I wanted something light-hearted for my first post of 2025. Instead, you get this list of Samizdata posts going back more than eleven years. The topic of all of them is the same: rape gangs in Britain whose ethnicity has been described variously as “Asian”, “South Asian”, “Pakistani” and “British Pakistani”. Their religion is Muslim.
From 2022: Rotherham 1400, Telford 1000
From 2020: “With it being Asians, we can’t afford for this to be coming out.”
From 2018: Grooming gangs in Rochdale and Rotherham raped with impunity and you won’t believe why!
From September 2014: Want to blame someone for Rotherham? Lets start with the Guardian…
From August 2014: Politically correct evasiveness fails on its own terms
From 2013: If you do not want to see the BNP vindicated, try not proving them right
And I will finish by quoting the late Niall Kilmartin from a 2022 post that was mostly about something else:
People did not just fear to discuss whether islamicism could have any statistical relationship to grooming in Rotherham; they felt obliged to deny it and hide it. That fact, that cancelling and criminalising of free speech, explains much of how it was that a larger gang had victimised some 1400 girls, not a smaller gang some 14 or so, before people dared to say it was happening. Making it an islamophobic thought-crime to notice didn’t just delay discovering the crimes that an existing gang were committing anyway. It helped the gang grow and persist – helped more of the corruptible rally to the corrupt. It helped the crime rate grow – taught more of the law-abiding to look away. It made the very thing that it forbade you to say more statistically true – because it forbade you to say it. It ensured that Lord Ahmed of Rotherham (who was finally convicted last month of pedophile assaults on two boys and a girl) would be more representative.
This might well be the year Islamophobia is replaced by Islamomisia.
I’m finding this very entertaining. Trump has identified Starmer as an enemy and the “grooming gangs” as his vulnerability. Elon is going to stick the knife in and twist it until something breaks.
Given that he has both the most powerful man on Earth and the richest man on his case Starmer’s best plan is to throw himself down the stairs at number ten, use that as excuse to stand down, and retire to Patagonia to write his memoirs.
Given the amount of men and materiel the US has in the UK they could probably effect a regime change with a text message.
Given the amount of men and materiel the US has in the UK they could probably effect a regime change with a text message.
But who the hell would take over who isn’t also up to their neck in it?
Looks like it’s working in Canada, without resort to the men and materiel. A few tweets, maybe.
Begging the question, “What did Patagonia ever do to you?”
And, the title of that tome?
“When I grow up, I’d like to be a puppet master.”
RLJ:
While much of me prefers that Elon Musk focuses on space enterprise, auto engineering and so on, my view now is that as he has an increasingly public profile, it seems better that he’s using his clout to make life miserable for what Prof Glenn Reynolds calls the gentry class. And if he helps hasten the end of Starmer, great. A question is what comes next.
In Musk’s favour, he’s generally more open and public in his comments than Soros, Gates and Schwab, and enjoys the rough and tumble of controversy more than many of these folk do. He’s a “happy warrior”. That’s another thing that today’s puritan Left cannot deal with.
On the BBC the other day the radio presenter referred to “men of Pakistan origin”. I guess that’s an improvement on “Asian”.
Your comment terrifies me for a few reasons. First, no sovereign nation should have its politics meddled with by outside sources. This particular situation might be welcome. Another might not be. It goes against democracy and the sovereignty of British people.
My other point being if we had a functioning state where we can hold failure to account and have any power over our society, things like this might not ever happen.
What irks me is the idea that “Islamophobia” = “racism”. It is deeply wrong. Because I am a mulim and so are you. Islam is the one true faith for all of humanity since the start. More to the immediate point using the vague term “Asian” is deeply insulting. I fail to recall any hindus, sikhs, jains or buddhists grooming in Rochdale. This is a muslim problem. Islam states that all women who are not coralled in hareems are “uncovered flesh” and “take whatever you right-hand holds, for it is your tilth”. A culture that bans the normal mixing of the sexes and dooms men to marry their cousins in what is essentially a financial arrangement is a culture that will produce perverts. Just this week the Taliban have deemed windows immmoral* because you might see a female doing the dishes and this will lead to “obscene acts”. Is this deeply misogynist? Yes, of course. It is also deeply sexist against men. It denies them any form of relationship with a female outside the family. It also implies that men are all sex-monsters who can’t be tamed so lock-up the lasses! It assumes that all humans (male or female) are governed entirely by the most base urges. It is an appalling view of humanity and unsurprisngly this view produces some appalling individuals.
*When I told my wife she assummed it was because of something Bill Gates had done…
JP,
I agree. I worry that Musk is spreading himself a bit thin… Basically if he just kept to space he could be this century’s er… Tesla! Whilst he is correct about Starmer he might be better leaving it to others. He has more important things to do. He is also in danger of alienating folk because he’s a South African-born US citizen billionaire seen as meddling in UK politricks. We need a Brit to do it.
Stuart Noyes,
I don’t think it is wrong or anti-democratic for Musk to say what he likes about British politics. We in the UK currently have a serious jail over-crowding problem. If we were to jail everyone just I’ve met over the last few years in England who expressed the idea that Trump 2.0 was the End of Days or WWW III or some other horrid sequel then Strangeways would explode! I think he has that right. Whether that will achieve anything or be a good use of Musk’s time and energy is another point entirely.
@jgh – regarding US men and materiel in the UK – no, they don’t. There’s vurtually no actual troops, as in boots and bayonets. It’s virtually-all support, logistics and a bunch of SIGINT bods. There’s a few combat aircraft, the rest are strategic and logistic assets. The largest single unit of combat-trained US troops in the UK is probably the Marine detachment at the US embassy.
llater,
llamas
On the wider point of US interest in UK politics. Oh, spare me the injured outrage. Apparently, it’s perfectly-fine for the entire UK media and 99% of the UK ‘establishment’ to lecture the US ceaselessly about how they should vote and how they should run the country when they’re done voting correctly – see every single story and opinion piece about the US election process for the last 10 years. It’s even perfectly-fine for UK political.parties to recruit campaign ‘volunteers’ to travel to the US to work for political campaigns. But let a US politician even comment on, much less criticize, any aspect of UK politics, and it’s nothing but naked imperialistic interference in the sacred sovereignty of another nation. Give me a break. This is merely another expression of what I’ve sometimes described here before, the innate, unquestioned, historic sense of natural superiority that virtually everyone in the UK has when it comes to America and its people. Get over yourselves.
llater,
llamas
Stuart Noyes:
Highlighting a years-long atrocity and its coverup, or downplaying, is not political meddling, whether it comes from within or without the country.
It’s just making sure the whole matter doesn’t go down the memory hole, while at the same time providing some measure of moral support for those affected (similar to what happened re Soviet Union dissidents for example).
Also, the more the pressure builds the hope, perhaps likelihood, would be that at least some of the guilty parties, politicos included, pay the price for their crimes.
To a degree. I think he likes upsetting left-liberals for sure. But on the H1B1 furore the other week, he got criticised mostly from people to the right of him, and his response was to sperg out like a crazed teenager:
“Take a big step back and FUCK YOURSELF in the face. I will go to war on this issue the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend.”
People have said Trump has emotional control issues but I think he is much more level headed and largely more calculated than Musk. I know Trump is tee-total, whereas Musk smokes weed, takes ketamine and Mounjaro, and has been reported to also use cocaine and psychedelics so I wonder if that affects his mental state, on top of the Aspergers he has.
Several of the accounts that criticised Musk lost their verification statuses afterwards. The latter didn’t surprise me too much, as I don’t think anyone is really a free-speech absolutist. Everyone has red lines or buttons that if pushed override their stated principles. Musk owns Twitter/X, and as Carl Schmitt famously said ‘sovereign is he who decides on the state of exception’ (i.e. when the normal rules get broken). If Musk had been a hero of mine, I’d be disappointed that his state of exception was for something as trivial as Indian tech workers. He’ll let people call for his arrest or his property to be seized on his platform, but threatening his H1B1 visas is what really triggered him.
llamas,
It was I, not jgh who made the remark about US resources in the UK. I am aware the disposition is as you say, but the US could probably take over Downing Street with a dozen men and an Apache 😉
Stuart,
I don’t feel that Labour is particularly democratic, given that a large part of their support comes from those employed by the government. As I have commented before, the government is voting for itself without troubling the taxpayers.
The “grooming gang” scandal is a crime committed by government against the people. I welcome criticism of it from anywhere in the world. It is perfectly right to do so, just as we would criticize any other state that ill treated its people.
Brendan O’Neill of Spiked makes what I think is the crucial point: It is not that the MSM has ignored the story; some news organisations, such as the Times (of London) have covered a lot of this. Google up “Rotheram” and “grooming” and a fair amount comes up. The problem is that, as O’Neill says, is that there has not been a reckoning commensurate with the impact on lives. Compare and contrast how the murder of Stephen Laurence in 2012 led to widespread changes (not all of them for the better) in London’s Metropolitan Police force, and more widely across the UK. Or, to go outside policing, consider the political fallout from the Royal Mail sub-post office accounting disaster that came out last year, with controversies still rippling through the system. On the other hand, the failure of much of the media and political establishment to own up to how lockdowns were on balance a greater cost than the benefits remains an example of how people don’t want to face up to the implications of a policy.
Too many people are invested, politically, even psychologically, in wanting this dreadful series of crimes to just go away, and not to have to talk about the culture that Islam, in certain ethnic groups and where assimilation is weak or totally absent, can lead to. (Centuries ago, the same could be said of parts of the Christian world, China in day of yore – binding the feet of girls and that sort of horror – and I suspect the same can be said today of some Hindus and the caste system that lingers on, etc).
What is lacking is the impact on certain groups of an Enlightenment, pro-automony, pro-freedom culture, and in part that is because in much of the West, the Enlightenment has come under attack. Nature abhors a vacuum. Immigrants from certain cultures are disorientated; some of their brethren smell weakness and decay, and this is what happens.
On a related front, I’ve noticed how a few of these so-called “Red Pill” men, who go on about how to handle female nature and the need for traditional gender roles to be re-asserted, have converted to Islam, or are already of that faith and talk about Islam in a positive way, and how to prevent it being weakened, in part I suspect because it keeps men at the head of a family, and subordinates women fairly dramatically. (In the case of Andrew Tate, who is now in serious legal shit, it may also be a ploy to get into places such as Dubai.) And yet parts of the Right who can be quite charmed by the Red Pill fraternity tend to not dwell overly on this point. I keep an eye on this stuff, in part because I think the RP movement is a form of tribalism of the Right, a sort of “woke Right”, if you like. (Konstan Kisin of Triggernometry talks about this here.)
Llamas: Oh, spare me the injured outrage.
Absolutely. People think they are entitled to unload all the time on US politics, and yet if a US-based politician, journalist or entrepreneur gives a piece of his or her mind on the UK, there’s outrage. I think there is a sense on the US side, which I understand totally (given the number of American relations and pals I have) of bewilderment at what the UK has become. A lot of Americans still think the UK is as it was under Margaret Thatcher, or maybe even under Tony Blair. The descent of the UK these past 20-plus years has not fully registered.
A certain harshness of criticism is something the UK already gets from continental Europe; I have relatives who still bend my ear about leaving the EU, unable or unwilling to see Brexit as anything more than trying to resolve an internal Tory Party issue, rather than something stemming from years of growing frustrations about democratic deficits, centralisation and the rest of it.
Also, while I have never had any time for Jess Phillips, who is one of the worst MPs in the country, the whole furore about calls for another public inquiry seems to be just noise. Social media slop. Given the record of what the outcomes of these tend to be, and that there has already been one done regarding grooming gangs, another one will be just a waste of time and money (and these things tend to go on for ages and way over budget), likely a whitewash, and even if it reveals certain people ought to be driven from public life, this may have long happened by the time the inquiry ends.
@llamas I’m not sure I agree about the universality of the innate superiority bit (I certainly don’t feel superior, nor do many I know, and most who do are deeply misled by the BBC), but for the rest, I entirely agree.
I’m outraged that we don’t have more UK voices pointing out the appalling complicity (not in the active sense, but in the brush-it-under- the-carpet sense) of most UK politicians on this issue and that it takes outside voices to express that outrage more widely. If that constitutes political meddling, then I’m all for it.
llamas:
You said much better than I could. Good on ya.
llamas:
Not true.
True when an influential American goes against the British Establishment; not true when an influential American lectures to the British “deplorables”.
See also Obama’s comments about the UK getting to the back of the queue in trade negotiations.
Virtually everyone? I can hardly remember meeting anyone with this attitude in the UK.
In Western Europe, yes; but even there, not virtually everyone.
I thought that it was the Stephen Lawrence inquiry that enabled the “grooming gangs”.
(Which is not to say that an inquiry was not needed, of course.)
In my comment above I called Musk a “happy warrior”. He appears to be also on the wacky stuff again, to back up what Martin says about Musk’s fondness for certain substances. Musk has now gone after Nigel Farage as not being the suitable person to lead Reform, as if it is any of his direct business. (Maybe he was close to giving Reform lots of money and wants people to do his bidding. If so, the main beneficiary of this nonsense will be the Conservatives. No wonder Badenock is keeping quiet.) https://news.sky.com/story/farage-doesnt-have-what-it-takes-musk-says-reform-uk-needs-a-new-leader-13284086
Regulars know that I am not NF’s biggest fan, and while I see how Reform arose, I worry that in our political system, it will merely enable the current lot to stay in office. But Farage, with a fraction of the resources available to Musk, has had a massive impact on the climate of opinion in the UK, including current controversies. I go back to my point that Musk is playing with fire in getting so much of a political profile instead of focusing on where he has made most impact: spacefaring, electric vehicles (albeit with tax subsidies) and engineering.
I also think Trump will have a problem with Musk going into this particular route, given that Trump and Farage are friends. Trump needs to exert control over the folk he chooses to have around him. Healthy disagreement is fine; but a relentless pantomime is not.
I wonder what JD Vance makes of Musk.
Snorri: I thought that it was the Stephen Lawrence inquiry that enabled the “grooming gangs”.
Only in the most indirect sense of police/prosecutors/etc doing all they could to avoid discussing ethnicity/religion/race of those who are accused of very serious offences, but I think what was more in play was a determination not to antagonise relations with Muslims in the UK, such as in areas such as the Northwest and West Midlands, where Labour, for example, is vulnerable to far-leftists such as Corbyn and breakaway sectarian politicians, as we saw in the 2024 elections.
Other point: Sir Keir Starmer is the former head of the Crown Prosecution Service and was in the job around the time of the “grooming gang” scandal and the reactions to it. So I imagine he’s keen to try and keep this issue under control as much as possible.
Lots of anger at the UK power structure.
Relatively little anger expressed at the Pakistani community.
Strikes me as quite racist, to have such low expectations of a particular community and its culture. Almost a “they don’t know better” vibe. But there’s no way this particular expression of culture is limited to a few rapists.
After the H1B1 meltdown he had a few weeks ago, I did wonder if Musk was way too mercurial and unstable to be a reliable ally for Reform. I didn’t realise he’d prove that so rapidly.
Early days but Farage responded better to Musk’s criticism than Musk criticised to the twitter anons who called him out about H1B1 visas. It may be better for this to happen now and get distance between Reform and Musk so that Farage isn’t dogged by the media and other parties for every mood swing Musk has.
Will be interesting to see what happens when Trump officially starts again as president. He might tolerate Musk picking arguments with those Trump has little time for but might bristle at this. Nigel was supporting Trump when Musk was supporting Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Trump should remember that.
I’m given to understand Labour had the support of 1 in 5 voters.
They plan to make massive changes to our local government without asking us. I have very little faith in our system of democracy.
There is a very poor connect between the people and our state. Our state can hand over power to a foreign government, that being completely unconstitutional. Our state can wage war in our name with little pretence of it being defensive. Our state can bring in millions of people without our consent. It can choose to uphold the law with prejudice towards certain groups. The list goes on.
General elections are in my opinion the minimum and only aspect that keeps us from outright dictatorship.
We need more powers to shape our society. It shouldn’t take an American billionaire with his own social media platform. We should have people here who stand upfir what’s right.
I do get a kick out of this. “Relations.”
When a large crowd of foreign hostile men have invaded your country and begun the systematic rape of your daughters, face it, you are under occupation. You have already lost. Your pols are the Vichy.
Re Musk:
Mass American media themes and stories tend to get oversimplified. Nuance disappears. I think Musk is getting his info on TR from that source.
Here, what’s being presented is, basically, Tommy R the Christlike figure imprisoned by the nasty Brits for speaking truth. No nuance.
Every Brit to whom I speak is just a bit more hesitant to shower him with praise – likely because they know more about him. He’s a mixed bag, and not always a nice pleasant bag.
So I’d guess Musk is reacting to the jailing of Christ, not to the jailing of a flawed guy who says some good things.
@Snorri Godhi, who wrote:
‘Virtually everyone? I can hardly remember meeting anyone with this attitude in the UK.’
Well, I can only speak, as I find. And it’s been more than 2 years since I was in UK. Maybe things have changed.
But I’ve recounted here, in the past, numerous incidents of blatant, open anti-American sentiments which I (and my American wife) have heard freely expressed in the Uk, by many different classes of persons.
I’ll add one from my last trip. I was more than a little taken-aback to find myself being berated (I don’t think ‘berated’ is over-stating the case) by a well-to-do professional English lady on the subject of the then-recent Dobbs decision of the USSC, which overturned Roe v. Wade and returned abortion regukation to the states.
The location of this parlay? We were in the foyer of an ancient London church, where she and I were attending a memorial service But, apparently, any location is fine when it comes to correcting an American about the errors of their ways. How in the world was it possible, she said, that toothless fundamentalists and Bible-thumpers could possibly pass such a law? (No law was passed of course, but why let little details stand in her way?) It made her blood boil, she said, to think that a nation could be so backward. And then there was a chance that Trump might run again! He should he in jail! (She didn’t say for what.) And all of the well-dressed, well-connected upper-middle-class folks standing around were nodding and murmuring in assent.
I knew, from long experience, that it would boot me nothing to point out that a) abortion laws in various states were passed by a democratic process, did she not believe in democracy? b) prior to Dobbs, abortions in the US were legal in circumstances which would have made them illegal in many, if not all, European nations, and c) even toothless fundamentalists and Bible-thumpers get to vote, or did she think they should not? And more besides. A stone waste of synapses and breath, because she just knew, what she knew, everyone she knows thinks much-the-same as she does, and nothing so trivial as facts would change her thinking in any way.
As I’ve commented here before, anti-American sentiments in the UK are the last acceptable racism. Perhaps you have been less-exposed to it because of your situation, but I assure you that for a US visitor to the UK, it’s easy to find – in fact, it’s hard to avoid.
llater,
llamas
@Snorri Godhi, who wrote:
‘Virtually everyone? I can hardly remember meeting anyone with this attitude in the UK.’
Well, I can only speak, as I find. And it’s been more than 2 years since I was in UK. Maybe things have changed.
But I’ve recounted here, in the past, numerous incidents of blatant, open anti-American sentiments which I (and my American wife) have heard freely expressed in the UK, by many different classes of persons.
I’ll add one from my last trip. I was more than a little taken-aback to find myself being berated (I don’t think ‘berated’ is over-stating the case) by a well-to-do professional English lady on the subject of the then-recent Dobbs decision of the USSC, which overturned Roe v. Wade and returned abortion regulation to the states.
The location of this parlay? We were in the foyer of an ancient London church, where she and I were attending a memorial service But, apparently, any location is fine when it comes to correcting an American about the errors of their ways. How in the world was it possible, she said, that toothless fundamentalists and Bible-thumpers could possibly pass such a law? (No law was passed of course, but why let little details stand in her way?) It made her blood boil, she said, to think that a nation could be so backward. And then there was a chance that Trump might run again! He should he in jail! (She didn’t say for what.) And all of the well-dressed, well-connected upper-middle-class folks standing around were nodding and murmuring in assent.
I knew, from long experience, that it would boot me nothing to point out that a) abortion laws in various states were passed by a democratic process, did she not believe in democracy? b) prior to Dobbs, abortions in the US were legal in circumstances which would have made them illegal in many, if not all, European nations, and c) even toothless fundamentalists and Bible-thumpers get to vote, or did she think they should not? And more besides. A stone waste of synapses and breath, because she just knew, what she knew, everyone she knows thinks much-the-same as she does, and nothing so trivial as facts would change her thinking in any way.
As I’ve commented here before, anti-American sentiments in the UK are the last acceptable racism. Perhaps you have been less-exposed to it because of your situation, but I assure you that for a US visitor to the UK, it’s easy to find – in fact, it’s hard to avoid.
llater,
llamas
I have used the excuse of my personal computer being in the repair shop (which it still is) to avoid commenting on this matter for some days.
However, I am sick of my own cowardice (although my excuse was genuine, it was an excuse – I could have find ways to comment, as I am doing right now).
The behaviour of the British establishment in regards to the rape and torture of so many thousands of young girls has been utterly despicable.
The only concern of the establishment has been “racism” or “Islamophobia” – nothing, other than their “Critical Theory” doctrines (now called DEI or EDI), seems to matter to them.
If I get punished for writing the above – so be it.
llamas: I have had those exact conversations, but with my sisters, my parents, most acquaintances back in woke Minnesota.
I’d chalk up your experiences as having less to do with anti-Americanism, and more to do with the woke-mind virus being a global disease.
bobby b: “Relatively little anger expressed at the Pakistani community
Oh, there has been some of that. But when the authorities, local and national, are plainly covering for mass rapists then they tend to appear even worse.
do get a kick out of this. “Relations.” Quite so. “Relations” are something you have with a foreign power, not an integral part of your own society.
I assume it’s news to Musk that TR has convictions for assault (a police officer I think), mortgage fraud, and entering the US illegally. While none of these mean he necessarily deserves the sentence he is currently serving, it does make it hard for a political party to embrace him closely, unless they want to get any law and order agenda (and clamping down on illegal immigration) to be discredited. I mean, would Musk employ someone at Tesla or X with such a record?
If Musk wants to be really brave he should look and comment on the mass murder epidemic going on under the ANC in his native South Africa. From what I can tell, Musk has criticised the Extreme Black Nationalist Left in South Africa (EFF), however, never really criticises the ANC who have controlled SA for 30 years, and did the actual damage. My fiancee is from South Africa, and she is completely contemptuous of Mandela and the ANC. But she’s a mere working class girl with no business interests to worry about. Most of her friends back there are the same, but they are all working class. I asked her about wealthy white South Africans and she said most either genuinely believe in the rainbow nation crap as they’ve been able to insulate themselves from the breakdown of law and order and the affirmative action policies, or they just pretend to do so to avoid pissing off the ANC and co.
The English professional bourgeoisie largely mimic their counterparts in New York and Los Angeles. They are anti-American in the sense New York and LA liberals dislike the red areas of their own country. Very Americanised anti-Americanism.
I mean you might get an arguably Anti-American rant from an Englishman like myself, but I wouldn’t be complaining about Trump or Bible Belt or anything like that. I’d be complaining that American multinational businesses, NGOs, Media, and higher ed behave like a woke comintern.
llamas and bobby b, the behaviour of the “Woke” is indeed troubling.
And to fanatically support abortion, whilst at a Church Service, is deeply ironic – showing that the person knows even less about Christianity than they do about American Constitutional law (“this is a State, not a Federal, matter” is, of course, NOT the same thing as a “ban on abortion”) – indeed opposition to infanticide was one of the two major things that divided Christians from their Pagan neighbours (the other was opposition to homosexual acts – like the opposition to infanticide, including abortion, this opposition came from Orthodox Judaism).
Barbarus – to examine the rape of thousands of British girls without examining the possible link with Islamic teachings and culture is indeed “Hamlet without the Prince”.
But it is not Muslims who have put so many British people in prison for dissent – it is the mostly non Muslim British establishment.
The British establishment shows a mixture of two things – both bad. Viciousness and cowardice.
Yeah, I would guess that that’s unknown to about 80% of Americans who now know Robinson’s name. Our “news” is most like the old Reader’s Digest Condensed version – a quick blurb that allows you to quickly pick sides.
Xitter is helping, but it’s still just two opposing crowds throwing out their talking points.
llamas: it is true that things have changed for the worse since i left England.(NB: correlation does not imply causation.)
Your previous comment, however, seemed to imply a sense of cultural superiority, as distinct from the sense of moral superiority that you seem to have encountered.
WRT that English lady: I would have told her that she does not know what she is talking about; which is the plain truth wrt Dobbs.
Martin – if “Americanism” means anything it means support for the Bill of Rights and for the Common Law traditions from which this springs.
And you are quite correct Sir – New York and LA are as anti American as London is, which is why people who believe in such things a fair trial, equality before the law, should leave such places.
Quite some years ago I noticed a tendency among British juries, when leftists were on these juries, to try cases politically – rather than in line with the facts and the law. For example, when ex members of CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament), specifically “the 100” (a group created under the influence of the Collectivist philosopher Bertrand Russell) admitted, in a book, to helping with the escape of George Blake, a Soviet agent, from prison – they were put on trial, only to be found “Not Guilty” by a jury that shared their (profoundly evil) political stance.
In the United States juries have found people they know to be innocent guilty of murder (for example Derek Chauvin – the jury knew perfectly well that Mr Floyd died of the drugs he willing consumed, but they did-not-care and knowingly send an innocent man to prison to be cut up with knives) – in order to make a political point.
Such famous people as Donald Trump have been found guilty of both civil torts and criminal charges, by juries who knew they were innocent – indeed laughed about it.
And less famous people have also been liable for civil torts when the jury knew very well that they, the jury, were acting unjustly, for example the jury in the case of Mark Steyn revelled in their own wickedness. An honest man was before them (that was obvious) and he was also a man who was clearly suffering – from 12 years of persecution which had led to the two heart attacks that had almost killed him, and yet it was obvious that the jury enjoyed inflicting injustice, that they enjoyed the additional suffering they were inflicting on the just in order to serve the unjust.
In Washington D.C. MOST, yes most, people appear to be like this – and it is not alone among American cities.
The left have not “just” corrupted the elite (such as so many judges) they have also corrupted many ordinary people as well.
We now, sometimes, have leftist juries who will lie – who will say the guilty are innocent and the innocent are guilty, indeed they get a “kick” out of doing so.
No conservative, or person who is perceived to be a conservative, can rely on getting a fair trial in a civil or criminal case if the jury is made up of leftists.
It really is that bad.
As Harold Prichard pointed out in his 1912 article in “Mind” (“Does Moral Philosophy Rest On A Mistake?”) for people who revel in their own wickedness – morality is very much NOT a “knowledge problem” (as the Classical Philosophers had assumed) – such people know very well they are being evil, and act in this way because they gain pleasure from being evil.
Sadly such people are far more common than is often supposed – indeed we all have this darkness within us. What Collectivist philosophy does is give a justification for the sadistic pleasure that human beings gain from inflicting suffering on other human beings (especially, yes especially, if the people who are having suffering inflicted upon them are just people – people innocent of the offenses they are accused of).
“He is just a reactionary”, “she is just a Jew” or whatever the justification might be – depending on the sort of Collectivist philosophy that is being used.
Bobby:
It is wise to hit the head of the snake.
But, as i wrote years ago on this forum: if the British Establishment were to turn a blind eye to Swedish crime, pretty soon there would be Swedish “”grooming gangs”” in Britain.
But then, by Auster’s Law of Majority/Minority Relations, it is the ethnic group most likely to “”groom”” that the Establishment is going to turn a blind eye to.
Comntrary to Auster’s Law, however, the Dutch Establishment did not turn a blind eye to Moroccan “”groomers””; which might be why there are, to the best of my knowledge, no “”grooming gangs”” in the Netherlands, only freelance “”groomers””.
Yes, and based on a quick search of his X account, I can’t see Musk had commented on Tommy Robinson until the last few weeks, so might have only become aware of him. And maybe even the stuff about the grooming gangs in England.
Meanwhile, over here TR has been in and out of the news for 15 years and the grooming scandals in and out of the news for the past 20-25.
You could put it like that. I was thinking more along the lines they don’t like Americans (especially if white) who live in places like Kansas, Mississippi, South Dakota, rural Pennsylvania etc and drive trucks, farm or work in a steel mill etc for a living, are actual (rather than nominal) Catholics or Evangelical etc. The people Pat Buchanan said this about:
My friends, these people are our people. They don’t read Adam Smith or Edmund Burke, but they come from the same schoolyards and the same playgrounds and towns as we come from. They share our beliefs and convictions, our hopes and our dreams. They are the conservatives of the heart.
As I have admitted above, as a Brit I have my own criticisms of the United States, but I’ve never believed the issue with the US was these heartland Americans that are fashionable to hate because they are mostly white, largely not rich,and often religious. My politics in Britain is largely that I am in favour of the British equivalent of the people that Buchanan spoke of with regards to America.
No Snorri – I think you miss the point.
You give the example of Swedish people.
The teachings of the Swedish Lutheran Church and Islam are quite different. Sweden is indeed “post Christian” – but the after glow of Christian ethics remains even though the faith itself has greatly declined (how long that after glow of Christian ethics will last I do not know).
It is true that is NOT about race – after all when the Swedes (and other Scandinavian) practiced the Pagan faith they also held that the rape of the people they raided (to “Viking” is to embark on a raid – to go a-viking) was justified.
As for the Netherlands – as you know, people in the Netherlands have indeed been killed for opposing Islam, this is upheld in Islamic law which holds that such people (people who oppose Islam with their words – for example mock Muhammed) should be killed.
Mass sexual abuse may will come – it is a matter of time and relative numbers in communities.
To cite the French saying “demography is destiny”.
Is there a serious effort to change the demographic future of the Netherlands?
Genuine question – as I do not know.
Perhaps there is a great effort to convert people going on – again I do not know.
But I do know that one can not defeat something with nothing.
The modern West has become a spiritual and philosophical wasteland – basic Western beliefs (both religious and secular ethical systems) have horribly declined – and none of this is the fault of Islam, Islam is entirely innocent in all this.
What has happened is that Western civilisation has undergone a terrible philosophical decline (a decline of belief – and fancy weapons can not take the place of basic beliefs) – and Islam (which did NOT cause the decline) has expanded into the philosophically decaying West.
To reverse that expansion, Westerners must find their basic principles again – without their basic beliefs, fancy weapons and consumer goods will NOT save them.
Your comment, to me, implies that we would all be rapists if government wasn’t watching us.
But if I cannot work out the morality of rape in my own mind, and let it direct my actions, then I’d argue I have no place in society – except in a society where rape is moral.
And I do always hesitate to imply group guilt for individual acts. But how many of us see non-Hamas Gazans as guiltless victims who deserve our protection? (Not me, btw. I see them as enablers, accepters, supporters.)
If our immigrant communities cannot assimilate as a group – if they cannot exert enough peer pressure within their own communities to stop things like this from happening – we ought not be primarily blaming our enforcement mechanisms.
They certainly deserve abuse for how they have handled this – but the main evil lies in that community. We’re treating police like the owners of vicious dogs – because we don’t expect moral thought from dogs. But these aren’t dogs.
JP
It was the Post Office, not the Royal Mail, they were split around privatisation, the Post Office is the public-facing counter service, the Royal Mail handles the post (mail to our trans-Atlantic friends).
I myself once spent an hour looking for a late-night post box online by searching The Post Office before remembering that the Royal Mail operate the post boxes that aren’t in post offices, so this distinction sticks.
bobby b – it is indeed about beliefs.
Police forces were not compulsory in English and Welsh counties till the 1850s, and public prosecutions for private offenses (such as rape) did not come till the 1870s (and public prosecutions were rare to start with).
The idea that people would rape, or rob, each other without the state standing over them is from Thomas Hobbes – but reality shows the contrary. If people sincerely believe that rape and robbery are wrong they will tend not do such things – regardless of whether the state watches them or not, and if they have have abandoned such beliefs (if they revel in such cruelty) they will do such things – especially if certain doctrines give them excuses to do so (for Marxists “it is a reactionary”, for other belief systems “it is an infidel” or whatever).
Martin – culture will not last without basic beliefs, without ordinary people having a basic understanding of basic principles.
This is where Hume and Hayek were utterly wrong – liberty does not evolve as a result of human action, but not human design. If people do not believe in liberty, if they are not prepared to sacrifice for it, liberty will not be achieved – and if people (ordinary people) lose their basic understanding of principles, then liberty will die.
As Ronald Reagan used to, correctly, say – liberty (and our civilisation in general) is never more than one generation away from being lost.
If a generation comes to be in an area that no longer understands or believes in the basic principles – then liberty is gone from that area, the West, in that area, has fallen.
Look at the example of juries I have given in another comment.
Their mixture of ignorance and wickedness – yes wickedness, the desire to inflict suffering on the innocent.
@ Snorri Godhi – regarding ‘cultural’ vs ‘moral’ superiority – embrace the power of ‘and’. I’ve ‘ad ’em both. And if the lady’s comment about ‘toothless fundamentalists’ and ‘Bible thumpers’ doesn’t amount to both at once, I don’t know what does.
Regarding Tommy Robinson (whose ‘real’ name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – I’m just following the house style of every UK media outlet, who always add this coy detail, I wonder why?), thete’s no question that he has a very-chequered past. Funny, isn’t it, how when there’s an issue where the wisdom of the great-and-the-good is sharply at-odds with the majority of public opinion, the media seem to be able to find some – how shall I say? – questionable character to anoint as the poster child and cheer-leader for the disfavoured opinion? From our own late discussions here, Tony Martin, anyone?
@ bobby b. – well, of course you’ve been berated with these woke opinions here in the US. But would you take time out of your day to tell a foreign visitor that the way they do things in his home country is wrong and immoral, and that they oight to do things the way they do them here? I suggest that you would not.
Regarding the manner in which I should have responded to my interlocutor – while I have absolutely no religious belief, and while I don’t think there’s much doubt that I will debate anyone, anywhere, anytime, on any topic (just like Joe Biden 🌝🌝🌝), I hope I don’t give the impression of having no scruples whatsoever. Call me a weakling or a wimp, but I won’t be drawn into an argument in a church before a memorial service.
llater,
llamas
Thank you, Mr Ed, for bringing the Post Office scandal as another example of mis-direction by the great-and-the-good. Other examples, anyone?
llater,
llamas
llamas:
But talk of ‘toothless fundamentalists’ and ‘Bible thumpers’ clearly shows that the lady had her head full of American BS.
REAL European snobs would never talk like that. It would be more subtle, condescending rather than hostile. And it would not be centered on politics.
But telling the lady that she has her head full of American BS is not an argument, it is just a statement of fact.
I might also have alerted the lady to the brain damage induced by the ‘progressive’ British diet. (The ‘progressive’ American diet is no better; but then, i am not a victim to it, so i have the advantage of her.)
— More replies tomorrow. Maybe.
OK, one more reply, which might need to be expanded tomorrow:
Wrong. In Viking Iceland there was no government (executive) and hardly any rape; because of mob justice.
Vikings did the raping in countries that had governments 🙂
The fact is, Auster’s Law of Majority/Minority Relations holds only in countries with governments.
Me? No. I’m like you.
But my sisters and their woke friends surely would, at the drop of a hat. Remember “witnessing”? They’re always witnessing, to whomever they think needs it.
Mr Ed, my mistake!
@ Snorri Godhi, who wrote:
‘But talk of ‘toothless fundamentalists’ and ‘Bible thumpers’ clearly shows that the lady had her head full of American BS.’
It’s BS that’s often heard in America, to be sure. But that’s not where she got it from. AFAIK, she’s never been to the US, or consumed significant US media. The fact is that these sorts of characterizations are common currency in UK and European media, and have been for decades. It would be interesting to do an experiment to see just how outrageously-false a story about the US you could get printed in the UK press before you were caught.
You also wrote:
‘But telling the lady that she has her head full of American BS is not an argument, it is just a statement of fact.’
And had I done so, she would of course have immediately seen the truth of my every word, and begged my forgiveness for her false and misguided opinions. Totally.
You are right, of course, when you observe that ‘real’ European snobs would not be nearly so crude and direct in their crticisms. I don’t mix much in those circles, but I can catch the subtle tone of 50% disdain / 50% superiority with which they pronounce the word ‘American’ in at least 3 different languages. With the word ‘Trump’, it’s more like 100% disdain AND 100% superiority, which is quite a feat if you think about it.
llater,
llamas
Where do you think the UK and European media get this stuff from? They’re mostly getting it from American journalists and elites. Several of the bigger UK newspapers have American editions now (off the top of my head Telegraph, Guardian and Spectator all do), so I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the news about the US written in UK papers is increasingly written by Americans. And given American journalists are about 98% democrats, go figure what the slant will be…..
What Martin said.
IIRC I realized that European opinions about the US are dictated by American media when i got a subscription to TIME magazine in the 1980s.
Then i switched to The Economist; until The Economist went woke.
BTW I told one of my oldest friends (Italian) that he has his head full of American BS; so i would not hesitate to tell the same to an English twit, even at a memorial service. I could not care less whether she is convinced: I just feel an obligation to speak truth to insanity.
Martin – I’m sure you are right, and furthermore, I suspect that many of these sorts of stories get an additional ‘juicing’ for the European market because a) they can get away with things in that market that they could not get away with with US viewers and readers and b) (more importantly) they know that such tales sell especially well in European markets precisely because of the pre-existing biases.
It’s been that way a long time. I shall now illustrate by 2 examples separated by 40 years.
In the 1970s, there was a wildly-popular movie called ‘Saturday Night Fever’. At the time, I heard that it was based on a long story by an English writer, whose name now escapes me. I read that story at the time. It was a fantastically-detailed, not-very-flattering description of an entire sub-culture of Italian-American youth in Brooklyn and their intense focus on weekend dance-hall rituals. The movie is based on the story, and it all rang 100%-true.
Come to find out, 30 years later, it was 98%-fabricated, written in Shepherd’s Bush following a 2-day visit to New York. For 30 years, passed as gospel truth in the UK. Too good to check . . .
A couple of years ago, I read an extended feature in the Guardian, written by their US correspondent, about the water contamination crisis in Flint, Michigan. This story, about drinking water issues in predominantly working-class, majority-minority Flint, carried a lot of social and political baggage, which the writer blamed squarely on corporate greed, racism and a dozen other equally-evil forces. I’m sure patriarchy and white-supremacy figured in there somewhere as well.
Well, I live not a million miles from Flint, and I’d followed the issue a little bit, and it soon became clear to me that the writer knew absolutely nothing of the history of the issue, had no idea of the causes of the problems, and had never set foot anywhere near Flint. Some of her errors were simply laughable in their complete wrong-ness, which something as trivial as Google Maps could have corrected.
But who cares? The story was written for a UK readership,who simply lapped up this tale of corporate greed and racism. After all, everyone knows that it’s like that in America, don’t they? No need to check it . . .
llater,
llamas
If you rely on the mainstream media for reports of his “criminal” convictions, then yes, he has been painted as Satan incarnate. However, the State and the system will protect itself and even The Black Belt barrister’s Youtube channel is critical of, and questioning, the official account. This from someone who, if you look back through his catalogue of videos and explanations of the law is quite comfortable with “The Law is The Law and must be obeyed, regardless of how stupid, useless and illogical it is”.
Is he a criminal? Yes, because he has been convicted. Was his conviction justified and fair? Now, that is an entirely different argument.
Robinson’s own story gives a more detailed explanation of the “mortgage fraud” etc. Download and read if from here:
https://oceanofpdf.com/authors/tommy-robinson/pdf-epub-enemy-of-the-state-by-tommy-robinson-download/
An odd sort of fraud when the mortgage holder is being paid back on time and in full every month but there y’go.
Do I accept Robinson’s account uncritically? No – he has his own agenda but I trust it infinitely more than the mainstream media who reduce complex and nuanced stories to a 30 second sound bite ordered and directed by those in power and with the biggest megaphone to drown out any and all opposing views.
The entire “he’s a criminal!” theme took a large hit with “34 felonies!” Too easy to manufacture those convictions if you have corrupt judges and prosecutors – and we do.
P.S. Trump’s 34 felonies were all based on “mortgage fraud.”
Just sayin’ .. . .
Trump’s mortgage fraud was that he over-valued his properties. He’s been convicted of it, so it it iron-cast irrefutable legal fact. So, clearly, he’ll be getting a refund of the property taxes he paid on those properties that were incorrectly valued too high. Won’t he….? Hello….. anybody there…..?
Liberty, a free society, does not “evolve” it is not “the result of human action, but not human design” – liberty is a choice (political liberty depends on the philosophical liberty, Free Will – humans being human BEINGS, moral agents, that both David Hume and F.A. Hayek denied), if people do not understand the basic principles of liberty and are not prepared to sacrifice to achieve it, then they will not achieve it, and if most people cease to understand the basic principles of liberty, or will no longer choose to sacrifice in order to maintain liberty – then liberty will be lost.
One can not get to the politics of the Bill of Rights (American or British) via the philosophy of Thomas Hobbes, David Hume and Jeremy Bentham, or the philosophy of F.A. Hayek – which also reduces human beings to NON beings. One does not achieve or preserve liberty by destroying its foundations.
As for the mass rape and abuse in the United Kingdom – any examination of this matter which ignores Islamic teachings, is worthless, utterly worthless.
That government anti-terrorism slogan seems appropriate.
“If you see something,
say nothing,
bigot.”
I am in complete agreement with llamas on this.
I’d like to add a couple of qualifications, however.
First, and of minor importance, is that the examples that he gives come from the UK, which is not really a part of Europe, culturally. But i could give similar examples from continental Europe, too.
More important is that it is (very slightly) less insane for Europeans to be anti-American, than it is for Americans to be anti-American.
But, to be clear, my remarks do not undermine what llamas wrote in any way.
Item: Many years ago, I read of a Briton’s reaction to an exposé of underclass conditions in some city in northern England. He said it reminded him of what he’d seen about the “the slums of Brownsville[, Texas].”
Item: Trump was not convicted of mortgage fraud. The state of New York brought a civil action against him (under a law peculiar to the state), for allegedly obtaining loans on favorable terms by overvaluing property offered as collateral. The loans were repaid in full, and the banks testified that they had done their own due diligence on the values and would happily do business with Trump again. The jury found him liable anyway and awarded the state a huge civil judgement. However the state Court of Appeals is looking very skeptically at the whole thing and may throw it out.
Item: Trump’s “convictions” were for “falsifying business records”. He directed his attorney to pay off Stormy Daniels in 2016, with reimbursement as “legal fees”. This would be a misdemeanor with a two-year statute of limitations, unless part of a felony. Prosecutor Bragg argued that the payment was part of Trump’s campaign, and that not reporting it as such was a felony violation of federal election law. The Federal Election Commission hadn’t made any such finding. However, Bragg told the jury that if they thought Trump had committed such a felony, they could find him guilty of falsification – even if they didn’t agree what that felony was.
Bonus item: Trump was not “convicted of rape”. He was accused of “sexual assault” by E. Jean Carroll, which he vehemently denied. He was found liable for “defamation” for calling her a liar.
The rape and torture of those girls is nothing less than a crime against humanity. It should be treated as such.
Dang, you’re correct. I confused the two cases.
Good to see that bobby accepts Rich Rostrom’s correction, as i was sure he would.
I did not get the point of the first item in Rich’s comment, however:
I’d like to expand & clarify on what i wrote yesterday about Auster’s Law.
I start from the following assumptions:
A. People Respond to Incentives: if members of group X are less likely to be punished than members of group Y, then X-members will commit more crimes than Y-members.
This is the basis of my claim about Swedish gangs potentially taking over the underage prostitution racket in the UK.
Even if Swedes are initially less likely to engage in pimping than British natives, eventually they’ll respond to incentives if they are given favorable treatment by the British police & justice system. That includes the incentive for Swedish criminals to move to the UK.
B. The Central Dogma of Wokeness is that any empirical differences in crime rates between groups is not due to differences in propensity to crimes between groups.
(This is the basis for Auster’s Law.)
That means that the Swedes will not actually be given favorable treatment by the British justice system, because they are no more likely to engage in pimping than British natives. But some other group will be.
— This is best understood as a vicious circle (positive-feedback loop).
0. Group X is more likely to engage in pimping: for cultural reasons.
1. That makes its members less likely to be prosecuted for pimping: by Auster’s Law.
2. That, in turn, makes group X even more likely to engage in pimping: because People Respond to Incentives.
And so on, cycling between 1. and 2.
You are welcome to your own hypothesis as to who constitutes group X, as long as you realize that that does not affect the logic.
— As i understand from Gail Heriot’s posts on Istapundit, a similar vicious circle is going on in many American schools:
Black pupils are more likely to disrupt classes.
That makes Black pupils less likely (other things being equal) to be disciplined; because of Auster’s Law.
That, in turn, makes Black pupils even more likely to disrupt classes.
Beliefs, principles, matter – people can, with effort, change their principles – confronted with arguments and evidence people sometimes (sometimes) change their beliefs – if they make a real effort to open their minds.
The all party committee in the House of Commons on “Islamophobia” basically describes any serious examination of Islam, the teachings and deeds (life) of Muhammed, Islamic history, the activity of modern Islamic groups, really anything, as “Islamophobia” and holds that it should be PUNISHED – in line with the Diversity and Inclusion agenda of the British (really international Western) leftist establishment.
If beliefs, principles, are not allowed to be questioned, if people are not allowed to expose and argue against beliefs, principles, then it is much less likely that the holders of these beliefs-principles, will change their beliefs – change their principles.
As for punishment – many people are prepared to die for Islam, punishment (fancy weapons and so on) will not win this Cultural conflict – only people finding out that their beliefs are false, if they are false, wins this cultural conflict.
One can not win a conflict by pretending Islam is something that it is not – Afghanistan and Iraq show this. The interpretation of Islam offered by President Bush, Prime Minister Blair and other Westerners differed dramatically with the Islam of Muhammed and Islamic scholars – so it is only natural for Muslims to choose the latter, not the former.
And one can not beat something, in this case Islam, with nothing – the spiritual and philosophical void that the modern West has become.
People are only likely to change their beliefs, their principles, if offered better beliefs, better principles – not if they are offered nothing but threats of punishment.
Again punishments and fancy weapons are NOT going to win this cultural conflict.
Neither are goods and services – consumerism and popular entertainment (such as Association Football or Pop Music) are not going to win this cultural conflict.
Does the West still have have spiritual and philosophical beliefs?
If so, what are they? And how are Westerners arguing for them?
And what are the arguments that Westerners have against Islam – and how are they deploying these arguments? Do Westerners even know the arguments against Islam? And do Westerners have the ability, and the moral courage, to deploy these arguments?
Nonsense (drivel) such as “well that is just the way we do things round here” will not do.
“this is the way we do things around here” or “this is how we have always done things” collapses when it is put to the test of a counter belief system.
If people do not understand the basic principles of their civilisation, the arguments and evidence for these basic beliefs, then that civilisation will fall.
Snorri Godhi: So, if people are utterly committed to defending the proposition that all cultures, all people, are equal and equally valuable, they will end up proving the opposite eventually? The reinforcing-feedback loop will cycle out of control until their error is revealed?
(My assumption being, of course, that all cultures are NOT equal and equally valuable.)
(Just to see if I’m understanding Auster.)
bobby b
If people in a civilisation hold that the principles of other, hostile, civilisations are equally valid – then their own civilisation will, eventually, fall.
But it is actually much more extreme than that – the establishment in most Western countries teach that the principles of Western civilisation are evil, that other cultures are superior. That we are the “oppressors” and they are the “oppressed”.
Call it Frankfurt School Marxism, or “Critical Theory”, or “Woke”, or “Political Correctness”, or whatever you want to call it – but the fact remains that the establishment of most Western countries is a Death Cult.
A Death Cult that will not only destroy themselves, the establishment elite, but will also destroy the civilisation (the public) generally.
Only if this establishment can be defeated, can be destroyed, does Western civilisation stand a chance of survival.
Bobby:
Yes, that is my claim.
It seems to be in agreement with empirical evidence, and not just wrt Muslims, see my remark about Black American pupils. (And perhaps one could make similar remarks about BLM, coming to think of it.)
But remember, the Central Dogma of Wokeness, and Auster’s Law, are only one branch of the positive-feedback loop.
The other branch is that People Respond to Incentives.
But I always look at these people as not wanting to simply destroy for the sake of destruction – they want to destroy because that clears the way for the system they desire. (Sure, there are the rabid total anarchists, but they are few, and stupid.)
So these people are looking, not for destruction as an end, but for the accomplishment of several stages of their journey to Utopia For All, and one of those stages needs to be a vacuum in which to remake Man.
And that would put them back into Auster’s territory, I think.
Snorri Godhi:
Aside from the discussion, Thanks for Auster. One simple search gets me a new set of websites to read in for a while. I’m probably getting too absorbed in “Bidinotto’s Law of Responsibility”, though. But it’s fun to find new places.