“We are seen, bluntly, as a country run by student union activists, a place where violent criminals are released from prison to free up space for people who have posted nasty comments online. If you’re British, you might protest that things are more complicated than that, but you must also concede that our critics have the big picture right.”
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Samizdata quote of the day: how Britain is seen abroad editionNovember 24th, 2024 |
 27 comments to Samizdata quote of the day: how Britain is seen abroad editionLeave a Reply |
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As an American born in the 60s I see both Britain and America through the prism of the Reagan-Thatcher era of return to fundamentals.
American conservatives and small-L liberals were naive, dropped the ball, and were not prepared for the depth of deceit and the vehemence of opposition to Western ideals on the political Left… to be honest the sharp coup and pull to extremism were not yet complete on the Left, either…
Trump is the second shoe falling.. the silent majority is now fully awake and focused.
It seems that something similar happened in Britain after Thatcher left the stage…. There was a bump with the Brexit vote – but that galvanized the Left while lulling the Conservatives into thinking that had settled things… now Farage and others are fighting for legitimacy.
After being raised on a history that pegs the start of modern democracy with the Magna Carta and the British roots of our country’s protection of individual rights and expansion of suffrage – I must say I never thought I would see British citizens arrested for thought crimes.
BenDavid, I want to believe “the silent majority is now fully awake and focused” and I’m very glad Trump was allowed to win (snark alert!) but somehow I still think we have just slowed the inevitable decline to drudgery, slavery, a new Dark Age.
Which of the following do you think Trump will be able to get done:
Make significant spending cuts through DOGE, say $500B at a minimum.
Not lose either house of Congress in the midterms
Put at least one more reliable conservative on the SCOTUS
Avoid more lawfare–btw a friend of mine had a great suggestion: Trump should pardon Biden’s son. A goodwill gesture to end the lawfare.
Eliminate even one Cabinet agency.
I think he could do great things even if he falls short of the above list–put the fear of God into agency leaders with Musk shaming them on X, gut several agencies even if he can’t eliminate them.
What do you think?
I couldn’t read anything except the excerpt since it is behind a paywall. But TBH I think the truth is that foreign countries do not think anything about Britain. It never crosses their mind. Perhaps drinking tea with an outstretched pinkie and Paddington Bear having lunch with the Queen is about all they think of. I doubt you ask the average American or Brazilian or Italian or Thai and they’d have no idea how bad the clamp down on free speech has been in Britain.
Which of the following do you think Trump will be able to get done:
I think that he will be able to get some low hanging fruit, but not cut much below the epidermis. But I never thought he’d get elected, so I guess my judgement is off. I think that for sure he will lock down the border very quickly, and deport a lot of people (Tom Homan is perhaps the only person in the world who can get it done. He does not give a flying f–k what they think of him. I hope to god they are giving him presidential level security.) I think he will stop both the war in Ukraine and the one in Israel. That is assuming Biden’s utterly reckless behavior (or rather the utterly reckless behavior of the deep state) doesn’t escalate the war off the charts — god help us if our only salvation is relying on the restraint of Putin.
As to DOGE, I worry that it’ll end up as a symbolic thing. For sure all the “Which medicines make monkeys masturbate” projects will get axed. But they are tiny. I think DOGE is more important for its reduction in regulation than anything else. If they do, as has been suggested, cut all remote work and start moving agencies out of DC, I think they will be able to substantially cut the workforce. Will they close down any agencies at all? Probably not. Maybe some tiny ones. But bigger ones will take congressional action and they just don’t have the juice there. If he can move agencies out of Washington that would really make a difference. But I think his chances of doing that in two years are not high.
But I guess you should never underestimate Trump, Musk and Ramaswamy all together (and I might add Pam Bondi who is a really excellent pick.)
As to the economy I think it’ll improve a lot. I’m buying American stocks again. I think both opening up hydrocarbon leases, backing out of ridiculous green commitments, reducing the fed interest rate, dramatic reductions in regulation and changes to tax laws will make a big difference. It’ll be interesting to see what trade deals Trump does. I do worry about overuse of tariffs. However, I think the economy will look good.
Main thing though is he has two years. And that’s not a lot of time.
So border locked down, millions deported, wars stopped, economy improved, federal agencies getting a bit of a haircut. Those I think are achievable, assuming the deep state doesn’t head him off at the pass by starting World War III, which seems to be their goal. But I don’t think he has enough time to get down to the bones to make a permanent change. But like I say, my judgement has been proved wrong.
Fraser should know more about the average American than i do. But i know a bit about the average Italian, and i believe that Fraser is correct.
I’d add RFK Jr.
If he gets to improve American diets, then wokeness is finished.
Because only brain damage from a xxi century Americanized diet can sustain wokeness.
And don’t forget JD Vance: nobody can deal with hostile interviews better than he can.
That will only get Biden family not anyone more and i don’t even sure it is fair.
Followed a day later by the Lord Hannan promoting a childish petition to call for a General Election, the epitome of the futile ‘student union’ politics he decries in the article.
I think it is worse than Student Union activists – for example the Prime Minister recently tweeted out that he was in “partnership” with BlackRock. No one had hacked his account – the Prime Minister really admitted this, indeed he seemed to be proud of it.
Student Union activists have many terrible faults – but they would not have done this.
The brutal truth must be faced – the United Kingdom, already greatly weakened by many decades of bad policy (for example attacks on Freedom of Speech in the United Kingdom go right back to 1965 – which was also the last year when individuals, rather than institutions, owned most shares) is under the control of a government in the grip of insane ideology – not really Marxism, more Henri Saint-Simon (a Collectivist thinker before Karl Marx) – an ideology of ending individual and family ownership and placing the everything of importance (including land itself) under the control of corporate entities in partnership of government – using such means as crushing taxation and, also, fiat money (the “Cantillon Effect” concentrating ownership or control in the hands of those who get the Credit Money first – before its value drops).
As for the virtual ignoring of such things as theft (whether from shops – or even the robbing of people’s homes – burglary) – to concentrate instead on the crushing of dissenting opinions. As Mark Steyn puts it – we have become a country where everything is policed – except crime.
I do not rob people or attack them – yet it may perhaps be that I (because I express dissenting opinions) am more likely to be punished than someone who does rob people or attack them – and the government (elected and unelected – including the judges) thinks that is perfectly fine – indeed praiseworthy.
The term “anarcho-tyranny” has been used by many people – this weird mixture of crushing dissent whilst ignoring crime.
But then the establishment define “crime” differently to the way most people do – to most people (including myself) “crime” means violating the non aggression principle of the Common Law, robbing or attacking people or destroying their stuff.
But to the establishment “crime” means disobeying an edict of the state – for, to them, “law” is simply the edicts of those in power.
In short they define “law”, “crime”, “jusice” and so on – in the way that Thomas Hobbes or Jeremy Bentham did, they do NOT see law and crime in the context of the principle of justice as to-each-their-own, they do not see law as limiting the state – they do not see rights as limiting the state, they see rights as gifts from the state, and the only law as the whims of state officials (such as judges – who are now the opposite of such judges as Sir Edward Coke or Sir John Holt – modern judges have more in common with Sir Francis Bacon and his “The New Atlantis” which, I believe was published in 1610 – the same year as Sir Edward Coke’s judgement in the case of Dr Bonham – which a modern judge would have reversed as modern judges believe in the right of the state to “license” trades and professions), NOT the non aggression principle of not violating the body or goods of other people.
Remember the “Dialogue between a philosopher and a student of the Common Law of England” by Thomas Hobbes – he is “the philosopher” who believes that “law” is the arbitrary whims of the rulers, but modern judges are no longer “students of the Common Law of England” (as Sir Edward Coke and Sir John Holt were) – because modern judges despise the “reactionary” principles of the Common Law, they hate justice and love “Social Justice” (injustice – the robbery of persons and the crushing of dissenting opinions).
Where does it end?
It ends in breakdown – economic and social (cultural – societal) breakdown.
That does appear to be where we are heading.
Fraser Orr:
That’s conventional wisdom but this was not a conventional election, it was a sea-change.
I don’t see many Dems engaging in real soul-searching – and I don’t see them winning mid-term seats running on the same old progressive orthodoxy. Nor do they have the ability to remake themselves in the next two years… that kind of change takes time (as it did/does on the Republican side). And it will be much harder for Clintonesque charlatans to deceive voters given the low level of trust in both the Dem party and the media.
Truths once seen are not so easily unseen… if anything, many cautious fence-sitters now see that they are not alone in their opposition to Woke progressivism. And many will be convinced by the improved safety and economic situation.
The Dems’ energy will be devoted to strident screeching out-of-touch attacks on common-sense reform. Voters will get 2 years of that – alternating on their TV screens with a no-nonsense ex-cop rounding up the illegal aliens, exposes of FBI and DOJ corruption, and Musk and Vance articulating small-gubmint conservatism to young voters.
I’m not worried about the mid-terms… or the next presidential. Vance is very popular with young voters who hear him speak. Many more will hear him over the next 4 years.
That is why I frame this as part of a larger revanchist movement – a lot of Boomer nonsense and hard-core Marxism have accumulated since the 70s in Western/American culture. More and more voters now understand that many “progressive” initiatives they went along with were in fact intended to fundamentally change – and weaken – the West.
The pendulum swings slowly, but has a lot of momentum. It is not just the extreme woke absurdity of the past 20 years that is being reconsidered – but the more crazy-pedo aspects of the gay rights movement, and the anti-male, anti-marriage aspects of 2nd and 3rd wave feminism.
I think Trump can do a lot. Drying up federally funded programs will play well with the conservative base and harm the Dems. It will be hard to make “social justice” pity-mongering stick in the midst of an economic boom.
Trump can dry up the money for Victimhood Studies – and help resolve DEI racial preferences – with the stroke of a pen, by eliminating federal college loans.
There is talk of eliminating the Education Ministry and implementing a national voucher system with a standard core syllabus.
There was also just now a Supreme Court ruling that dealt a blow to environmental legislation at the ministerial level – opening the door to regulatory reform.
Systemic changes like these are popular with voters and will have long term cultural impact.
I also think that America has been more fortunate with its immigrants than the UK… One insight from this election was that the Hispanic and Asian communities are balking at being folded into the Woke pecking order of sacred victim groups. The Asians initially adopted the elite’s opinions, but were disabused by race-based advancement policies that classified them as “white” because of their success. The Latino community is deeply traditional and opposed to LGBT and other progressive agendas.
It is worth remembering that the half of the country that voted for Trump have a healthy birth rate, above replacement levels. The progressive/liberal half of the country is contracting.
If we start with Reagan, we are in the second or third wave of a long-term cultural and political change. There is re-evaluation of the dramatic changes of the postwar era. There already was a movement back towards traditional marriage among millennials.
————————————————————–
But this thread was about Britain.
I don’t know enough to evaluate the parallel movements in the UK. I know Farage and others are fighting the same fight as American conservatives.
My impression is that despite Brexit there has been a greater shift to socialism, a larger cultural shift to post-modernism, a greater influx of inimical immigrants. I don’t think the UK has the same core of white Christians that the US has – they are certainly invisible in the media I consume.
Mr Hannan is right about how some foreigners, and specifically, Americans, see the UK, but that ‘some’ is a tiny minority of the politically-informed and -aware. The vast majority of Americans have a generally-rosy and -idyllic view of the UK, consisting of equal parts of Downton Abbey, Doc Martin, William-and-Kate, All Creatures Great and Small, guardsmen in funny hats, warm beer, eccentric sports cars, Spitfires and Lancasters, football teams with funny names, Harry Potter, and a hundred other, similar media tropes. They’re unaware of the great economic and social challenges facing the UK, and they don’t want to be aware – the UK is, in many ways, a vast theme park of their imagination, and who wants to see behind the facades of a theme park? I saw a story yesterday of a tourist at the ‘Platform 9 3/4’ location at King’s Cross who actually hurt himself trying to walk through the brick wall like in the movies – that’s how they think about the UK.
llater,
llamas
As to how the USA sees GB/UK/JOE – It will be interesting what tone Trump takes towards y’all.
He’s been good on the “special relationship” in the past – when your pols weren’t outright making fun of him – but he’s likely not a fan of your current admin at all. He puts up with disrespect from people supposedly aligned with him much more peaceably than he does from “enemies.” Labour are “enemies.” But then, the Tories weren’t his close friends in the past either.
And his acolytes will adopt whatever tone he puts forth.
I think he has a bare year to get things done before the right side collapses on him in disarray. We have MAGA, we have the DeSantis crowd, and we have the old-guard GOP, and none of them seem likely to try to make intramural peace with each other. (Watch them interact on X for a good time.)
So I’m guessing Trump loses any benefit of a Republican Congress quickly, as the factions start positioning for his lame-duck status almost immediately.
Remember, he had almost no congressional support during much of his first term, and that was with only two factions. Now he faces at least three.
I share BenDavid’s optimism, cautiously; but still, i share it more than i share bobby’s lawyer-pessimism.
But there is a fine point about this sentence from BenDavid:
What voters should understand — and optimistically many of them do, in a sort-of-inarticulate way — is that such “progressive” initiatives were primarily intended to give more power to the establishment, and to weaken small business and the working class.
That the West as a whole is weakened as a consequence, is probably a minor concern to the establishment.
Llamas, there is truth to what you say.
That said, I would argue that in my trips around the world in the past few months that I have had a few interactions with expat Brits and a few Europeans who are alarmed at what’s happening in the U.K.
It’s certainly true that the vast majority of the population don’t think about the U.K. at all. I’m guessing that Hannan is mainly focused on those who follow news regularly from around the world.
Elon Musk’s comments about the U.K. are read by a lot of people. This stuff compounds over time.
we have the DeSantis crowd
What is the timescale for choosing a replacement for Marco Rubio? A swift appointment of Matt Gaetz would be a welcome and powerful signal that a key player in a key state is firmly onside. This is not the time for internecine shenanigans.
Whatever happens Trump has got
The executive order and they have not.
@IrishOtter49
Whatever happens Trump has got
The executive order and they have not.
Trump has that right and surely we will see,
The courts decide constitutionality.
I love how more than half of he comments here have nothing to do with the OP but are about what Trump might or might do, be allowed to do, etc.
I suppose I should have got used to it after 23 years.
@ Johnathan Pearce – I was last in UK just-about a year ago. Here’s a partial list of groups of total strangers that I met and spoke with. a) a group of volunteer mechanics at Shuttleworth b) the lunchtime crowd in the public bar of the ‘Barnes Wallis’ in Howden c) a group drinking tea next to the public piano on the concourse at King’s Cross d) a reunion of guys I was at college with some 50 years ago e) a group of folks running a heritage steam railway in Yorkshire f) the vicar of a CofE parish church g) a hotel receptionist in Peterborough. Every Single Person asked me about the candidacy of Donald Trump and his chances in the election, then still more than a year away. There’s not one American in 100 who could tell you who is the Prime Minister of the UK – today. That’s the difference in how the great majority in each nation perceives the other.
llater,
llamas
Trump should not pardon Hunter Biden. I’d suggest he does the opposite and puts maximum pressure on the Biden’s and all his enemies. Ferocious lawfare. That then can put Trump in a strong position from which to back down to a reasonable position.
He should use the same approach when governing. Just sign anything Vivek and Elon puts in front of him and worry about how to get it through later. The process is designed to prohibit change. Whilst that is good thing if you are starting from a base of small government, it’s not a good thing if you are trying to scale back government. (This is why if I was given a sole constitutional innovation to make, I would require 60% to pass a law but only 40% to remove one already on the books).
@Johnathan Pearce
I suppose I should have got used to it after 23 years.
Isn’t part of the charm of sitting in the pub chatting with your mates that the conversation wanders from the original topic to explore different ideas? With the occasional “but guys getting back to the original topic…” It seems part of the pleasure of conversation to me.
Though I have often heard in a British pub someone admonish me “you damn yanks think the world revolves around America.” Which might be your actual point that I totally missed. (FWIW, we damn yanks DO think the world revolves around America. 😀)
Jon:
Joe Biden should definitely be investigated about Burisma, just to clear the air.
But, after the investigation, Trump should probably pardon him: after all, Joe did everything he could do to ensure that Trump got elected this year!
I have a different proposal: a majority in both chambers is, and should be, required to pass a law, but a majority in either chamber should be sufficient to repeal a law.
Bobby b:
Don’t know why you mean by the deSantis crowd – deSantis is a real conservative and perceptive enough to fall in behind Trump for the good of these movement. His state is a show case for the success of small gubmint conservatism.. he and Vance will continue what hs been started.
I am more concerned with Rubio and Cruze.
Any old guard RINOs that oppose Trump’s implementation of his mandate know that they will be prinaried for it – and the clever ones understand that they are likely to lose that primary given how the wind is blowing, Some are already gone.
Again: this was a watershed election that will change how the herd – call them The Silenced Majority – talk and vote. To say nothing of the MAGA loyalists.
Yes, the MAGA camp won a broad, undeniable mandate. It is no longer about that uncouth Orange Man.
The RINO old guard and nevertrumpers are a half step away from the irrelevance of their Dem pals. They are unlikely to cause much grief
On the United States – I do not think that either the monetary or fiscal problems will be tackled.
Ronald Reagan toyed with restoring gold money – but he never made a real effort to do so, and he toyed with “Entitlement” reform – the various unconstitutional (yes unconstitutional – “general welfare” is the PURPOSE of the specific spending powers granted by Article One, Section Eight, there is no “general welfare spending power” – corrupt courts to the contrary) benefits that the Federal Government hands out (there are no “trust funds” they are a lie – they always were a lie), but Ronald Reagan never really tried to this either.
Donald Trump will not do what even Ronald Reagan failed to do – and it would have been a lot less difficult then than it would be to do now.
So the economic system will not be reformed – it will collapse. That is not the fault of President Trump – it is the fault of the people who created these schemes – which have inevitably (yes inevitably) grown like cancers – once created these schemes would expand without limit – till the economy was destroyed. Just as a Credit Money monetary system produces distortions in the economy (in the Capital Structure) which get more and more extreme over time – till collapse is “achieved”. Both the present fiscal situation and the present monetary situation is hopeless.
However, and it is a very important “however”, it is to be hoped that economic collapse under Trump/Vance will not be used as an excuse to impose totalitarianism (international totalitarianism) as it would have been under Harris/Waltz – or will be in the United Kingdom.
The First and Second Amendments stand a chance of surviving in the United States – such basic rights-against-the-state are already gone in the United Kingdom.
What remains to be seen is whether the United States will rebuild a sound economy AFTER collapse (collapse is inevitable – but it does NOT have to be for ever), in the United Kingdom there is much less hope of rebuilding after economic collapse.
I agree. He was my first (or sometimes second) choice. I don’t mean to impugn him.
But he has a large crowd of “followers” that remain implacably opposed to Trump and MAGA because DeSantis was not selected.
They remain the smallest of the three GOP factions, but they’ve proven themselves rabid and determined. And they include Congresspeople and Reps.
Watch as Trump’s proposals garner maybe 2/3 of the “Republican” Congress. That oppo will be driven, first, by the old-guard GOP, and then to a smaller extent by the now-never-Trump set who characterize themselves as DeSantis people. As a consequence, Trump is going to have to actively seek some Dem support.
(The Trump crowd has so totally demonized the DeSantis crowd that I doubt any reapproachment can be had in the near future. It’s a bitter hostility at best.)
((Almost forgot: and none of them will have the time to “think of England” for a while, except to hate or love the political figures there depending upon their attitudes towards their favored US figure.))
I should add to my 10:50 comment above:
But, what do I know? I was shocked – but happily shocked – when Trump won.
@BenDavid
I am more concerned with Rubio and Cruze.
I am concerned with Rubio. I think it is clear that he appointed Rubio to make a space for his daughter in law to become the Junior senator from Florida. Rubio is a minor neocon. However, his problem is that if he doesn’t get in line with Trump and then Trump fires him he will be in forever limbo. He’ll be done. The Secretary of State of the USA is going to be named Donald J Trump. Rubio will help, but he’ll have very tight guard rails. My guess? Rubio is planning to ride the pony for two years then run for the governor of Florida when Desantis term limits out.
As to Cruz, TBH I have had mixed feelings on him in the past, but he is a loyal MAGA guy and I think he will be a big help for Trump in the Senate.
Yes, the MAGA camp won a broad, undeniable mandate. It is no longer about that uncouth Orange Man.
I think this is overstating the case. I know a lot of MAGA people want to believe it, but he really didn’t. He won a small majority and has weak control of both houses of congress. Very weak. Congress people will be a little hands tied for the first year or so, but we should fully expect some people to oppose Trump. Plus is worth pointing out that McConnell is very old, slightly losing his marbles, and a pretty big opponent of Trump. This is particularly significant because the governor of Kentucky is, surprisingly, a democrat. With Collins from Maine and Murkowski from Alaska he is down to 50-50 in the Senate. Murkowski isn’t going anywhere because her family has designed the election law in Alaska such that it is practically impossible to get rid of her no matter how much Alaskans hate her.
Trump has the wind at his back for sure, but don’t overestimate the strength of his position. He’ll have to play it hard to shore it up. And the midterms are not at all favorable to the Republicans.
Sorry, I know, twittering about the US government is completely OT.
Bobby b:
It would indeed be unfortunate if personal grudges came between conservatives who should be allied.
Fraser Orr:
1. Thanks for the insights about Rubio. I did not no DeSantis was terming out.
2. You are correct that the devil is in the details of actual vote counts. And everyone in Washington is not suddenly all in for reforms.
But it looks like the MAGA team has strategized based on the assumption that Congress is part of the swamp to be drained, and must be managed or worked around. Just like they learned to ignore the mainstream media and go directly to the voter. The DOGE is clearly born of these strategic lessons, and will be used to set the agenda and put public pressure on Congress-critters.
Also a lot of regulatory overreach can be undone within the executive branch without Congressional say-so – certainly enough to demonstrate results by the midterms.
—————————————
This was a Glasnost election.
It exploded heads on the Left – but more importantly, it cracked open a lot of minds among the mainstream herd… and will loosen many tongues.
All calculations, choice of talking points, campaigns, and memes by Congress critters, beltway types, and MSM will now take place in a completely different cultural atmosphere. And those who oppose the reforms are now the ones going against the cultural headwinds.
The ratchet used to operate ever Leftward. There was a sense of inevitability to the smart kids’ claims of “progress”.
That momentum has now shifted to the conservatives and small-L liberals.
I repeat – what President Reagan could not do when the debt was one Trillion Dollars and some States (Arizona) had only just accepted key “entitlement” programs such as Medicare (it came in 1965 in most States but not all) will not be done by President Trump now the debt is over thirty six Trillion Dollars.
President Trump will not restore gold money – which President Reagan toyed with, but was unable to do in the political circumstances he found himself, so the fiat (whim or credit) money will continue to distort the Capital Structure in wilder and wilder ways till the whole edifice collapses.
And the “entitlements” (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and official welfare such as Food Stamps) will continue to explode in cost as they have done for 60 years – there are no trust fund investments, there never were any trust fund investments, it is all a lie, it has always been a lie – right back to “LBJ” and “FDR”. “LBJ” and “FDR” did not care about the future – so that is where we are now (what was the future to them, which they did not care about “in the long run we are all dead” – said Keynes who died in 1946, is our present in the United States and the rest of the Western world).
The American economy will collapse – there is nothing President Trump, or anyone else, can do to prevent that. Not at this point.
However…..
It is to be hoped that basic Civil Liberties (the First and Second Amendments – already lost in the United Kingdom) will remain in the United States – had “Harris/Walz” been elected they would have appointed judges who would have utterly destroyed Freedom of Speech and the right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Will the American economy be rebuilt after the present monetary and fiscal system collapses?
I do not know – but it is possible, American might recover.
Will the British economy be rebuilt after the present monetary and fiscal system collapses?
It is unlikely that it will recover.