Russell Whitaker sorts the sad facts from the ideological drivel regarding the much deprecated SA80 rifle
In an article typical of London’s The Guardian newspaper – noxiously socialist but sometimes well-researched – I read a sad account of the SA80 British infantry carbine.
In typical socialist fashion, James Meek takes potshots at privatization, in the context of its involvement in the debacle, speaking to the sorry state of the government-owned Royal Ordnance facility of the once-venerable Enfield:
Thanks to privatisation, the atmosphere in the factory was a poisonous mix of bitterness, anger and apathy. Workers who thought that they had a job for life felt betrayed by a government which, many had believed, was both patriotic and pro-military.
I’d argue that the expectation of a “job for life” was part of the cause of quality problems with the weapon, but that point has been set to rest by its evident failures in societies ranging from communist Russia to corporatist Japan.
What’s especially interesting is the passing mention of the involvement of Germany’s Heckler & Koch (H&K to us gunnies) in helping to fix the bloody mess:
In 1985, the German gunmakers Heckler & Koch, who had been asked to do some sub-contracting work on training ammunition, were sent two of the new rifles. Shortly after the consignment arrived, the officer who had sent them got a phone call. The voice at the other end said he was calling about the British rifle. He said: “You know it goes off when you drop it?” The officer admitted that he didn’t. He fetched a gun from the armoury and dropped it. It went off. German experts had discovered a dangerous safety flaw in a British rifle which, after supposedly exhaustive testing and acceptance into service, the Brits themselves had failed to find.
and:
Those who have used it say the new version of the gun, redesigned by Heckler & Koch, is better, but complaints still came in when it was used in Afghanistan. Confidence, rather than reliability, may now be the real problem.
I’ve spoken to acquaintances who’ve had to carry the SA80, and a very close friend formerly of the U.S. Army Special Forces, who confirm that in very recent times, the SA80, in its A2 incarnation, has evolved into an adequate infantry carbine. It’s worth noting in some of Parliament’s own notes of 2000, H&K UK Ltd (also mentioned in MoD/DLO SA80 Individual Weapon (IW) & Light Support Weapon (LSW) Modification Programme notes) has taken over from Royal Ordnance as the Design Authority for the weapon.
Mr. Meeks should admit that the only way to salvage the soiled reputation of the SA80 is complete privatization, ruthless outside testing combined with an intense feedback loop involving design & manufacturing… and years of unavoidable wait & see, with British squaddies acting as hapless test dummies.
In the meantime, variants of the privately-produced (usually by Colt and Bushmaster) U.S. M-16 (e.g. the M4A1) will continue as the choice of the SAS, not surprising given the “2nd culture” nature of most special forces units worldwide: spec ops guys, within limits, generally get their choice of personal weapons.
Russell Whitaker
I was on active duty in the USMC from 1977 through 1980 and I could (did) hit a man sized target at 500 meters in the prone position with an M16-A1. Rifle expert.
Hi Randy.
Interesting point, and well understood by those of us who know guns… but you’re responding to the wrong thread.
This thread is about the SA80, not the DC sniper.
DVC,
Russell
What is the guy in the photo doing with an Uzi ?
Um, Jacob, that’s the author (me).
Russell
What do you gun guys think of the new Israeli Tavor assault rifle?
Ronnie: do you mean the Tavor-2, with all the questionable bells & whistles, or the current 4 bullpup models?
I admit to not having heard of it, but am doing some reading on it. I’m not a great fan of bullpup carbines, but I’m willing to keep an open opinion on the matter… until some kind person lets me shoot one! 🙂
Interesting history of the SA-80
So many problems- mostly blamed on others… Makes a great allegory for understanding some of Britain’s other woes.
Still, it’s worth reading… despite the obvious anti-capitalist, anti-privatization/pro-socialist bent. It’s pretty apparent (to me, anyway) the greatest failure occurs within the British system. The author’s oblivious contempt for all things un-British, evidently still bitter about the demise of the British Empire, blinds him from recognizing any root cause evidence regarding what ails the two.
Disdain for the SLR (still one of THE best battle rifles around, regardless of metric vs. “inch” configuration. I believe you will find it still has a place in the SAS armory, by the way.) – solely because it wasn’t designed by “British Experts”; fixation on Britain’s subordination of caliber specification to the Americans; failure to question why so many other designs (some close to thirty years older), using similar manufacturing processes were successful, while those of this particular program continue to be fraught with problems; failure to question why the Sterling made (and incredibly well designed) AR-18’s performance was/is exemplary (albeit a bit more expensive to produce, I believe) by comparison – all telling…
(You get the picture…)
While not a big fan of HK in general, the German team’s immediate response upon receipt and testing brought a grin… Nice to see old MP-38 lessons learned were not forgotten…
The A2 correlation comes to mind as I write this. However, I don’t address it for two reasons: I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the A2 frame is cast, not stamped; I believe the inherent problems of one program are not necessarily attributable to the other…
While there are many bureaucratic similarities, I still think, primarily because of it’s free market orientation, the American mindset tends to be more capable of, and more suited to, innovating solutions.
JR,
I think you have single-handedly managed to explain why the rest of the world think that a sizable proportion of Americans are tits.
Why do you feel that it’s so important to state how great capitalism is?
What exactly do you have to prove?
We know all about you, does the ‘American mindset’ let other countries do their own thing regardless of whether it fits in with their morals or economic sensibilities?
Not much wonder America is fast becoming a dirty word overseas.
Well ‘Scooter’, it reveals more about you than you probably intended when you say ‘America is fast becoming a dirty word overseas’. I am a Brit and I find that remark ludicrous. Did you not see the resent MORI poll in Britain (last week, for Christ sake) showing Brits are better disposed towards Americans that at ANY time since these poll were taken (since the 1970’s).
I agree that JR is a bit full of himself on the cultural issue and he seems to overlook the vast amount of PRIVATE SECTOR innovation that comes out of Britain, but you, sir, are factually incorrect if you think most Brits agree that ‘America is fast becoming a dirty word’. According to MORI 81 percent of Brits think you are talking out of your arse.
Sorry, since when was I taking about Britain? There’s a bit more to “overseas” than Britain isn’t there? I expect if MORI or an equivelant organisation conducted a similar poll accross the rest of the EU, you’d possibly come up with a slightly different result.
But I’ll let you go and feverishly check up whether this is true or not, Mr. Mosquito!
And for what it’s worth, I was quite sad to see the SLR go, but I can honestly say I like the SA80. My only problem with it is it’s bit bloody heavy for a personal weapon.
lets face it the L85 A1 is crap i dont like to have to stamp on the cocking handel of a life LSW (which i did on a number of times) to get the bolt to go back on a live fire ex. cus the locking lugs wont turn back around. yes its partly down to the goverment and the rest is down to enfield and Royal Ordnance in any other army it would never of got to the bases (saying that i do remember alot of stick was given to the m16 when that came out in the 60’s like the stock falling of and the AK47 stock snapping and it costing to much to make hence the AKM) i could go on. all the best weapons in the world where pritty crap at first. but i fink the L85 A1 will allways be crap due to an unfixable design
The L85 A2 is not a heavy weapon. It is well balanced and the earlier flaw of cocking has been replaced with a two finger grip. I’d like to compare it to an M16 but I aint handled one.
I am a member of the Territorial Army in the UK amd also a member of my unit’s shooting team. We use the L85A1 and it is a very good weapon as long as it is cleaned properly, the only real fault is the cocking handle , which sometimes sends empty cases back into the ejection port causing jams, which are rare.In the field or on the range I have not experienced any problems, so what you hear in the press about this rifle is grossely exagerated.
I am a member of the Territorial Army in the UK amd also a member of my unit’s shooting team. We use the L85A1 and it is a very good weapon as long as it is cleaned properly, the only real fault is the cocking handle , which sometimes sends empty cases back into the ejection port causing jams, which are rare.In the field or on the range I have not experienced any problems, so what you hear in the press about this rifle is grossely exagerated.
I have found the SA80 an ideal rifle for between decks on H.M. Ships with it being so short.
Give R.O. a break, it’s a 50 year old design!!
A1 had 3 main problems: it was only ever tested in the UK, the magasine was desingned as a throwaway but was never thrown away- resulting in the last few rounds not loading correctly, and the cocking handle bouncing ejected rounds back into the weapon. The A2 is a sturdy well designed weapon that has addressed all three problems (they even tested it underwater for luck)!!
lets not forget that the only problems found with it afghanistan were due to treating it as an A1… look after it per instructions and it’ll do the job you ask!
Sir: I am interested in the purchase of a civilan model of the sa80 I understand that a company called Birmingham Arms Co builds such a weapon but I have a problem in locating an address or phone number for them any help would be greatly appreciated. I have also learned that Kalashnikov builds a civilan copy of the L85A1 but there again I am in need of an address or phone number. Please help if you can. The Kalashnikov copy is called the AKR20. Again I would greatly appreciate any help you could provide. My e-mail address is as follows gordon9@hotmail.com THANKS: Larry A Gordon es AKR20. a number in r