Recently a friend told me something about kibbutzes (kibbutzim?) in Israel, which got me into speculation mode. My friend had, he told me, met quite a few people in the course of his various globetrottings who, attracted by the aura of idealism and general world-savingness that kibbutzes radiate, had spent time in a kibbutz. Such pilgrims, said my friend, had quite soon left, all of them disgusted by the experience. Far from being havens of a higher form of humanity, kibbutzes are incubators of nastiness and personal backbiting and unpleasantness of all kinds. Kibbutz life, said these people, had cured them of socialism for ever. Which makes me speculate that kibbutzes are, for this reason, a spectacularly good thing, for the people thus inoculated, and for the world, in more ways than I can count in a short blog posting.
The only kind of people said my friend, who live well in kibbutzes are, well, the kind of people who live well in kibbutzes. People who thrive under totalitarian socialism, basically. Good at politics, good at screwing people without appearing too obviously to screw them, in accordance with the rules of rigid egalitarianism. There are lots of rules, to suppress individualism, getting ahead, getting richer, and so on, and the individuals who understand these rules use them ruthlessly to get ahead, and even, if you are flexible about how you measure wealth, to get wealthy.
These “alpha personalities”, as my friend described them, stick around, ruling the kibbutz with a rod of egalitarian iron. Many of the people lower down the Greek alphabet, without whom these alphas would presumably be rather helpless, are the transients, some of whom my friend had talked with. Young idealists, for whom life on a kibbutz is some kind of rite of Jewish passage. They arrive, serve their time until they can stand it no longer, and leave, taking with them an education in the realities of egalitarian collectivism that is given to few others in what is basically, still, a moderately free world. They experience such a regime good and hard, in a form that they can contrast with a life outside that kibbutz that is still massively freer, and then leave, taking that knowledge with them.
So, in addition to being one of the great new hubs of technological innovation in the world, the state of Israel, by permitting with its laws (including, presumably, a law which says that kibbutzes may not imprison those who no longer consent to being there), and encouraging with its ideological traditions, master classes in the realities of collectivism, is doing the world another huge favour. Kibbutzes are, you might say, re-education camps for precisely the sort of people who most require such re-education, and at a time in their lives soon enough to make a huge difference, to them and to the world.
I am a huge admirer of that human semi-collectivity called Jews, and pretty much an uncritical supporter of the state of Israel in its ongoing struggle to stay in existence and to flourish. But, and please do not misunderstand this next bit, I sort of agree with some of the more admiring bits in the ravings of the world’s many anti-semites, present and past. Jews are rather special. A century ago or so, Jews did have an influence on the world that was far greater than their mere numbers would seem to have allowed. (I am a classical music fan, and the sheer scale of the Jewish presence in that world has been and remains extraordinary.) It did not follow from the super-achievements of Jews that therefore the Jews were evil and should all be murdered, and it does not follow now. But, they were a group of people very much to be reckoned with, and they surely still are, again way beyond their mere numbers in the world.
I therefore now surmise that an ongoing education programme, which turns energetic, adventurous and idealistic young Jews from devotees of collectivism in devotees of something more like the opposite, has got to be one of the very best things now going on in the world.
But, this is pretty much all speculation on my part. The question mark at the end of my heading is no mere afterthought. I admire Israel from afar, but have never been there, nor have I travelled very much in the world. (Maybe if I spent more time in Isreal, I would admire it less.) So I end with all the usual questions which thinking-aloud, but-what-do-I-know?, guess postings of this kind generally do and always should end with. Does any of the above make sense to any of our commentariat? In particular, how do the above speculations strike any readers of this who have pertinent knowledge of the matters I speculate about, of the sort which I do not have, beyond that small item of chat from a friend?
I can well imagine that kibbutzes might indeed do a bit of the good I describe, but be doing a lot more harm in other ways. Also, my friend, being of a strongly anti-collectivist inclination himself, could have been suffering from severe selection error. Maybe the world is full of Jews who have lived in a kibbutz and would like nothing less than to kibbutzise the entire world. But, I like to think not.
I think that Jews are more predisposed by their (our) culture/religion towards individualism than towards collectivism. Other than that, we are pretty much like everyone else: a mixture of our parents’ and our environment’s influence – the latter being obviously very varied. So we basically have all kinds, like everyone else. Israel specifically had the misfortune of having been founded not necessarily by collectivists, but by useful idiots who really believed that socialim/communism was the cure of all for society’s ills. And then, of course, the collectivists took over, as they do, especially when under existential threat from the outside.
What your friend says about kibbutzim is(*) true for individuals who are innately predisposed to individualism to begin with (which I belive to be most people: true collectivists are a minority in the human race). *Problem is that kibbutzim of today are not at all what they used to be, after going bankrupt back in the late 80s and early 90s. So the younger generation has no idea what life in a kibbutz (or, for that matter, in Israel under Labor) was like. Learning from history or repeating it and all that.
I think that Jews are more predisposed by their (our) culture/religion towards individualism than towards collectivism. Other than that, we are pretty much like everyone else: a mixture of our parents’ and our environment’s influence – the latter being obviously very varied. So we basically have all kinds, like everyone else. Israel specifically had the misfortune of having been founded not necessarily by collectivists, but by useful idiots who really believed that socialim/communism was the cure of all of society’s ills. And then, of course, the collectivists took over, as they do, especially when under existential threat from the outside.
What your friend says about kibbutzim is(*) true for individuals who are innately predisposed to individualism to begin with (which I belive to be most people: true collectivists are a minority in most societies). *Problem is that kibbutzim of today are not at all what they used to be, after going bankrupt back in the late 80s and early 90s. So the younger generation has no idea what life in a kibbutz (or, for that matter, in Israel under Labor) was like. Learning from history or repeating it and all that.
That’s ‘rite of passage’.
/spelling a**hole off.
I knew a Jewish girl in the 1970s who did this Jewish-rite thing – it was very much a cool requirement in the left-liberal Jewish community, apparently. She came back early – like, after a couple of weeks – and described the place as a forced-re-education camp. The thing that sticks in my memory is her descriptions of the mandatory communal eating rituals, followed by the mandatory communal ‘entertainment’ sessions, and also the bizarre separations of children from their parents.
But all ‘idealized’ communities degrade like this – The Noyesian communities, the Amana colonies, the People’s Temple, and many more. They all end up being run by (and, often, for the benefit of) a very few highly-motivated individuals. The kibbutzim have only lasted longer (and, as Alisa notes, they have fundamentally altered along the way) because they were based in a post-pogrom and post-Holocaust heritage where living in a communal society in a temperate climate and having enough to eat must have seemed like heaven on earth to the refugess who populated them.
As I’ve noted before, people in large groups can be very nasty – enforced communal living amplifies the nastiness of the individual, because the rule of 90-9-1 will not be denied .
llater,
llamas
Alsia knows more about the current situation, but in the early 1970s I spent time on three different Kibbutzim.
A Kibbutz takes on its character not from ideology but from its members, my first was more of an old fashioned village with each family doing its chores and keeping to itself. The second was a bit more collectivist, but not in a socialistic sense but in a military one. They were in a strategically dangerous spot and the members behaved more like members of a unit than like a old Russian collective farm.
The third was more of a socialistic place, with all the negative elements one would expect. They were the richest, as in best equipped, Kibbutz I knew, but they were the most unhappy.
I’ve heard recently that there is a phenomena of the “Urban Kibbutz” I’d like to find out more about this. Sounds kinda hippie to me.
llamas
Thanks for spotting the spelling error. I acknowledge it here, but have now corrected it.
The kibbutzes and the left’s attitude to Israel have always confused me. Here is a country with a fairly pure implementation of Socialism up and running, and it actually comes close to working. Certainly not working in a sustainable manner that would make people strap themselves to a makeshift raft to navigate miles of open sea to get there. Not even just so that most of them don’t end up bankrupt, but simply not collapsing into a bloody heap is more than every other implementation of Socialism can say for itself. As an added bonus no mass murder; Lefties can be pretty chilled about defending mass murdering despots, but still this has got to be a plus. Israel should be the poster child of the radical left, yet it gets even more abuse from lefties than the USA. Maybe this post shows the reason? People can go to a Kibbutz, find out what it is actually like, and then leave knowing that even voluntary Socialism is not a system you would want to live under.
I think that is certainly true, Alisa… but I think Brian’s broader point is that (for such a person) some time in a kibbutz can provide a life long inoculation against collectivism 🙂
That goes without saying, Perry.
Llamas: the real reason the kibbutzim survived as long as they did were the massive, if mostly indirect subsidies they received from the various Labor governments over the years.
Chris: the left hates Israel for the same reason it hates the Jews in gemeral, and the US too: the tall poppy syndrom.
Chris: the left hates Israel for the same reason it hates the Jews in gemeral, and the US too: the tall poppy syndrom.
Chris: in the 1940s and 1950s, Israel was a poster child of the socialist left.
But by the 1960s, Israel’s enemies had adopted the rhetoric of anti-colonialism, and Israel was no longer a “socialist” country. That is, only a small fraction of Israelis practiced the formal collectivism of the kibbutz.
Israel’s “socialist” credentials were trumped by its “colonialist” alleged sins.
I also did my rite-of-passage thingy in Israel. 2 1/2 years in late 80s in orthodox talmudic college. During that time I visited a kibbutz once, and spent about 2 hours there.
I ate lunch in the cafeteria and it was really depressing. A family sat at an adjacent table silently, sullenly eating their daily ration. I concluded that kibbutzim are there for those who cannot make it on their own wits. Something like a welfare+work program.
I have nothing against socialists reunite with each other and make a commune. It is their freedom.
The problem start when they want to enslave the others that don’t think like them.
For me: that millions of kibbutz flourish over the world. Then we might be saved from socialists meddling with our lives.
Back in the Hippie Era, I lived for several years in a crafts commune. That drove home the fallacy of “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need”.
It was purely amazing how needs could expand beyond all belief. I only had one part time job, but still ended up supporting the government worker and his wife. The rest of the hippies only seemed to earn money at crafts fairs.
I left, as soon as I could do so with a clean conscience. Collectivism sucks.
I don’t like starting a comment with a negative, but I found this article to be utter nonsense, based on my own experience.
I stayed on a Kibbutz for 7 months back in the early 90s. I was 18/19, generally leftish in an undefined way but I’ve never had any time for organised politics. I went there straight from a moderately conservative middle-class home in the UK not because of any ideological leanings but because I’d missed the boat for college that year, didn’t want to do a dead-end drudge job and thought it sounded like a fun adventure. I knew little or nothing of the kibbutz movement or Israel. I’m not Jewish.
I don’t recognise any of the horror stories related here – maybe I was lucky, but I met a lot of people who volunteered on other kibbutzim and they didn’t relate any stories like these either. I worked in a chemical factory on the kibbutz and had a great laugh with the other volunteers, kibbutzniks and local workers. The factory was run by people on a rotating basis and seemed to work well – productivity was high, people were enthusiastic and there was a good atmosphere. There were young hip kibbutzniks doing the heavy lifting, middle aged guys in management and elderly holocaust survivors doing light work like sticking labels on buckets, where the work wasn’t strenuous and they could chat all day.
Meals in the canteen weren’t compulsory for everyone – kibbutzniks’ homes had their own kitchens – but everyone tended to gather there for the midday meal and the Friday evening meal and there was a friendly, sociable atmosphere. The food was generally OK although there was a hint of school dinners to some the offerings 🙂 I’m actually laughing at the word ‘compulsory’ there – the thought of trying to make any of them do anything they didn’t want to is ridiculous.
Obviously there was internal politics there, and hierarchies – there were a few different nationalities represented among the locals and they seemed to have carved out their own turf over the years (Argentinians, Uruguayans, Chileans, Poles and Germans). The politics seemed a lot less invasive and destructive than I’ve seen in companies I’ve worked at since though.
As for some sort of Soviet-style enforced collectivism though? Not a whiff, scent, sighting or sausage – and I think that if anyone had tried, they’d have been laughed at for a while then told “no, seriously – **** off”. If I got any kind of ideological lesson from my experiences there, it was that a voluntary collective with free movement of people can work. Coercing people into that sort of a lifestyle would never work, and would lead only to the misery of the Soviet system.
I left with feelings of fondness for the people I met, but grave misgivings about the country itself – I read a lot about the history of Israel while I was there and the casual racism and apartheid I witnessed for myself was shocking and disturbing, and I found it hard to believe that the people I’d made friends with were part of that system.
Chris Strange,
You miss a lot here. Israel was a poster child for the radical left, for decades, but it got successful.
Israel was founded by the left, and it is their most successful project. In fact, it may very well be the only major success the left have ever achieved.
My observation is that so many lefties, and many a progressive, love and admire the underdog and the failure, but hate success. The hatred of Israel was birthed soon after the six day war, when it became clear that the Jewish state was no longer underdog and was quite capable of looking after itself.
Ben: you were lucky to get there too late (i.e. ‘early 90s’) and miss all the “fun” of the original kibbutz. I was “lucky” enough to catch it (late 70s). That said, ‘compulsory’ is indeed too strong a word to describe the dynamics, but not by a very large margin. Also, diffrent kibbutzim have and had diffrent atmoshere, dynamics etc., because of different human makup and circumstances, but the underlying collectivism is unmistakable for anyone who’s willing to look. The main point, of course, that everyone was (and is) always free to leave at any time.
Utter nonsense? No, just not *your* experience. I can certainly imagine that some people could go to a kibbutz and emerge without a deeply negative impression of the whole thing.
However I know several people who went to a kibbutz in the 70’s/80’s who came out with a transcendent loathing of the whole movement.
Might be worth noting that *all* of them were Jewish and *all* of them were pressured into doing it by their parents who thought it would be ‘good for them’… and I would suggest it was, just not in the way the parents had in mind… which was rather the point Brian was making 🙂
Joshua Muravchik, in his book Heaven on Hearth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism, talks about the kibbutzim and draws the conclusion that they were initially successful due to being founded by ideologically committed volunteers, but waned in popularity within a generation for the very reasons you have observed, with many of the original kibbutzim being disbanded or transformed away from their original forms. Writing about the decline of the kibbutzim, he closes the book with:
I believe (someone will correct me if I am mistaken) that no more than 5% of Jews in Israel (at any one time) choose to be members of Kibbutzes (not the right word – but I can spell the right word).
As for Israel generally – it was (and is) basically a mixed economy, welfare state (much the same as the Western European nations – or post 1960s United States, contrary to Rothbard I think calling a pre “Great Society” America government dominated is silly, 1950s America certainly was not a free market but it was a fundementally different TYPE of place to say Britain in the same period of time).
Actually, in some ways, Israel has retreated from state interventionism in the economy over time – because it simply does not work.
But the fundementals of the Welfare State are still there – in some ways stronger than ever (W.S.s do not shrink voluntarily – they have to be made to shrink and that takes a lot of political guts).
Even the Kibbutzium (or however the word is spelt) have changed over time – many of them (there are various different sorts – with different names) have become a lot less communal over time.
Plato’s dream of total communalism has proved (as he himself feared) to be not suitable for humanity in general – and the “Gold Gardians” (those who are brought up entirely communally – with no one knowing who their child is or who their parents are) have not turned out to be the Supermen that Plato hoped for
The weird thing about Israel (apart from the high defence burden) is the land situation.
So much land ownership is concentrated in the hands of the state – or in certain para state institutions.
This messes up the property market (and a lot else).
However, when the protestors (the people occupying Israeli town and cities – complaining about the high rents and so on) were told that the government was planning to sell land (so that more apartments could be built for rent – which would reduce the price), they went nuts.
Ideological committment to statism. It is not dead – at least not among the (Soros funded) protestors.
As for Jews in general…..
Yes Jews are “overepresented” in all sorts of fields (which has always astonished me about leftist American Jews with their demands for ethnic quotas – do they not understand how Jews would be hit by such quotas?).
Paul Johnson “History of the Jews” is well worth reading – as are all Johnson’s history works. Sometimes odd – but always interesting.