Today’s news has two splendid examples of how holding a ‘high office’ (in a company, institution or government) is in no way an indication of intelligence or good judgement (and therein lies the reason I am in favour of having as small a state as possible).
We have just seen the Royal Navy and UK government suffer a P.R. debacle at the hands of Iran, so if there was even the faintest glimmer of wit to be found within the Ministry of Defence, one would assume that they would be working to make sure this whole affair passes through the news cycle and flushes down the memory hole as quickly as possible. Right?
Hell no. Against the usual practice (and therefore involving a proactive decision by the Minister to ‘do something’ rather than just shrug his shoulders and say “sorry, my hands are tied, it’s the regulations, you see.”), for some inexplicable reason the MOD has said the fifteen former captives can sell their stories to the press, thereby guaranteeing this whole event will stay ‘live’ for as long as possible. Very clever. Clearly this government has passed mere ineptitude and moved into its terminal senile dementia stage.
The second one is not an indication of a spectacular (almost comical) lack of political acumen on display but rather an example of a truly moronic moral calculus. We see senior British clerics berating Britain for not thanking the Iranian state for returning the servicemen and woman they took from Iraqi waters at gunpoint. I am sure there is some commandment in the Bible about the victims of a crime thanking the unrepentant perpetrators of the crime but I cannot off-hand think where that is.
It is moments like this that I am almost moved to ‘thank God’ (yes, I am being ironic) for the fact I managed to shake off the mental shackles of youth and become entirely God and Church-free.
I think Colonel Tim Collins has it about right:
Col Tim Collins, who led the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment in the 2003 invasion of Iraq, said: “It’s a close call as to which organisation is in the deepest moral crisis – the Church or the Ministry of Defence.”
Indeed.
I am sure there is some commandment in the Bible about the victims of a crime thanking the unrepentant perpetrators of the crime but I cannot off-hand think where that is.
There may or may not be any specific injunction to that effect, but the same nauseating spirit of limp surrender to injustice is explicit in the call to love one’s enemies and turn the other cheek when struck. Think about what that would actually mean in the current situation.
If I were a bully and a thug like Ahmadinejad, my fondest wish would be that my prospective victims should take the letter and spirit of the New Testament fully to heart, as those British clerics would have their national government do.
There’s a very good reason why no society in the real world has ever actually based its practices on the prescriptions of the New Testament: it would be suicidal. You’re justified in being grateful at having freed your mind from such absurdities.
Is he assuming the Iranian decision-makers in fact believed their waters had been violated? It does seem likely that he is. When he goes on to say “if that is the case they are putting forward…”, the conditional suggests scepticism, but nothing later on builds on it. And of course, putting over a case and believing something are two different things.
My point is that the Bible really does not urge people to thank the unrepentant.
We have just seen the Royal Navy and UK government suffer a P.R. debacle at the hands of Iran, so if there was even the faintest glimmer of wit to be found within the Ministry of Defence, one would assume that they would be working to make sure this whole affair passes through the news cycle and flushes down the memory hole as quickly as possible. Right?
Wrong. The Royal Navy has not suffered a P.R. debacle at the hands of Iran – it has scored a significant victory – and the MOD were right to allow the fifteen former captives to sell their stories to the press, thereby guaranteeing this whole event will stay ‘live’ for as long as possible.
Has it not occurred to you that this whole incident may well have been engineered by a British mole working in the IRG?
The SIS has infiltrated agents into the top echelon of every enemy this country has faced over the last 50 years – from IRGUN(Link) to the IRA(Link).
If the government now decides to do a ‘Jimmy Carter’ well, that is to be expected, but don’t blame the MOD.
I agree with your comments on the Church though. Moonbats.
I think you vastly over estimate the bozos who run this country and I have yet to meet anyone face to face who actually thinks this incident did not leave the UK and RN looking weak and inept. If you think this was a UK success, I would hate to think with a loss must look like.
It appears that the Ministry’s permission for the former hostages to sell their stories to the press has been rescinded.
Perry
Does the Church ever take into account blame?
If i kidnap a member of his family, hold them hostage for two weeks, but then graciously release them over Easter, am i a better man than those who call for my arrest?
I don’t think it was a great loss.
a) There was nothing our troops could do. They were in an inflatable raft with small arms only up against six patrol boats with heavy machineguns and autocannon. To resist would be suicidal. To make out they were cowards somehow would be to imply every PoW ever taken was a coward. Also half of those picked up were sailors not marines, they aren’t tough hombre groundpounder types, they press buttons and fire missiles or play with engines.
b) …in any case, re. PoWs, we’re not at war with Iran. Our troops RoE are designed to avoid escalation. IMHO thats as it should be, its for the politicians to decide to start a war with Iran if they want. Or not. That rules out shooting them even if it wasn’t suicidal.
c) Nobody believes TV confessions under duress anymore except for the most braindead Jihadi, whose opinion we don’t care about anyway. Even the spineless EU demanded the hostages back. To my own shock. Iran caved in the end, not us, and their Nutter Quotient has now nudged up some,giving us more casus belli against them, should we decide we need it.
My only issues with the event are the cockup over their rights to sell the story – or not.
Its not exactly our finest hour but neither is it some horrible humiliation either. End result : Iran got some useless propaganda videos, in exchange for Iran looking more like a rogue state.
“Nobody believes TV confessions under duress anymore except for the most braindead Jihadi, whose opinion we don’t care about anyway.”
Well, maybe you should care because these braindead jihadis are in your city and they like blowing things up.
“Even the spineless EU demanded the hostages back.”
How nice of them. And to think it only cost the UK billions of pounds in transfer payments and a significant transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.
This whole thing is based around the values of Diana, values which now permeate the whole public sphere in Britain, and values which should never have been allowed out of the nursery, which is the only place they are fit to be found.
Oh, I care about the braindead Jihadis existence, but I don’t care about whatever makes them jump up and down. Its all irrevelant fantasy bullshit, what they believe, anyway. Now they can believe in coerced ‘confessions’ as well as child molestation. Whatever. Shoot em, deport em, you won’t persuade them.
As for the EU, I loathe that institution, voted UKIP in the last two chances to do so and will do it again. On the other hand, when even that gutless body condemns Iran for something it made me perk up some.
In any case, its no victory for Iran, is it.
No victory?
Let’s assess.
The reputed Iranian terror kingpin in Iraq was released by the US.
The UK has ceased maritime inspections in the Gulf.
Both the EU and UN have proved to the Iranians that they will not act to stop such behaviour.
The British have proved to the Iranians that they will not act to stop such behaviour.
All in all, a rather successful little foray, not to mention whatever propaganda value Tehran achieved in showing the Muslim world that the British armed forces are effete and useless. And this last point is the gift that keeps on giving as the UK political and military leadership sink ever deeper into ridiculousness with every passing day.
From banning the Union Jack on prison warden uniforms to the mere fact that Ken Livingston can be elected mayor of London, it’s pretty clear that the UK has ceased to be a serious nation. I think this most recent debacle shows one of the country’s last holdouts to imbecility — the armed forces — has now succumbed.
And what beckons on the horizon?
Gordon Brown and David Cameron.
I think you vastly over estimate the bozos who run this country… [snip]
The SIS is not ‘running this country’ – don’t confuse them with the politicians who often thwart them and ruin everything.
It is a simple fact of history that both the SIS and the DIA have for many years been instrumental in the finance and control of hundreds of agents acting within the upper echelons of organisations and states hostile to Western values and interests – that fact is well-known .
It is the Jimmy Carters of this world who pose the greatest threat – the facilitators, the compromisers, the good people who sell-out, or, through gross philosophical incompetence, unwittingly aid and protect man’s enemies – Ayn Rand was always adamant that the White Russians were far more evil than the Reds, and she was right.
I have yet to meet anyone face to face who actually thinks this incident did not leave the UK and RN looking weak and inept. If you think this was a UK success, I would hate to think with a loss must look like.
What have the theocrats got from this?
We don’t know what happened behind the scenes – all the underlying motives or whether threats or incentives were issued by the USA or the UK but there are some things we can say for sure.
Militarily, the UK and RN are no weaker today than they were last month – seven Trafalgar-class submarines armed with enough conventional weapons to destroy Iran’s entire industrial capacity remain at our disposal. The future aircraft carrier programme [CVF] is now less likely to be shelved.
Diplomatically, the UK is as strong as ever, we have adhered to the letter of International Law – the Iranians, on the other hand, have trashed not only the procedure but the very substance of International Law [and Civil Law too]. The Persians may try to sound like Greeks but they just can’t help acting like Persians – everyone knows that even though some may have forgotten: in that case, they’ve just had a reminder.
The British economy has not been weakened – the Iranian economy, already a basket-case – has had its assets frozen by the UK and Italy and tougher UN sanctions have exploded in the face of Ahmadinejad, despite his last-minute attempts to fly to the UN and persuade those knuckleheads otherwise.
Jimmy Carter, John Kerry, Jack Straw, and the Iraq Study Group may still think we need to treat Iran as an ally but they’ll probably be less vocal about it now.
The released hostages can now engage in some very un-PC educational opportunities and give Joe Public an inside view of what life is really like in Iran – at least they could until the halfwits in the government banned them.
Well, haven’t the theocrats gained a propaganda victory in the eyes of their own masses?
Who cares what they think?
Their opinions are of no consequence to us or anyone else – the only people who might be bothered are those who think Iran has some kind of political legitimacy -it has none.
A theocratic state like Iran is not, as some allege, similar to Western societies of the past, France in the 17th century, or England in the Middle Ages.
England in the Middle Ages, was as good as it gets. There were no industrial or technological models for us to follow, no science, no art, no law, no literature, just a few ruins and some fragments from the Ancients.
The modern world we had to invent.
But the Iranians have that for free, all around them – they don’t have to invent or discover anything, they can copy us, a little behind in some respects, or, a little in front, like the Japanese, but in either case, on a parallel course guided by a set of common principles concerning reality, cause and effect, the rule of law, the benefits of trade, and the value of peace.
But the Iranians don’t want that – they turned against all that in 1979.
Their society exists not in parallel to ours but at a tangent. Their world, though religious(Link), is actually like a psychopath’s version of Harry Potter – not only beheadings stoning, burnings, mutilations, and child-brides, but also astrology, magic, sorcery, witches, angels, curses, genies, charms, talking trees, speaking rocks, magical cups, and winged horses.
We don’t have to worry about their propaganda: the word ‘propaganda’ has hardly any meaning in such a bizarre context.
The saddest part of this incident isn’t anyone’s perception of the outcome but the chance that it represented.
After WW2 General Mac Arthur once described the Japanese as a nation of 12-year-old adolescents.
Thanks to the RN we had an opportunity to teach some other naughty children an important lesson.
Our government has now decided to let that opportunity pass.
Again.
Whatever reasons the 15 hostages have for wanting to sell their stories to the press then what has that got to do with the MoD? Apart from them retaining the right to check any story prior to publication for reasons of national security, as we often hear with those truly dreadful “xxx is a former SAS officer” type of books, the MoD should just stay out of the whole thing and get back to doing what it does best – i.e. buying up rejected Czech 12.7 rounds and shipping them to Afghanistan or making sure that your average 20 year old MoD civil servant gets a higher wage than a warrant officer with 15 years service.
It does make one sick to see CoE types giving analyngous to various Islamists including Madman Inadinnerjacket. Of course this is not terribly surprising because as near as I see it the CoE, like the BBC, is a bastion of 60s-tinged leftwingism. Its not the Church of England is the Church of Marx.
Of course there are those who hate Jews and are willing to bond with anyone who believes likewise.
A couple of points: first of all, chaplains have traditionally had an important part to play in the British armed services. Regiments have them, as do ships and the RAF. I wonder how servicemen would feel if they thought that one of these folk more or less welcomed the “generosity” of a rogue state in “handing back” people who were kidnapped in the first place? If I were a self-respecting soldier, airman or sailor, I would tell this cleric where he can put his sentiments, and in short order.
These things all add up. I regard the Anglican Church, or at least a slightly idealised form of it, as part of the mental furniture of an Englishman. (The Scots and the Welsh have their more non-conformist religions). The Church has, at its best, been an uplifting, civilising force in British affairs, and that includes the armed services. I think we have now reached the point where disestablishment of the CoE has to happen.
How sad: within a couple of days, we have seen two quasi-state bodies, the BBC, and the Church, become part of the adversarial culture. I fear it is time they were both privatised, cast off and left to fend for themselves.
Final point: The Royal Navy comes out of this very badly. Why, for a start, were not decent, shallow-water craft used, with armour, to patrol the area in question? The navy has been using pathetic rubber boats with hardly any protection. We have decent small vessels in mothballs in Portsmouth, etc. Why not actually use them?
If this affair does not lead to some very nasty courts of inquiry, then it should. In the days of Nelson, people were shot or banished in disgrace for less.
The navy comes out of it very badly, but then the navy only has the ships that we pay for, and we don’t pay for much.
As for Nelson’s day, there might have been charges of cowardice brought against both the captain of marines (unlikely) and the captain of the Cornwall (more likely).
However, while much moral value was placed on bravery beyond the call of duty in the past, the military benefits are pretty uncertain. One admires the bravery of infantry assaults on heavily fortified positions, but it’s still a pointless and stupid thing to do. The large number of VCs awarded during WWI does not reflect well on that conflict, or the tactics employed.
You misunderstand the Church. The Church of England are Church first, England second. Let’s see what’s really bothering them:
“Bishop Nazir-Ali said the Iranians had scored “something of a coup” by appealing to their religious traditions in freeing the hostages. In sharp contrast, Britain had failed to refer to any higher values.”
The Catholic Church have done exactly the same (apart from that very brief testing of the waters at Regensburg where the Pope found himself standing all alone). They’re not about to launch any attacks on Islam if it damages the rather shaky position of religion in general. They’re certainly not going to do it while the secular authority stands on the sidelines while they do all the fighting. They want respect for religion just because it is religion to continue, and they want to perpetuate the idea of religion always being a force for good. And to be fair to them, they will also be concerned for the safety of Christians in Muslim countries, and don’t especially want more nuns getting shot, churches burned down, and children getting crucified or beheaded by Muslim mobs.
There are also a fair number who are actually convinced by the Muslim propaganda – and while there is certainly a leftish tinge to the CoE, I think its more to do with their general supporting-the-underdog, trying-to-see-the-best-in-people approach. They know our side far too well to see the best in us, but they’re not encouraged by their beliefs to be aggressively sceptical of Muslim sob stories of how they’re being victimised by Western Imperialists. This is the major problem with the general ignorance of Islam in this country.
(And never mind all this nonsense about nuking Tehran, if you really want to deal the Mullahs a blow, teach everyone in the West what Islam really teaches.)
As for the MOD, I think “trying to make sure this whole affair passes through the news cycle and flushes down the memory hole as quickly as possible” is exactly what they’re up to. They know perfectly well the story is going to get out – they might be able to pressure the Navy people to shut up (although given how upset they probably are about what people are saying, I wouldn’t bet on it), but not their families and friends. If you can’t stop something, then permit it in a way that gives you some control over the damage.
I think some of it is a sense of fair play, too. These people have been crucified in the media, and on the internet too. Accusations have piled on thick and fast, and they will probably live with the notoriety for decades to come. And they’re not allowed to answer back? Are they not allowed to present any ‘case for the defence’ in this media trial? Even if their case is weak, and the jury has already decided they’re guilty, they surely have a right to present it.
If you think they shouldn’t talk about their jobs out of respect for the dignity of the service, then you shouldn’t talk about them, out of the same respect. If we can talk about and judge the actions of individuals, with impacts on their personal lives and not just their official personas, then they should be able to talk about it too. And for that matter, I think the military in general ought to be a lot more open about what its doing, and while I’m not in favour of people making lots of extra money out of the work they do for the nation, especially if what they say does the nation no good, I am in favour of people being able to do so to inform and educate, to write the history, and to put their side. It is a form of free speech and open government.
I think its more to do with their general supporting-the-underdog, trying-to-see-the-best-in-people approach.
Surely tis irrelevant why they are being sycophantic to Islamists just that they are doing it? They need to be stopped by giving moral and financial support to Islamists and their ilk.
Which means nothing because SIS could be made up of 007 style super-agents but as they do not break wind without being told to do so by the people who do indeed run this country, what matters is not SIS but the wisdom of the people who task them.
They have made the UK look weak and incompetent.
No doubt but as we do not know, it has no propaganda value.
Just how many cruise missiles do you think we have? To ‘destroy’ the industry of a nation you need to deliver a great deal of explosive power to a large number of targets. Do not kid yourself, the only people capable of destroying, rather than just inconveniencing, Iran’s industrial capacity with conventional weapons is the United States.
We’ll see.
You have GOT to be kidding!!!!! Let me tell you want happened: the UK went to the UN and was told to fuck off by Russia and China. Did you actually see what the UK wanted and then what they actually got? It was a humiliation and was widely reported as such by the world press.
The UK then went to their ‘friends’ in the EU, who made it clear they would say whatever the UK wanted but if they wanted to threaten sanctions, forget it, Iran is too economically important to them.
It was an object lesson in how weak Britain’s hand was diplomatically.
So what? All Iran has to do to keep its economy running is keep pumping.
All of which had nothing to do with this incident but was related to their nuclear programme. And what has that done? Caused Iran to announce yesterday they are producing fissionable material on an ‘industrial scale’
John, I’m sorry but I think you are in denial regarding the fact the UK took a political hit over this. It was not a catastrophe but it was a failure at every level and that is how it has played in the world’s press.
Try telling that to Oliver North.
We did not act weakly or incompetently. We behaved lawfully. The Iranians did not. The Iranians just look like nutjobs yet again.
And who cares about the world press? What matters is our moral sense of ourselves – this problem isn’t going to go away soon.
Of course, the EU and the UN are slimey creeps but who cares about them?
They’ve been helping the Iranians with everything from sniper rifles to air defence and nuke technology. They will never make anything more than a few lame gestures. Screw them.
Mine their ports and send a gift of 50 Tomahawks as an aperitif. Buy the following courses off the menu.
It’s a bluff, Perry. They are rattled. They were losing and they knew it.
Unfortunately, it ended too quickly for us to milk the maximum benefit.
We were given a chance but we blew it.
Back to the Phoney War we go.
John
We behaved lawfully.
And the bullies laughed at us. When the crooks laugh at the coppers what value the law then?
Our ‘partners’ in the matter did nothing for us. Nothing. This in fact demonstrates how worthless international law can be. There is no one to enforce it. The EU and UN were composed of worthless friends, the only relationships worth anything here were those of our gulf allies, the rest showed themselves to be nothing.
Britain has forgotten the truth, she doesn’t have friends, only interests.
You know I never knew UKGov was behind the actions of Oliver North. I learn something new every day.
The Iranian state openly used force against British forces, we did not even openly threaten to use force in return. That is weakness.
By being ‘tactically lackadaisical’ (and I quote a Rear Admiral I know) the RN was clearly incompetent. By assuming the UN or EU would actually provide meaningful political support, the government was clearly incompetent and made themselves look foolish.
And thereby were made to look like someone who pulled a banana out of their pocket when the other guy pulled out a knife. To quote Bush’s sarcastic remark in 2003: “International law? I better call my lawyer”.
And you think that will ‘destroy their industry’? All that will do is formally put us at war with them (which may not actually be a bad thing as we are already in a de facto state of proxy war with them), causing them to fire an anti-ship missile at a single British tanker in the Gulf (and as you seem to think legality matters, mining their ports is an act of war, so there is nothing illegal about them attacking UK shipping or any shipping headed for the UK) and thereby cause Lloyd’s of London to in effect close the Gulf to all shipping.
Was is not you who said you did not want the Iranians deciding when we went to war with them in an earlier comment?
John,
Seeing is in the eye of the beholder. You and me see “the Iranians as nutjobs” but the CoE clearly don’t. In propaganda it’s not what you do, or what you look like you’re doing, it’s what it’s perceived as. I am amazed that quite a number of my fellow countryfolk now regard Mr Asshatjihad as a munificent bearer of gifts and not the total shiite he is and to borrow from commentator Zoe Brain, guilty of an act of “genuine international bastardry” (that amused me Zoe, thanks).
I’m English, btw.
I think we should move heaven and earth to raise all hell within Iran against the mullahs. I hope the double-0s are still up to it but I somehow suspect they were rundown post cold-war.
Personally, I would like the SAS/SIS to abduct Mr Amadinnerplate at some point when he leaves Iran for the UN. Then all we’d need is a camcorder, sow-in-heat pheremones and a boar hepped-up on testosterone but then that’s probably not a good idea really. And YouTube probably wouldn’t carry it anyway. It truly would be an extraordinary rendition though.
Andrew,
“They need to be stopped…” Yes, but the issue is how you do it. In my view the only way is to educate people so that anyone who tries it stands out as an obvious fool. Trying to silence them any other way would be counterproductive. But nobody dares to.
Perry, I agree with everything you’re saying, except to say the only people who think we’re weak (and there are many) are those who think we should have solved this with violence, but the point about the UN and EU not helping us is that it discredits both those organisations in the eyes of the British public, which helps rather if you want to do something else later on they don’t agree with. It would be a good one to be talking about – after the earlier discussion on the human rights council, and after their previous moral degeneracy over Saddam and Hezbollah and the Palestinians, to actually discredit the EU/UN as moral authorities would help us enormously. (It would, of course, be better if they were moral, but we probably have to settle for second best.)
Chris,
“When the crooks laugh at the coppers what value the law then?”
Round my way, the scrawny teenage kids who hang around town looking like trouble often laugh at coppers, and sadly, the coppers are not allowed to kill them, even though as an adult trained in arrest techniques they’re supposed to be capable. It’s obviously because the coppers (and their bosses) are weak, and cowards. And the kids obviously get lots of kudos with their mates because they can push around a copper twice their size and get away with it. What value the law, eh?
Nick,
On the whole, I think I’d prefer not to watch that video. Or even imagine it. The Muslim rave video was a lot better.
I’ll say again; being nasty to them won’t persuade them. Commission massive media coverage showing Iran’s regime, the execution of their hudood laws, womens rights, and the personal consequences of them bombing Muslims in Iraq, in order to really show everybody what they’re like, what their intentions are, what they say in their speeches and holocaust denial conventions and on their TV. Show it all – so everybody knows and nobody can deny it. And so that anyone who gives these people even a moment’s consideration winds up looking like the BNP. And make sure it gets seen and heard across the world.
We know from the Motoons just how scared they are of us being able to honestly discuss and expose their beliefs. If you want to fight them, that’s where they’re vulnerable.
But the problem is that this would bring the fight home. It’s nice to think you could issue a few threats and mine a few harbours far, far away, and everything will be sorted. But to actually take them on will mean fighting them in the fields and in the streets and on the hills of our homelands. The cowardice of politicians is not in refusing to fight them out in Iran, but in refusing to fight back here in Britain and America and Europe. The latter necessitates the former.
They’re cowards because they danced like trained monkeys for the Iranians under minimal duress.
Apparently, they also rule out defending oneself against acts of piracy. Not sure how that counts as escalation. If a rape victim blows away her attacker, has she escalated the situation?
That didn’t stop the crew of the USS Pueblo.
Hey, Infidel, I don’t have to think about what it would mean.
I just turn on the news or pick up a National Daily.
I am utterly
Godsmacked!!!!!
The Church can always fall back upon belief, the Ministry of Defence’s bureaucracy has only their felt-tipped pens to fall back upon, presumably being mightier than the swords anyone in the military would prefer them to fall upon.
I said, “It is a simple fact of history that both the SIS and the DIA have for many years been instrumental in the finance and control of hundreds of agents acting within the upper echelons of organisations and states hostile to Western values and interests – that fact is well-known.”
When you responded the SIS “do not break wind without being told to do so by the people who do indeed run this country,” you missed the point – the successors of Oliver North, Peter Wright, David Shayler, Lester Coleman et al do not work under close political scrutiny – they operate under the 11th. commandment. And turning the enemy is routine procedure.
So no one can say that this incident was the cunning plan of an Iranian super-brain. We don’t know what was behind it. But we can make good use (Link)of it.
It was an opportunity(Link) to address the British public and say, “Look at the Iranians, look what they’ve done, look what they are doing now, aren’t they a bunch of nutjobs – as if an illegal detention wasn’t bad enough, they’ve repeatedly compounded their crimes by soliciting self-incriminating statements, just like the Nazis and the Viet Cong, just like kidnappers and terrorists. What a flakey bunch of tossers – let’s mine their ports [at the very least] to show them a lesson.”
But no, we don’t do that. We start blaming ourselves, we denounce the exemplary conduct of our own service personnel who hourly face death and mutilation, on land and at sea, at the hands of ruthless and blood-thirsty enemies armed by our putative ‘friends.’
Why?
Has the cult of self-loathing and victimology run amok?
Our servicemen haven’t done anything that I wouldn’t have done in their place. I would have eaten shit(Link). I would have kowtowed(Link), but according to some that is effeminacy and cowardice, apparently.
Well, that certainly tells me.
Don’t assume that I approve of International law – I don’t. But we can show the British people that since 1979 Iran hasn’t cared for the process of International law, Criminal Law, Civil Law, diplomatic norms, nor even civilised behaviour and that the UN and the EU are not the solution to this problem.
Industry cannot work without power. Destroying their production of energy would be relatively simple.
Actually no, but whoever said it has a point. The problem that we have is that we are not faced with a choice between war and peace; the choice is a war against an Iran with a nuclear bomb and war with an Iran without a nuclear bomb.
Re: Infidel 753’s “..turn the other cheek when struck. “ comment.
In practice it means “every dog deserves one free bite” – and then you put them down.
JC didn’t say you had to keep turning cheeks indefinitely. The whole point is (unless you count the fundamental cheek) you only have one to turn. If they slap that you deal with it.
Actually the crew of the USS Pueblo relented soon as the North Koreans said they’d shoot them all. Luckily for them the NK’s didnt grok Westerners so well so they didnt notice the sailors flipping them the bird in the propaganda photo… still, they did “confess” in the end.
Apparently the “confessions” from the Brits were laced with words like “apparently” and “allegedly” so strictly speaking they confessed to nothing. ie, they did exactly the same thing as Commander Bucher of the Pueblo.
Except they proceeded directly to the “confession” rather than going through the torture part, which seems merely like good sense to me. I don’t think a manly four week gruesome interrogation is required to show a pair of balls or something, it seems pointless to me. The desire to show manliness is what led to manly men charging, lemming-like, the trench lines of 1915.
As I opined above, I don’t care what the ragheads think so their propaganda is worthless, I believe in the bottom line, and cold logic tells me what they did got them back with the minimum of fuss, ergo, that was the right thing to do. Iran just looks more like a rogue state than it did before. A few would have liked to have seen a few broken bones, black eyes and maybe bullets in brain pans to prove that those sailors were good battle fodder, but I don’t care about that either. I don’t see any loss here.
It is not impossible for a clergyman to say thoughtful things – and not just on theology (although, sadly, a lot of them even make a mess of theology).
After all some clergy have been highly knowledgable on subjects as diverse as economics (for example the great Richard Whately – who was aslo a first rate writer on logic) and fly fishing.
However, it is true that a lot of clergy (and not just Anglican clergy) do not know much about anything and tend to make fools of themselves when they they try and talk about serious matters.
This is why the sermon tends to be the low point of a service.
A religous service can be a profoundly moving a beautiful thing. There should be as much traditional music and high liturgy as possible (if there has to be sermon it should be very short and stick to a few general moral points – plus whoever needs special help in the Parish itself, something the clergyman may actually know something about).
Perhaps the Orthodox have got it about right – although their refusal to allow organ music is sad (they have been considering allowing organs since the 5th century A.D., but I do not expect a judgement any time soon – still they are masters of the human voice, which they hold is the direct gift of God).
The Roman Catholics were fine before Vatican II – when (amongst other things) the universal language was dropped (how can one have a “universal” church without a universal language?) and the priest stopped facing the altar and became obsessed with the congregation instead – as if the service was just about them and not the people in relation to God.
Also there was a mad campaign aganist traditional church music and some churches even started some sort of Calivinist attack on such things as stained glass windows and other sacred art.
Still at least the “Liberation Theology” crowd seem to be dying off – with their belief that “true Christianity” was Marxist athiesm, and “true worship” was planting bombs, kidnapping people for ransom (and so on).
Although the fact that “Newsweek” magazine (seen by me in the local supermarket) has used the decline of Liberation Theology as a reason why the Pope should not attack it (supposedly attacking hurts the feelings of various people in Brazil who are not powerful any more and……) makes me think it is not fully dead.
These things are like vampires – one must behead them and bury them at a cross roads with a stake through their heart in order to be sure.