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Dear Guardian readers, everything you think you know about who supports Trump is wrong. Love, The Guardian. Even though most of its conclusions were known well before the US election took place, something tells me that the Graun would not have published anything even slightly resembling this most interesting piece by Musa al-Gharbi before November 3rd: “White men swung to Biden. Trump made gains with black and Latino voters. Why?”
While on that subject, allow me to shoehorn in two quick thoughts I have had about the current situation in America that I have not had time to expand into full posts.
Thought No.1: Hunter Biden’s laptop has not gone away.
Thought No.2: Joe Biden’s mental decline is not going to reverse itself.
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That’s certainly one way of looking at it, but another way of looking at it is that in 2016 the choice was Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. Now a lot of guys were no great lovers of The Donald, but there was no way in hell they wanted to be ruled by Hillary for the next 4 years, so they used the clothes-peg and voted Trump in 2016.
In 2020 there was no such “Anyone but x” vote, sure Joe Biden is a corrupt, senile, low-energy sexual degenerate and his running mate is an incompetent mixed-race Commie, but neither of them appear anything like as bad as Killary would have been. So those nominally Democrat supporters who voted for Trump in 2016 (but really voting “Anyone but Hillary” 2016) felt safe to vote for Joe Biden in 2020.
Sure, they might regret that decision when Kamala uses the 25th Amendment to oust his senile ass from the Whitehouse in 2022, but that’s a matter for then, not November 3rd 2020.
On the change of the female vote between 2016 and 2020, last time around there was a measure of “Women should vote a woman into the Whitehouse for the first time”. Sure, it was posed in different terms across the spectrum, with some women calling others gender traitors for even considering voting for Trump instead of Killary.
In 2020, we were back on gender neutral territory.
Isn’t Hunter Biden’s laptop next to Hillary’s email server and The Ark of the Covenant in the FBI’s lost evidence warehouse?
John Galt,
That sounds right to me.
One commentator (can’t remember where) said that “It’s not 2020 that is different, so much as it being a reversion to the mean, it was 2016 that was the outlier”.
I’m not sure if that is true, but it kinda feels true.
@Flubber
Isn’t Hunter Biden’s laptop next to Hillary’s email server and The Ark of the Covenant in the FBI’s lost evidence warehouse?
Up until the election it was. Now the situation is different. The purpose of Joe Biden was to prevent Sanders from getting the nomination. The purpose of this was to prevent Sanders replacing all the leadership at the DNC with leftie folks. (Not for the purpose of keeping the party moderate, but for the purpose of keeping their jobs. People at this level of politics care far more about power than about ideology.) I think this was done in the expectation they were going to lose the election — and then along came Covid. Kamala Harris was always the Democrat establishment’s preference. Those pesky voters during the primary got in the way. However, now, assuming the results stand, they just need to get rid of Biden, and I think Natalie has outlined two tools to very effectively do that. Worst case is that they will wait it out till 2024, but there is a good chance they can 25th amendment him, or use the laptop to force him out before that.
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one had, in my mind, Biden is effectively an asset of the CCP in the White house (or will be.) He and his family are so deeply compromised by the Chinese and there is undoubtedly so much blackmail material that Joe will have to dance a Chinese jig. And this will be the end of America. So getting rid of that is a really good thing. However, Harris is the most loathesome person you could turn the whole thing over. I mean I’d prefer Hillary Clinton to her. She is the ultimate “for sale” politician, though her natural political inclinations are ruinous. And so she too would be the end of America. It is very definition of between the devil and the deep blue sea.
So what to do? Hopefully keep recounting ballots.
Because by “end of America” I do not mean for four years, I mean forever. Some damage cannot be undone, and allowing the Chinese to take over global hegemony, while American drowns is more and more, faster and faster accelerating debt while at the same time becoming less and less production, whist pouring what little we have down a drain of self flagellation? There is no way back from that.
Hilary is essentially a big-business centrist. Kamala was the single most “progressive” Senator. So I’m sort of not in line with several comments here.
Sure @Bobby b – but at best, come January she will be Veep that job vacancy which is worth a “bucket of warm piss”. Sure, it might have more value than usual this time around because of Senile Joe in the Whitehouse, but it will still take a lot for Kamala to get her greasy fingers on the prize.
Old Ronald Reagan was clearly senile during his last term, but still made it to the end.
I’m concerned, but not yet worried.
Fraser Orr,
and then along came Covid.
I’ve said before how remarkably serendipitous it was that Covid came along at exactly the time, the beginning of Trump’s reelection year, when it would do the most harm to the Chinese enemy Trump and be most beneficial to their friends in the Democrat Party. I guess coincidences do happen though, huh?
My take is that Joe’s job is to sit in the oval office and look presidential, and as long as he does that, there’s no reason to get rid of him. Other people will do the executing.
Exactly. Which is pretty offensive to my mind. Having a “Puppet Ruler” might have a long heritage in Latin, Central and Southern America, but it’s a bit rich coming from the USA.
Maybe the Sleepy Joe nom de guerre will change to be Joe “Pu Yi” Biden after the inauguration? It’s gonna be like Woodrow Wilson all over again, presumably with Jill calling the shots. Where was that option on the ballot paper?
Sounds like Sleepy Joe is already well on his way to being incapacitated the same way Wilson was.
I was mostly disagreeing with the idea that anyone in the DNC favors or favored Harris. I think she’s anathema to them. They want and need a centrist – which Biden has always been (unless someone offered more money, I suppose.) If we do end up with Pres Biden, my greatest hope is that he bows out sometime in mid-term and Harris takes over, and then we run . . . anybody! . . . against her in 2024.
Kamala Harris lets the truth slip during the election campaign when she talks about “a Harris Administration together with Joe Biden”. She clearly understands that with Joe as POTUS she’s dealing with a mentally incompetent president that she can run rings around unless someone else can stop her (and I doubt Jill Biden is up to the task) and will simply wait out the 2 years and a day after the inauguration before 25th Amendmenting his ass out of the Whitehouse.
I’d not like Kamala Harris as “Her Fraudulency” going into the 2024 US Presidential race with her as the nominal incumbent. That would give far too much weight to a leftwing administration both before and after 2024.
Fortunately, Kamala Harris has been incompetent in every office she’s ever held, so I doubt that her residence at the Whitehouse would be any difference. The problem though is there are some wolves among the sheep of her coterie.
No, but the prime candidates for following up on it have. I think the DOJ’s priorities may lie elsewhere, even more so than the Deep State DOJ’s of the past four years.
(Watch as someone classifies most of the info contained on that hard drive, announces an investigation, and then . . . walks away from it. Once it’s classified (SEE H. Clinton’s harddrive capers) no one can talk about the current state of the investigation. It just fades away.)
bobby b
Harris takes over, and then we run . . . anybody! . . . against her in 2024.
Except that in that timeframe one or more of the following could have happened:
1. By executive order all current illegals are given citizenship — adding 20million new largely democrat voters.
2. Georgia runoff is just as corrupt and the senate flips (or it flips in 2022)
3. Consequently, bye bye filibuster, hello two new states
4. With massive numbers of new democrat voters (and this time they are actually alive) and two new heavily democratic states, the senate is a lock, and the electoral college is a lock.
5. The economy continues to get crushed, covid continues to be blamed, more government continues to be the solution. Free market ideas continue to be rejected.
“Anyone verses Kamala” in those circumstances, I’m not sure I agree with your rosy sentiment.
I hate to be a big party pooper, but I don’t see too much positive here, now or in the future. I wish I did, and I wish I were wrong, but I think I am thinking pretty clearly here. While we are spinning in self flagellation, and other self inflicted wounds there are other players on the field without our decadent scruples who will be happy to occupy the territory we concede. And they are not nice people. Much worse then even the loathsome Kamala Harris. She is in incompetent boob, they are very competent, and very malevolent. The idea of babbling idiots like Joe or Kamala being able to deal with a real player like Xi or Kim is simply laughable.
Please, I beg of you, tell me what I am missing.
If Trump concedes despite winning once fraud has been proven or if he otherwise loses but the fraud problem remains, the normally rule abiding republican chunk of the public have no reason at all to play along with their Democrat neighbours. Most of them probably still will, but even 7 million people is a big guerilla force…..
The only question I would ask is “Is this really the hill you want to die on?”. Maybe they’re right and it is, but I’m doubtful myself.
Personally, nope, but if the US goes down, the rest of us do to. If the perception of election fraud gives a lot of desperate people less reason to invest in the ballot box some will act out. Right wing terrorism is supposedly the greatest threat to civilization after all…
Democrats whether in the house or on the streets will do anything legal or illegal to gain power. Pausing an election when it appears to be going wrong in order to implement plans B,C&D while the establishment looks on is child’s play. Once they have power they use it ruthlessly and will not be respecting any judicial injunctions against their torrent of executive orders over the next few months
The Republicans are the opposite. They play by the Queensbury rules and are doomed to lose. Even when Rudi pulls off a half decent October surprise with the laptop the partisan media (which means all of it including Fox) either downplay or refuse to cover the story. The government if not the country will be blue until the Hispanic/Latino (which are we supposed to call them these days?) community decides otherwise.
The laptop will be in very safe hands and Biden is still smart enough not to go against those holding it and to do and say exactly what he’s told to.
Harris is only where she is thanks to servicing Willie Brown 30 years ago. She is a true woman of straw but in this case the colour of that straw was sufficient. Whoever sets the agenda it won’t be her or Joe.
I think y’all are overvaluing this. This isn’t 1917 Russia.
Biden has always – 47 years in politics – been a boring centrist. He went other ways to campaign, but he doesn’t need to campaign anymore. If the R’s take either one of the two Georgia Senate seats in January – they’re favored in both – then Biden will not be passing legislation, centrist or not. Or flooding in judges.
The powers behind Biden – the DNC and donor class – are centrist. The whacko hard core left had power commensurate with the number of votes they could deliver up until November 3rd, but now . . . not so much.
Biden’s power is likely going to consist of executive orders, and I seem to remember that the courts put some heavy-duty limitations on those while Trump was sending them out. Those limits remain.
Plus, aside from the hard-core left, no one is really clamoring for some of the worst of the threats that we fear from Biden E Orders. There’s no consensus or (certainly) mandate for increasing immigration or bestowing citizenship or banning guns (but we will see some new gun regs, and taxes.) His loud HC left will push hard immediately for those first three, but if everyone else is pushing back, well, Biden is going to remember that the campaign for the 2022 Senate and House seats started yesterday.
And I would imagine that even as we speak, someone is making a deal with Biden to the effect that we’ll bury and ignore and tiptoe around Hunter’s Folly and everything on it including the Joe B China stuff, if Joe will turn over a new leaf and deal with China from now forward in an appropriate manner.
I think it’s going to be boring and frustrating, with periodic outrages and disasters, but nowhere near as bad as y’all seem to be expecting. 2022 will come quickly, and we ought to be able to cement the Senate by then and make it even more boring. Boring is good. And then we’ll get to 2024, and if we can’t win then, we don’t deserve to.
Is it true that fewer white men voted for Trump? or anything else in the story? The only evidence is from pollsters who got it completely wrong in both this election and the last.
Patrick Crozier (November 15, 2020 at 9:16 am), plus one – or maybe plus three-quarters, since, as regards
I suggest that if the Guardian could think of any plausible reason for disbelieving “more blacks and latinos for Trump than last time” then they would have embraced it. However, as Natalie said, they could have run an article on those trends before the election. So you can ignore the pollsters evidence and yet not think everything in it is false. Indeed, you may speculate that the pollsters are understating the size of the “traitors to our identity groups” group.
Bobby,
You refer to heavy-duty limitations remaining. Were there any notable cases of such limitations being respected by President phone and a pen along with his “wingman” attorney general.
I’m 4,000 miles away but I don’t share your confidence and that’s before considering the likelihood of Romney, Sasse, Collins or Murkowski flaunting their cross-party credentials.
The only consensus that matters might be the one which will be efficiently marshalled by speaker Pelosi in accordance with the wishes of whoever is really calling the shots in the White House.
The left are often caught inside their own “bubble”.
For example, the Economist magazine (“New Liberal” rather than socialist like the Guardian – but the New Liberalism of Sir William Harcourt and so on is really socialism by the instalment plan – “social reform” meaning ever bigger and more controlling government) regularly talks of President Trump’s “race baiting” and “white identity politics” – but these things are fantasies that only exist in the minds of “Lexington” and leftists like him.
In reality the style of Donald John Trump, including his “vulgar” way of speaking, appeals to black and hispanic people more than any other Republican candidate for President in my life time.
Far from appealing more to black and brown people when-and-if President Trump goes the Republican Party is likely to go back to Country Club types such as “Mitt” Romney – who can NOT talk to (relate to) ordinary people of any race.
bobby b you are mistaken.
The powers behind Mr Biden are not “centrist” – unless by this you mean “totalitarian supporters of the International Community, who support ordinary people being made into serfs”.
Yes they really are that – as you will discover soon enough.
The future will, in the words of George Orwell, be a boot stamping down on the faces of human beings – for ever.
Or at least till the system collapses. And such a collapse will be horrible.
The destruction of the economy and the reduction of the population to a “Basic Income” paid for by monetary expansion (funny money) will not work – the Corporate Managers (the people who meet at such venues as the “World Economic Forum” with international government bureaucrats and “scientific experts”) think it will work – but they are mistaken.
They are the “donors” you mention – and some of them are billionaires.
They think you and your family (and all ordinary people) are just dirt on their shoe – and they will treat you, and all other people, accordingly.
If they come to power 2021 will be terrible and things will get WORSE after that.
The target date is 2030 – full totalitarianism is supposed to be “achieved” with the population of the various nations enslaved.
They do not even bother to hide it – Agenda 2030 has been public for some time now. And it is supported by government bureaucrats, academic “experts”, AND Big Business (the Corporations). No one walked out of Davos or the Legion of other meetings saying “this is evil – I will not go along with this tyranny”, they are all fine with it.
If you think this Agenda “centrist” I advise you to read it (or watch it) – as for Mr Biden, he will do what he is TOLD to do. He is not a free agent – he is a paid servant.
Terms to look out for.
“Sustainable Development” = “Green” totalitarianism.
And.
“Stakeholder Capitalism” – this used to be called FASCISM back in the days of Mussolini. Big Business and Big Government coming together to crush free competition (especially from small business) and the freedom of ordinary people generally.
It has a lot in common with the Collectivist ideas of Saint-Simon two hundred years ago – socialism, but with Big Business types NOT shot, but actually IN CHARGE (with Credit Bubble bankers at the very top) – and all in the name of “science” – science, science, science.
When someone says “listen to the science” they mean – “I want to crush your face with my boot”.
All the above is what Puppet Biden and his “Centrists” are about – especially his Big Business (Corporate) backers – with their love of the Chinese “Social Credit” system, controlling every aspect of opinion and behaviour.
My take is that Joe’s job is to sit in the oval office and look presidential, and as long as he does that, there’s no reason to get rid of him. Other people will do the executing.
Nobody has mentioned Jill Biden. I understand that she is a very powerful woman and to be the First Lady is her dream desire. It may be that Sleepy Joe is run by a woman – Jill not Kamala.
The claim that white working men abandoned Trump is unlikely. While the brand name pollsters claimed this, the outliers, who actually had a track record of accuracy over the last several cycles, dispute this. At best, this is an unknown. See, Richard Baris, of People’s Pundit Daily, a donor funded pollster. He could not verify any of the claims made by Nate Cohen, the NYT, et al. Baris says that white working men are notoriously difficult to reach and convincing them to participate is a hard slog. Full disclosure, he concentrated on AZ, MI, WI, PA, and FL.
Maybe not, but it is an existential threat to Middle America, the values that make America, America. If you are an American Working person, your attachment to those Industrial Revolution values of hard work, thrift, accountability, diligence, in tandem with your belief in math, grammar, and the scientific method, based on reproducibility and controlling variables you are regarded as quaint. If you embrace the Bill of Rights, the rule of law, limited government, fundamental fairness, you are disdained. More importantly this, coupled with your attachment to a national identity (borders), is an serious obstacle that stands in the way of the skimming class imposition of a top down supranational-government agencies and courts. “Der Regulierungsstaat Uber Alles”. The end game is to replace legislation with regulation by ideological “experts”, whose chief credentials are towing the line. Nepotism is a key component. The Biden crime family may have accepted foreign “pay to play” but that is just the tip of the iceberg, many of the Minions are on the take, in one way or another, by way of the revolving door between government agencies, media, private and public businesses, foundations, charities, lobbying, law and public relations firms, NGOs, universities……………including the Pentagon. I’m not even counting all the cost shifting scams.
@Paul,
Well, stakeholder capitalism seems to be working well in Singapore. I’ve long held our system to be fascist, but in terms of outcomes, we ain’t half bad.
But we’re a small city state, so maybe the feat isn’t scalable.
This is what Trump is up against, hell, what we are all up against. “Yes, Minister” on steroids.
The fact that the bureaucrats are openly acknowledging that they intentionally lied to Trump and conspired to conceal the truth from him tells me two things. 1) They believe it’s over for Trump and that they have succeeded in checkmating him. 2) Trump was right to be paranoid and rely on his family. He was surrounded by people that were deceiving him, sabotaging him, undermining his policies, and leaking damaging or false information about him. I’m wondering if these are the same weasels and liars that gave us Bush’s wars. Yes, I’m suggesting that they would do this to any Republican president, but Trump, being the bull in the china shop was especially targeted. I don’t know what drives these people or who they really work for. I suppose some are sold on their own convenient self importance or are just sneaky opportunists; others seem to have a creepy, pathological hero complex. I think the comment below and Edward T Hall, who decades ago analyzed the nature of “the bureaucracy”, way underestimated their malignance.
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/11/outgoing-syria-envoy-admits-hiding-us-troop-numbers-praises-trumps-mideast-record/170012/
The following is a copied comment from the website, MaggiesFarmanotherdotcom:
Yes Minister: Sir Humphrey is right. It is not his job to decide on the issues – that is why we have elections. Having worked for the federal government for decades, I can tell you that most bureaucrats have for a long time believed themselves to be in possession of knowledge and professional expertise greatly in excess of that possessed by their alleged masters who have suffered the electoral process, much less the idiot voters who ignorantly placed them there. There is no feedback – there is no payback for slagging the policy of a new administration – they will be gone in a few years and you will still be there. Having been instructed in the best universities that their expertise is never failing, they continue to do what they think is best. If they fail, oh well.
#6 fiona
Bobby, take a look here. The whole thing is pretty good; the last two paragraphs are the real eye-opener. Keep in mind, that was when Biden was still relatively clear-headed.
Uhm, I got nothing hopeful. I think it will be over for Middle America and Main street. I don’t think they can hold on if the following is implemented.
I hear the sucking sound of Middle American jobs going to the third world. The Dems have pledged to eliminate coal and fracking, which not only reduces energy independence but also reduces manufacturing competitiveness and will drive hefty increases in energy costs for distribution, commuting and home heating. This, of course, ripples through the economy. A secondary concern, note that energy independence reduces the need to engage in foreign conflicts. The gutting of border controls doesn’t just increase competition for lower wage jobs, it enables the Chinese/Mexican cartel distribution of fentanyl and enables human traffickers. I don’t believe they will defy Xi to bring pharmaceuticals and PPE or other security critical manufacturing back to the USA, continuing the dependence on an unsympathetic adversary. I anticipate a push for continuing reparations and a knock down, drag out battle to bailout the blue state corrupt pension funds. I expect the reinstatement of kangaroo courts in higher education, I expect them to attempt to increase the power of the Regulatory state at the expense of rule of law and the Bill of Rights and to promote the power of supra national agencies and courts.. Coincidentally, this is more in sync with the CCP. I really expect them to f’up most anything they touch, think education and healthcare, which is never to the advantage of Middle Working People. They will continue to inflict PC drivel and “cry wolf” over the mundane. I anticipate higher taxes if they take the Senate. Remember, Dems were willing to demolish the economy and inflict untolled damage on working people, while many of their peeps were insulated against the worst of it. I’m sure there’s more, this is off the cuff. Yes, I suppose this is worst case, but remember you’re not dealing with practical down to earth folks, but people who fancy themselves as the “intellectual elite”, who see so much through an ideological lens, and are strangers to the very concept of unintended consequences.
There is one odd (if it is verified) feature of this and similar reports. We are told that blacks supported Trump more any Republican for decades. However it is also being said that certain black areas had seriously higher turnout for majority Biden as president in 2020 than they did for majority Biden as vice-president under Obama in 2008.
Do we assume Obama, even with Biden as his vice, was just not as interesting to 2008 blacks as the media made out? 🙂 Do we assume that realising some of their black neighbours would vote for Trump aroused others from a politically-inactive slumber so deep that Obama had not dented it? 🙂 Do we assume that, voter fraud having been made much easier and safer this year, those who did voter fraud before now did so much more of it that it presented as exceptional turn-out figures in their areas – and the trend included similarly-situated black areas? (By all means put smiley here if you think it appropriate.)
There’s more data to crunch on this – at least for me. (By all means save me some effort by giving any relevant data you’ve come across. 🙂 )
Egads, I forgot. The Dems hate, hate, hate, Brexit. Not given to minding their own business, there have been murmurings of using trade to force the UK back to the EU. None may escape “Der Regulierunsstaat Uber Alles”, all will comply.
Natalie Solent wrote:
“Thought No.1: Hunter Biden’s laptop has not gone away.”
I’m sorry, but you are completely mistaken. Hunter Biden’s laptop has already undergone a Minitrue process and become an un-laptop. It’s like it never even existed. Regardless of the outcome of the election. It no longer serves any useful purpose for the Republicans, and the Democrats have denied its import since the day it appeared. If Biden should eventually lose, what purpose is served by using it to harass a semi-senile geriatric who offers no real threat to anybody? To stop him running again? Father Time will take care of that. And, if Biden loses, the whole edifice of Biden family corruption will collapse (see Clinton Foundation) and all the various Bidens will end up (in the words of Christopher Hitchens) ‘shouting on a street corner while selling pencils from a cup’.
Note that this has nothing to do with whether its contents are true – FWIW, I think they likely are, to a great extent. But this is now no longer a matter of true or false, but a matter of politics.
llater,
llamas
The Wobbly Guy – I explained what “Stakeholder Capitalism” (the modern name for Fascism) is, and you have ignored the definition and claimed it operates in Singapore (which it does not). You then say it “works well” in Singapore
As “Stakeholder Capitalism” (i.e. the elimination of competition between companies and the crushing of the freedom of choice of ordinary customers) does not operate in Singapore it can not operate “well” (or badly) there.
Ask yourself a simple question – is the totalitarian Klaus Schwab a good person? Clue the answer is NO as he is a totalitarian. What has been pushing since at least 1971? Yes that is correct “Stakeholder Capitalism” – his preferred form of totalitarianism (although it was really invented by Saint-Simon some two centuries ago).
As for the “centrist” Mr Biden.
His ratings by the American Conservative Union for 2007 and 2008 (the last years he served in the Senate) were 0% and 0%.
The Taxpayers Union gave him ratings of 2% and 4%.
Whatever Joseph “Joe” Biden is – “centrist” he is NOT.
Getting back to white working men. In a way, you can understand the vote for Biden by those who rely on the government teat directly or indirectly and those who make their living off global trade, distribution, finance and entertainment. You have to give the Dems, and all their minions, credit for pulling off an amazing election manipulation of legions of naïve, infantilized, and feminized voters to make their decision based on priggish personal dislike of Trump’s persona and style over policy and substance. They harped and carped about Trump being sleazy and corrupt, despite Trump and his family undergoing near constant intense scrutiny. They even made it up, if necessary. In the meantime, they fielded a candidate who actually was creepy and corrupt. I don’t think many working men would fall for this. Even at that, I don’t think they could have pulled it off without covid and election fraud.
For American readers – remember the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, with its National Recovery Administration (the Blue Eagle thugs) – struck down by the Supreme Court (nine votes to zero) in 1935.
That was close to “Stakeholder Capitalism” – and if the Wobbly Guy holds that is what operates in Singapore (no real competition or customer choice) then I stand corrected.
As for former Senator Joseph Biden.
I repeat – American Conservative Union record ZERO (both for 2008 and 2007).
Taxpayers Union rating – four per cent and two per cent.
Even if “Joe” Biden was a free agent (he is not – he is a paid servant), he would still destroy freedom.
Because destroying freedom is what he likes doing.
The person is for sale (he is corrupt) – but that does not mean he does not have beliefs.
Mr Biden does have beliefs – EVIL beliefs.
“Centrist” – NO. Although he can fake niceness well.
I am not sneering at the man – faking being nice is a real skill, one I lack.
Stake Holder Capitalism et al, by any other name. It seems to me that up until 2008, even most Dems had a grudging forbearance of Capitalism. They seemed to realize that IT IS the engine of innovation and progress. What do they think will replace it?
Referring to the previous post. Even if capitalism isn’t the only driver of innovation and progress, I would argue that it is the fastest and most efficient.
Faking niceness is important in print as well.
For example, when I read an Economist magazine article I read it rather differently from most readers.
Gentle words about expanding a “safety net” for people are really “we are going to destroy the jobs of people, with our Green agenda (and so on) and make them a welfare underclass – which will grow over the generations, as the culture is undermined”.
I read what is actually meant – I do that with most things, it is actually very unpleasant.
It also applies when I see and hear someone talk – I see and hear what they actually mean, but I have taught myself to understand what other people are seeing and hearing.
Do not envy me – as I have said above, it is very unpleasant.
When one of these people speaks – you really do NOT want to see and hear, what I see and hear.
It is almost unbearable for me – it is agony. Physical and mental anguish – made worse by people around me smiling and nodding and saying “what a nice person so-and-so is”. This has been true since childhood – many decades ago.
Still over the decades I have learned to accept that other people do not see what, to me, is horribly obvious.
Exasperated.
There are a couple of questions.
For the businessman – “can I charge very different prices and offer a fundamentally different range of goods and way of doing business?”
And for the customer – “if I go somewhere else – will it be really different?”
Under “Stakeholder Capitalism” the answers to these questions are NO and NO.
Under such a system there will fist be stagnation – and then decline.
Except that, in fact, the reverse is the case.
Except in 4 cities. Guess which cities before clicking on the link.
Niall: this is related to your reply to me this afternoon. I invite you to have a look at my counter-reply.
To be fair to the Grauniad, they could not know the exit polls before the actual election.
“but neither of them appear anything like as bad as Killary would have been”
It’s not that Hillary was really that bad, what she was was INSUPORTABE.
It’s more an emotional term that an intellectual one, but the world runs by emotions.
Snorri – and in all four of those corrupt cities the vote was RIGGED, massively rigged.
Historically the M. city is the interesting one – as it was subsidised even BEFORE THE FIRST WORLD WAR.
The once famous socialist Mayors of M. were possible because the State Legislature of W. (the first State to have a modern version State Income Tax) used some of the State Income Tax to subsidise the city much of its spending was actually financed by taxpayers living in other parts of the State.
“Happy Days” – if you are a parasite city.
Whoever can manage the feat of hanging on to Capitalism can win.
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=391288
In 2016 Trump won Pennsylvania by 48k votes out of 5.9 million cast – 0.8%. So it was just luck. The Dems didn’t think he could win so they were caught asleep. In 2020 Trump lost by 68k votes of 6.9 million – about 1%.
This time the Dems didn’t rely on luck. They mobilized all the cadres for an all-out effort. They probably brought in workers from NY, CA or OR. Their rich tycoons (Soros) mobilized too. They did a good job, using all available opportunities (mail ballots).
Trump, though a famous businessman, is not known for his managerial skills. He comes from the sales (bluster) branch of business. His 4 years presidency showed anything but managerial skill or efficiency. His governing style was chaotic. His campaign wasn’t as organized as the Dems’, much rallies and rabble rousing, not so much street work and vote mobilizing. Joe Biden hid in the basement because he knew people were working for him.
So, here we are – sleepy and incoherent Joe is President.
In such a tight race, policy and rhetoric and rallies and chants and slogans are not enough – organization and election experience and hard street work is required too. These last were Trump’s weak points.
What will the future be? I’m no prophet. The US survived somehow 8 Obama years (and much worse Presidents too ). Let’s hope Biden won’t be worse than Obama. That is just a hope, it could be worse. After the madness of 2020 all bets are off.
I do not think that having a Puppet Ruler is new in the USA at all. Compared to past American Presidents, Biden’s mental acuity is obviously deteriorated, his energy is clearly low, his mental faculties are in poor shape, and he probably is senile and/or suffers dementia. But American Presidents I think were effectively Puppet Rulers (basically as much as Biden will probably be) – they just do not APPEAR to be Puppet Rulers.
Yeah. That ain’t gonna happen no matter what the US might think. EU membership was death by a thousand cuts and BRExit has become a never-ending nightmare. No British politician is going to seriously propose going through the whole accession process with the EU again. The only party that used it as their platform (the Liberal Democrats) gained no traction in the December 2019 Election and their leader lost her seat.
Not one of the major parties would win an election with “Return to the EU” as a manifesto commitment or part of their platform.
For the last 50 years no major party in Europe made “Lets bring in millions of Third World Migrants, give them access to Welfare Benefits they never contributed to and make no requiremennts they integrate” as a manifesto commitment or part of their platform and yet it happened. I doubt in the next elections in the UK, that Labour will campaign on some “lets remain after all” platform. Yet that doesn’t mean they might not find some way to stay or de-facto stay anyway after the election. And win they might, given how the Tory’s seem to stumble from one blunder into another.
Yep, that article pretty well summed up the Biden I remember – from back in 2001, when TNR put that article out. Think back – the things that moved Biden were centrist things – that quip about sending the $200M to Iran was really a centrist’s position back then.
Biden’s always been less principled than he was just . . . available. He’s centrist like Hillary is centrist – no real principles, corporatist because that’s who would shuffle the most money his way, looking to see what’s popular before taking a position. A triangulator. Triangulators are people specifically seeking the center, usually for its safety. I think that’s Biden.
Agreed that Trump always be selling. (meant to be colloquial). Your assumptions about his managerial skill is iffy. We don’t know that. In a business setting, he would surround himself with the best talent he could hire, who would have a fudiciary responsibility to him. It does appear that the Deep State staff, lied to him, back stabbed him, undermined and sabotaged him, leaked confidential information and slow walked his policies.
@Paul,
Sorry, you are absolutely wrong. What we have in Sg is indeed stakeholder capitalism aka fascism. You can see the word stakeholder appearing time and again in the mission statements of our ministries and statutory boards.
But actually, the best evidence of the private-public partnership is our ‘unique’ arrangements. Example 1: the Tripartite Alliance which sets wages instead of letting the free market do it. Example 2: Temasek Holdings. Example 3: some time ago I attended a briefing by the Land Transport Authority – they outright said they would ‘manage’ the competition between our transport companies.
That attitude has not changed. There is some competition between companies, yes, but within fixed boundaries dictated by the state. Housing and healthcare are yet more examples. Mandatory healthcare and retirement savings – is that freedom? Public housing for majority of residents, with the state free to re-acquire the leases at virtually any time? It’s for the sake of the state, which works for the communal well-being (or so it claims).
I can go on, but the point remains – we are fascist, and it works! Denying it does nobody any good. It’s much more important to understand why, or else your arguments will never beat the fascists in persuading and convincing the masses.
“Stakeholder Capitalism”
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socializzazione_dell%27economia
Wobbly Guy:
Not that i necessarily disagree with you, but i’d like to know why your assessment of economic freedom in Singapore differs from that of the Economic Freedom of the World index.
And just to be clear, that is not a trick question: it is a straight question. And i am aware that it is not easy to answer.
The options for “Stay”,”Remain” or “Ignore the Referendum” have all been attempted and all failed miserably. We are out and the only way that the UK could be readmitted is by ignoring the matter of sovereignty, ignoring the vast majority of the ascension process (including things like signing up to the Euro and all that other bollocks) and most of all ignoring the vast majority of the voting public.
The question that the 2016 Referendum asked was balanced upon a knife edge and the result likewise, but a referendum to rejoin the EU (which would be required given the already acknowledged issue of the transfer of sovereignty) would be a whole other matter. Referendums usually end up remaining with the status quo unless there is a significant momentum for change (as there was in 2016).
The status quo right now is that we are out of the European Union. Who would want to revert that and rejoin a political project that is going in a direction we have said for decades “We don’t want to go” on even worse terms than we had when we left.
Nope. We’re out and there is no way back. Anyone who thinks there is (like FORMER Lib Dem Leader and FORMER MP Jo Swinson) will be rejected at the ballot box and ousted from his/her seat.
The last 6 months have seen US rulers impoverishing their own citizens, cities and country by a deliberate over-reaction to Covid all for the purpose of defeating their arch nemesis. They have succeeded at a terrible cost.
The EU is no less scrupulous and the inevitable damage to their member states economies resulting from failure to negotiate in good faith with the UK will be seen as an acceptable price to pay in order to punish their foe.
Finally Biden, not a man known for subtlety, has dropped the broadest of hints that he intends to pressurise the UK using the “hard border” excuse with his emotive and deliberately quotable Good Friday Agreement reference.
Caught between two hostile super-powers (and his staunchly remained paramour) whose leaders frankly despise us and with the economy so successfully trashed what else is a man of straw going to do other that find some pathetic excuse for BRINO? After all his brexiteer credentials were only ever motivated by political opportunism and not by any genuine conviction.
One last point. A great many comments have analysed the reasons for Trumps defeat in considerable detail. Why not just admit that in the end it was down to successful cheating by the Democrat machines in 4 cities resulting in the loss of MI, PA, WI and GA with their 62 electoral college votes.
How is he going to do that exactly? Since by the time he is inaugurated, it will be all over? The British have absolutely no intention of putting any border infrastructure in place on the Irish border. Sure, the EU might pressure the Republic of Ireland to do that, but that would be an EU/RoI matter, not a UK one.
He can piss-and-moan about “muh Good Friday Agreement” all he likes, but he has zero practical effect.
John Galt,
You are absolutely right, there is no chance whatsoever of the UK rejoining the EU. However, the best minds in Westminster and Brussels are working together to come up with a deal that leaves the UK subservient to some EU court, losing full control of her territory and owing the EU money. This will no doubt be sold a “temporary” arrangement. I will be astounded if the UK escapes free and clear at the end of the year.
Perhaps @Roué, if the EU had a free hand and could essentially bribe us with our own sovereignty, but the EU premise has always been that the UK cannot have better (or even the same terms) as other members of the EU/EEA without accepting the whole kit-and-kaboodle.
Sure, there is a deal to be done on trade, but the EU, for reasons of it’s own malign reciprocity, cannot make it. Thus we’ll continue to be offered the same glitter coated turd which no politician in his (or her) right mind can accept and survive (remembering that any deal still has to go through a hostile HoC and HoL).
I’m not saying “It can’t happen”, but a stone-cold “No Deal” is more likely and does the one thing that BoJo actually needs at the moment, it makes him look like he’s in charge, not his squeeze Princess Nut Nuts, not his officials, but him. Assuming he wants to stay in Number 10 and get that vaunted “Legacy” that these idiots are always carping on about…
The Woobly Guy – if you insist that there is no competition (or only very limited competition) in Singapore, I am not going to argue with you (you live there – and I do not). Perhaps it keeps out all foreign goods, practices Protectionism on a total scale and allows no competition between domestic manufacturers either, the spirit of Raffles being dead.
However, both the following can not be correct at the same time – there is state domination (on the Corporate State model) in Singapore (no free trade at all – foreign or domestic), and Singapore is an economic success. Both of these propositions can not be true at the same time – as Ludwig Von Mises showed on LOGICAL (not empirical) grounds.
So pick one of the two propositions – you can not (on logical, not empirical, grounds) have both of the two propositions at the same time.
Of course I reject racial logic – the idea that different races have different forms of reasoning. Just as I reject the idea that different “classes” or “historical periods” have different laws of reasoning.
Nothing that Louis XVI did was particularly terrible from an economic point of view – but this was not true of his ancestors.
Henry IV (on “expert” advice) made guilds compulsory in every town in France – undermining free competition and the development of new ways of doing things.
And Louis XIV (the Sun King – and ancestor of Louis XVI) on the advice of such “experts” as Colbert, established detailed state regulation in France – so even if a guild wanted to allow freedom they would not (by law) be allowed to do so.
The above prevented France having an Industrial Revolution – and gave the expanding population of France no opportunities of industrial employment. So they became the desperate Paris mob – which was USED by the Revolutionaries in 1789 and after.
The Wobbly Guy – are you certain that Singapore is like France before 1789, or like Prussia and other state dominated countries of that time?
If you say “yes” I will not argue with you – but I would advice you to take your gold out of Singapore.
Before someone jumps in – I know that FARMING was most of the French economy before 1789, and FARMING was much less state regulated than manufacturing and trade under the “Ancient Regime”.
bobbly b – I gave you the ratings of former Senator Biden.
Someone who gets in his years in the Senate a ZERO rating (out of a 100) from the American Conservative Union, and a 2% (again out of 100) rating from the Taxpayers Union, can not be correctly described as a centrist.
Centrist would be 50% – not 2% or ZERO.
As for Mr Biden being for sale – YES HE IS, I AGREE WITH YOU.
And he has been bought by international totalitarians who want to make you and your family serfs.
This is Agenda 2030 – this is the plan.
If you choose to stay alive – this is what you will experience.
“Sustainable Development”, “Stakeholder Capitalism”, “Build Back Better” – i.e. a boot stamping down on your face, and the faces of your children. For ever.
I have not addressed Natalie’s specific points – and for that I APOLGISE.
Thought No 1.
Yes the Bidens (Hunter and JOSEPH) are guilty of massive bribe taking – especially from the People’s Republic of China, the sworn enemy of the United States and the West in general.
And YES – Hunter Biden is guilty of various other crimes, including sexual ones.
However, none of this matters as the American “mainstream media” is hopelessly evil, as is the “Justice” system and the FBI – which has been COVERING UP the crimes of the Bidens (and others) for years.
I found Tucker Carlson horribly amusing a few days ago. He was talking like a tour guide – explaining that America was a good country, because the SCENERY was nice and (oh yes) Americans tip waiters well.
The fact that the innocent (such as General Flynn) are ruthlessly persecuted, and despicable criminals (such as Joseph Biden) are going to rule (indeed really continued to be in power even when Donald John Trump was President) – let us ignore all that, look at the pretty trees and the pretty lake….
Thought No 2.
Joseph Biden could drop dead tomorrow – and it would make no difference at all.
At some point in 2021 he will be replaced by K. Harris.
Perhaps K. Harris is a “centrist” as well.
After all one can not go below ZERO – so I doubt that the voting record of K. Harris was really much worse than that of J. Biden.
He picked someone who hates the ideas of LIMITS ON GOVERNMENT POWER as much as he does.
The only difference is that K. Harris does not even bother to hide how much she hates the very idea of LIMITS ON GOVERNMENT POWER.
Why should she hide it?
The young have been taught to worship-the-state.
I was saddened to be told by my US friends that the previously rock-solid Tucker appeared to have at least sniffed the Kool-aid. It seems that the threat of losing his gig on Fox might have been the inspiration for this bizarrely timed travelogue.
I thought Tucker’s Travelogue spoke volumes myself. I’m not surprised they silenced him though. He was destabilising the demoralisation narrative.
The following is from the Small Dead Animals blog. Make of it what you will. Gateway Pundit is a yellow flag for me. Personally I do believe that there was more election fraud and that it was better organized and financed than we’ve ever seen before. If the following is true, I hope it is exposed far and wide. One lingering question though, why didn’t they just coopt Trump? To ask the question is to answer it. That’s why they had to make stuff up.
More on Sydney Powell, not saying she will win the day. This is better sourced from the Althouse blog.
FWIW:
Thought No. 3 – Fraud is one of the few crimes that does not have a Statute of Limitations.
Two quotes:
If you have not read Matt Taibbi’s rigorous take down of SJW rubbish, take the time. The critique of her writing style is to die for.
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility
One interesting detail from the article relates to “Holy land goods” started by a Palestinian immigrant in Minnesota who had their premises lease revoked due to anti-Somali and anti-Semitic tweets made by the founders daughter 8 years ago. Their response included deleting all tweets from the business Twitter account and leaving just one supporting blm. It reminded me of the futile deflection tactic by Harvey Weinstein who, the moment the accusations crystallised, gave a press conference vowing to devote his energies to opposing the NRA. Also Kevin Spacey whose conveniently timed self-outing was greeted with considerable derision from all quarters. I guess the effectiveness of Look a Sqiirrel! depends on who is saying it.
@Snorri,
Short answer: the economic index is flawed by weighing certain metrics and not others. I found an article that describes some, but not all, of these flaws. It’s from 2005, so I’m not sure how much the metrics have changed, but the points about Sg still stand.
https://mises.org/library/failings-economic-freedom-index
In addition, most of us male citizens are conscripted to serve two years for way-below-minimum wages, essentially slavery to the state. How is that assessed in terms of economic freedom?
@Paul,
I think we have different understandings of what fascism is. For me, it differs from straight up communism by having a significant private sector, but one that is both in cahoots with, and in service of the state. There is competition and a free market of sorts, but only allowed by the state when it deems favorable, and no competition or managed competition with certain boundaries when the state decides otherwise. Free trade exists – when the state allows it to. The difference between fascism and communism is that the private sector doesn’t even exist in communism (by right), but in fascism, the private sector serves the state at its sufferance.
As another example, in fascist states you would expect the bureaucracy and politicians to be extensively involved on both sides – we fit that perfectly. There is a famous example of a Sg politician holding 64 directorships.
http://singaporeelection.blogspot.com/2011/07/ang-mo-kio-pap-mp-yeo-guat-kwang-holds.html
While von Mises is a smart guy, he wouldn’t have thought of everything, so I wouldn’t take his word as gospel either. What would he have made of Singapore?
We are certainly run by a bunch of very smart fellows, very data driven. It’s no mistake we are often considered to seem more a corporation with its own security services and territory than a nation-state. Within the corporation, freedom isn’t exactly a pre-requisite for prosperity.
It essentially boils down to the tolerance levels of a society. Just take COVID-19 – we locked down for more than a month. We’re slowly easing up, but face masks are really a thing. Locals read about the resistance to face masks and lockdowns in the US and go, ‘Those crazy Amercians! Why can’t they just obey instructions?’ regardless of whether face masks and lockdowns have actually proven to work.
As for gold, I have none. I just pumped virtually all my savings (175,000 SGD for the downpayment) and a mortgage of 15 years (2K monthly) into the purchase of the 99 year lease of my long awaited public housing unit (103 square meters) for my family. My wallet weeps.
But ahh, this is still home. When I look at the US, or Europe, I see only disaster. Fascist wannabes with a bare fraction of Sg’s (or China’s) competency.
China is not communist – it’s fascist. The Zhong Gong dynasty will not fall (lose the mandate of Heaven) unless they forget that one important dictum of maintaining a dynasty – ‘Yong3 Bu4 Jia1 Fu4’ – never raise taxes. Tax issues were often a key factor in the decline of dynasties, something I think the brain trust of the CCP would not allow themselves to forget.
‘Please, I beg of you, tell me what I am missing.’
You missed red wave.
The Republicans won the election easily. They gained many House seats, a governorship, multiple state legislatures and numerous local level posts while holding the senate. Plus they have a majority on the supreme court.
‘Please, I beg of you, tell me what I am missing.’
Plus the dozens of libertarian amendments which were passed all across the country in red and blue states alike.
@SteveD,
Do you think these will be ample checks on a Dem presidency, aided and abetted by the Deep State?
Also, if they can steal the presidency, what’s to prevent them from stealing everything else for the 2022 midterms? Their goodness of heart?
Thank you, Wobbly Guy.
Perhaps this is the key. A corporatist city-state relying heavily on trade is more like a corporation than like a corporatist nation-state with less reliance on trade.
At the same time, W.G., you might perhaps change your mind about how ‘fascist’ Singapore is, if you stayed a couple of years in Europe or even the USA. Not that i complain about the situation here, but i am worried about the long-term prospects.
Which brings me to:
Ibn Khaldun was perhaps the first to observe that tax rates inevitably rise, and eventually cripple the economy and lead to the downfall of the ruling dynasty.
(But it seems that some countries defy the odds.
I understand that Denmark, for instance,
plans to privatize state pensions.)
WRT China in particular, Samuel Finer wrote that most dynasties fell because:
rising taxes led farmers to turn into brigands,
which led to the need for a larger army,
which led to taxes rising further.
And so on.
Definitely. At least for the time being. Most people who live outside the USA have no idea how local most of the important politics is here. I didn’t realize this until I moved from Canada to Missouri but I will say this; if I had to choose between Mike Parson as governor vs. Donald Trump as president, I would pick Parson without batting an eye. The governor and Missouri legislature have a lot more impact on my life than Congress or the President. Did you hear what Kristy Noem said about the fate of Biden’s so-called mask mandate in South Dakota? The only way the deep state can win here is to do what the Nazis did. Centralize power. That has to happen first. I’m sure the powers-that-be will try but it will not happen quickly or easily.
Also, if they can steal the presidency, what’s to prevent them from stealing everything else for the 2022 midterms? Their goodness of heart?
Republican state legislatures will control most the redistricting and the chances of the Democrats holding the House in 2022 is almost nil. Pelosi may lose her speakership because so many of the democrats are mad they lost. The system is against the Dems. The only reason they could steal the presidency (if they did) was by focusing on it and losing everywhere else. If they stole the presidency and we don’t know that for sure yet, they did only because of the horrible election systems some of the swing states have. There is no such opportunity to steal the governorship of Missouri.
To add to my previous comment, my son who goes to university in Rolla, Missouri said that in that city, apart from the university, there is no evidence of a pandemic. Everything is as normal as it was before CoVid-19; no social distancing, no masking, no restrictions on numbers at gatherings, no businesses closed, etc. In St. Louis County, we have a few more restrictions because of our local government. In this case, the local government is actually impacting our lives more than the state government. However, in places like Florida, the state has forbidden local governments from passing restrictions.
I steeled myself to watch Viva Frei, a YouTube law channel. YouTube requires the host to give periodic disclaimers over the content and announce that AP has declared Biden president elect.
Nevermind, it was a joke.
When did it all go wrong?
When did, for example, the FBI become an organisation that would COVER UP the crimes of the Bidens – rather than expose them?
Looking back, with hindsight (20/20 vision), I think it was the Clinton years – the 1990s.
The totalitarians took control of the Federal bureaucracy in the 1990s (although there were plenty of them there even before the 1990s) – and they have really been in control ever since.
When people such as me thought we had won in 1989 we just did not realise the West, not just the United States but the West in general, was going into its last decades.
I fear it is too late now.
Still let us fight on to the bitter end – if bitter it must be.
In Boston, many know that the FBI is corrupt. Howie Carr, Boston Herald columnist, WRKO, Newsmax) has written extensively about it.
In addition, the Boston FBI is accused of knowing that their informant, Steve Flemmi, murdered many informants.
The most commonly used voting machines in the USA permit two-handed voting.
You can pull the handle with one hand and hold your nose with the other.
Some numbers; 2016 San Francisco turnout 80%; Trump 7%, in 2020 same 85% and Trump 12%; that’s 17,000 votes. Turnout in the Philadelphia-like Bay View 74% and in those precincts most West Philly-like, turnout in the mid 50s. Anything anywhere near 85% is cheating.
Despite what the media says its not in the exit poll; the action is who has not voted, fill in the blanks and more time lets more blanks get filled in. Signature verification is when required is easily overcome. In the old days with a hard deadline at polls closed; the team would check the list posted hourly at the precinct door, and check it against the list of their supporters to find out who owed a vote. Now that’s all on line, running lists of who has voted and by deduction who has not. Too easy
Now this next bit has been blocked all around; all over government salaries and pensions are under (extra) threat because Trump and Pelosi couldn’t agree on a bailout. So the election was stolen; if its ok to steal shoes its ok to steal and election.
One small correction:
“Dear Guardian readers, everything you think you know about who supports Trump is wrong”
Should be:
“Dear Guardian readers, everything we told you about who supports Trump is wrong”
They told us wrong. They’re still doing it.