This is, well, epic: Every Epic Quest.
As you know, the lore demands that every Samizdata post has a political point hidden in it somewhere.
Your quest is to find it.
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A New Beginning Begins AnewFebruary 13th, 2024 |
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How come Frodo didn’t marry Arwen? He was the real Hero, with a shining sword, and everything!
Why not just get the eagles to fly Frodo straight to Mount Doom?
Would save a lot of questing.
Regarding “Special Little Magic Boy”, this rather tntertaining Epic Rap Battle between Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker does an amusing take on the similarities.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ver1OZdK2bA
One is made up of stereotypical heroes and villains behaving badly and the other is an X (formerly Twitter) post?
Funniest thing I’ve seen all day.
Release the Cockneys, are they the ones who sing Every Sperm is Sacred, or am I thinking of something else?
John:
Quoting The Two Towers, “For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds.” (emphasis added.) Later in the book, one of the steeds is described as a “vast winged shape…flying at a speed greater than any wind”.
Given this airborne capability of the Enemy, the eagles don’t have air superiority above Mordor, which they would need to reach Mount Doom. How is it that the internet collectively has perpetuated the idea of this “plot hole” in LotR for so long when the answer is right there?
Never mind that, I want to know what the elves (and certain baffling hobbits) are doing when they go “into the West.” Are they dying? Retiring to Sacramento? (‘Orc-free lifestyles for the very senior!’) Living on in some kind of pointy-eared purgatory? What? I appreciate a subtle Christian mysticism as much as the next guy, but this is just foggy.
Natalie, that video rocks. I’m reminded of the vicious, hilarious ’70s Tolkien satire “Bored of the Rings.” A sample: “‘This is indeed a queer river,’ said Bromosel, as the water lapped at his thighs.”
Furry toes!
If I remember rightly, after that beginning Bored of the Rings never mentions furry toes again.
It was riotously sexed-up all right, in that ’70s ‘Our Hobbit Bodies, Our Hobbit Selves’ kind of way. The authors (scoundrels from Harvard I believe) took a non-Peter Jackson* approach, and distilled the production down to one very slim and very dirty book.
*Unless we’re talking about the Peter Jackson of ‘Meet the Feebles’
Natalie and Earnest:
I for one, defend Tim Benzedrine’s lifestyle choices.
…and I’m still surprised no B studio hasn’t co-opted the rights and made a tawdry movie of “Bored of the Rings”, possibly using Malaysian animation companies.
I think that, after a certain number of comments, a hint is called for.
anon – correct, till the destruction of the winged creatures the Nazgul rode upon. for the eagles to venture anywhere near Mordor would have led to the deaths of the eagles and their riders.
Earnest Canuck – to the Undying Lands, till the end of the Second Age these lands were part of the normal physical world, at the end of the 2nd Age God (not the Vala – God Himself) took the Undying Lands out of this world.
Going to the Undying Lands does not make a mortal immortal (that was a lie that Sauron told the King of Numenor – to get him to launch a war), but the immortal (the Valar, most of the lesser spirits, and the Elves) live there – the remaining Elves would either go there or gradually diminish in spirit, as their time in this world was coming to an end.
As for mocking such things – mockery is rather parasitical, there need to be noble things for it to mock them. Although the humour is not vicious in this case.
“Real life” is sometimes weirder than fantasy.
For example, the United States Senate just passed a Bill that (amongst other things) funds BOTH sides it the war in Gaza – funding BOTH sides in a religious/ethnic war is odd even by modern standards. “it is humanitarian aid – it will not go to Hamas” anyone who says the supplies will not go to Hamas is a liar.
By the way, spending Bills are supposed to start in the House of Representatives but “details-details”.
This follows a proposed United States Senate “border security Bill”, backed by the leadership of BOTH parties in the Senate, that did nothing to secure the border with Mexico – and would have allowed thousands of invaders to continue to cross the border every day.
I think I will stick with “fantasy” works – they make far more sense than what “real life” governments do.
Paul Marks — thanks for the in-depth LOTR info! Believe I tried to tackle The Silmarillion once, but had to retreat, whimpering. The size of the Tolkien universe reflects, I sincerely think, the great depths of the man’s soul.
Re satire – yes, it needs a worthy target, and needn’t set out to destroy what it aims to mock.
I dimly recall a binary literary classification of satire/ parody — there’s being satiric about something one loves, and then the satire of what’s hated. Pretty sure the terms are ‘Horatian’ satire vs ‘Juvenalian’ but I can’t recall which is which!
‘Bored of the Rings’ I think is a work of devotion, not besmirching. Sure, it’s filthy as can be, but that’s perhaps just the straight-up mirror reflection of the high idealism that animates LOTR – its author and characters both. They’re curiously pure works of literature, which I think is what so many readers have responded to.
Tolkien allegedly answered the eagle question in his lifetime.
Short video
On the question of the point, my first guess was that it was about the “structure of production in inflationary conditions” but it occurs to me it could be “the law of unintended consequences” or even “the sunk cost fallacy”. But it’s definitely not “regulatory capture”. That would be ridiculous.
A pleasing turnout of Bored of the Rings fans which you will all recall had another much simpler solution for disposing of the ring.
As Eowyn managed to kill her “fell creature” fairly easily, before admittedly getting lucky against the witch king, I hypothetically still question why the large powerful and presumably similarly sized eagles would have been unable to prevail against them. Except of course that would have necessitated riders of sufficient physical and mental strength to combat the Nazgûl which rules out hobbits but also sufficient strength of character to resist using the ring which in Tolkien’s world rules out everyone apart from the unreliable Bombadil. I therefore respectfully suggest the question is not “why not the eagles” but rather “who could have ridden them”.
Finally on the subject of Bombadil I sincerely hope the internet rumours about Rings of Power reimagining Tolkien so that Bombadil and Goldberry turn out to be memory-wiped (middle)earth-bound incarnations of Morgoth and Ungoliant are untrue but with these clowns nothing is sacred.
P.s. I should also have pointed out that at the Battle of the Black Gate the eagles led by Gwaihir attacked the Nazgûl with no reference in the text to them being overmatched.
It has nothing to do with “air-superiority”. The eagles are maia of the King of the Valar, Manwë Súlimo. They are not a moth-summoned uber. The Valar engage very little in the affairs of Middle Earth and Eru Ilúvatar even less. There are of course exceptions such as “The War of Wrath” which ends the First Age (The Host of the Valar pitches up and defeats Morgoth) and the Drowning of Númenor which ends the Second Age (Eru destroys that island because the Númenoreans are about to invade Valinor) but that’s about it. Generally if Eru or the Valar get involved it is calamitous although arguably Eru interceeds to cause Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom.
In Universe the whole point of the “Lord of the Rings” is for the free peoples to defeat Sauron off their own bat. Yes, the Valar are involved but by this point in generally more subtle ways such as sending the five Istari but the quest has a moral dimension as well as just destroying Sauron’s Wonderweffe – and therefore Sauron himself… Lord of the Rings is a great book because of it’s subtle though overwhelming moral sensibility. It is very different from Tolkien’s friend, C S Lewis’s Narnia which just lays on sacharine Christianity on with a JCB.
Out of Universe. It would mean no book. Hobbits get to Imladris. Council of Elrond. Call the Eagles. Fly to Mordor. Drop off ring. The End. Not only would Tolkien never have written (see above paragraph) that but even if he had Unwin’s wouldn’t have published it because it’s not exactly much of an epic quest is it?
Which brings me back to my very first point… In principle the Eagles at that point could have flown totally unmolested to Mordor because the Nazgûl were temporarily out of the game due to being “drowned” by Elrond (with a little help from Gandalf) attempting to cross the Ford of Bruinen.
The reason why is the eagles wouldn’t fit on the door and it would have sunk with all of them on it.
John,
Not only was Éowyn a shieldmaiden of Rohan…
But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death. …[I fear] A cage, To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire. – LoTR, book 5, ch. 2 “The Passing of the Grey Company”
…and therefore a pretty badass chick and in a very bad mood…
But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him. – LoTR, book 5, ch. 6 “The Battle of the Pelennor Fields”
But she has also has two key tactical advantages. The Witch-King is in ultra-hubris mode and his steed is on the ground. Everything that habitually flies is more vulnerable when grounded.
Finally on the subject of Bombadil I sincerely hope the internet rumours about Rings of Power reimagining Tolkien so that Bombadil and Goldberry turn out to be memory-wiped (middle)earth-bound incarnations of Morgoth and Ungoliant are untrue but with these clowns nothing is sacred.
John, I hadn’t heard of that. Having said that, “The Rings of Power” memory-wiped itself from me. That was more Sh’ite than a mosque full of Ayatollahs. I doubt it… I suspect the follow-on will turn the ludicrous down from 11 because of the general outcry over the first series. But as you rightly observe, with clowns you never can tell. Amazon might decide to just go “in for a penny” and crank it up to 12 just for the sheer “goblin-mode” Hell of it! I mean they’ve lost everyone who has ever read the books anyway and probs a lot of those who came to JRRT via Jackson so why not! Why not get Disney onboard and incorporate Arda into the Marvel Comic Universe. Spiderman vs. Ungoliant in climactic death-match!!!
“… one very slim and very dirty book”
“I sit on the floor and pick my nose
And dream of dirty things…”
And through LoTR (which I read and re-read compulsively for far too long), I spotted a conundrum:
1) Tom Bombadil is the oldest of all living things
2) Treebeard is the oldest of all living things…
– the rest of the book was pretty good.
Earnest Canuck – I am happy to have been of help Sir.
And, yes, a bit of gentle mockery does no harm.
csb “shut up” is not a valid answer – all it shows that even an old Gentleman such as Tolkien could sometimes behave badly.
NickM – I doubt that the giant eagles of Middle Earth are spirits, but (yes) it can be argued either way. They do not appear to be spirits in “The Hobbit” or in “The Lord of the Rings” – at least not to me (but my impression may be mistaken). Or they could be descended from spirits – just as the giant spiders are animals but descended from Ungaliant (a spirit embodied in giant spider form).
As for “The Rings of Power” – agreed, it was an abomination.
And NOT an accidental one – for example it has characters saying the exact opposite of what good characters in Tolkien’s works would say – for example that the old ways are dead and we must live according to new ways.
No wonder Tom Shippey (the Tolkien scholar) was forced out – he did not fit the “Progressive” message that Amazon wished to push.
Disney is not alone – Amazon and all the other vast corporations push the same evil.
Y. Knott.
It is a definition issue – Treebeard is the oldest living thing that is still walking about in Middle Earth. The Ents existed before the Elves – although the Ents could not speak till they were “cured” by the Elves.
But Tom Bombadil (being a Maia) is older than the world itself.
So why is not Gandalf (and other Maia) considered as old as Tom?
Because Tom Bombadil took on a physical form when the world was created – and did not drop it or change it (as the other Maia did) and he stayed in much the same part of the world. The oldest elf in Middle Earth, the ship builder, is visibly old – long beard, and all the rest of it (all but his eyes – which were still bright), but Tom (vastly older than the ship builder) is the same as when he first appeared into the world. He had a vision, as a spirit, of what he should be in the song of God – and that is what he became, and stayed like it.
The ring has no power over Tom – because it can not offer him anything, he does not want to change or have anything other than what he has got. He is, and lives, exactly as he should be – although he would be an unsafe guardian for the ring as he would likely just throw it away.
Yes the Old Forest was vastly bigger in the past – but Tom was still there, before the Sun and Moon, indeed in the days of the Two Towers (which Melkor destroyed so long before he destroyed the Two Trees).
Whenever someone had gone into what eventually became the Old Forest Tom would have been there – just as Treebeard (an Ent – not a Maia) would have been – at the other end of the forested lands.
This does not mean that a person entering the forest would have met Tom – but he would have been there.
Nick,
I could make a case that each of the four Third Age interventions by the eagles in The Hobbit and LOTR was instigated by Eru as the first two instances it actively prevented the ring from falling into the wrong hands whether it was the orcs and wargs who forced the company up the burning trees or the orcs at the Battle of the Five Armies.
Even their rescuing Gandalf first from Orthanc* and then again after his battle with the Balrog could be construed as interventional actions without which the course of events leading to the ring being destroyed would not have happened.
Hey, everybody else has their own interpretations so why shouldn’t I?
* yes I know technically it was Radagast who instructed Gwaihir but as anyone who saw the Jackson trilogy knows that idiot could barely string a coherent sentence together.
Is creating new things evil in the view of Tolkien?
No it is not – not if they are good things.
For example, Gimli the dwarf does not just bemoan the loss of the secrets of metal working that Dwarves had once developed – he points out that the Lonely Mountain is BETTER than it was in the old days, that the Dwarves have developed building projects to make the place both better and more defendable.
And Gimli does not just say that the leading city of men could be better – he plans out the streets better in his mind and (later) does what he planned.
And he even improves the natural wonder – the “Glittering Caves” – not to plunder them, but to make it better for people to access them to see their wonder.
“Your hands will run with gold” Galadriel says of Gimli – “but over you gold will have no dominion”.
He will be commercially successful, very successful – but the money will not control him.