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Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
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The foolishness of half measures when dealing with power obsessed people It is fascinating how so many government cannot abide the idea of constitutional limits on the power of the state. Clearly the US and Brazilian governments are beside themselves that many in Honduras seem unwilling to allow their country to go the way of Venezuela.
If I was the government of Honduras I would simply give the government of Brazil 48 hours to get their embassy the hell out of Honduras permanently, and when they do… solve the ‘issue’ of Hugo Chavez wannabe Jose Manuel Zelaya the way they should have initially… with a 9 mm wide object moving at 360 metres per second.
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… with a 9 mm wide object moving at 360 metres per second.
You think that’s gonna solve the problem?
You think that might stop Honduras’ slide into civil war?
You think that will make lots of friends for the current government?
In short, you think this would be a positively productive move?
Geez!
Honduras doesn’t have any friends in the United States, Brazil, or Venezuela anyhow so let them stew. Sadly, for all intents and purposes in foreign policy the United States is a step away from being a communist state.
And by the way, why care about “making friends”, the only way they could “make friends” is by reinstalling the crypto-communist president into power as El Presidente for life and handing themselves over to a firing squad.
Obviously I do. This thug wants political power of a sort all too familiar in Latin America. Just as his opponents should have shot that authoritarian thug Hugo Chavez when they had the chance, that is what they should do to this guy while they still can.
Then could you tell me on what law the execution of the former president would be based?
Please don’t think I’m supporting him. As far as I can judge he was legally deposed. The current US position and policy toward Honduras are worse than a disgrace, they are despicable.
He should be executed for the utilitarian reason that he will be a real danger to all of his former countrymen as long as he lives. He will give all of their enemies a banner to wave around and a person to get behind. Given enough time i’m sure the combined subterfuge and backstabbing by Obama, Chavez, and De Silva would be enough to drag Honduras down into being yet another despotic Bolivarian socialist state.
Law? What does law have to do with it? This is a guy who clearly intends to tear up the constitutional limits on his political power over others… he clearly wishes to move outside the constitutional law. It seem rather naive to wait until he is in a position to make the law what he decides it should be. Hugo Chavez provides a stark example of what happens when people reach for law books when they should be reaching for a 9mm handgun. The tormented history of Latin America is awash with scum like Zelaya.
I had similar thoughts this morning. Brazil said they would not accept a deadline from the interim Honduras government…and I just thought if I were running the interim government I would simply tell the Brazilians they have 48 hours to leave the country.
Then I would arrest Zelaya and keep him locked up at an undisclosed location until well after the elections.
But I am probably too soft. Honduras tried handling this in the most sane, bloodless way they could, but Zelaya just won’t quit. Honduras really is in a bad spot, now. If Zelaya gets out, he will find a way to return to power and they will have a dictator, absolutely guaranteed. The only way to prevent this is to shoot him.
The international community would HATE that, of course, and seek to punish everyone in the Honduran government who had anything to do with it. But maybe the interim government is going to have to take their chances and sacrifice themselves for the sake of their country. They knew the job was dangerous when they took it.
I really feel sorry for them. Nobody is going to ride to their rescue, and the American president took the precise, wrong stand on the situation. Obama’s foreign policy isn’t simply either evil or stupid (like Bush’s), it is both evil AND stupid at the same time.
The US insanely acts against it’s own interest. Read more (much more) here.
“Then could you tell me on what law the execution of the former president would be based?”
Treason?
What was “insane” was the saving of Chevez by George Walker Bush.
Yes – it was the Bush Administration that jumped up and down saying “do not kill him” when Chevez was overthrown. By demanding that Chevez not be killed the Bush Administration made it inevitable that he would return to power and that Venezuela would be transformed into a Marxist state.
President Bush’s father (President George Herbert Walker Bush) has made a similar mistake when Norega was briefly overthrown in Panama – but this mistake was not so bad as Panama was small enough for a later intervention to remove the Norega problem without great difficulty.
However, there is nothing “insane” about the support of the Obama Administration for the pro Marxist ex President of Honduras. It is simply the case of a man with life long Marxist associations (Barack Obama) supporting a man (the ex President of Honduras) who looked like going over to the Marxist side. Perfectly logical and sensible – nothing “insane” about this at all. Although Obama must still be careful about how open his support for Marxism is – after all his own position in power in the United States is far from secure.
Self defense. In most places (in America, at least) if you throw somebody out the door and they keep trying to climb back in the window while muttering threats, shooting is allowed.
What we are witnessing is the once again assertions of the “Know Betters.”
I wish there were a more catchy label for them, perhaps someone can come up with it, but they are those who know better how everyone else should live, act and relate – and worst of all “How things should be!” (Which they never are, and are never made so.)
That is the essence of “policy making” as well, when one thinks about it. Designing, setting and implementing policy is determining the course of others’ lives (or trying to).
As to the “9mm solution:” Consider the unnecessary deaths from political turmoil generated by those who violate the agreed rules of social organization (e.g., a Constitution they have sworn to abide by); one death or many deaths?
Consider how far things went in Argentina as a result of reactions to efforts similar to those attempted in this instance (have we forgotten the “return” of Peron?); and then, the reactions in Chile.
Perhaps one has to be exposed to combat in war, and engaged in the efforts at killing many, not guilty of anything much except their dominantion by “leaders,” to appreciate that the killing of such “leaders” can save less offensive lives on both sides of any such issues as result in civil or international turmoil.
Could be that he has some off-the-books life insurance.
I don’t think the parties we are allowed to know about
are the providers. Intimate connections may give clues
The divisions everywhere seem to be establishment-
sponsored metanoids and disenchanted paranoids.
Like corporate voting shares’ proxies, most ballots
default to “management” , cast by “nominee names”
Defaults are predictable; indicating controlled.
RRS:
How about “Our worses” (spoken with an ironic tone)?
“Know Betters.” = “The Anointed “.
Uh, sic semper tyrannus?
Hear, hear. He’s a traitor. They tried exile, he came back. Shoot him.
I’ve always been in favour of a Mussolini style ending for deposed tyrants, though a CeauŠŸescu type balcony moment gives added flavour.
RRS: I sometimes refer to your “Know Betters” as “The Elect,” thus honoring the direct descent of Liberalism from Puritanism.
Alexandros:
Samizdata Illuminatus:
Thomas:
Lots of people happy to shoot inconvenient or troublesome people here.
Lots of people happy to shoot inconvenient or troublesome people here.
Sorry, but there are a lot of people in this world who need shooting.
We are talking about what may well be the lead up to a civil war and most certain is the lead up to a coup d’etat… I don’t think “inconvenient or troublesome people” quite fits the plot of this particular drama.
Judging from some of the tin foil hat nonsense this bozo has been going on about, i.e., “radiation waves” and Israeli assassins and all, it may just be that a straight jacket and some thorazine are more justified than a bullet.
Of course, one could make that comment about quite a few of the alleged world leaders strutting around the UN and babbling about their inner visions lately.
I wonder if there’s enough psycho-dope around to juice them all up. We could put them in Monty Python’s nut house with all the other goofs who think they’re Richard III.
“Of course, one could make that comment about quite a few of the alleged world leaders strutting around the UN and babbling about their inner visions lately.”
Hey!!! Don’t talk about President Obama like that!
;^)
PBUH.
Gadfly of Libya, Dinner-Jacket of Iran, Fat-Pig of Venezuela were all at the U.N. and often announcing cooperation with each other – for example Dinner-Jacket is going to help Fat-Pig with Venezuela’s nuclear schemes. And Russia and China will sell all of them anything they want (even if they do not have the money to pay – anything to cause terror in the world). By the way Dinner-Jacket was pronounced most “reasonable” by the Associated Press “journalist” who talked to him and by the other creatures of the “mainstream” media (very main stream – only about 90% of Americans have now worked out that the media was pro Obama during the election, although 41% of Americans still go along with some of Obama’s polices such as the health care “reform” Bill).
Islamic socialism, or athiest Marxist socialism- it is all collectivism, and they will only turn on each other when we are all dead or enslaved. Till then they will cooperte – as the leaders of such movements have cooperated for years such places as the Hyde Park district of Chicago (where so many of the leaders in the United States have homes).
And Barry Obama?
He blended right in – and the other collectivists praised him and clapped and clapped.
How did the West come to this?
I’ve been thinking about this…
and it seems to me that Brazil is engaged in an act of war against Honduras, using its embassy as basis for said act.
Dishman: well, yes, but what practical conclusion can this possibly lead to?
The Hondurans have given Brazil 10 days before they decertify their embassy, make them take down their flag and national shield, take Zelaya into custody, and then send a polite letter asking for the re-establishment of diplomatic relations. I find this a decent middle course, one that recognizes the basic geopolitical fact that Honduras is a fly to Brazil’s elephant. Certain forms need to be honored.
Honduras has no death penalty. The interim government is doing its best to stick to that principle and I salute them for it. This makes things inconvenient for them but it is certainly an improvement over past practice.
Unless Brazil grants asylum to Zelaya and evacuates him to Brazil, Zelaya will be standing trial for treason in a Honduran court before very much longer. From there, I suspect a long prison sentence is in his future.
This appears to be the way that Hondurans want to handle their own internal affairs. Our best move from outside is to support their right to handle those internal affairs.