The rioting in Lhasa seems to be continuing and now it has been reported that some discontent is boiling over elsewhere in Chinese occupied Tibet. Of course if the official death toll says:
only that 10 “innocent civilians” had died, mostly in fires set by rioters, and that 12 police officers had been seriously wounded.
It is safe to say it is probably ten times that, at least on the side of the resistors. It seems that Chinese colonists have also been involved in attacking Tibetans, so this does appear to be far from over. Sadly I cannot see China having any serious trouble remaining in control given the sheer size of their security apparatus.
So, all you activists out there who have made a career out of excoriating Israel, do you have anything to say about this?
Update: I received the following e-mail from a person called Lee Ming:
Why not China defend itself from separatisms? What if parts of Britain want to be separatists? China has rule this since long ago!
Some Chinese claims assert they have ruled Tibet since the 13th century (the Peace Treaty between Tibet and Britain in 1904 is strangely forgotten):
1. Chinese rule was always debatable
2. The historical claim is largely irrelevant. Scotland has been part of the UK since 1707 and it was in a loose de union with England since 1603… yet if a majority in Scotland vote to become independent now, do you think UKGov will send in the riot cops and troops? No. Hell, if a majority in Wessex want to go their own way, I quite like the idea of that too. There is nothing sacred about nation states.
The fact a majority of Tibetans want to be independent of China rather than live under colonial occupation is all the justification needed.
The Chinese government has said protesters “will be harshly treated”. Given the way the Chinese authorities behave towards their critics in standard unremarked circumstances, I think that means we should expect a campaign of systematic violence and cruelty sufficient to make Saddam Hussein look like an amateur.
The classic western diplomatic approach to this would be, “Mustn’t make a fuss in case they are offended and it spoils the Olympics/trade/our banqueting rights.”
Yep, can’t see Red Ken Livingstone shutting down the Mayor of London’s Beijing office. Also rather disgraceful is how India has prevented Tibetan refugees in India from indulging in activities “which might result in acts of violence or disruption directed against Chinese nationals and interests in India and in dramatic acts such as their professed intention of crossing the border into Tibet, which could lead to an undesirable escalation of cross-border tensions“. At the same time “India has expressed its distress over the situation in Tibet and called for a dialogue so that the Tibetans don’t feel the need to take to acts of violence in their desperation”, i.e. please don’t throw stones at the nice shiny T-72 tanks – its scratches the paintwork something awful.
Boycott China, Boycott China, Boycott China Now! Pass it on!
Does anyone believe those stats? What’s happening in Tibet sounds pretty despicable.
It is going to be an interesting year. Beijing sees the Olympics as something of a “coming out” party in which it wants to show itself as a rising, modern country. However, large amounts of China (including, in some ways, Beijing itself) are not like that, and there are aggrieved ethnic minorities who see a chance to protest and simply hundreds of millions of impoverished peasants in the vast Chinese interior. The Chinese leadership faces the task of trying to keep all that in control at the same time as smiling and trying to look civilized to the rest of the world. It’s traditional tactic of being as savagely brutal as possible while keeping the cameras away make not work this time. It is a very delicate balancing act, and one you would think the Chinese government (a remnant of another rather brutal age) is necessarily that well qualified to pull off.
It may be that the Beijing Olympics will end up being one of the more memorable instances of the games. Historically, one has to say that those games that have been most memorable have not generally been so for good reason.
Of course, the International Olympic Committee have awarded the 2014 Winter Games to Russia, apparently on the basis that Vladimir Putin is their kind of guy. Compared to these, 2012 may perhaps just be a peaceful interlude in which venal politicians steal my money for their junket.
So much money is now sunk by western firms into China, for often perfectly honest capitalist (good) reasons, that I doubt any sort of systemic boycotting campaign is really going to work now. However, this will fuel the fires of protectionism; you can just see how American politicians in the rust belt and EU politicians with large numbers of voters in the textile industries (Italy) etc, are going to use this to slap tariffs on Chinese imports, etc. By all means boycott their stuff at the individual consumer level, if you want, of course.
All that said, it shows that the much-vaunted China-is-gonna-take-over-the-world line we get from some people is overblown. China, while having grown very fast and with a large population, has problems: terrible pollution; an ageing population; no significant and broad-based middle class (although that is starting to change a bit); an unbalanced gender profile because of the “one child” policy; lack of clean drinking water and lack of irrigation water at least in the short run, which curbs agriculture…and oh, the fact that it is still a communist state with corruption, misallocation of investment and dodgy relations with its Russian neighbour.
We live in interesting times.
Isn’t it about time the Guardian started vilifying the Tibetans for their aggression and human rights abuses?
For a long time, I’ve not heard a single good reason why China should be in Tibet, from China’s perspective. They’re pumping money and people into what is essentially a black hole. Tibet, as far as I knew then, possesses no energy reserves, no mineral wealth. Other than tourism to its religious sites and the mountains, it had nothing.
I’ve heard chinese nationals exclaim, “We’re giving them progress!” To which I reply, “Lasting progress, or temporary ones? Hey, it’s your money going down the drain.”
The Tibetans were happy enough with the way their lives were going. If they wanted to stay in their shitholes, ruled by feudalism, it’s their choice anyway. Let’s be honest, before the chinese overlords came, the Tibetans had their own overlord and serf systems. Liberalism it ain’t.
Of course, given the finding last year of a large mineral deposit in the Tibetan Plateau, things have changed. China would hang onto that mineral deposit no matter what. Maybe it hopes that it can finally gain something out of Tibet rather than additional buffer region it doesn’t really need.
Still, the smart move for China would be to pull out. Use MNCs to obtain the mineral wealth. Remove one significant point of criticism by the human rights organizations. The Tibetans would probably end up grateful to china for bootstrapping their economy and pumping in enough to improve their infrastructure, which would probably be a great help in avoiding backsliding to the old feudal system.
However, I don’t expect that to happen. Like the gambler who has staked too much, the last thing China wants to do is to fold its hand.
Continuing the analogy with Israel: those nasty Tibetans must have been lobbing qassam rockets into Chinese towns…
JP,
Seconded. China is just too important to criticise. Think what it would do to the HSBC share price! Some half-arsed measures aimed primarily at protecting our own crappy industries seem in order.
Remember when Dubya kicked off a steel war with the EU because of some daft vow to protect US steel workers? Then it turned out that this actually hurt the US economy because it made a hell of a lot more cash making things out of steel than making steel. Yeah, that’s exactly the sort of ticket for our Lords and Masters.
What justification China has to occupy Tibet is beyond me. They ought to withdraw because it isn’t their effing country. The parallel with Israel is false. I don’t seem to recall hearing that Tibetan monks were firing rockets at Shanghai prior to the invasion. The Indians ought to raise their game. “Democracy” seems to be the big idea right now (for right or wrong) and they should be shouting we’re the biggest from the rafters… Well that’s what I’d do.
What puzzles me is that the BBC is thoroughly conflicted (probably because they’ve planned to drop a shed-load of cash on covering the world’s largest school sports day this summer). Today I heard one of their talking heads saying that the Chinese were onside over Darfur yet yesterday one of their correspondents (I remember her because she was very fit in a very Nubian sense – a look I like) had met the Janjawid and been shown all their Chinese hardware.
What really interests me is that the only people in my town (Manchester) who seem to be doing anything about the appalling antics of the ChiComs are the inhabitants of China Town. I have a VCD of what they do to Falun Gong followers. It’s shocking. Fancy donating your liver? Fancy doing it while alive and healthy… Move to China and take up a (frankly bonkers but utterly harmless) “religion”.
It’s only ethnic Chinese who seem bothered about what’s going on “back home” yet you can always count on a rent-a-mob to slag off Israel. I was once accosted by some git in a “peace scarf” outside M&S. I had bought a sandwich the profit from which was clearly, 100%, going to kill Palestinian children…
Oy Vey, Gewalt!
I told him to fuck off. He had a small gollumesque oppo with bad teeth with him who got vaguely threatening. Seeing as he was about 5’4″ and 50kgs I told him to fuck off too. (“Fuck Off” has a remarkable tendency to work in a Geordie accent).
The next weekend, at the same spot, there was a counter demo representing the nations that had suffered from Islamic terrorism. They had the flags of the UK, the USA, Spain, Russia, India and Israel…
We didn’t surrender to mono-testiculated nutter with a ‘tache and I’ll be fucked backwards with an item of street furniture if I’m rolling over for a bunch of preverts with beards. It would appear that many Mancunians feel the same.
Good. Very good!
PS. The other is in The Albert Hall.
No country is wealthy from its beginning. China is a developing country, so it is quite normal there are some poor. Even in NY there is a large number of homeless people. Tibet was a part of China since yuan dynasty, and the later ming and qing dynasty both claimed their ownership among this land. From CNN and from my friend in Lasha we can take for granted that there are a severe damage in the city, and the police there maintained tolerance at the beginning. So who do you suppose caused such a damage, the police? How can you still claim such a protest is peaceful? Your resentful attitute can only make we chinese more unite and more dilligence.
Blame Bush!
Actually, the glitterati Left has been quite vocal in its condemnation of China’s human rights abuses. The Dalai Lama’s strategy of schmoozing entertainers is one reason. China’s march into capitalism is another. It took China’s abandonment of murderous collectivization to get lefties to put down their Little Red Books and pick up their Free Tibet signs. Hell hath no fury like a progressive scorned…
Perhaps what will follows here is too much of a World View, sort of perception, but again it may merit some study and consideration.
We are probably at what might be termed the second (if not third) swelling and extension of what has come to be called Western Civilization.
It is moving eastward and compressing the cultures of peoples in ways that are destructive of previous and long-standing norms of human inter-actions that were the basis of earlier civilizations now being submerged by the “techtonics” of “Westernization.”
The responses of the dominant coalitions in those compressed areas are much the same throughout recorded history to “threats from without.”
The current dominant coalitions making up the “China” of today would naturally see the Western geographic boundaries of their various peoples as the Marches where the extensions of outside threats may be thwarted, if not contained. That view makes Xinjang (sp?) and its Turkic majority, as well as Tibet, a place to draw a line (for now) against further fragmentation as has occurred with Mongolia. These become the new Wall of China for those coalitions.
What seems missing, or at least difficult to discern, is the recognition within the cultures which make up “China,” that the sources of the forces generating the formation of its coalitions have changed. There is now the threat from within from the Eastward penetration by Western Civilization, not yet accompanied by significant cultural changes that are likely to follow.
In what we call the Middle East, with the fall of the heart of Mesopotamia to the push of Western Civilization, and the further compression of declining cultures (despite expanding demographics) the responses will occur, but with less effect because of the now almost complete fragmentation of previous coalitions and destruction of the bases on which those coalitions were formed (ethnic and religious)., and their replacement by other human objectives for their lives and inter-actions.
That is what the formation of Isreal really signifies to those cultures, and raises the antagonisms seen and felt, even in the Western Bastion of coastal Lebanon. These bring, or have brought, the beginning penetrations of Western Civilization. Older forms of order are in descent and will disappear, but not go quietly into a number of nightmare nights.
Something similar might be said of the responses from the current dominant coalitions of Russia to the completion of “Westernization.” Sadly, the changes in the sources of the forces that form such coalitions have not occurred, and are not yet occurring. The best that is indicated is an underlying development of “europeanization” of its urban cultures during periods of increasing urbanization.
Warts and all, Western Civilization is on the move encompassing more and more of humanity.
What’s more, a majority of those falung gong get paid from foreign orgnization to disgrace chinese government, so I really doubt the authenticity of what they saying.
1.
“They died of fire, asphyxiation and beating. Some of them were set on fire by rioters and died in the burning.”
“The rioters beat a patrolling police officer until he got into coma, and rioters cut out a piece of flesh, as big as a fist, from his buttock.”
Was that so called peaceful protest?
2.
“if a majority in Scotland vote to become independent now…” What about Northern Ireland? How do you judge that Tibetans who want to be independent constitute a “majority”? So far as I know from friends working in Lhasa, only some monks and jobless street gangs took part in this riot.
@ Voices from China: There are indeed reports (including from mainstream western media outlets) that civilians have been assaulted by rioters and that there has been some racist thuggery against Han Chinese civilians. In such a situation it would be normal for the police to intervene. What is unusual here is the media black-out and it is more than likely that this is intended to hide unacceptable levels of police and military brutality. If the police intervention is justified by the rioters’ violence then please let the world watch. The rest of the world was allowed to see what happened in the French riots, why should Tibet be different?
Well, what about it? There are peaceful and legal independence movements in Scotland, Wales, Quebec, Cataluña etc. They are mostly not very successful, but if they were, as in Slovakia or Monte Negro, why should there need to be any problem?
Well make up your minds, various voices of China.
Either Lhasa has been devistated by these uppity monks, or there are so few of them that it’s hardly worth ringing the police.
There are tanks on the streets and house to house searches going on.
A lot of Tibetans have died.
I know that the history of China and Tibet goes back centuries, but then my counties involvement in Eireland goes back centuries, doesn’t mean that what once was should be forever, now does it?
How did you guys get through the firewall by the way?
Govt stooges perhaps?
“There is nothing sacred about nation states.”
I rather think there is… it’s just that when part of a state wants to seceed from the rest, by definition it is no longer a “nation”. People ought to realise that China, like the USSR, is not a nationstate at all, but an empire-state much like Austro-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire (albeit not to the same degree).
India’s stance is sad but unsurprising. What’s sadder, is all the other provinces who don’t have someone charismatic like the Dalai Lama fighting their cause. “Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region” for instance.
Chinese colonialism is much more idealistic and less mercantile than old European colonialism. They don’t invade these places to get raw materials or cheap labour, they do it to make China bigger and more important.
“Tibet was a part of China since yuan dynasty, and the later ming and qing dynasty both claimed their ownership among this land”
Translation: China has long wanted other people’s land and is determined to hold on to it. Some crummy dictator “claiming their ownership” of land does not impress me.
We should ask the IOC to relook their values. Maybe they can give Zimbabwe or Saudi Arabia the next Olympics? That should fit in nicely with their values the way China did. http://angryafrican.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/and-the-olympics-goes-to-zimbabwe/
The olympics will be interesting to watch. With the world’s cameras pointed on China (including media outlets that normally only care about sports like ESPN and Sports Illustrated) it would be a perfect opportunity for the people of China to rise up. If there has been a time in post-Tiannamen Square China when freedom could be theirs it will be durring the Olympic Games.
“voice from china”
Which of the two Chinas would that be?
Voice from China,
I’m confused. Who was it who was paying Falun Gong to “discredit” the ChiCom government? Was it Da Joos? (Those sneaky bastiges, always starting conspiracies with the Freemasons and stuff.)
And is it then your contention, that no Falun Gong had their body parts stolen? Is it then your contention, that Falun Gong is not a peaceful religious group, but is instead engaged in violent uprising?
And BTW, the uncivilized thugs in your government discredit themselves.
What justification China has to occupy Tibet is beyond me.
As a strictly practical matter, it is not unheard of for governments to decide that a sufficiently strong military is it’s own justification.
Also as a strictly practical matter, this approach has a rather high probability of success.
O/T:No. Hell, if a majority in Wessex want to go their own way, I quite like the idea of that too
Heck I’ll move back West if we cede..
I think we’re about to see another demostration of the limits of “soft power”. The rest of the world will whine, China will go on breaking heads until it all blows over, and life will go on. Hell, I doubt anyone will skip the olympics, since it’ll be a good show to get everyone’s mind off economic problems.
But I guess as long as Bjork has a clean conscience, everything is ok.
(Sarcasm Alert) Anyone got any “Free Tibet” bumper stickers for sale? I gotta do my part.
my friend is in china…and she asked for info on tibet cause she can t find anything there…and i sent her info per email and they blocked her email…….they censor everything in china regarding this topic
“Tibet was a part of China since yuan dynasty, and the later ming and qing dynasty both claimed their ownership among this land.”
Having been a part of a country can’t be an argument for chineese i guess. After all, HongKong’s been a part of UK, hasn’t it?
What about Brazil? It has been a part of Portugal some centuries ago. So does Portugal have a claim on Brazil?
OK, guys. China governors had done wrong in Tibet in 1970s and ruined the temples. I hate that period and feel sorry for Tibet. However, constrasted with you western’s gemocide on Tasmanians and Indians, ruining temples was a small case, wan’t it?
In western’s eyes, nothing is better that the independence of Tibet. But have you really considering people’s life qualities in Tibet? China governors have no hostile towards Tibet and dedicate in developing its economy. Tibetans live far better lives than ever before, so most Tibetans don’t want to be independent from China. Lsasa has more than 300,000 adult residents, but how many rioters did you see these days?
If Tibet is independent, Lhasa and Beijing will be hostile to each other. War is possible. Lhasa and Beijing will both be loser. Is that you westerns would like to see?
look at this news, guys, is that you called objective media? Put a picture from Nepal on a Chinese news report and cut the police’s faces, interesting?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/world/asia/18china.html?_r=1&r=1&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
I saw a Chinese official in Tibet on state TV last night indignantly claiming that it was sooo terrible for the “Dalai clique” and some Westerners to be asserting all kinds of untruths about what’s going on there and how irresponsible they are for spreading such lies.
The point is, dude, YOU DON’T ALLOW INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS TO COVER THE RIOTS which makes anyone with half a brain wonder what you have to hide. Sorry, but your version of events…um…lacks credibility somewhat (redlining the understatement-o-meter there).
The level of Orwellian propaganda flowing on CCTV 9 (the English language TV station of the Chinese state propaganda machine) over this event is unprecedented since I arrived in this country.
And to the “voices from China” – I’m sorry to say, but you guys simply aren’t told the whole story about this kind of thing. Your government has fed you and your parents half-truths and lies since you could first understand your language. I know firsthand the kind of crap that is constantly served up to you as “news” and “history”. You simply don’t know what’s really going on in your country (and neither does anyone else, except the top party officials, which of course is the problem), and your concept of China’s recent history is badly distorted.
I can’t stand it that a CNN correspondent just asked Chinese Premier Wen Jia Bao what his response is to western condemning “Chinese use of force” on “peaceful protests” in Tibet. What is CNN thinking? Look at the pictures and news videos!!! Rioters were armed with foot-long knives, steel pipes and chasing other civilians of the Han ethnicity. It’s like someone asking you, “How would you respond to rumors that you are already dead?” Why not get the facts straight before asking a question? CNN’s repeated use of the term “peaceful protests” only implants the false idea into the minds of its audience and present a biased story.
On the other hand, I also can’t understand how anyone seem to support organized acts of violence against other civilians. Some people on CNN blog call these freedom fighters “heroes”. Riots are riots. Property damage can be tolerated to some level. But rioters chasing and slashing people with knives and steel pipes? How is supporting these people different from supporting terrorist’s acts against civilians?
I do support using dialogue to resolve the conflict, but please remember who initiated violence. You can clearly identify Tibetan monks within the riot crowd in news videos shown in Hong Kong, where some were shown tearing down a gate of a Bank of China branch. Way to initiate peaceful dialogue, Dalai Lama.
Maybe my world history knowledge is not accurate, but isn’t the entire New World colonized and claimed lands? Or was each piece of land peacefully acquired and negotiated from the Native Americans?
All I have to say is that CNN is presenting a biased view of the conflict and even the media in Hong Kong may be biased in some ways. But the fact of the matter is, if these violent riots occurred in your neighborhood, would you still support these actions?
Tiananmen Square incident was wrong, no doubt about it, and Chinese government should be responsible and address their mistakes in the past. But the Tibet conflict is nothing like that. And surely, Chinese officials must have learnt from the past mistakes especially with all eyes on the upcoming Olympics.
Many here seem so quick to blame the Tibetans and call them terrorists but never once did you wonder WHY Tibetans are protesting. If things are so wonderful for the Tibetans then why would they even protest? The Dalai Lama has been asking for cultural and religious autonomy for so long and yet the Chinese government has spurned him at every turn. The Dalai Lama even said that he accepts that Tibet is part of China and that China has brought many good things to Tibet. All he has asked for is the right for Tibetans to practice their own culture. Why doesn’t the CCP listen and try to compromise? Tibetans should not have hurt the innocent but they felt fed up.
RAB:
That’s exactly what occurred to me. I don’t really have any hard numbers to back that up, but it’s my hunch that having a few propagandists employed to leave comments on prominent political blogs would be a quite cost-effective way of spreading political propaganda these days for a government like Chinese. Of course, there’s no way to tell, unless the blog admins discover (and choose to reveal) some interesting data on IP addresses of the “voices”. 🙂
Another voice from China:
Yeah, I’m just melting from the warm fuzzy feeling… makes me wanna have Chinese governors dedicated to developing the economy where I live. 🙂
If some rich Oil king purchase a piece of dessert in Nevada U.S. and pays off the residents and decide to declare independence, would U.S. government just respect that?
A little exaggerated, yes. But this is exactly why unity is a national security issue as well. This is also why Russia oppose the installation of Patriot missiles in Eastern Europe.
You would think they would be a little more coherent.
(Though in that NYT article VFC links to at 4:09 the Chinese government is calling the Tibet independence people “splittists”)
“Dave” also has an interesting turn of phrase.
Only some URLs are blocked for mainland Chinese users (although it’s relatively easy to bypass with a proxy server like Anonymouse). The GFW is frequently a pain in the arse, but most of the web is available.
Dave: It doesn’t matter what the US government would or would not do in whatever bizarre hypothetical you pulled out of your various orifices. There’s a real issue at hand.
If China “developing the economy” is so great, then why do so many people want to leave?
Also, why is the ChiCom regime so dead set on censoring any news reports into and out of China? Why has access been denied to any non-ChiCom-controlled journalists? Why are you so afraid of your own people hearing the truth?
That is not the behavior of the innocent. That is the behavior of criminals with something to hide.
(Come to think of it, why do we get so many sockpuppets every time the fact that the ChiComs are a bunch of fascist criminals makes the front page here? Answers on a postcard, please.)
Ted:
Thanks for that. You owe me for the mouthful of Dogfish Head 120 that ended up on my monitor.
It’s funny that presenting the other side of the story invites accusations of spreading propaganda. Everyone is free to evaluate the ideas and facts presented. That is the essence of a free society. I’ve been trying for two days to get the TVB news video showing the violence and to share it with anyone who calls these protests peaceful. So they may see it for themselves.
To clarify, I have no issue with Tibetans getting what they want. But through violent riots to draw attention is not the way. Here in Hong Kong, we are demanding for universal sufferage as soon as possible. We are fed up too with the delay, but we march by the tens of thousands onto the streets to demonstrate our resolve. Personally, I do not know if the hundreds of people in the riots are representative of all the people in Tibet. I believe that most Tibetans are peaceful.
At the same time, I’m also aware that propaganda exists in every society. Some are more obvious, as in China through censorship. Some are more sophisticated through the selectiveness of views presented.
To BJ Expat:
Growing in China, I clearly know the lies existing. As you know, China governments conceal some history; however, they don’t conceal anything, which you may don’t know. You know the cersor in China, but you may not know Chinese can discuss nearly everything on the Internet, also there are still some forbidden zones.
How do you think you can know China than all Chinese? Yes, you may know something that most Chinese don’t know. However, what you know comes from media such as CNN, NYtimes, AFP. Didn’t you see their bias reports on Tibet riot? AFP shows a picture that a military truck on the street but cut the other side rioters throw stones on it. NYtimes put a picture from Nepal on a Chinese news report and cut the police’s faces, giving readers a wrong first impression that China polices were dragging monks on the ground. Don’t you feel shame on these media? Are you still confident that what you learned from these media were facts?
To Sunfish:
” If China “developing the economy” is so great, then why do so many people want to leave? ”
I ask, the USA is so great in maintaining world order, why Al-Qaeda attacked the towers? Not all people are sane.
“why is the ChiCom regime so dead set on censoring any news reports”
I also hate this, but it is another thing different from the Tibet riot. Evil person is not always doing evil.
“Why has access been denied to any non-ChiCom-controlled journalists?”
I don’t know the exact reason, but I think if the western journalists are in Lhasa, the rioters will feel encouraged and even more like to “show” their energy. On the other hand, even if stopping journalists is not appropriate, the riot is still not a right thing.
I regret that western society always neglect China’s progress in civil rights, looking at China with bias and coloured glasses, and wanting China the same as western immediately.
Good luck boycotting Chinese goods, those that plan to do so. I had to buy a new kettle recently and out of approx 15 choices, all were made in China
On the other hand, I also can’t understand how anyone seem to support organized acts of violence against other civilians.
The civilians are a weapon. What the Chinese are doing in Tibet is basically the opposite of ethnic cleansing.
Beijing’s long-term plan to make Tibet a part of China forever is basically to relocate Chinese to Tibet. Eventually, the Han will outnumber the Tibetians, and Beijing will allow a vote on if Tibet should become independent, and the result of the vote will be that Tibet should remain a part of China.
The Tibetans know that the more Chinese there are in Tibet, the more difficult it will be for them to ever become independent. It is not a pleasant thing, but it is not difficult to understand.
To a.sommer:
Tibet is China’s territory, so it is common and legal that Chinese move from other provinces and settle there. Could you image Enlishman can’t live in Scottland or NYers can’t move to California? Why wouldn’t white Americans and Australians move back to UK? They don’t originally live there.
To a.sommer:
“The civilians are a weapon.”
Could you discuss with some common sense? I hate China’s ruining civil rights, but as to the Tibet riot, I stand on the China government, because these rioters are almost terrorists!
It’s not even legal for the PRC to be in Tibet in the first place.
And when a handful of pacifist monks smack an airliner into an office building, call me back.
I call bullshit again. One, we have only the promise of a communist that it was a riot as opposed to a punitive expedition by the military against unarmed peaceful protestors. Two, if the reporters are there then they can report what they see. If they’re not, then your word is all we have and not a damn person with access to anything other than your own propaganda believes you. Or, I guess I could ask why your boss felt the need to block Youtube?
Progress my fat drunken flatfoot ass. You’re still the country that murdered roughly 100,000,000 people in my own lifetime and still worships the child molester bastard who masterminded the whole thing.
Sacre moo, I’ve finally found someone who actually bought Ward Churchill’s story. Tasmanians? And whatever ‘genocide’ you’re on about was over long before you or I were born. Repeat after me: “the bad guys in my meth-addled fantasy are not the people I’m talking to right now.”
Jeez, you collectivist bastards can’t see the trees for the forest. Is that like the vision problems from not eating enough carrots in childhood?
Taken from a Reuters piece just now:
Finally, something within my lane.
I’ve been a less-lethal user and instructor for some time. It takes some real doing to get 13 deaths from less-lethal weapons. Every death subsequent to employment of taser, gas, and beanbag or stingball impact rounds in the western US in the last year or so probably wouldn’t add up to 13. Exclude the cocaine or methamphetamine overdoses subsequent to taser application and you definitely don’t have a baker’s dozen corpses.
THIS is why independent journalists need to be there, why the bodies need to be examined post-mortem by an examiner independent of the government, and all of the other precautions we take for granted here. When coroners and district attorneys[1] are independently elected, their job security does not depend on whitewashing whatever the city police shouldn’t have done. If autopsies are not performed or are performed without independent observation and oversight, it becomes quite reasonable to believe that they’re being hidden from view because the official ordering them has something to hide.
This is also why, even though as a cop I’m supposed to hate all journalists, I don’t. The ones who are really nasty about us, well, all I have to do is conduct myself in a way that, if they write something unfavorable I can truthfully say “that’s a damn lie.” And it is not the place of the public to shut up and just trust their government. It’s the task of government, and especially the parts of government empowered to deprive people of life, liberty, or property, to be worthy of trust and to understand that being trustworthy still doesn’t necessarily mean being trusted.
Which means, independent media needs to be able to see and report as they will. Even if they’re rotten with lying sacks like Maria Mitchell or Paula Woodward or most of al-Jazeera-on-the-Hudson. The truth can come out of enough voices are free to see it and repeat it. If only one is let to see it, then nobody will or should trust that one.
[1] For non-US readers: the DA in my state is the chief prosecutor for a district of one or several counties, and is elected to four year terms. All of his staff, including deputies, staff investigators, etc., are subject to being replaced at will when a new DA is elected. Coroners are also elected, one per county to four-year terms, and are tasked solely with investigating deaths not actually seen by licensed physicians. Both have significant legal power to convene grand juries or inquests, which in turn have considerable power to compel public officials, cops, etc.[2] to appear, testify, provide documents, etc. In my area, all uses of lethal force by police are investigated by the DA’s office and by investigators borrowed from police departments, except for the ones where the officers involved actually worked. It’s not always a perfect system, but my mayor/chief/sheriff/governor/etc have basically zero power to improperly influence their findings.
[2] and people who are not public officials as well. Is that what Perry means by ‘judicial conscription’ or was he only referring to jury duty?
Well, all you know for sure is that the government lies. You don’t know what they lie about or how much they lie. The only people who know the truth are the propagators of the lies. See how your defence of the Chinese propaganda machine is an impossible feat?
I wouldn’t say it “conceals” history, I’d say it “completely alters history to suit the propaganda purposes of the CCP.”
So? What can the Chinese discuss with any certainty, if their access to the truth is limited – as you conceded earlier?
I’m not claiming to know China more than the Chinese, however I’m claiming that there are huge gaps and many, many distortions in even an educated Chinese person’s knowledge and understanding of historical and current events – including this recent trouble in Tibet.
How did you find out about these cases of Western media dishonesty? Through the Chinese state media? Well, it must be true, then! Look, you earlier admitted that the Chinese government lies to you. What makes you think they are telling the truth now?
Ah, that’s a bunch of crap about “show[ing] their energy”. I’ll tell you exactly why the government has prevented anyone else covering the Lhasa riots; the government wants 100% control over the “truth” of what is happening there. Trouble is, by doing this it is acting extremely suspiciously – and let’s face it, when it comes to violent clampdowns on dissenters, the Chinese government does have form. Remember 1989, anybody? And by making itself a “truthmaker” in Tibet, the Chinese government is acting as though it has something to hide. And therein lies the most devastating point against your argument. The Chinese government tells the Chinese people the “truth” about what’s going on in Lhasa, then refuses to let anyone else verify its “truth”. Why is the Chinese government acting as though it has something to hide? Answer: because it has something to hide.
You know nothing of the true motives or behaviour of those protesting, and you will never know. You have been raised on an information diet of lies and there is no reason to think that what you’re being fed now is any different. I’m sorry, but you need to develop some much-needed logic independent of CCTV, Xinhua and the Peoples’ Daily. Reconsider what’s happening in Lhasa; you admit your government is routinely dishonest in the information it delivers to you, yet for some reason you’re happy to buy the propaganda the government is putting out regarding this event in its entirety. Why is this? You have a serious case of cognitive dissonance, my friend.
Occasionally, teams of chinese join our Counter-Strike servers and proceed to ‘ghost’ – i.e. cheat – and therefore annoy existing players.
We have now found a way to get rid of them. Everyone changes their name to ‘Tibet’ or ‘Free Tibet’, or some other variation, and spams their console channels with the same message.
They usually leave then.
If only in real life it were so easy.
Is it legal for the whites to be in the America or Australia?
Stopping call them “pacifist”. Burning cars & shops, killing civilians and police is not pacifist’s deed.
I call bullshit too. Before this riot, the college students in China trust AFP, CNN, etc. more than ChiCom’s propaganda. However, what these “objective” media did ruined their reputation amont Chinese students. Look at the following two picture:
http://kyxk.net/bbscon.php?board=CASExpress&id=847087&ap=697
http://kyxk.net/bbscon.php?board=CASExpress&id=847087&ap=34812
Yes, they report what they see, but they also neglect some facts “occasionally”.
You might think that Chinese are blind of facts. You are wrong, although official media are still disgusting, civillians use their digital cameras and the Internet to spead the facts. So, when AFP, CNN reported the facts with a blinded eye, they become joking in China.
When a person is ignorant, the debate will become difficult. I hope you can visit China to see if what you hear and imagine is true.
You are ignorant not only about China, but also about history. Where are the ever massive Tasmanians and Indians now? I have to doubt which teacher you have been taught by.
The most absurd excuse I have seen. Do all you westerners think so?
btw, I hate ChiCom’s GFW, it make me difficult to debate with you. Anyway, it is Cisco’s production.
To JezB:
There do be many dishonest players, I apologize for their behavior to you.
“You don’t know what they lie about or how much they lie.”
Maybe I don’t know all, because I don’t have enough time to read so many books. I think I know most of them. I disagree with China government in many affairs, including the Olympics, which likes a political movement. However, again, I stand on the government side towards the Tibet riot.
From these western media itself. Look at folowing two pictures:
http://kyxk.net/bbscon.php?board=CASExpress&id=847087&ap=697
http://kyxk.net/bbscon.php?board=CASExpress&id=847087&ap=34812
I admit that it is better that western journalists enter Lhasa. However, please don’t call them “independent journalists”, they have their nationalities and they also have bias.
Thanks, but i don’t believe this trash if news has relation with politics. My friends in Lhasa witnessed the riot. What they told me is more reliable than CNN etc. this time
Explan a few sentences about the two photos: In news artices, AFP and CNN etc. all used the small one, which hided the rioters who threw stones at the truck.
Incredibly half of the British blogosphere are whining on about Brown’s office staff today whilst we ignore Miliblogger’s hand wringing over this.
How “more dilligence”? What exactly do you mean by that statement, apart from my interpretation that ‘more diligent’ means “next time we’ll make sure that the internet is switched off properly and all foreigners are safely removed from the area”
Erm, since you do just happen to bring up India, can I therefore point you towards a certain Sino-Indian confrontation in 1962. Funnily enough, that was fought in South Tibet and involved a little more than “ruining temples”.
Voices of China,
Do please STFU. The English crown has a claim on parts of France. Now, much though I’d like to plant the Cross of St George upon the land of Sacha Distel (and his backing group – The Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys) I think it would be generally seen as being quixotic at best.
Water and bridges, you see? I couldn’t give a monkey’s if the Ming dynasty claimed Tibet.
Dave,
Look, it’s very simple. Poland, the Czechs, yes even the Baltics left the Sov sphere of interference over a decade ago. Now it is a matter between them and the US Gov what exactly is based there. The fact it’s spitting distance from Putin 2’s patio is irrelevant. If the Sovs want the right to tell Poland what to do they shouldn’t have lost the Cold War now should they?
I may be over simplifying here but it seems to me that far too many people on this planet don’t know that they’ve lost and that losing carries consequences. Bad consequences. Putin 2 is still fecking about like some kind of bargain-basement Ivan Grozny and the Arabs, despite having the shi’ite kicked out of them ad nauseum by Israel still bluster and chuck rockets at Sderot and Ashkelon. You’ve lost guys! Give it up!
OK, it’s probably our fault. We have lost the taste for decisive, gob-smacking, it’s the end of the world as we know it operations and some people need to be beat ’till they know they’re beat.
Someone mentioned understatements. How about this one. Hirohito addressed Japan to Surrender in ’45. He’d just had (in the last week) two cities totalled with atom bombs and 16 square miles of Tokyo napalmed by 1500 B-29s and this is what he said, “The situation in the Pacific has progressed in a way not necessarily to the advantage of the Empire of Japan”.
Hell’s teeth.
China is an Empire.
Various Emperors, at various times, claimed “the whole Earth” was subject to them – that does not mean that their claims to Tibet or anywhere else should be accepted.
Different cultures and nations have inhabited parts of what is now “China” in past times, but the Han have proved so successful in wiping them out that their very existance is often forgotten (which is why archaeology is a sensitive subject in China – to dig up civilizations that were neither culturally or ethnically Chinese is not looked kindly upon). But this does not mean that the westward expansion of the Han has to include Tibet, although Han colonists already outnumber Tibetians in their own country.
Nor have the Han always been united. There have been periods LASTING FOR CENTURIES when there have been different Kingdoms (with many cultural differences and RULED RATHER DIFFERENTLY) among the people who are considered Han Chinese and who use Chinese characters to write their different languages.
It is no accident that many of the inventions associated with the Chinese come from these periods of “disunity” – unified tyranny is not productive in terms of human progress.
And there is also the nature of the regime that now rules China.
To be blunt:
Mao was the worst mass murderer of human history – a regime that honours his name is evil, no matter how low its taxes on business enterprises.
And such a regime (that honours great evil doers) could take those business enterprises by force one day – after all Emperors in the past stole such things as iron mills from their owners (thus pushing China from period of progress into periods of decline).
The regime does not regard private property as a good thing in its self – it is just a method of gaining wealth. And this wealth is for the purpose of building up military strength – and should the wind change the private enterprises will go as if they had never been.
And remember what the military strength is for.
It is not “defensive” – for if the Americans were going to attack they would have attacked long ago (as until a few years ago the regime had no long range nuclear missiles capable of reaching American cities).
Those who say “it is only Tibet – it has nothing to do with us” make a mistake. For the old dream of “the whole Earth” has not gone away – it may not be for today, or for tomorrow, but it is the objective of the regime of the People’s Republic of China.
“The civilians are a weapon.”
Could you discuss with some common sense? I hate China’s ruining civil rights, but as to the Tibet riot, I stand on the China government, because these rioters are almost terrorists!
The government of China does not like people who disagree with the Communist party.
They have a history of using force to crush those who disagree, even when the people who disagree with the communist part express the disagreement peacefully and respectfully. The rest of the world saw this in 1989, and again in 1999, after people who practiced Falun Gong protested because members had been beaten in Tianjin. This is not new.
If you think I am lying, go to Tiananmen square on June 4th with a flower in your hand and see what happens to you. Do not bring a sign. Do not say anything to anyone. Just carry a flower in your hand.
You know the government of China does not tell the truth sometimes. They are not telling the truth now.
CNN, the NYT, and AFP are not telling the entire story, either, but they cannot tell the entire story because the government of China has ordered all western journalists to leave Tibet. The communist party does not want foreign eyes to see what the army is going to do to people in Tibet. If the government of China was going to use non-lethal methods to put down a small riot, they would not care who saw it.
China will never leave Tibet because they have tons of nukes there, the highest launch pad on the planet. It’s why they invaded in the 50’s.
Well thank you various voices of China for dropping in.
Do come again.
I’m sure you will learn from, and be able to impart, a lot to our little discussions.
We who regularly post here, are no lovers of our Media either. Quite the opposite. We take the laser beam of scrutiny to their every utterance.
But here is an article from todays London Times.
Any comeback?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3571804.ece
Actually, the Falun Gong are onto something interesting, if, as I’ve heard, they advocate deep breathing. Not all of the body’s circulatory systems have autonomic pumps. Some systems need body movement in order to have the circulation happen. The midriff diaphragm makes for a pretty powerful pump, and habit can have a big long-term effect.
I think Communist China hired comics to pretend to be propagandists, in order to discredit the propagandists, so as to be able to point to a conspiracy to disrespect mass murder and other superlative Eastern achievements. 🙂
Another sock puppet from China:
1) Are you then denying that Mao both organized the murder of large numbers of people? Are you denying that he nailed prepubescent girls semi-regularly? Are you denying that your regime still celebrates this mass-murdering pedophile as somewhere between hero and demigod?
2) Do those two pictures have a point or a purpose? One still, and an apparent crop from that same still, mean very little in the absence of context. What did the photographer intend to convey with them? I see people running across the street in front of two trucks in the first one, and a number of people on the side of the street in the second.
3) You admit for yourself that your boss lies regularly. Nevertheless, you insist that he’s telling the truth today despite the fact that there is no evidence independent of your say-so. Or is there?
4) What the fuck are you on about talking about Indians and Tasmanians? Also, what relevance have they to this discussion?
5) How do 13 people die due to so-called non-lethal force employed by your army? As mentioned above, I’m a career police officer and an instructor in the use of firearms and less-lethal weapons, and I don’t see that being possible. That is, unless Reuters lied and the soldiers are simply shooting people with real rifles and real ammunition. Which brings us to…
5A) If the western media is in a massive conspiracy to make your regime look bad, then why would Reuters lie in order to make your regime look good?
See for yourself if you still think that the protests were peaceful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFY1j8qs9mk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfnBVKrzX6Y&feature=related
Tibetans should be able to demand what the want, but not through these demonstrations of ethnic violence. Supporting human rights is one thing, support these actions are another. The property owners and civilians attacked have rights too, don’t they? And I don’t believe that anyone has a right to attack the rights of others despite whatever justification. Then again, we do live in an-eye-for-an-eye society. You only need to look no further than Afghanistan.
World politics is not an easy issue. There are always two sides to a story. Do I believe that US-led, British supported invasion on Iraq was justified by the mysterious weapons of mass destruction? I don’t know. Were innocent civilians killed as collateral damage? Should government be allowed to censor information or tap your phone line in the name of national security? Human rights seem to be a relative issue when you think about it. There is always trade-off between human rights and national security, no matter what country you’re in.
I don’t think there is any religion that condones the use of violence to advance religious beliefs. I think there are three possible justifications for religion-inspired violence:
1) The religion has low moral principles and is probably more of a cult;
2) There is something misinterpreted about the teachings of the religion; or
3) Religion is only used as an excuse for the violence.
To justify the images you see as efforts to strive for religious freedom is a way of beautifying it, but a weak one at best.
I had respected Dalai Lama and had the privilege to attend a seminar when he made a visit to the university I went to in Canada. I thought he was humorous, easy-going, and wise. However, after the recent events, to see him denying any prior awareness of the unfolding events in Tibet casts serious doubt over his credibility. I give him the benefit of doubt on this though. But what is more confusing is that his reaction is not to apologize for the Tibetan monks’ participation in the riot. What accountability does he have as the political and religious leader? Western governments have came out and urge restraint by Chinese government in handling the rioters. So far I have not heard Dalai Lama urge restraint among his followers, which raise questions about his true involvement and intents.
There really nothing more that I want to add to this lively discussion, so I’ll do the haters a favor and remove myself from this forum. Clearly, I represent a minority of views on this forum and not really welcomed by some.
I think you are missing the point I am making. Tibet is under colonial occupation by China and whatever violence is directed against the occupying power is just fine by me. I am not the Dalai Lama. I am really all for violence when it is directed at a repressive state and its supporters.
Clarify something:
1. I am not a sockpupet, I always post using same ID.
2. As you have mentioned Mao and Tian’anmen, OK, my opinion is that Mao was a tyrant, which is agreed by many young people in China but also disagreed by more old man and some left wing young man. Official comments about Mao is that he made mistakes but contributed more to China. I disagree this comment. About Tian’anmen, it is a forbidden topic in public. Few Chinese regard that government was right then. However, it will take long time for government to admit its mistake. I don’t know when. It took more than 100 years for the USA to admit its racial prejudice against the blacks. Maybe China also need so much time. You know, this is politics.
3. About Fa-lun Gong. It pretends to be a peaceful religion in western countries. I think you need to know what it had done in China before 1999. One example, it didn’t advise sick members to look for a doctor or take medicines. Amazing? And it also has political goals, even onverturning the current government. We Chinese know the current government is not perfect, but if it was replaced by FLG, it would be much worse.
4.I was a little agitated days before. I apologize for my rude words.
Gee, the Falun Gong keep sounding better and better. Propaganda aside (occasional trials where corrupt judges and court officials lie to jurors about their right to nullify, resulting in a media spash), their comparison with Christian Scientists casts them in a positive light. No iatrogenic illnesses, no faddish nutrition advice, no premature pill-popping, probably no brain-dead vaccines (for illnesses that the body benefits from fighting).
It could be far worse; they could advocate obeying doctors!
Oh boy, I’m enjoying this from the sidelines, yes I am. What a lot of hoo hah from everybody and it involves me not in the slightest, how much more fun on a Friday afternoon. Good Friday afternoon, no less.
1. Possession is 9/10s of the law. Like it or not, this is the basis for power. Why do you think the governments don’t like the idea of armed citizens? It’s because if you can enforce your will over a tract of land (and presumably all its inhabitants), you own it. Conversely, you cannot be said to own *anything* if you cannot enforce your will on it – and enforcing your will on someone pointing a loaded sawn-off shotgun at your ‘enforcers’ is iffy at best.
2. Personally, I say the Tibetans should stay Tibetans. If they seriously hate being called Chinese, China should relinquish.
3. Having said that, I don’t have a horse in this race. I am having a great deal of schadenfreude, but surely you cannot blame me for that!
Okay, headed off for service. have fun, folks
Oh sockpuppet, my sockpuppet! (The term has a definition. I’m pretty confident in how well it fits here.)
1. I didn’t mention Falun Gong. However, since you brought it up, how is it any of your or the Party’s business if they don’t want to go to doctors?
1A. So, on what planet is it a crime or even wrong to think that a government should be replaced, or replaced with nothing at all? To quote something fundamental in my country’s history: Governments…deriv[e] their just powers from the consent of the governed. Evidently, Falun Gong, a bunch of Tibetans, and others, either never consented or have withdrawn their consent. So, do you then claim ownership of actual human beings, to prevent them from leaving or evicting you?
2. I didn’t bring up the Square. However, since you brought it in…what happens to people who carry flowers there on June 4th of each year? And I’ll point out, where is the public discussion of the state-sponsored mass murder of 6-4-89? I can think of two analogous situations in the last century in the US, and both were the subject of media and public outcry within about ten minutes.
3. What could Mao have possibly contributed that would come anywhere near balancing the murders of one hundred million people and the rape of untold numbers of preteen girls? I don’t think that the Second Coming of Jesus and the building of the New Jerusalem in the Kansas City suburbs would justify such.
And you’ll remember the questions I originally asked, which you’ve evaded:
1) The two photos from AFP, one being an apparent crop of the other, and neither set in context. What was your point? What did you try to claim that they represented?
2) You’ve already admitted that the ChiCom government regularly lies. Why should we believe either them, or your claims about their current truthfulness?
3) Tasmanians and Indians: Hagame el favor de explicarme.
4) Two days ago, the body count in Lhasa was either 16 or 60, depending upon who one believes. How do even 16 people die in under a week due to the application of less-lethal technologies? That’s basically impossible, unless your government is lying about the use of less-lethal weapons and is in fact merely having soldiers shoot people with regular rifles and regular ammunition instead. Alas, since there is no independent media, we would have to take their word. See the previous question about why that won’t work.
Perry de Havilland:
Perry, you’ve just identified a topic that’s been bothering me for my entire adult life. In a few days or so, check you email. I’ll have something about that, that I respectfully suggest belongs on the front page.
However, much we disagree about Tibet I honour “Another voice from China” for saying (truthfully) that Mao was a Tyrant.
I am not being scarastic – Another voice from China deserves high honour for saying what he has said about Mao.
And if anyone thinks that I am being too loose with my praise, they should try reading “Mao: The Untold Story” in public in the P.R.C. (or even being found with it or other works that tell the truth about Mao).
For those who hold that the expansion of the P.R.C. to the west is confined to Tibet:
Remember the attack upon India in 1962 – the land taken then has not been returned.
And the P.R.C., whilst claiming friendship towards India, still has less than friendly interest in India and other lands.
you know wht? u r not in china! do not judge others! stupid people