on the Libertarian ticket tho, so hurry up and get your citizenship…you can run for almost everything.
Stay away from Jersey…it’s not much different than Kali. I’m partial to Pennsy myself. I’m moving next door to the Geek with a .45.
at last a ray of sunshine. one request: if you’re going can you take that gimlet-eyed buffoon carr with you?
Susan, I see you use quotation marks around the word ‘free’. Funny, I’m pretty sure I didn’t use that word once in my post. Look, I’m not trying to deny that we’ve had our version of the Patriot Act rammed through federal parliament, don’t get me wrong. I just thought recounting the Australian brush with the ID card was an interesting addendum to Perry’s post. Nor was I singing the praises of our constitution. If you’re an Australian constitutional specialist you’ll know it’s about as relevant to the workings of the modern Australian government as something that’s…well…not particularly relevant. If anything, it was probably more luck than the far-sightedness of our ostensibly libertarian founding fathers – many of whom were particularly authoritarian – that the ID card is unconstitutional. No, those men who authored our constitution were probably out to prevent some occurrence with literal similarity to the ID card predicament today. Happily, the High Court, which interprets the constitution, no longer attempts to ‘get inside the heads’ of our founding fathers, and deliberates only on what is written in the constitution.
When Alfred was on Alderney Island the odds were stacked against him. When the Normans replaced the ruling class with French speakers. When the Tudors persecuted people on the grounds of their religion. When the Stuarts became enthusiasts for the divine right of kings. It all seemed hopeless. Well Alfred won, the Normans became naturalised, the Wars of Religion burnt themselves out, and the Glorious Revolution established a constitutional monarchy.
Now it seems equally hopeless. On the coat tails of the State those who enthused about the French Revolution and Napoleon have taken control of the State. The BBC is an organ of Leftist propaganda. Schools are largely run by and for Leftists. We are governed by a power hungry, morally corrupt, and deceitful government. The opposition consists of middle class socialists who call themselves Liberals, and the Conservatives, who elder statesmen [the traitors generation] sought to hand over our nation to its enemies.
But hang on! If you assembled a list of the 100 leading Leftists thinkers of the last 100 years, you would be hard put to find 5% whose work is not now wholly discredited. Large sections of the UK economy have been released from government control, and anybody now who suggested that the banks ought to be nationalised, or that oil companies, phone companies, and airlines should be once more run by the government would be ridiculed.
Few of those in the know believe that the television licence fee system will survive for much longer. The current political apathy is a product of a temporary boom caused by high government spending – a boom that is going to crash once tax revenues fall short of expenditure.
If you think that people are generally impressed by the way educationalists have destroyed the British education system, or that people believe the Harold Shipman Memorial Health Service to be a model of excellence, you are in for a shock. A voucher scheme of some sort in education is inevitable; and this will gradually shift power away from the educational establishment towards those who actually want to be educated.
If you believe that the British find the notion of withdrawing from the European Union unthinkable, you are deluding yourself. A majority already exists for withdrawl/re-negotation, and as its true character is revealed this majority slowly gets larger.
Finally, if you believe that the UK are enthusiasts for New Labour, and hold Blair in high esteem, then you need to get out more!
Islam it is the religion of only about 5% of the population of the UK, and despite the best efforts of the multiculturalists to foster bigotry, the majority have a respect for liberty.
This is not to say that there are not struggles ahead. Never underestimate the passion of idiots and parasites, but so long as there are people like Perry de Havilland making a difference, those who are in favour of liberty will win.
Every society has givers and takers. The takers currently have the upper hand, but do not write off the British quite yet.
I meant Athelney Island of course.
Perry,
We will welcome you with open arms, but I think we all weep a little for what Great Britain has become. Her leaders have forsaken her greatness.
I wish I could advise you to move to Pennsylvania, but we have a long way to go before we are free. I may be headed for warmer/greener/redder pastures myself. My recommendations are Virginia and Colorado.
Whereever you end up, know that there are millions who are in this fight with you.
For Liberty
Fox
Suffering,
Take a chill pill. I would use quotation marks around the word “free” for any member of the “Free” World now, as we are all losing our civil liberties at more or less the same rate.
I find attacks on free speech, however, such as the Victoria “religious hate speech” law (and the proposed UK law of the same kind), more horrifying than identity cards. WIth free speech you can fight such things as identity cards; without it you can’t fight anything for very long.
As an immigrant to the US, albeit from the Soviet Union, I can wholeheartedly support your intentions and motivations. I see the enroaching statism/socialism here, but as you say, there is the freedom and the hope here to actually successfully fight it. It would seem to me that it is a fundamental freedom that brings forth other liberties that derive themselves from it.
Good luck and welcome when you do arrive on this soil to join the rest of the real freedom fighters.
Perry,
After reading Joyce Lee Malcom’s shocking article in the Telegraph (see link below), I am very interested in knowing what kept you from making this decision a *long* time ago.
All the very best wishes to you!
(Link)
Total State and local taxes in the United States vary from over 13% of total income (New York), to about 8% of total income (New Hampshire and Tennesse).
Generally speaking low tax areas tend to be low regulation areas.
Tennesse (I am told) now has lower total taxes than New Hampshire, and (of course) New Hampshire has just seen the terrible defeat of Governor Benson.
The key defeat in New Hampshire was the court judgement, some years ago, demanding a State property tax for education (judges demanding tax and spend policies are a well known feature of American life – the only guard against such evil folk, is to have judges elected for short fixed terms).
The tide of people from New York and Mass (who flee from the results of high government spending, only to demand high government spending) is (I am told) difficult to fight in New Hamshire.
If you went to Tennessee you might face the country music of Nashville – but there are a lot of other features of the “Athens of the South”.
To give one small example, you could see the Parthenon as it should be (statue of Athena and all) rather than that smashed up ruin in Greece.
Have no fear the Parthenon outside Nashville is (by all accounts) a solid 19th century piece of work.
New Hampshire should be less difficult for libertarians to influence, because it is a small State. However, the very smallness has allowed the general (vile) spirit of the north east of the United States to gain power.
There is much in the history of the South that is bad (slavery and Jim Crow), but the history has had one good effect. It has made the South (or much of it anyway) instinctively hostile to the currents of thought than dominate in the mainstream world.
You know as well as I do what currents of thought dominate the mainstream media and universities (both in the United States and outside it), so there is a lot to be said for an area that (although it has many mainstream universities and newspapers of its own) has a basic distrust of modern (statist) “liberalism”.
James – You missed the point of the exchange. The original commenter was complaining because he had to carry a Green Card because the only alternative was to take out American citizenship, in which case he would be required to abjure his British heritage.
Of course you don’t have to abjure anything to have a Green Card!!!! It was citizenship that was the point of the post!
Perry,
Boy, am I confused! If you hold an US passport are you not already an US citizen? Since when does the US start handing out passports to non-citizens—most everyone would have one?!? So, what’s with all the green card stuff?
As for dual citizenship, one can have both US and British citizenship. Even naturalized ones! Just because the US makes applicants renounce their previous country’s citizenship does not mean, in fact, that their homeland (Britain) has to acknowledge nor recognize such a renunciation. And besides as it is not done in front of a consular official, who’s gonna know? “Countries usually frame their citizenship laws with little or no regard for the citizenship laws of other countries.” Finally the USA in recent years treats its own naturalization oaths’ renunciatory language as essentially meaningless and takes no steps to enforce it at all.
For more see http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
Alas. the Australia Card was not unconstitutional. What happened was that the legislation to enact it was unenforceable due to be being badly drafted, but was used for the trigger for a double dissolution after being rejected by the senate.However, the unenforceability of the legislation did not become apparent until after the resultant election. Although the ALP did have the numbers to enact the legislation in a resultant joint sitting, iit did not have the numbers in the senate to amend the legislation so that it was enforceable without holding another election, and by that time the prospect of an ID card was so unpopular that the proposal was quietly dropped.
John Howard could enact an ID card next year, as he will have the numbers in both houses of parliament when the new senate takes office on July 1. Fortunately he does remember 1987 (he was opposition leader at the time) and he wouldn’t try to do such a thing, so Australians are not going to be carrying ID cards any time soon, thankfully. But it was as much luck as anything that prevented them from being brought into being in 1987.
(And yes, I am aware that the above makes little sense if you are not familiar with the workings of the Australian constitution, but I have no time to explain it right now).
I would add South Dakota to your list of possible destinations – no state income tax, reasonable gun laws, cooler climate (esp. December-April ;-)), lots of open space, low taxes on business. No really large cities, but that’s not always a bad thing…
Chris Goodman, You give an old man hope! I may not be around to see it so I leave the quiet revolution to you!
I’m all for welcoming freedom fighters to the U.S. However the modern day reality of implemententing a huge database with data from noncompliant people can be observed in Canada (their gun registry) as we speak. It’s over a factor of 500 over budget and still counting.
People just assumed I needed one…
…and that is why I do not in fact need one. British father, American mother.
Indeed about South Dakota, if you live near the Black Hills you’d find that there are no land use or zoning laws either. My wife and I have been contemplating a retirement ranch out there.
About Britain and the ID cards, first thing that jumped into my mind was how it just took a giant leap towards making the whole island a living version of The Prisoner.
As far as huge databases being a collection of data that states don’t do much with right now… I don’t think that is more a barrier of technology than lack of will. Imagine a generation or two of technological advancement and such databases, mixed with advanced GIS applications, get more ominous.
I, for one, will welcome you over here. C’mon by, we will let you protect your property against the common thief and let you spend more of your “hard-earned” as you see fit. Be valuable to a company and all you’ll have to pay is $10 for a doctor’s visit. It ain’t easy though. We STILL need to fight the erosion of civil liberties & the idiocy of the thought police.
As a bonus, the opposite sex will love you for your accent!
All the best to you,
-rob
well, much as I hate to see yet another hunter over here I have to say that, having done the same thing myself for much the same reasons in 1983, I think you made the right decision ……. although you need to remember your point that things are far from perfect here, especially in relation to the Iraq foolishness, the influence of intolerant Christianity and general xenophobia ………… all of which fuel the same drive towards the Total State.
Wow, you have 5 exclamation marks in there…
Further to Chris Goodman’s comments, I am reminded of the story of the English football hooligans on the continent who kept going back for more whenever the police kept breaking them up…
They would retreat but after a while would say: “They can’t do that to us…We’re English!”
I have a feeling that there is going to be a general backlash, in England, in particular, (maybe not in Scotland because they get the benefit of political control for the UK and Scotland) in the next 10-20 years toward all the blatantly statist BS that has accumulated over the past few decades along with the fuzzy reasoning of political correctness and multiculturalism at all costs. As Chris pointed out, people are beginning to murmur. Maybe we are about due for another glorious revolution…Maybe not…One can only hope.
As bad as it gets, I still say it’s better than the continent; mind you, I spent two and a half years in Germany with an APC/riot truck parked outside my house and had to show ID every time I came home [I lived on the same street as the US Consulate], and plain clothes policemen doing weird stuff to the telephone breakout boxes, so that did colour my experiences.
I have actually contemplated moving back to the States myself, but not until the in-laws have passed on, and would never go back to Georgia. Texas sounds attractive from the descriptions…
Us Irish citizens can wander around Britain without an ID card under the proposed legislation. But British subjects will be required to hold an ID card.
Irish citizens do not require a passport to enter the UK.
And the English think we’re stupid?
Bye
As someone who has carried an ID card ior book for most of my life, I have actually found it quite useful. That said, it can be abused, and I do share the concerns of Perry that the personal information now being collected by the incompetents who populate Whitehall and the control freaks who populate Westminster, will, sooner, rather than later be used to determine who you are permitted to work for or with, where you are permitted to go to and so on. That is how this information was used in Communist States and this is now a Communist State in all but name. Blair’s government has centralised power on a scale not seen since Cromwell and the Commonwealth (and he was at least limited by the time it took to convey messages!). The powers conferred on Civil Servants, Local Government Officers and the political denizens of both Town Halls and Westminster are equally unprecedneted. The myth of an Englishman’s home being his “castle” and therefore free from interference by the state is no longer true. Even the much vaunted “Human Rights Act” can only protect you from an official acting beyond his or her powers – and they have taken good care to ensure that the powers have been extended to cover that possibility.
Perry is right. This is no longer a free society, our right to free speech has been removed, our right to privacy has been destroyed, it remains only for Blair to introduce detention without trial. Oh!” He has – but only for non-citizens thus far!
As someone who has carried an ID card ior book for most of my life, I have actually found it quite useful. That said, it can be abused, and I do share the concerns of Perry that the personal information now being collected by the incompetents who populate Whitehall and the control freaks who populate Westminster, will, sooner, rather than later be used to determine who you are permitted to work for or with, where you are permitted to go to and so on. That is how this information was used in Communist States and this is now a Communist State in all but name. Blair’s government has centralised power on a scale not seen since Cromwell and the Commonwealth (and he was at least limited by the time it took to convey messages!). The powers conferred on Civil Servants, Local Government Officers and the political denizens of both Town Halls and Westminster are equally unprecedneted. The myth of an Englishman’s home being his “castle” and therefore free from interference by the state is no longer true. Even the much vaunted “Human Rights Act” can only protect you from an official acting beyond his or her powers – and they have taken good care to ensure that the powers have been extended to cover that possibility.
Perry is right. This is no longer a free society, our right to free speech has been removed, our right to privacy has been destroyed, it remains only for Blair to introduce detention without trial. Oh!” He has – but only for non-citizens thus far!
As someone who has carried an ID card ior book for most of my life, I have actually found it quite useful. That said, it can be abused, and I do share the concerns of Perry that the personal information now being collected by the incompetents who populate Whitehall and the control freaks who populate Westminster, will, sooner, rather than later be used to determine who you are permitted to work for or with, where you are permitted to go to and so on. That is how this information was used in Communist States and this is now a Communist State in all but name. Blair’s government has centralised power on a scale not seen since Cromwell and the Commonwealth (and he was at least limited by the time it took to convey messages!). The powers conferred on Civil Servants, Local Government Officers and the political denizens of both Town Halls and Westminster are equally unprecedneted. The myth of an Englishman’s home being his “castle” and therefore free from interference by the state is no longer true. Even the much vaunted “Human Rights Act” can only protect you from an official acting beyond his or her powers – and they have taken good care to ensure that the powers have been extended to cover that possibility.
Perry is right. This is no longer a free society, our right to free speech has been removed, our right to privacy has been destroyed, it remains only for Blair to introduce detention without trial. Oh!” He has – but only for non-citizens thus far!
Perry,
It can be damned depressing over on this side as well. I don’t know which is worse. Look at this book review from the Washington Post. When WaPo writers start talking about the totalitarian way we raise our young people, you know it’s pretty bad.
It’s easier to get a gun over here. It’s easier to get a drink over there.
Is Britain drugging up it’s high IQ children yet? Claiming they have “Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder?” When they are really just bored out of their minds by bureaucratic schools?
The only thing I find odd about this is that it took you so long to see it coming. I got out in 1978 because of the spineless lack of resistance to encroaching bureaucracy. The US is much better in this regard.
Amazing how a so-called libertarian turns and runs for the safety of the USA at the first sign of trouble. If I had your privilege, finiancial security and position in life I would stand for parliament and do something about Blair and his policies, rather than use the internet to snivel about your breached rights.
From what one can see on samizdata is is plain why Labour wins and both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats spend their time trying to explain their incessant failures to an ever sceptical electorate; nobody has the balls to stand up to Blair except the UKIP, who would welcome someone like you Perry.
Then again, if you don’t have the stomach for a real fight …
First sign? What planet have you been living on? You have only just noticed that civil liberties have been in serious trouble in the country?
Such a revealing word, that… ‘Privilege’. How does having made some money in the past make me ‘privileged’?
I am not living in a squat in Tower Hamlets, that is for sure, but if I was as wealthy as you seem to think I am, I would hardly have pointed out that I have to hope I can speed up my business affairs so I can afford to move to the USA…
And of EVER there was a waste of time, me standing for Parliament is it. For a start, I am far too uncompromising to be a professional politician. Secondly the notion that the sort of values I espouse are sufficiently mainstream to win electoral office is preposterous. I can just see the look on a party selector’s face when I explain how I want to shut down the state owned media (such as the BBC), privatise all healthcare, shut the Bank of England and remove the state’s monopoly of currency, allow people to carry guns to defend themselves, reduce ‘welfare’ payments to levels that prevent starvation but nothing more than that, pretty much remove all immigration barriers, etc, etc…
It is manifestly clear from poll after opinion poll, not to mention just talking to people, that the great majority of folks in Britain have no problem with populist authoritarianism and really do not give a damn about civil liberties. Sure, I wish the UKIP well and I think it has some value, namely it has within its power to destroy the Conservative party as it currently exists, and maybe thereby create a genuine and useful opposition to regulatory statism. I am not holding my breath though.
I have been fighting for a long time so to use the vernacular, screw you buddy, I have done my bit. But I know when it is time to go and find a better bit of ground to fight over. Feel free to stay in the bunker once you have been tagged and bar-coded and a camera has been installed outside your house, and sure, feel free to order your tiny band of supporters to counter attack in election day… good luck and god speed in fact and I am not being sarcastic… but me, I am taking the last flight out and looking for a pocket of resistance that actually has a chance of achieving something in this lifetime.
..or instead of the US of A why not try what in theory might read as one of the most authoritarian setups in Europe but in practice is IMHO a far more liberal society than Engerlund………Italy. Key to the sucess being that the State is run by and for Italians. They administrate like they drive, for anyone that has ever been to Rome, by the way.
Why get stuck on one country? You can lie on a beach all year long and run your affairs remotely.
If you are really smart you will investigate the concept of being a “Perpetual Traveller” i.e. not being a permanent resident of ANY country.
Here’s a good place to start – Sovereign Society
When it becomes economically viable, I too may “go on strike”.
Perry,
Fully understandable. Watch me follow if, as expected, they sign up for the European Constitution.
How about setting up an underground railroad for disillusioned libertarians from the UK to *better* parts of the world?
Philip
Methinks the British Revolution should be at hand. Dunno what to do now. What with Euthanasia in the Netherlands, and now the British having their ‘National ID’, what now? Either the end days are upon us already, or dark days loom ahead. It may be stopped, but more and more I fear nothing short of armegeddon and the apocalypse could reverse this.
So…. how long until the freedom house puts Great Britain in the ‘Partially free’ column…. or the ‘Not Free’ column. IT’s happened in Russia I’m afraid.
God save the people of UK. God speed.
I made the same decision in 1977, got out in 1980. Saw all this coming, because quite simply in the US there is real concern about the rights of the individual, and real legal sanctions for trampling on those rights even if you are a government official. I decided those were the only kinds of rights I was interested in having, everything else just means being tolerated for a while by your masters.
25 years on, life in California has been very, very good to me. One thing you can know for sure every day you wake up is that if the US ever loses its freedom a very large proportion of us will go out fighting, which is a very different backdrop from the dreary long drawn out suicide Europe seems bent on pursuing.
Thanks alot, this gave me a wonderful laugh. Keep thinking these things and maybe it will come true 😀
What on earth has happened to the warrior race that gave it’s language to the world? Way too much government sponsored security, I would guess. Welfare always makes a body lazy.
Georgia, by the way, would be a lovely place to settle as well as any of the other locales mentioned above. Look me up and we can go and shop for your first gun together when you get here.
For those that left the UK neglecting to obtain an “account closed” status document from their local council or the Inland Revenue, please be advised as follows: HM Customs and Excise and Inland Revenue are now the same organisation. Obviously you didn’t leave a forwarding address when you flew the coop, but even so LHR is perhaps not the best point of entry. Assuming you have to make a quick return visit, try a local airport or better yet Dover. As Osman Hussein showed, Dover Customs aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer. So if you do have to give your address, be sure it’s Apartment 13 of 12-flat building. Getting some name cards with a printing error may be worthwhile. You’ll be glad to know that in the more run-down parts of Asia, a cash payment will secure a six-month visa through “unofficial channels”. So unless the British Embassy refuse to renew your passport you’re home free. Try Kathmandu for a non-computer readable passport. Paranoid? You bet I am. It keeps you alive and it keeps you free.
For those that left the UK neglecting to obtain an “account closed” status document from their local council or the Inland Revenue, please be advised as follows: HM Customs and Excise and Inland Revenue are now the same organisation. Obviously you didn’t leave a forwarding address when you flew the coop, but even so LHR is perhaps not the best point of entry. Assuming you have to make a quick return visit, try a local airport or better yet Dover. As Osman Hussein showed, Dover Customs aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer. So if you do have to give your address, be sure it’s Apartment 13 of 12-flat building. Getting some name cards with a printing error may be worthwhile. You’ll be glad to know that in the more run-down parts of Asia, a cash payment will secure a six-month visa through “unofficial channels”. So unless the British Embassy refuse to renew your passport you’re home free. Try Kathmandu for a non-computer readable passport. Paranoid? You bet I am. It keeps you alive and it keeps you free.
Before you read on, i am of mixed race, English/Jewish mix. I’ve always been proud to be living here in the United Kingdom, i fly the Union flag & the flag of England ( The George Cross) on my person, i also have them on display in my home. I beleive in an old saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Personaly i think our government is doing the millions of people who died for this country a massive in justice, those people died to keep the values of this great country alive. I bet they are turning in their graves to see our government throwing away it’s heritage and history just because people who come here to live don’t like our customs and way of life. If imagrants find the customs and flags of this country offencive, why the hell come here in the first place ? I say to those who find our way of life offencive, we also have another freedom here in the UK, if you dont like something we do, you have the freedom to LEAVE. Offencivness works both ways, i find it offencive when i see my countries identity being stripped away because visitors and imagrents dont like our customs, if you dont like it, dont come here, simple enough. I say,,, long live the great british bacon butty, long live piggy banks and piggy ornaments and toys, long live the monachy, long live the flag of England and that of the United Kingdom, Long live chrismas day and holliday, long live the right to say what we like in our own country. LONG LIVE THE UNITED KINGDOM