Islamist extremism remains the predominant terror threat in the UK. Islamist terrorists have claimed the lives of 94 people from the 2005 7/7 bombings onwards (far-right terrorists, for all the media hype about this threat, have killed just three people in the same period). The weekly ‘pro-Palestine’ demos in London and elsewhere have given vent to all manner of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Polling shows that anti-Semitic views (while nowhere near a majority) are more likely to be held by Muslims than the general population – especially by Muslims who are poorly integrated into British society. Sectarian voting along religious lines is also fast becoming a grim feature of our politics.
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Samizdata quote of the day – Islamism must be on the agenda in this electionSamizdata Illuminatus (Arkham, Massachusetts) · Middle East & Islamic · Slogans & Quotations · UK affairs May 31st, 2024 |
 22 comments to Samizdata quote of the day – Islamism must be on the agenda in this electionLeave a Reply |
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Opposing Islam (there is no such thing as “Islamism” as something different from what Muhammed taught and personally did) can NOT be on the agenda in this election – because if anyone says anything opposing Islam, or thought-to-be opposing Islam, they are likely to be punished.,
And punishments are going to get a lot worse – it will soon not “just” be administrative punishment (such as the one year suspension from my political party that I got) it will be criminal punishment – “Islamophobia” i.e. opposing the doctrines of Islam, the teachings and actions of Muhammed, will be made a criminal offense by the next Labour government. Dr Gavin Ashenden, Anglican chaplain of the late Queen Elizabeth II (now a Roman Catholic) has examined the proposed law – and it would outlaw all dissent on this matter.
As people round here want the Conservative Party to lose this election, indeed to be wiped out, they are, whether they know it or not, supporting making dissent on the matter of Islam a criminal offense.
Islamic “extremism”, Muslims “poorly integrated”.
Either someone supports the teachings and the personal actions (deeds) of Muhammed or they do not. “Extremism” and “poorly integrated” are beside-the-point.
Yes, there’s such a thing as Islamism, and its not debatable because it’s a semantic thing (& its a digression from the real issue). Islamism means political Islam, sectarian Islam, as opposed to some schmuck running a corner shop who just happens to be muslim & does really care about much else.
David Levi said:
You, my good man, are a sucker. Do you also believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus?
The only way to separate “Islamism” from the Muslim is by apostasy, which is punishable by death in their faith. You cannot possibly be so dense as to have failed to notice how many of those “poor schmuck(s) running (a) corner shop(s)” there have been who have suddenly fallen prey to “Sudden Jihadi Syndrome”, can you? Where you have “poor schmuck Muslims”, you inevitably have extremists, because the second is generated by the first, whenever and wherever one of them suffers a setback or “gets that olde tyme religion” for some personal reason. Usually, guilt about what a lousy Muslim they’ve been, allowing those nasty, nasty kaffirs to exist and follow their own faiths…
Islam is what it is, and what it is would be a quasi-religious politico-cultural movement based on never-ending conquest and banditry. That’s why the Middle East is what it is today… The once “Fertile Crescent” is a sere brown desert, mostly because “Islam”, and their utter inability to tolerate or get along with anyone. Do remember exactly why Genghis Khan did what he did, leaving off the conquest of China to come West, mostly because the Islamic Kwarazim murdered and robbed his peaceful trading emissaries, while arrogantly sending back their heads.
Islam is a mess, and will remain a mess until it is scraped off the face of the world. If you bother to actually read their “holy” books, and wrap your head around the fact that they really, truly capital-letter “B” Believe that bullshit… You’re a damn fool whose children, if any survive the slave pens, will curse your name into the indefinite future.
Think I’m the extremist, the nasty bastard that is demonstrating “Islamophobia”, or some similar silly construction? Allow me to remind you of who you are dealing with, in Islam:
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/men-should-have-sex-slaves-says-female-kuwaiti-politician-1.399715
That’s a female Islamic politician. Those are your daughters and sisters she’s talking about as being “legitimate sex slaves”.
Now, tell me: Did any of your “poor schmuck” shopkeeping Muslims denounce this woman and her “interpretation” of Islam? Did you see any “learned and austere religious scholars” of Islam saying that she was wrong, and that such things are outrageous on the face of them, and that she should be excoriated for her beliefs?
Nope. Didn’t happen.
Islam is a blight upon the earth, but I think credulous and well-meaning patsies such as yourself are just about as bad. Just like with Hitler, they’ve damn well told you and telegraphed their intent, yet you refuse to listen or acknowledge the facts while bad-mouthing anyone who demurs at your incredible lack of comprehension.
I’m reminded, every time I read one of these “defenses of reasonable Muslims” those times I’ve watched idiot tourists trying to get up close and personal with bison at Yellowstone. They’re told those animals are dangerous and not to be approached, but they never, ever listen. “Oh, let’s get a picture of the kids with the fluffy cows…”
You, my friend, are the precise same sort of person. Ask anyone forced to live cheek-by-jowl with Islam in a conquered country, like the Yazidi. They’ll tell you all about how nice it is to live with them, and how their “poor schmuck” neighbors sold them and their children out to Isis the minute they could. I know a sole-survivor Yazidi who lost everyone in his family to Isis because his “poor schmuck” neighbors that his family had taken in and hidden from Saddam’s death squads back in the day turned on them at the first opportunity, in order to steal their farms, homes, and shops.
You’ll learn, or your children will. Likely them, and they’ll probably curse your name and very existence on into the future for generations to come.
About one-half mile to my north is a fundamentalist Christian church. Literal beliefs that all biblical words are true and to be honored, stern disapproval of all those who do not believe as they believe, militant activism as needed.
About two miles to my south is a “new” Christian church, led by a couple of lesbian ministers. “Friendly” bibles, creeds rewritten as situations demand, happy people just looking for fellowship in . . . something. More of a social club, really.
The stern ones work hard to drive the loose ones “back” to God’s Word, while the loose ones decry the use of religion to cause pain or discomfort or unease.
So, yeah, there are different sub-religions – differing levels of religiosity, different basic values, different versions of where good and evil lie – inside each religion. Islam, and Christianity too. Islam’s main difference lies in how militantly its fundy groups demand fealty to their god.
Our mistake was to accept, as a new and valuable religion here in the West, a sect that beheads unbelievers. Those people ought to die out.
There are definitely different “sub-religions”.
I am still here in Southern Italy, and have done some manual work with an Albanian Muslim who drinks beer, celebrates Christmas, and worships a local Catholic Saint. Fully integrated.
The question remains, who is susceptible to Sudden Jihad Syndrome?
I do not think that upper-working class people like my new friend are susceptible — but who is?
Jeez Kirk, deep breaths. A paper bag can help. There most certainly are Muslims who don’t mean anybody any harm. I worked and socialized with guys who identified as Persian whose families got out when the Shah fell. They were “A cup of wine, a loaf of bread and thou” Muslims. They had secret popup night clubs because they were afraid of the jihadis who would killed them for apostasy. When I was in Egypt in the 80s some Turkish guys were killed by jihadis while they were enjoying themselves in a street cafe. Remember that poor bastard Muslim up north (UK) who wished his customers happy Easter? Some bastard jihadi went up there and killed him.
You are overlooking the elephant in the room. When oil was discovered in Arabia instead of giving the natives a sack of glass beads, a couple of cases of firewater and a pile of blankets the the US foolishly gave them money. Lots and lots of money. Oceans of money. The saudis have used that money to radicalize Muslims all around the world. They build mosques all over Europe. They and their “strict” wahabi sect are the enemy.
There are muslims in the UK who came many years ago to get away from the nutters and live in peace. Then the traitorous UK government invited in the nutters who promptly began radicalizing their children. So no, I don’t believe every random Muslim wants to kill me and enslave my family, but many of them are “acting out” because they are getting away with it. That needs stop.
Islam is problematic because whilst not entirely monolithic its core texts and the historicity of Muhammed (PBUH*) are pretty fixed. And they are nasty. Torture, rape, raids, treating (mainly female) captives as “war-booty” is all there in the biography of “The Most Perfect Man Who Ever Lived”. It’s very difficult to get around. Yes, there are Muslims who are goood people but that is because they are bad Muslims. And, yes, a lot of good Muslims wish them harm. Probably more harm than they wish the rest of us – apart from Jews, obviously. Because we’re just kaffirs whilst the bad Muslims are apostates
In the West. People really don’t get this. People really, deliberately, misunderstand Islam and conflate a dislike of it with racism. The reaction of many to the 7/10 atrocity ranging from apathy to treating this raid (which was entirely in the style of the Prophet) almost as something like Washington crossing the Delaware is stunning. The unthinking celebrating “diversity” for the sheer sake of it without any questions has become the West’s new faith. How else do you explain “Queers for Palestine”?
Yes, the Saudis have been stirring the pot to distract their plebs from the obscene disparity of wealth and opportunity in the Unmagic Kingdom but this has only really born fruit in the West because of the West’s weakness. It’s absurd guilt about being historically successful for the past few hundred years and the idea that this was all a zero-sum game. Britain got rich which means we must have stolen it from someone. Ask people what the Royal Navy was up to in the C19th off the coast of West Africa. I wonder how many will get the answer right? We are tearing ourselves apart over historical wrongs that were righted 200 years ago yet turn a blind eye to the slavery which built the venues of the ludicrous Qatar World Cup venues.
I could go on. But oddly enough I have an appointment with a bad Muslim who is a good man! He actuall does literally run a corner shop.
*The “P” is for “pigs”.
Islam (of all flavours) is like the Borg, unstoppable until someone draws a line in the sand and says ‘this far, no further’ but it’s too late for that now.
In similar debates a decade or two ago, I recall people bringing up Indonesia as an example of why Islam could be good. I recently realized I haven’t seen this sort of argument lately, and am too lazy to look up why.
Even if they had a point, it was never relevant to questions about groups funded by Middle Eastern terror organizations. Likewise, pro-Muslim groups who protested “Muslim bans” that didn’t cover Indonesia showed their true priorities.
David Levi – someone either supports what Muhammed taught and personally did, or they do not.
If they do support what Muhammed taught and personally did – they are a Muslim, if they do not support it they are NOT a Muslim (regardless of what they call themselves – “identify as” does not work, otherwise I am a fighter aircraft – if I identify as one).
Muhammed was very clear about people who called themselves Muslims, but would not do what they were supposed to spread the power of Islam – he called them “hypocrites” and they were subject to capital punishment.
None of this is rocket science – it is straight forward, but many people (including some Israelis) refuse to understand it – and this refusal is a choice, they are choosing not to understand.
Muhammed was a political and military genius – and although he could not (as far as we know) write, he was also a brilliant and inspiring teacher – the people who followed him understood what he wanted them to do. It is clear to this day.
JuliaM wrote:
Never forget Spain’s Reconquista was started by 200 men in the hills sick of Islam. It took a while, but they still got what they wanted in the end. We just need to have the willingness to do what must be done and face the consequences. But we’re not there.
Yet.
I am merely puzzled by the number of people who are obsessed – and I mean, OBSESSED – with what Israel is doing in the Gaza Strip (so-called ‘Palestine’) who apparently slept through what Azerbaijan did in breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh (aka the now-defunct ‘Republic of Artsakh’) last year, which was barely reported by the Western media, let alone protested about by the rent-a-mob groups hijacking city centres every Saturday. One might almost harbour dark thoughts that the protestors aren’t too concerned about vicious conflicts and human suffering when an Islamic country is the aggressor rather than the recipient…
Moreover, with Freedom House giving Israel a score of 74/100 and a rating of Free while scoring Gaza at just 8/100 with a rating of Not Free, it follows that anyone chanting for a ‘Free Palestine’ should logically be hoping Israel annexes the place.
(By contrast, Freedom House rates Azerbaijan even worse than Gaza, with a score of 7/100 and a rating of Not Free, while, before its dissolution, Nagorno-Karabakh was rated Partly Free with a score of 37/100 – not great by normal standards, but pretty impressive for an unrecognised breakaway territory that essentially existed in a stage of siege against an aggressive neighbour bent on snuffing it out. Now that Azerbaijan is in control there, Freedom House gives it a unique-in-the-world negative score of -3/100 (even North Korea manages 3/100) and notes that virtually the entire (mostly Christian) population fled the territory rather than live under the rule of (Muslim) Azerbaijan … the Islamophobes!
The betrayal of the Armenians, who lived in the area they have now had to flee from many centuries before there was any such thing as Islam, is both tragic and despicable – and that includes the betrayal of the Armenians by the government of Armenia – which is “pro Western” (i.e. pro Western intelligence agencies and social media companies) and therefore, as far as the international establishment are concerned, can do no wrong.
As for the United Kingdom – the Labour party is controlled by experts in “Human Rights Law” – in the Orwellian world we now live in “Human Rights Law” means unlimited power of officials and judges to utterly crush human freedom – note that the Covid lockdowns were fine under this “Human Rights Law” (indeed did-not-go-far-enough) – dissent will be crushed (as “Islamophobia”, “racism” or whatever) and with dissent criminalised and total control of the education system and the media that-will-be-that for this country.
Those people who think things can not possibly get any worse than they are now are mistaken, tragically mistaken – and there will be no return from what is coming.
Curiously, Israel is one of Azerbaijan’s major weapon suppliers.
Of course, Armenians are Christians, so come way below both Muslims and Jews in today’s oppression Olympics.
“feature” indeed.
Roué le Jour (naively and entirely missing my point…) said:
Have you ever looked into just where those jihadis came from? What their backgrounds were, who their families were, what sort of lives they led?
You should really do so, and then get back to us. One generation of apostate “shopkeeping Muslims” almost always begets a second generation of spoiled arsehole types that fail in life and then take up “sudden jihad syndrome” in order to expiate the things they feel guilty about, like screwing those Western whores that flaunt themselves before them.
Expiation of sin in Catholicism means going to confession and then doing a few Hail Mary routines, and maybe some good works. Expiation of sin in Islam means killing as many kaffirs as possible, while also doing the same to any apostate Muslims they run into on the way.
This mentality is baked into the religion. Read the Koran, and the Hadiths. Note all the things in there about slaughter, slaving, and theft of other people’s property. You can’t pick and choose what you like; all of it is what they believe, especially that bit about lying in the furtherance of their faith.
Today’s peaceful Muslim is almost always the parent to tomorrow’s vicious murdering jihadi Islamicist. How many “well-educated Western Muslims” have turned to terrorism, again? How often do you find things like advanced medical or engineering degrees among the ranks of the leadership? Usually, granted by some too-trusting Western institution?
The fable about the scorpion and the frog could have been written about the perils of welcoming Islam into your lands. It’s a viciously-conceived religion for bandits who lived on the edges of civilization, who got successful all of a sudden when the plagues of Justinian wiped out the neighboring civilized lands. They’ve never changed since the days when they were desert-dwelling barbarians, and will not ever change until the rest of the world nuts up and does to Mecca and Medina what the Chinese are doing in the Uyghur lands.
You want peace? Keep Islam at bay, and far from where you live. The “nice ones” you let in today will be the ones baying for your head and putting your daughters into chains within a few generations. That’s the way they’ve operated, historically. Ask the Persian Zoroastrians or the Yazidi. Or, for that matter, anyone else unfortunate enough to have a population of Muslims within their borders. What’s amazing is how many credulous fools can’t see the reality, with things like Thailand and Burmese Muslim populations being such divisive assholes that even the Buddhists can’t live with them. You hear all the time about the “persecuted Rohinga”, but you never, ever hear about why. Same with the Thai Muslims…
Also, you never hear about the Indonesian Muslims persecuting their Christians fellow Indonesians across the archipelago… That’s well-ignored, by all “good people”, because the narrative is that the Indonesian Muslims are the “good ones”. Which is utter bullshit, and a completely delusional fantasy. If you ever even bother reading the news from that region, it’s full of things like the odd beheaded and raped Christian girl, kidnapped on her way home from school…
Islam is what Islam is, and that’s a faith for barbaric murderers who only “live and let live” so long as they’re a minority population. When they outnumber you, there in Britain? The shoe will go quite on the other foot, and you’re going to find out what a joy it was to be Yazidi in Iraq.
I repeat and reiterate, your children and grandchildren will curse the names of this current generation for centuries to come. It cannot end any differently; this is the nature of Islam, a triumphalist faith that cannot countenance any competition.
Agreed. And many ‘peaceful’ Muslims will happily vote in shariah law given the chance, support imprisoning gays, believe white slags had it coming and would cheerfully see the Jews exterminated. Look at the opinion polls of British Muslims.
However this is also a consequence of most British Muslims originating in one goat villages in Pakistan, Bangladesh or Africa and their mosques being funded by ME fundamentalist groups. Islam in Indonesia is relatively more civilised, I suspect, mainly because the pre-Islamic culture was rather more peaceful and advanced than in most Muslim states. For example, apostasy isn’t a crime in Indonesia and neither is homosexuality.
However, Europe is not being colonised by Indonesian Muslims, so there is little to learn there.
Marius.
Those Muslims who come from strong village communities have loyalty to those communities – and draw some morality from those communities, and this is not just about Islam (there are local traditions and ways of life – some bad, but some good – as you yourself mention in the context of Indonesia).
It is Muslims brought up in the West who just have Islam – as Western civilisation (belief system) is in terrible decline (indeed is falling apart) it is not attractive as something to assimilate into. When asked “what is the Western belief system – what is Western civilisation?” we are likely to be shown weapons systems, or pornography, or sport, all this may be fun – but it is NOT a belief system, it is NOT a civilisation. It is not a set of beliefs that answer the fundamental questions that concern human beings about their (our) place in the universe. The West had a civilisation (a belief system) – but it has been in decline for a very long time.
As for mosques funded by “fundamentalist groups” – there are indeed several different schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence and the Shia differ in some respects (for example on some aspects of tax policy).
But on the basics (the “fundamentals” if you will) all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence are united.
And that will eventually impact even Indonesia.
Islam is a system of law – and a total way of life.
Muhammed, as well as being a military leader, was a political leader (one of genius) – who laid out a system of law which came (he passionately claimed) from GOD – and can not be changed by man.
The Western establishment refuse to understand this about Islam – and it is “refuse”, the Western establishment make a choice to not understand, and viciously attack anyone who dares point out the obvious.
Anyone who raises the matter of Islam in this election will be attacked – not by Muslims (they do not need to do anything) but by the non Muslim Western establishment.
The Protestant Reformation was able to dial back a bunch of excesses of the time by pointing out passages from scripture. Islam won’t ever have such a thing, because later written — more violent — passages in the Koran explicitly abrogate the nicer — earlier written — passages.
I, an Australian, do attest that Indonesia is a mild society of islamists. They do not threaten Australia, and their society does not threaten us. Occasionally, some indonesians talk about settling the northern territory, but nothing happens. So, mild islamists do exist. And most muslims in Australia seem moderatw.
Nicolas Gray – the Australian forces send migrants back. If they did not send migrants back a lot more than the Northern Territory would be settled.
As for Islam – it is what it is, the basics (the fundamentals) of the faith are not up for reinterpretation as, according Muhammed, these principles come from Allah. Although tactic considerations, such as relative numbers (do the followers of Muhammed find themselves vastly outnumbered), can lead to prudence.
Nathen – the Medina surahs (verses) pronounced when Muhammed was free of having a hostile population around him, do indeed abrogate certain perceived aspects of the earlier Mecca surahs (which Western leaders love to quote – out of context).