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No ID card? Hand over £2,500 then! I look forward to Blair apologists spinning this unsurprising revelation.
Town hall bureaucrats are to be given sweeping new powers to investigate homes for identity card evasion and to impose heavy fines on occupants found without one. The revelation, in an obscure Whitehall consultation paper, calls into serious doubt the Government’s repeated promises that planned ID cards, already hugely controversial, will be voluntary and that no one will be forced to carry one.
But we should trust the government because… well, just because.
At least the Telegraph is putting out bloggy articles like this one in opposition. I wonder, is the rest of the Fourth Estate going to sleep through this?
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Since what percentage of them are in favour of ID cards, the answer is ‘most probably, yes’!
The tabloids will get it though – thank God for Murdoch 🙂
Nobody who’s been paying attention thinks the system will be voluntary. People have persisted in believing this despite the Government’s repeated promises that it will be compulsory, because they would like to believe the misleading language used by the Home Office. It is distressing that the list of those who haven’t been paying attention still includes much of the media and much of parliament. (Though not The Telegraph.)
The Government hasn’t lied on this, though it has diligently allowed people to confuse themselves about what “compulsory” might mean.
The real news in this story is twofold. (1) Hitherto the Government has failed to answer questions aimed at the DCA… sorry, dca… about its plans for using the system. And (2) Andy Burnham MP told a briefing meeting in the Lords before Christmas that organisations outside the Home Office–including local authorities–would choose themselves on the basis of individual “business cases” whether to become involved in the scheme.
So either Mr Burnham was lying to peers, or he is not being fully informed about the deeper strategy of the system. That the dca is involved suggests how this is intended to be a profound constitutional change.
To clarify something, John Lettice covered the CORE proposals here in The Register. Those who have followed this will notice the similarity to the PM’s enthusiasm for centralised electronic voter registration for well over a year.
It is the idea that electoral registration will be used to police the ID system on a farmed basis that is the new point in the Torygraph report. “No vote if we can’t track and aggregate you,” has been on the menu for a while and connects back to the new kind of freedom–under which voting will probably be compulsory.
This comment by Phil Booth on the NO2ID forums is valuable, so I reproduce it for a broader readership:
I think it is time more people looked to their heritage. Considering I was born in Northern Ireland, I can quite easily get an Irish passport. Therefore de facto claiming Irish citizenship.
And surely through the nefarious EU, and right to work where I want therein (heheheh, like that is true) I can still live here in the UK and refuse an ID card. Or is my thinking on that wrong?
Maybe I’m just not suspicious enough, but I’m not sure the consultation paper really proposes what the Telegraph says it does. The Telegraph says that “town hall officials will be asked to police the scheme by using the Electoral Register to identify homes and individuals without cards”, but it seems to me to be the other way round, with info from any ID card database being potentially used to inform the Electoral Register.
The other Telegraph article says that their first piece reveals the ‘true intentions’ of the Government: “local authorities will be empowered to fine anyone – and as much as £2,500 – who fails to register with the ID data base, or fails to keep their details up to date”. I don’t know where they’re getting that, but it doesn’t seem to be from the consultation paper.
I’m dead against ID cards, so if this issue helps to sink them all well and good I suppose. I just know from experience that the Telegraph has no problem printing bare-faced lies based on Tory press releases about consultation papers neither the journalists nor the politicians have read.
Heard the one about the Englishman and the Irishman asked for their ID crds?
The Irishman said he had travelled across the Irish sea legally and without a passport, and as a foreign citizen was not required to carry an ID cards.
The Englishman was arrested.
Practise your Dublin accents chaps…
As it’s linked to your passport, you can only escape until your passport comes up for renewal.
I resisted giving up my British citizenship for the years I lived in the US, although it would have been very easy. That option isn’t open to me any more because I let my green card lapse when it looked like I wouldn’t be going back to the US to live.
Now it looks as though I am going to have to study Mexican history and get more serious about learning the language.
Christ, how can we address this issue properly before it’s too late? Time really is of the essence on this one, in my opinion. I’d really like to know how we can start to mobilise the opposition to this agenda, because I can’t see that keeping it to a few blogs and political pundit sites is going to get us too far (kudos to those, including Perry, for getting the issue off the ground, of course!). As somebody mentioned in a previous comments section, we need to change cultural perceptions. What I want to know is ‘how’? It seems we need to fight this on the same popularist grounds that the ID card advocates already hold.
Who can mobilise this? Who can bring it to the fore? How can it be done? Do we need a focal point for our opposition? Going back to the popularist point, do we need people who are known and trusted to the idolatry public who, generally, seem to back this agenda (Cameron seems to have taken this approach with poverty)? Basically, what can we do to change the cultural perception of ID cards without being passed off as a bunch of ‘civil libs loons’ (as I fear that is how we are seen, particularly in this post 7th July environment)?
As for your point about Irish citizenship Stray Toaster, I’ve already looked into this, as I have a right to Irish citizenship too (handy thing, as well!).
It would seem that you would be required to be in the UK for less than a six month continuous period for any foreign citizen to not have to have an ID card (so basically, pop across the sea, get some sort of proof of being out of the country and then come back).
Quite how this works for those of us who have a right to dual citizenship, I don’t know. It might mean having to renounce British citizenship (which I am loathe to do because of the antics of some idiot and his manifesto). I will endeavour to look into this further.
Stray Toaster,
And surely through the nefarious EU, and right to work where I want therein (heheheh, like that is true) I can still live here in the UK and refuse an ID card. Or is my thinking on that wrong?
No. EU/EEA citizens in general will be numbered and registered like anyone else if they stay more than 3 months. The reason for the 3 month requirement appears to be a part of the free movement provisions of EU law (it’s not all bad, you know) that prevents EU citizens being required to register their residence in another member state unless they stay there more than 3 months.
The situation for the Irish is different. Irish citizens have rights of free movement and settlement in the UK dating from before the independence of the republic, and enshrined in constitutional arrangements. To deny them those rights would mean unpicking the treaty that founds the relationship between the UK and Ireland. The Government has been questioned on this point in both Houses, but has so far evaded giving an answer.
Perhaps it (and perhaps America) is leaning on the Irish government to adopt an ID card system of its own, which it appears to be drifting towards and could be merged with a UK/EU one. Or perhaps, there is an assumption that the Irish government will give way on forced registration on the British mainland as a quid pro quo for not imposing it so completely in Northern Ireland, so the treaty can be bent. Anyone’s guess.
James,
Basically, what can we do to change the cultural perception of ID cards without being passed off as a bunch of ‘civil libs loons’ (as I fear that is how we are seen, particularly in this post 7th July environment)?
We at NO2ID are doing what we can, and have made some serious impression on the debate so far, but we need funds for publicity and, more important, people willing to get their hands dirty and help. Volunteers to do simple boring things with any degree of competence, or more substantial things with much consistency are hard to find.
Clearly Guy’s looked into this a lot more than I have! 🙂
Would you know where that leaves those of us with dual citizenship rights, Guy?
Guy,
I’d like to think I’ve at least made a small start by contributing what I can to NO2ID’s funds and writing to my policy-tethered Blairite MP (who spun back what I can only believe was a letter authored by NuLabour HQ).
I’m really interested to know how I can be of more use, but am not too certain about getting attached to an organisation which has elements such as RESPECT attached to it (in a supportive stance, anyway). I just think that if that sort of thing is picked up on by the general public, the effort and cause will be thoroughly undermined. I’m not suggesting NO2ID is partisan in any way, but I’m just wondering if it would perhaps make sense to garner the support of well-known non-partisan and mainstream organisations first?
On that note, what efforts have there been to foster support from Microsoft, who we know have recently made vocal their concerns about registration systems and ID cards? I understand that their relationship with the government means it could be a political minefield, but I’d have thought they’re in more of a position to be pulling the strings of government.
Forgive me if my ideas sound a bit crass or half-baked, but I’m quite new to politics, libertarianism and things around here in general 🙂
James – Guy Herbert has been a warrior at the forefront of this battle since the idea was first mooted.
His organisation has not yet gotten publicity in the national press. Any Samizdata commentator in the press or in public relations might like to help out. So far Blair and his cohorts are being cut an inexcusable length of slack.
Guy, is this bill for the whole of the United Kingdom? If so, surely The Scotsman would have something to say about it? They might like to know about No2ID.
Verity,
I seem to remember reading an article on a forum (I think) from a Scottish resident who wrote to their Labour MP asking how ID cards would affect Scotland. To the best of my knowledge (this was some time ago) the reply was that the proposal for the eventual compulsory ID card would only affect England and Wales. Clearly, this conflicted with one of their ministerial colleagues statements that the bill was to cover the United Kingdom!
So there seems to be some very definite confusion amongst our MPs as to what is being put forward.
Perhaps if the proposals were clarified somewhat- even simplified for them- then support for their opposition could be increased?
I don’t have any tattoos, but if this National ID card foolishness ever makes it over here, I’ll be getting one of my ID number, placed just where it was for the 1940s-era Jewry. Maybe a bar code, just to keep it modern.
And then I’ll burn both my ID card and my passport. On the steps of the Capitol in Washington DC.
Kim, always the soul of moderation.
James, yesterday we had the news that Microsoft closed down a Chinese blog at the behest of the Chinese government. I don’t think Microsoft is in the business of helping citizenries fight their governments.
I’m sure Guy Herbert has already thought of this, but I’ll throw it into the pot anyway: It might be worth trawling through the regional press to find some conservative editors who might be interested in the issue and spin it locally.
Have you thought about trying to get, say, German coverage? Or French coverage? British papers trawl through German and French newspapers and news agencies, and if an item about Britain appears in foreign media, it might appear to have some extra legs. I don’t know. AFP might be a good bet. They all subscribe to AFP and obviously they have a London bureau. (Forget al-Reuters.)
I’m with Kim on this one.
I will not have an indentity card. I refuse. End of the matter.
If the scum of the council attempt to break into my house to ‘check up’ on identity cards for the occupants, I will use whatever force is in my power to prevent it.
If the scum of the council attempt to force entry to my house for the purpose of ‘council tax revaluation’, I will use whatever force is in my power to prevent it.
Anyone know how I go about getting a shotgun licence? Apparently defence against crime is not a reason for having a firearm. Is defence against the forces of ‘law and order’ a sufficient reason?
Verity,
I understand Microsoft’s position on China, however China is not yet a market it has mastered or even leveraged, I would have thought.
That a Microsoft exec even made a statement of that kind surely signifies that it is willing to embolden its standing on the matter?
Isn’t the worst that could happen simply a case of them saying ‘no’ to any request for support of some kind?
Are there any other well-known businesses making their views known on this matter? I would be interested to know!
Sorry, Chaps,
There was an error in the previous post. For ‘shotgun licence’ read ‘shotgun’.
Yes indeedy Brian,
Forget the licence.
Guns are freely available if you know where to look.
Alas you will have to deal with criminals, but the prices are very reasonable. They will even store your weapon for you until needed.
The way to stop this ludicrous mission creep of the government to know everything we do and where we do it is to shout the facts over and over.
The facts are:-
1. they wont work, and will hold false and misleading information.
2,They wont stop terrorism because the 7/7 guys would have had a completely valid one. ( the only reason the police had a good handle on those assholes was because the bus bombers mum ran the hotline to post him missing, little knowing why).
3. People are stupid and forgetful. They either wont carry them or fuck them up in some way.I will drop anything like an ID card, forced on me, into a strong hot cup of tea and see how it functions after that .
4. The government are running this. Ever seen any IT technology that the govt has got right yet? We are on several Billion and counting… and still nothing works , from the CPA to the DVLA.
5. There is no five. that’s perfectly enough to be going on with.
Verity,
We have got quite a lot of press coverage, considering. And the Scotsman does know about us. Most of the press now come to us for comment. But getting large amounts of notice is another thing. The general public is not interested. Too abstract. Too complicated. So those in the press who do get it, have difficulty finding space fpr the stories.
We are a minnow in the multibillion pound PR ocean. (The Home Office at last count had 36 press officers.) And our people are volunteers giving their spare time. Had we the sort of funds the government has to push the scheme (or even 1% of those funds), we would be everywhere.
Verity, James,
It is a UK Bill. There are definitely Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish issues. We were involved in getting motions through the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly, rejecting use of ID cards for devolved functions. The Executives of those countries subsequently decided they wanted a parallel system of “entitlement cards” for such services.
James,
NO2ID is utterly non-partisan. I never thought I’d be working amicably with the SWP either, but if Dominic Grieve QC MP can appear on the same platform as George Galloway for us, and both give brilliant performances, as happened in June, then I’m not knocking it. My NO2ID Christmas card list included Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams, Arthur Scargill and Norman Tebbitt, the Iqbal Sacranie and Peter Tatchell, the Freedom Association and the Socialist Campaign Group MPs, all of whom are on the same side of this one.
Everyone,
What’s terrifying here is that the governmental juggernaut keeps rolling, despite the fact that anyone who has stopped to think, who is not part of New Labour, the police, the Senior Civil Service, or the coterie of fawning IT contractors, is against it. Throughout the process, the Home Office has not changed its mind significantly nor deigned to explain itself properly. Government backbench MPS have been mislead and manipulated. It has been a case study in the elective dictatorship.
Thank you, Guy. Of course, I knew that you send out press releases and so on, and I know how difficult it is to get a press release noticed. And then, of course, broadcasting is mainly under the iron fist of the statist BBC, they of the “licence fee evasion” inspectors, so you will get zero airtime.
I can see that most people would be against the plan, but not violently against it. Britain has been denuded of its pride in itself and its free history by the revisionists and their patron, Blair and his one-worlder cohorts. And after all, “our European partners” all have ID cards and they’re not rioting in the streets. Errr … well, not about ID cards, anyway. People think twice before saying they’re proud to be British, in case it contravenes some hate crime directive. They’ve been desensitised and they’ve stopped caring.
I wish you well with this campaign because the plan is absolutely horrible. But to most people, I fear, it will be just another number, like their driver’s licence, passport, social security, credit cards. Nothing to worry about. They’re too lazy to understand the implications.
Verity,
And then, of course, broadcasting is mainly under the iron fist of the statist BBC, they of the “licence fee evasion” inspectors, so you will get zero airtime.
The BBC has an idiosyncratic culture, and is since Hutton notably cowed in the face of authority, but it really isn’t a branch of the Government, you know. We get airtime quite frequently. I’ve lost count of the number of radio interviews I’ve done, and I’m just a pinch hitter… The majority of them have been for the Beeb. It is not a very telegenic story, but we have been on broadcast news packages, too.
Jim writes:
The other Telegraph article says that their first piece reveals the ‘true intentions’ of the Government: “local authorities will be empowered to fine anyone – and as much as £2,500 – who fails to register with the ID data base, or fails to keep their details up to date”. I don’t know where they’re getting that, but it doesn’t seem to be from the consultation paper.
I realise this doesn’t fully address your question here, but Section 6 of the Identity Cards Bill enables the Home Secretary to require registration, on pain on a fine of upto £2,500 pounds for each failure to register, which is presumably where they get the figure from.
I completely understand that NO2ID aims for a non-partisan approach to this, which is entirely agreeable. Again, I think it comes down to perception.
I think we really need to knuckle the argument down to a few simplistic points for most people. We live in an age where everything is whittled down to, in my opinion, convenience and value for money- that is, if people even give a toss. Once government wins the convenience and value for money argument, I don’t think there’s much left for us to win on, which is why I think it is an absolute must that we take the argument to the general public, inform them why it won’t be convenient and good value for money, as well as what they will eventually lose out on. Essentially, explain the practical implications and not necessarily focus on the principled argument.
Does that sound reasonable?
As for the BBC, I know I’m probably going to be shot down in flames for this, but certainly at a local and regional level, I think they do a fantastic effort of really looking for issues and discussion that can engage the public. They certainly do a far better job of this than ANY other broadcaster in the UK, without doubt.
At a national level, yes, they have issues that need addressing, but I think it’s entirely unwise to completely dismiss the whole organism for the faults of one of its organs.
Guy – I didn’t know you’d had air time and that cheers me up! What has the response been after you’ve been on the air? Have people tried to contact you? Has it spurred people to sign up?
It would seem that this could be perceived by councils as a nice little earner,like parking fines,similarly the police scam on speeding.
The best way to fight this is to call it a Poll Tax,disseminating this point to the same constituency which rioted under Margaret Thatcher.
BTW,How many social groups will be given a pass by councils,on the grounds that it is insensitive or dangerous to investigate?
Ron Brick, you put forward two interesting points. Labelling it a poll tax, in some invidious way but I’m sure it could be done, would be an excellent idea. A poll tax to prove you are a citizen, for example. Not fair.
And yes, of course, entire groups will be given a pass. Some groups may suddenly discover it’s against their religion to register, for example, and therefore the law wouldn’t apply in their case.
I would suggest that a new church be formed instanter which forbids registration of personal details because these should be known only to god.
Your system is seriously broken, guys, and it’s going to need a major overhaul before things get better. I’d think you should start giving serious consideration to having a revolution — armed, if necessary — because it seems quite certain to this Yank that your political classes will pay no attention whatsoever to anything less.
Sorry folks, but I’m not going to debrief Samizdata readers on every aspect of NO2ID’s activities and rehearse strategies. I’ve been working on it 3-4 days a week for a year. There’s too much to tell, and this is an inefficient forum to tell it in. But yes, we are tackling practicalities as well as principles.
It is a massively difficult task to deflect the government machine engaged in pressing forward a key Prime Ministerial and Civil Service priority. Even getting attention for what are to most people novel, and far too abstract, ideas couched in obscure legislation, designed to be rolled out over 10 years is not easy.
Most of the general public on our own side do not understand it. They are objecting to relatively innocuous continental-style freestanding ID cards, not conscious of the plan for a National Identity Register connecting all state and most private records about you and providing an audit trail of your every civic transaction.
If you want to help, join and volunteer. Short of really significant money, which we don’t have the capacity to put into action immediately, the real need is for people with initiative and intelligence who will do things and take some responsibility for them. If you have something to offer, you can email me at general.secretary@no2id.net
Verity,
The Telegraph: Blunkett has found Labour’s poll tax
Michael Portillo: ID cards are to Blair what poll tax was to Thatcher
And, originally, our T-shirt
Have all pushed this theme. The meme has even appeared in BBC reports–for example (Mark Oaten quote at end). Regardless of your imagined version of the institution, BBC Home Affairs and Westminster journalists do understand and sympathise.
But it has yet to achieve traction in the Labour movement, which is the key target audience for it.
Lack of care of data privacy isn’t just the preserve of Government…
Risk of ID theft bonanza as thousands of credit card slips found dumped in skip
I fully intend to sign up to an ID card at the very first opportunity. In fact, so enthusiastic am I that I intend to apply for a couple of dozen, all with different names and addresses.
Anybody care to join me?
Guy Herbert,
You are really being too gentlemanly about this,take a leaf out of the playbook of the revolutionary left,create myths,fear and loathing,lie if you have to.
This will be a tax on the poor,what people spend their money on will be there for some council worker to read,council workers will have the right to enter a persons house night or day to check identities,just like the Gestapo or the Stasi.
The cards will only apply to the British,al Qaeda,the IRA will be excused cards.
You never know as a bonus this issue might see Tony on his way out.
Ron,
To a first approximation all the above will be true. What do you suggest I make up?
Jason,
There is the very tiresome matter of the security interview and documentary submissions on each occasion. I hope you have as much time to waste as the agency clerks.
Guy Herbert – Just a thought – and one you may already have had yourself – but have you thought of Zak Goldsmith? His father started the Referendum Party after all.
The other candidate for some funding is that chap in the north who was a large donor to the UKIP until they did something that displeased him. I want to say Paul Williams, but I don’t think that’s quite right. He is a self-made millionaire and seems to have the right instincts.
Given this latest issue at a local administration level and having looked at the organisations already backing the NO2ID campaign, would it be an idea to approach those involved with councils (ie, councillors) and ask them to represent the issue at large and to also clarify the respective position of that administration?
If this is a case of creating awareness at the implementation level and making positions known, surely engaging councils will be a fundamental necessity on our behalf?
Anyway, I have other questions:
Why is there not a forum on this site? It seems one would be incredibly useful. I’m sure it’s been asked before and there’s a readily-thought reason for there not being so, but I’d still like to know, particularly because I’d like to see the response to the following question/ comment:
Following on from previous articles on here and being inspired by a cartoon in the latest Private Eye, what sort of response does everybody think would be drawn from a ‘pro-Blair, pro-Iraq war, pro-NuLabour’ type of demonstration in Whitehall? Obviously nothing disruptive, but just a handful of people with placards, at the side of the pavement. Would it be a goer? Would it be a worthy exercise of the government’s response?
Guy Herbert,
That the Prime Minister and the Cabinet will not have to have cards,and if they do they will be fake with no back up in the data base.
That this will kill adultery stone dead,gone will be the dirty weekend.
A personal favourite, that the magnetism in the cards causes impotence in men.
Retinal scans have gone wrong and can cause blindness.
The government can extract taxes via the card.
Having to expose their faces is an insult to Muslim women.
This won’t be won farly,it will be won by the exploitation of fear.
I think the “retinal scans can malfunction and cause temporary loss of sight” would be a good one to harp on, because the government would instantly deny it. Given this government’s record for mendacity, that they denied it would be taken as proof and people would refuse on that basis.
But I also like the one about the government being able to withdraw taxes via the card. Again, the government would instantly deny it, causing everyone to believe it and refuse.
It wouldn’t hurt to get some unattributable rumours circulating.
Verity,
Yes,these rumours are for the street,no need for NO2ID to endorse them.
There are tribes who believe that cameras steal the soul,may as well chuck that one in as well.
Might as well point out that prior to this, one had to be accused of some crime or other,now we are all criminals.
Ron – No2ID is a serious lobbying organisation and I don’t think we should be contributing guerrilla thoughts on it. There may be somewhere else, and if you find a spot, let me know as I have thoughts of my own.
But this isn’t the place.
“now we are all criminals” (R. Brick)
How naive libertarians are.
We’ve been criminals since the racial laws (Rassengesetze) of 1965 declared that all whites are racist.
& since 1975 when the “gender equality”(Geschlechtsgleichstellung?) law declared that all men are criminals conspiring against women.
‘Karl Rove’. We are not all white and male, so only now are we all equal before the law… i.e. criminals.
Karl Baby,
You have enough on your plate with the Democrats. Your German descrees did not require compulsory fingerprinting or any of the other biometric information without the accusation of a crime and involvement with the police,the new ID does.
I posted a long response to this, but the website ate it…
Anyway, ID cards are a waste of time. They are a step towards a police state that Hitler would have been proud of – there would be far fewer Germans about if he had been able to give a name and address for every last Jew, Gypsy, Black, Arab, etc. with a complete family history, and a handy locator system to track them down if they escaped the net…
Coming soon, a stunner built into the cards, so that should a computer somewhere detect a crime too serious for the funds remaining in your Government monitored bank account to cover, you can be simply and easily immobilised, killed or just more throughly controlled.
I posted a long response to this, but the website ate it… Damn, it ate this one too, but I copied it first. Fix this site!
Anyway, ID cards are a waste of time. They are a step towards a police state that Hitler would have been proud of – there would be far fewer Germans about if he had been able to give a name and address for every last Jew, Gypsy, Black, Arab, etc. with a complete family history, and a handy locator system to track them down if they escaped the net…
Coming soon, a stunner built into the cards, so that should a computer somewhere detect a crime too serious for the funds remaining in your Government monitored bank account to cover, you can be simply and easily immobilised, killed or just more throughly controlled.
I posted a long response to this, but the website ate it… Damn, it ate this one too, but I copied it first. Fix this site!
Anyway, ID cards are a waste of time. They are a step towards a police state that Hitler would have been proud of – there would be far fewer Germans about if he had been able to give a name and address for every last Jew, Gypsy, Black, Arab, etc. with a complete family history, and a handy locator system to track them down if they escaped the net…
Coming soon, a stunner built into the cards, so that should a computer somewhere detect a crime too serious for the funds remaining in your Government monitored bank account to cover, you can be simply and easily immobilised, killed or just more throughly controlled.
I posted a long response to this, but the website ate it… Damn, it ate this one too, but I copied it first. Fix this site! What is with this site? I posted fine on another thread, but this one is out to get me!
Anyway, ID cards are a waste of time. They are a step towards a police state that Hitler would have been proud of – there would be far fewer Germans about if he had been able to give a name and address for every last Jew, Gypsy, Black, Arab, etc. with a complete family history, and a handy locator system to track them down if they escaped the net…
Coming soon, a stunner built into the cards, so that should a computer somewhere detect a crime too serious for the funds remaining in your Government monitored bank account to cover, you can be simply and easily immobilised, killed or just more throughly controlled.