“Global calls for reparations are only growing louder. Why is Britain still digging in its heels?”, asks Hilary Beckles, the chair of the Caribbean Reparations Commission.
The original version of this post said, “The answer is that even Sir Keir Starmer, the man who suffered the swiftest fall in popularity of any incoming British prime minister since polling began, has enough minimal awareness of political reality not to touch this one.” Then I saw an update to the Guardian‘s daily politics liveblog. It said, “Starmer ‘open to discussing non-cash forms of reparatory justice for slavery'”. Wow. This is like a man on a life-raft being open to discussing non-meat based forms of food justice with the circling sharks.
The BBC has up a story that currently has the headline “Commonwealth leaders to defy UK on slavery reparations”. The BBC’s original headline, under which it was posted to the /r/ukpolitics subreddit, was “Commonwealth heads of government to defy UK on reparatory justice”. The UKpolitics subreddit leans strongly left, but the most-recommended comment was this one by redditor LycanIndarys:
“A report published last year by the University of West Indies – backed by Patrick Robinson, a judge who sits on the International Court of Justice – concluded the UK owed more than £18tn in reparations for its role in slavery in 14 Caribbean countries.”
OK, so just as a rough guide to get your head around that sort of figure, total annual UK government spending is about £1.2tn. So if we scrapped every single thing that the UK government does, and devoted all government spending to paying these reparations, then it would still take 16 years to pay. And of course, the UK would collapse in the mean-time, because we would have no health-service, no military, no roads, no benefits, no education, etc.
Or if we would instead put it on our national debt, then we’d be looking at a significant increase from our current debt of £2.3tn. Effectively increasing our debt by a factor of 8. I assume the repayments on that would also cripple us, but I’ll admit I haven’t calculated the figures.
Put aside any morality on this, or thoughts about why some people seem to think that trans-Atlantic slavery is the only crime ever committed (a suspiciously American outlook), and look at this in pure political terms. Any government that agreed to pay those reparations would lose in a landslide to another party that had “stop giving money to the freeloading bastards” as line one in their manifesto, wouldn’t they?
You know how people always complain about Foreign Aid, because they don’t see the benefit on sending UK taxpayer money abroad? Well imagine the reaction to that, but about a sum of money literally a thousand times bigger.
Of course the UK could also calculate the cost of [in current terms] the Royal Navy anti-slavery patrols and intervention in the 1800’s, add an appropriate amount of interest for the elapsed time since then and send it to Beckles for immediate resolution.
I really don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the way they try to couch this in such solemn moral terms.
Here, it’s perfectly justifiable to shoot the messengers: a collection of moral degenerates who wallow in self righteous showboating while the shiteholes they purportedly care for sink further into the fetid twilight of savagery from whence they came.
Why don’t they, the “developing” world, actually, well, develop? (Much of the non-white, non-western world seems to have managed, or at least is making some sort of demonstrable effort)
Can’t, or won’t (or both)? That should be our response.
For what it’s worth, I reckon it’s both so any money sent (including “aid”) is just being thrown into a black hole. No pun intended of course.
If you are interested where they came up with this $18tn figure, it is from this report. Needless to say it is utter bullshit.
If even der Starmer thinx it’s a bad idea maybe it’s not such a bad idea. What would be a bad idea though, would be letting the mendicant nations decide if global reparations are needed, and if so, how much. Perhaps just pay a back-to-Africa programme and let the benefits gained through past development slide as sunk costs. Proper economic analysis is needed.
On the same tack, if the mendicant nations of the Pacific want an end to fossil fuels, a good place to start would be in their own territory. They could refuse fossil fuel powered shipping, air transport, electricity generation and agricultural and horticultural machinery. We could take them seriously if they lived up to their demands on us
I’m sure that our creative accounting Chancellor can find a way to sell the idea – to the Cabinet.
Strange spelling of the word “Spain” there.
The UK’s role in slavery (as opposed to British *people’s* role) was in ruthlessly stamping out the Atlantic slave trade, spending 3.5% of GDP and 25% of all government spending for 100 years, invading foreign countries, engaging in regime change to overthrow the people creating the slave supply.
Slavery reparations essentially results in fining someone for belonging to the wrong race.
Here in the US the scheme is complicated by the fact the de facto fine would extend to demographics such as Hispanics whose ancestry is not connected with US slavery.
Reparations: Money demanded from the descendants of slaves who are not suffering slavery from people who are the descendants of people who did something not illegal at the time, 10 generations ago.
My Norwegian ancestors first arrived here just 40 years before I was born, so I’m going to deny a connection with US slavery too.
That kind of scheme is gonna be tough on the Italians and every country in the Middle East.
Reeves categorically refused to pay reparations.
Of course the idea of reparations is absolutely ridiculous. The UK needs to put its foot down definitively and remind the world that Britain ended slavery unilaterally. That was all the reparations that were ever needed anyway. Blair apologized for historic slavery in 2007, which was stupid at the time and it seems Blair himself has realized that since. It only emboldened the guilt-tripping parasites.
If the Commonwealth of Nations passes any kind of resolution that Britain must pay reparations it is time for Britain to leave that organization.
Bobby b, Norwegians were Vikings centuries ago! Vikings practiced slavery, and set fire to lots of places. Just pay up- you are guilty!
The purpose of such statements is not the expectation that the headline grabbing figure will be paid, but to gain acknowledgement that reparations should be paid at all opening up the possibility of a lower number. It is anchoring and should be swiftly and firmly rejected. Which, true to form, the Starmtruppen did not do.
My great grandfather, an immigrant from Ireland, joined the Union Army at age 15, still speaking Gaelic as his primary language, and served in an Illinois Volunteer cavalry regiment until he was wounded. Three great uncles, also born in Ireland, served in the Union Army (Illinois Volunteer Regiments): two were killed in the Battle of Chickamauga and one was severely wounded and endured the effects of his wounding for the rest of his life.
My family has paid enough, and in the currency that really matters.
@Mark- Indeed, nearly every African state has been independent for over 6o years now. How’s it the west’s fault if they are still shitholes?
It was the West African states that were doing the actual enslaving, and selling the slaves to the traders. When are they going to poney up reparations? I notice that David Lammy’s ancestors are from the tribes that did the enslaving. When is he going to personally pony up and apologise?
Everybody has slaves, and slavers, somewhere in their history. We’ve been around for tens of thousands of years, and some of our ancestors did things the reparationists would be glad to define as slavery. It’s like Original Sin: we’re all guilty.
Where are the slaves and where are the slave owners? Both are dead.
As for “enslavement” the slaves were enslaved by fellow Africans, slavery had been endemic in Africa for thousands of years.
If there are any slaves still alive (unlikely after a couple of centuries) they should sue any living enslavers in Africa – although it is unlikely that they are still alive after a couple of centuries.
I also note that there is no demand for “Reparations” from the Islamic powers – who following the example of Muhammed, engaged in slave trading till at least the 1960s (within my own lifetime).
As for the British – they were themselves subject to enslavement, both by the Romans (although there was slavery long before the Romans) and by the Vikings, and by Islamic raiding.
The only special thing about the British in regards to slavery is their century-long war AGAINST slavery around the world.
It is also wrong, indeed very racist, to treat black people in the Caribbean as all the same – as some sort of “lump”.
Tell a black citizen of the Dominican Republic that he or she is the same as a black citizen of Haiti (next door) and you are likely to get a punch in the face.
Their language is different, their history is different, their culture and belief system is different – for example Dominican Republic people are horrified by the cannibalism of “Commander Barbecue” and others in Haiti.
Yes the Dominican Republic did fight a war against “colonialism” – the colonialism of the Haiti, which invaded them and ruled them, with brutal tyranny, for decades.
According the Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom, Mr David Lammy, the Charles Street Offices of the Foreign Office administered colonies with “millions of slaves” – the offices were built in 1868, slavery in the British Empire was abolished in the 1830s.
Also according Mr Lammy his ancestors were enslaved by “the British” in what is now Guyana – in reality his ancestors were enslaved by other Africans and then sold to the Dutch, who ruled what is now Guyana when Mr Lammy’s ancestors arrived there.
I must not give the impression that Mr Lammy is more ignorant than a lot of other people (of all races) – on the contrary there are very large numbers of people (of all races) just as ignorant as him – witness the number of people who say that Mr Floyd, who died of drugs he willingly consumed, was “murdered”.
The population of the British West Indies (including Belize) is just over 6M. 18T pounds would be 3M apiece. Interest income on this would be 130K pounds/year. The recipients would instantly become the wealthiest people on earth.
“I must not give the impression that Mr Lammy is more ignorant than a lot of other people (of all races)”
You don’t have to, he’s doing a sterling job himself!
Should any payment of reparations start with those peoples that were the source of the slave trade, namely those did the capturing and first sale.
Mark – “you might say that, but I could not possibly comment”.
Abdul Abulbul Amir – indeed, and some of he descendants of the African slave traders who enslaved and sold fellow Africans are very much alive, for example former President Barack Obama – whose ancestors enslaved people and sold them to Middle Eastern buyers.
One of the reasons that there are few black people in the Middle East, in spite of more 14 centuries of capturing and selling Africans, is the common practice of castrating males and killing the babies of female slaves (sometimes by smashing the heads of the babies against walls – is this what K. Harris means by “reproductive rights”?).
Muhammed famously, or infamously, did not like the look of black people (there is no need repeat the things he said here – people can look them up if they wish to do so) – but the practice of castration can NOT be traced back to him (he appears to be innocent of doing this).
So why the practice of mass castration? The old answer “to guard harems” is a bit silly – most black male slaves were not employed for this task. Perhaps the reason is the massive slave revolt that took place in what is now southern Iraq – this took years of terrible war to destroy, vast numbers of dead.
After this, castration appears to have become more fashionable – in order to make male slaves more docile, and the killing of babies of female slaves (after the female slaves had been raped) was to prevent a mixed race population growing up – otherwise Constantinople (“Istanbul”) and Damascus (and so on) would look like American cities – there would be lots of black people.
However, it is NOT the case that all black slaves were castrated in the Islamic world – for example the slave that the Islamic Ottoman Empire gave as a present to Peter the Great of Russia was NOT castrated.
This African man (and he was a black man – all the sources agree on this) became a General in the Russian army (and accomplished engineer) – his direct descendant was Pushkin, the most famous Russian poet.
I have little to add. Except to comment that the real story here is that nobody in power has called this barking mad. Which it is. Obviously.
NickM – agreed.
Well, it’s clear Starmer has no backbone. What a joke.
bobby b
You might well claim that, but if one person in Denmark-Norway or ‘Sweden-Norway’ pre 1865 used, say, one (US) cotton wool bud, then there is a link to slavery and so recompense is due. Coming to the US Court of the Southern District of New York any time soon.
Any decent loss-adjuster will assess a claim with the concept of ‘betterment’: Prang your 2 year old car, you cannot get a brand-new one on your insurance policy as you have not lost a ‘brand-new’ one, you have lost what you had at the time of the accident, and if you want to buy a new car, you pay the difference in price aka ‘betterment’.
So if you live in the Caribbean and are descended from slaves, you have to assess a hypothetical lifestyle you would have had in your ancestral home absent your ancestors enslavement, and if you are better off in the Caribbean, you offset your betterment against the value of your claim (your claim being properly for the anguish of knowing what happened to your ancestors).
And if you are part-descended from non-slaves, e.g. c. 15% European admixture, you only get 85% of the ‘full Slave’ descendants, and pay 15% of the reparations due from your ‘European’ ancestors.
Is anyone trying to make this workable?
Alex,
From your link…
Reparations for the benefit of those who suffered as a result of slavery could take many forms, from financial to symbolic.
OK, let’s go symbolic. Let’s build the statue celebrating the RN’s West Africa Squadron and call it quits. Deal?
Mr Ed,
I was going to post a longer reply above much along your lines (I’m from the NE of England and have partially Norwegian ancestory so what’s that mean with respect to Viking rape and pillage?) but I couldn’t be bothered. It isn’t workable at all. I cannot help but wonder if some people consider this a feature, rather than a bug. Maybe not. Maybe they are too blinded by the “fact” all white folks are bad.
OK, I’ll bite. Here’s another one. “Suffered from slavery”. Poor white folks in the slave-states of the USA did. How could they compete for wages in a slave-based economy?
The best “reperation” for slavery is forward-looking. Let’s not grant things like the World cup to places like Qatar where the stadia were built by – to all intents and purposes – slaves. Or what about the Uyghurs… Look at this…
From The Guardian!
Might I suggest there is a reasonable chance the a few of the keffiyah scarves worn by “Queers for Palestine” were made by Muslim slaves in China?
Mr Ed and Nick M.
According to the forces that control many American cities (and many British cities) if you are “white” (pinkish grey) you are automatically evil and guilty – because of “social justice” (the doctrine that many courts now support – replacing traditional justice which is “reactionary”). So, regardless of where your ancestors came from, you must pay Reparations – and you must be denied employment, so other people can get these positions.
“White” (pinkish gray) people are leaving such cities – and understandably so. The fact that many of the people who created these doctrines were themselves “white”, is one of the ironies of history.
Remember hating “white” people and discriminating against them is “anti” racism.
Just as hating men and discriminating against them is “anti” sexism”.
And hating people of the sexuality that produces children is also a “Good Thing” (TM).
Western Civilization is “evil” (“evil” because it is based on individual freedom and private property rights of individuals and families especially in LAND) and must be destroyed – that is the position of the international establishment elite, who themselves have done very well out of the civilization they are fanatically committed to destroy.
I’m embarrassed to say that I’m not up on the reparations literature so can someone please tell me, “what are the criteria for being qualified to receive reparations?” How long after the inhumanity does one need to wait and which inhumanities cross the threshold of deserving reparations? What forms of reparations are acceptable…just money or are there other restorations of justice that qualify?”
I ask because an entire generation of young men have been irreparably harmed. I’m speaking of men who are younger than about 35. At least in the US. They have been systematically told that their masculinity is toxic, that they need not work hard, that marriage is a foul institution, and so on. It has demoralized them, caused increases in suicide, and has harmed society by the loss of their contributions.
I’m not sure they can recover, but I am sure they are owed something by those who did this, and are still doing it, to them.
Where do they go for justice?
Most of the men in question are white heterosexuals so not a high priority for those in power…which is part of the issue.
I’m writing this a bit tongue in cheek, but the point is serious IMO.
@bobby b
My Norwegian ancestors first arrived here just 40 years before I was born, so I’m going to deny a connection with US slavery too.
God, what chutzpah to just openly admit it!!! My British ancestors were constantly raided by your people raping and pillaging and taking our people off to your cold fjords to work your farms. And what about Lindisfarne? With interest that must be a few billions just there.
You owe me and my family BIG time. A couple of million should do it. I accept dollars and/or bitcoin.
I’ve been mulling over Mr. Ed’s prescient comment on betterment for a few days, and find that it sets out the basis for a workable scheme for adjudication of claims for reparations, involving a review of the equities on both sides.
In the spirit of that scheme. I will be forwarding to you, as a complete reparational remedy, seven pounds of lutefisk.
Yours,
bobby, Son Of Ulrick the Destroyer
Scandinavia is not clean WRT African and New World slavery. Denmark had several slave-trading posts in West Africa, and had slave-worked plantations in its colony in the Virgin Islands. Norway was part of Denmark from 1660 to 1814.