I suppose it says something about The Daily Telegraph’s admirable commitment to freedom of speech that it let this comment I paste up below through, or possibly, the laxness of its editors. Following a comment piece about the forthcoming trial of the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, we get this remark, by someone dubbing itself “Lord Barnett”:
The trial will be a farce,held in New York for the benefit of the jews and the media of the World,The people who should be on trial are the Israelis,George Bush senior,Bill Clinton,the Bush Administration and American jews.Nobody is interested in why 9/11 happened,you can also lay the blame at the door of all Western Govenments for doing nothing to stop the holocaust on the Palistinians by Israel.Every American Administration has stood by,watched and helped Israel steal Palistinian land and murder its people, then call them Terrorists when they try to get it back,we have all watched and read about it,what is going on there is an absolute disgrace,lets just have a look at the Middle East today,Saudi Arabia,run by dictators with American backing to keep them in power,well its either that or the mad mullas who would switch the oil tap off,who would you rather have in power?, Its the same with Kuwait,Bahrain,Oman and the rest,but then you have Syria and Iran,the only Arab Nations who are trying to fight America and its dominance in the Middle East,they are called pariahs because they speak out against America,Iran is developing nuclear weapons,just like the Israelis,why should Israel have them but not Iran?, And then yesterday we have Netanyahu saying he is going to build around nine hundred more new homes on stolen Palistinian land,and what does America say to this? “Its Disappointed”, wow,there`s a strong statement that will have the Israelis quaking in their boots,until the West stands up to Israel and America there will never be peace in the World,but i am sure there will be another 9/11.The United Nations is a farce,not one single resolution it has brought against Israel has passed because America has vetoed them,whats the point? Then Independant Inquiries done by jewish people outlining all the crimes that Israel has committed have been dismissed by Israel and America as biased,who is going to stand up to these criminals?.
This character repeats the trope that Israel has “stolen” land from others, that it is a terror state, and that its fear about Iran’s having nuclear weapons is somehow groundless or unfair. This moron presumably is deaf to the fact that from the time of its founding, various Arab powers have been vocal in their desire to crush this relatively tiny state; he – I assume it is a he – is deaf to the fact that Iran is led by a man who is openly in favour of wiping Israel out.
As I said, it is perhaps right for the Telegraph to let people like this rant and rave about the Jews, Israel, blah-blah. It is sometimes salutary to be reminded of the depths of hatred and ignorance that exist in the breasts of those who wish that country and the Jewish people harm. It pays to know that there are enemies out there, if only to encourage continued vigilance.
About the only half-truth admitted by this idiot is the point about Western backing for Saudi Arabia. That remains, in my book, a serious failing of Western foreign policy. The sooner we can reduce our use of oil from that nation – which has financed a good deal of anti-western terrorism – the better.
When I read tripe like that, I sometimes wish I would be hated by people who are a bit more intelligent – but then I guess I should be careful what I wish for…
I cant see any lies in what the guy is saying…but maybe i am bias as a muslim….
But heres a question for you then….The Americans/British can go into Afghanistan in the name of everything under the sun!
Why dont they go to Mr Mugabe’s country in the name of giving the people freedom and democracy?
‘Not only in Tehran and Damascus is “Israel” a dirty word. In Turkey, in most European countries, Canada and even to some extent in the United States, Israel is becoming a leprous and hated country. The world in general is sick of the daily provocations issued by its ministers in the form of new neighbourhoods or isolated outposts, not to speak of their running the diplomatic process into the ground.’
Netanhayu is steering Israel to disaster
By Yariv Oppenheimer, Jewish Chronicle, November 19, 2009
http://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/22067/netanhayu-steering-israel-disaster
It is unfair to slag the Saudis — popular in certain quarters, but still not fair. Since the demise of the Texas Railroad Commission, the Saudis have single-handledly done more to stabilize the price of oil and keep the energy flowing than anyone else. Now, if you want to slag the selfish Norwegiwans, …
Anyway, let’s stop thinking about the so-called Palestinians for a moment. When is the UN going to use its immense moral authority to do something for the Tibetans, whose homeland was invaded & annexed by the Chinese at around the same time that the UN created Israel? Why do the solons at the UN and the smart newspaper editorialists ignore China’s cultural genocide of the Tibetans?
NEWS ALERT
There’s a massive storm building on the climate change front. Hundreds of juicy e-mails hacked from the Climate Research Unit. See Bishop Hill, WattsUpwithThat, ClimateAudit, Lucia’s Blackboard, Lubos Motl, The Unbearable Nakedness of CC, Harmless Sky etc for more.
As skeptics most of us are cautious about the validity of the content which is very interesting. CRU have confirmed the hack, the only gap is if any e-mails have been edited in between. A massive story if true.
Alice, the issue of Saudi backing for terror is not in dispute.
Check this out: (Link)
The desire of nations such as Iran to destroy Israel is a matter of public record.
The NATO powers now in Afghanistan went there to destroy the training bases of Al-Quaeda, the organisation responsible for the mass-murder of 9/11. In order to do so, they also attempted to destroy the revolting Taliban regime, a process that is obviously proving very difficult.
I thought it was the UN that was “disappointed”, not the USA? Or did I misread that?
The reason Israel is hated by (most of) the nations which surround it is that it is the only approximately-functioning pluralist democracy for miles, and miles, and miles around. It is an intolerable spike in the ribs for all the others, which, upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire, found that they would have to work for their living. Therefore it must go.
To jman 09.51:-
Your point is a very good one, and I am incensed that we have done nothing about that awful fellow Mugabe. A couple of London Policemen could have flown in and arrested the bugger twney-odd years ago. Now, we here look like a laughing-stock of pantywaist patsies, and Mugabe still lords it fatly over his demoralised and starving people. But he can’t live for ever I suppose.
Also to jman, regarding Afghanistan, Iraq, and the like:-
I have never failed to support Tony Blair over these wars, which were the only honest conviction-based decisions he ever took after 9/11 – although he is a disgusting Stalinist in all other respect, who pretended to be a Conservative so as to get elected. Saddam, I would have pulled down unilaterally, as I regard it as the Jihadist duty of western liberals/capitalists/libertarians (whatever) to destroy actively any murdering stalinist scumbags wherever and whenever they may exist, even if they pretend to be the Heads of State of other sovereign nations. Saddam’s adherence to Islam was not relevant to me in this issue: he could have been a Christian or a Jedi Knight and I would have said the same thing about how we ought to end his life and his rule for him.
Firstly, I think the comment Johnathan has reprinted shows that giving oxygen to idiot views allows them to be seen for the rubbish that they are.
For example :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rBCst4hph0
I also think it is unreasonable for the US and other Western democracies to solve every single problem in the world. Perhaps they have got other reasons for being in Iraq and Afganistan, perhaps not. But they will act with their own interests in mind. It would be fantastic if the Muslim commentariat removed the planks from their own leaders’ eyes before worrying about the mote of Israel, which, as is pointed out above, is mostly irritating because of its success.
Incidentally, I look forward to the ‘beclowning’ of this climate change rubbish. Go nuclear or go watermelon – it’s as simple as that.
Anyone recall who assassinated Itzak Rabin?
The North Africans remind me of Chicago in the ’20’s.
In the past, “a nation” was “a people”, not real estate.
This has devolved into those-who-own-real-estate, the
people being serfs attached like a barn to the land.
Spiral downward, to “the people” owning a piece of land
Which is financed, foreclosed, or taken for local “govern-
ment use.
Iran doesn’t threaten Isreal. The leaders and their owners do. The collective corporate feudal warlords,
and their unintelligence communities.
There are anti-Zionists in Isreal. Isreal was founded by terrorists. The British should remember that, like the term “Irish confetti”. It has to be viewed in context of the place, people and times.
This sort of thing is an aspect of “the human condition”
Lucretia and Ceasar Borgia (their father, the Pope), the last personal relationship that badly soured, etc.
I enjoyed seeing that Muslims were encountering a revival of Mau-Mau. And, the recognition of Voo-doo as
a religion.
cjf, if there is a coherent point to that comment of yours, then I must have missed it.
Hmmm…according to “Lord Barnett”, Iran is an Arab nation…news to me…
JP – Lord Idiot also appears to be labouring under the misapprehension that Iran is an Arab country when, of course, it is not.
jman – see what you miss when you conflate religion with nationality?
Jesus, talk about Eyeless in Gaza!
The reason we havent sorted out Mugabe Jman, is very simple.
It is a fundamental principle of the left, that only white folks can be evil murdering racist scum, and if Black people turn out to be evil murdering racist scum on occasion, well it’s all our white folks fault anyway.
New Labour are scared shitless of being called Neo Colonialist if we went in and sorted that little problem out in our former colony, but they seem quite happy to sit on their hands and watch the Chinese be neo colonialist with cash rather than guns.
Forget Israel, Tibet, Zimbabawe etc
What about Scotland ? The so-called Scots stole the land from the Picts and with the support of the EU, English and Americans continue to illegally occupy Pictish land to this day .
Their Illegal settlements , such as Glasgow and Edinburgh must be evacuated.
Free Pictistan !!!
I guess the old saw “with friends like these who needs enemies” is proven again.
The only Israel that the Islamic world will accept is an Israel that does not exist.
Palestinian children are taught from play school age to hate Jews as worse than pigs that drink the blood of Palestinian children.
The Islamic intent would seem to be very simply to subjugate the world to what is perceived as Allah’s will, and if you take a look around Europe you will see that is being achieved in a most profoundly successful manner. Including in the Telegraph.
Anyone who objects has a very difficult and possibly short life. Such as Theo van Goch, and now Geert Wilders who only survives courtesy of a phalanx of security personnel.
The fact that Israel survives at all is a bit of a miracle.
The Jerusalem Post contains some great material and it is very, very free speech regarding the posting of comments, by the way.
Taylor: Ha! But there aren’t any Scots left in Edinburgh are there? At least I remember them as being a poor minority when I lived there about five years ago.
The small problem with “stop buying Saudi oil” is that the only effective way to make it happen is to “stop buying oil at all” – and that would have worldwide impoverishing effects far worse than anything supporting the Saudi princes does.
(Even if nobody in the West bought oil from Saudi Arabia, that would simply mean that they’d sell it to everyone else, like China and India, while the West bought oil from other sellers.
It’s a fungible good with a lot of sources.
You can’t just stop buying it from one source with any real effect, unless you can get every significant purchaser to agree and enforce that agreement.)
cjf,
Iran doesn’t threaten Isreal. The leaders and their owners do. The collective corporate feudal warlords,
and their unintelligence communities.
Had you ever been to Israel, you would know what a monstrously stupid statement that is.
If you think that “corporate feudal warlords” (whatever you mean by that) are behind settler groups like Gush Emunim or their modern incarnation, Ne’emanei Yisrael, you need to put down the paint thinner.
What “Palestinian” land? There has NEVER in history been a sovereign country called Palestine. In fact the name “Palestine” was a Roman invention started after they defeated and Jews, exiling many of them from their homeland. There have been several Jewish governments/countries in that area.
The whole concept of a “Palestinian” people was Yasser Arafat’s greatest achievement. He not only got the world to believe in the concept of a “Palestinian people,” he got the arabs living in and near the geographic area called Palestine to believe in it. How many arabs who now call themselves “Palestinian” referred to themselves that way before 1964 when the PLO got started? It was the JEWS living in British Manddate Palestine who were referred to as “Palestinian.” Non-Jews were referred to as Arabs, NOT Palestinians. But why let historical accuracy get in the way of one political end game to destroy Israel.
If these so-called “Palestinians” want a homeland let let take over Jordan which is almost 80% of British Mandate Palestine. Or else let them take over southern Lebanon or southwestern Syria which were part of the geographic area called “Palestine” for the 400 years of the Ottoman Empire.
Stu E.: absolutely true, but absolutely irrelevant to anything.
the UN going to use its immense moral authority
Hang on. When did this get discovered? Is this recent?
I mean, the UN is immense in a lot of ways, but I was not aware that moral authority was one of them.
Zimbabwe was not used as a base in which to prepare attacks that murdered 3000 of my own.
Agreed, Sunfish, but then neither was Iraq.
Taylor: It’s worse than that. Edinburgh is in Scottish-occupied Northumbria.
“The sooner we can reduce our use of oil from that nation – which has financed a good deal of anti-western terrorism – the better.
Two words. Sarah Palin.
For those who don’t remember, she’s the one who negotiated the ground-breaking deal with the government of Canada, for a pipeline of – can’t remember exactly – 2,000 miles from a friendly country.
Alberta and the NW Territories have oil. Enough to last until a surge of new technology for power comes into place.
Saudi Arabia is de trop and one looks forward to the shifting sands covering the dome of Mecca.
The upside of this will be, Muslims will be able to place their loos facing any old where.
Johnathan Pearce: The NATO powers now in Afghanistan… also attempted to destroy the revolting Taliban regime, a process that is obviously proving very difficult.
Actually, destroying the Taliban regime was quite easy – it was accomplished in a matter of weeks with a few hundred Green Berets and air support.
What is proving difficult is establishing a functional alternative government with the Taliban survivors lurking across the border in Paklstan, lobbing firebombs through the window.
Stu & Alisa
The famous 242 UN resolution talks about returning lands to _____ [no mention of Palestinians] . The Palestinians were Jordanians at the time. And if King Hussian would not have joined Egypt – We would not have a problem today. Some think that this is why they started with their terror tactics – to invent their identity on the world stage.
Jonathan, I think pretty much all states are terror states, given the chance.
It isn’t remotely surprising that the more public comment places online are thronged with anti-Israel fanatics, pro-Israel fanatics, and conspiracy theorists of every stripe – economy, ecology, disease and evolution all attract fanatical believers and deniers, too. Try suggesting anywhere in a public forum that vaccination is a valuable public health measure, or that ME has a psychological component… and await the avalache.
If one is an obsessive and over-certain believer in any of a variety of know-nothing tropes, or one is self-realised by repeating propaganda as a mantra in order to illustrate belonging, (“Only the guilty have anything to fear,”) then the most public comment spaces are the most attractive. It is compulsive witness, like that of the bible-waving ranters on street corners.
The wonder of the internet is that it makes public ranting in more than one place at a time available to almost all. Verity not just eternal, but omnipresent. And the attempts of the big-media websites to make the flood of comment manageable and monetisable actually discriminates in favour of the multirant, over the thoughtful occasional contributor. The registration systems they use are laborious and frequently incompatible with the privacy precautions of sensible people. Those bursting with fervour will not be put off, particularly if commentardiness is a hobby.
Quite separately,
The sooner we can reduce our use of oil from that nation -…
Unfortunately put. That requires reduction of the use of oil altogether, or shutting down free trade altogether. Since Saudi oil is the among cheapest to produce, then the former approach means they turn their taps off last, so less oil demand means we use proportionately more Saudi oil, if less absolutely, doesn’t it?
Lower oil prices cut the power that Saudis in general have, but they also weaken the House of Saud itself within the kingdom by undermining the patronage system. Which may be a bad thing, since that makes the religious orders relatively more powerful.
Reducing use of Saudi oil directly is even more problematic. Isolation and sanction applied to oil-states do not have a promising record. Ghaddafi, Saddam, Ahmedinejad and dozens of smaller tyrants have been strengthened in power by the monopolies that international sanctions reinforced. The KSA’s fundamental – both senses – strategy has been self-isolation.
In the century and a half since The Communist Manifesto, economism has infected our deepest dreams. But it is mistaken. A mirage, not a spectre. Though money has been the sinew of politics since Crassus, Croesus and before, wealth is but one prize of power. Political problems do not have economic solutions.
Dabr: so what? I couldn’t care less what identity they may have chosen for themselves, all I care is how they behave – and they behave like murderous idiots. Any people should have the right to self-identify in any way they like. What they shouldn’t have the right to do is make unreasonable demands and act in unreasonable manner – which is exactly what most Arabs, including the Palestinians, have been doing for at least the last 100 years.
What “Palestinian” land? There has NEVER in history been a sovereign country called Palestine. In fact the name “Palestine” was a Roman invention started after they defeated and Jews, exiling many of them from their homeland. There have been several Jewish governments/countries in that area.
The whole concept of a “Palestinian” people was Yasser Arafat’s greatest achievement.
Yes, Stu E, absolutely, and Alisa, it is extremely relevant for Jews to remember this and stuff like it because they are getting talked out of Israel by themselves. The worst (most effective) enemies of Israel are within such as Peace Now and JStreet, etc.
Regarding oil requirements from Saudi, etc. I believe the oil under and just north of Alaska would be enough to keep the US going for a long, long time but powers that be within the US refuse to allow it to be exploited for some reason.
I get the feeling that the enemy of freedom does, indeed, know no boundaries.
John B: I am as far from Peace Now and their ilk as one can think of. I live here because I want to live here. If the Palestinians (or whatever they want to call themselves) want to live here as well, I have no problem with that, as long as they take the ‘live and let live’ approach to, well, life in general – which so far they haven’t. Incidentally, the Jews’ historical connection to this land is one of the major reasons why I want to live here, but this is beside the point, just as the Palestinians’ reasons for their supposed desire to live here is. Both Jews and Arabs had consistently maintained presence in this area for at least several centuries, this should be enough for both to have a right to remain here, as far as ‘rights’ go. However, that holds only as long as life is the ultimate objective of all involved. Those who’s objective is instead death and destruction can be carpet-bombed out of existence, as far as I’m concerned.
Well, there is this small matter of degree, which largely depends on the particular culture and history. Other than that – yes, unfortunately that’s the way it works.
Yes. I agree with you about live and let live. I think it is also important for the Jews to remember their inheritance of their land and the tenuousness (?) and duplicity of the arguments put up against this.
A sort of example of needing to hold on to the reality of things is what happened with the Al Dura event when the Israeli Army initially apologised for it and thereafter the Israeli authorities just wanted to sweep the whole thing under the carpet instead of exposing it for the massive fraudulent hoax, that lit the fire of the “second intafada”, that it was.
Israel really owes Phillipe Karsenty and his friends for that help.
Caroline Glick in Jerusalem Post seems to have a good balance on things?
Best to you and those with you.
Don’t even start me on our “authorities”, John. And thank you for your good wishes.
Alisa,
Intelligent people, idiotic people, incoherent people( see cjf ), or mixture thereof – with all changes, one thing is constant: the hate itself.
If not the outright hate, then pretense at objectivity by giving a thought and consideration to the outright-hating people’s “arguments”.
Sadly this is the direction we are moving in.
For example, the BBC often claims that there is a place called “East Jerusalem” which is not part of Israel (for example I heard this statement on BBC radio) with the standard lie added – that “no nation accepts this city as the undivided capital of Israel” and specifically mentioning the United States as a nation that did not recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Thus ignoring the vote of Congress years ago on this matter – but then I am sure Barack Obama and General Jones would like to that, as they claim that Islamists would not be Islamists if there was a “Palestian State” that included “East Jerusalem” . They do not need to read such old classics as Winston Churchill’s “The River War” to understand the nature of radical Islam and that it has NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH THE EXISTANCE OF ISRAEL (the book was written long before the state of Israel was reestablished of course) – five minutes watching Arabic language television (for example the children’s shows) woud tell them all they need to know – all they need is someone to translate it for them.
However, no doubt General Jones would just say that the translation (which would show how the little children are taught to hate the West – not just the Jews) was “Zionist propaganda”.
General Jones (and so on) is not as far as he might claim from the sort of person who wrote the comment on the Daily Telegraph site.
For those who do not know.
“East Jerusalem” (actually central Jerusalem) was captured by the Arab armies in 1948 (even in 1890 the largest single group of people living there were Jews – see the Ottoman Empire census) – it was never the capital of “Palestine” because there has never been an independent country by that name (the name was invented by the Emperor Hadrian as an insult to the Jews). Most of the British mandate of “Palestine” is called “Jordan” – originally “Trans Jordan” as it was that part of the holy land beyond the river Jordan.
The ignorance continues – for example parts of the so called “West Bank” are actually nearer the Mediterranean sea than they are the river Jordan – they almost cut Israel in to.
One would think that five minutes with a map would cure the BBC (and gernal media and academia) types of their delusions – but even years living in the area do not help.
There is a fixed ideology – which is as follows:
Islam is peaceful and tolerant – this ignores both the life of the founder of Islam and the holy texts of the faith, and wildly distorts Islamic history (academics, those supposed lovers of truth, have no shame in doing this – in fact they take pride in it as an example of their “pluralistic tolerance”).
The only reason for conflict is the existance of the evil Zionist state of Israel – get rid of Israel and all will be candy trees and rivers of lemonaid between Islam and the West (about one and half thousand years of conflict have to be “interpreted” in order for people to believe this).
“But what about the President’s Chief of Staff – surely he is pro Israel?”
R.E. is pro whoever is the most powerful person he can latch on to – at the moment that is Barack Obama. He is not loyal to Israel (inspite of having served in the Israeli army) or to anything or anyone else apart from himself.
Actually this is to complement the man – at least he is not a Marxist like so many of the other key people.
Anyway – Israel may well be destoyed, and various powerful people in the Hyde Park area of Chicago will be happy. But do not for a moment think that this will end the struggle between Islam and the West – because it will not.
That conflict is in fact more widespread than it has ever been – for example those 500 Swedish troops in Afghanistan might be better employed trying to retake Malmo in Sweden (although saying that in Sweden might well get you into court – after all the “progressive” academics and media creatures even tell women who have been raped that they must “adapt to the new society”). And the conflict is only going to get worse – whether Israel lives or dies.
Final point – for all the talk of “Islamic socialism” (and yes various Islamist groups say they believe in it) this de facto alliance between the left (including the Marxist left) and the Islamists in the West will not last.
Both groups are using the other and both intend to betray each other at the key time.
It is a bit like the Nazi-Soviet pact. Oh yes Stalin was planning to betray Hitler just as Hitler was planning to betray Stalin.
That is the real reason Stalin was caught so much by surprise by the invasion of 1941 – he was so obsessed with his own invasion plans that he forgot that Germany (although tiny in resources compared to Russia) might also be planning betrayal.
A few scattered remarks on the article and comments.
1) This seems pretty mild by the standards of stuff I come across regularly, including on the ‘Telegraph’ blogs. Particularly amusing are the comments by Catholic Rightists asserting that the Jewish claim to Israel is invalidated by their rejection of Jesus, citing Chrysostom to that effect, which serves to remind one, if nothing else, that just because the Vatican II R.C. Left are thoroughly wicked doesn’t mean that their R.C. opponents are much better.
2) I’m surprised Lord Barnett didn’t cap it off with some variant on ‘but you’ll never hear this because the media is controlled by Zionists’. Perhaps the thick irony of these self-refuting statements is starting to bring itself home, but I suspect not.
3) On the same note, the comment is mercifully free of claims that ‘all criticism of Israel is immeditately labelled anti-semitism’ or ‘the Israelis are always bringing up the Holocaust to stifle free speech’, often followed, with no trace of irony, by or ‘you know what Gaza is a bit like …. Treblinka!’.
4) I have no particular brief for Islam, but I can’t really get that riled up by its ethos of conquest and subjugation, which, if hardly edifying, seems to be a variant on the natural human instinct to expand and less smelly than the Christian obession with sex and suffering. I just can’t understand why you dumb caucasions import muslims en masse to your country and then stand around looking dumbfounded when they don’t assimilate and start taking over. I mean, if a million Romans were to land at Dover tomorrow you’d hardly just let them in, even if you did value their literature.
5) The furore over homes being built (and the eviction of squatters who wouldn’t pay their rent) in Jerusalem is in a way quite helpful. After seeing concession after concession, moronic prisoner exchanges and idiot peace deals from Israel, I’d almost washed my hands of it (after all, I’m both too religious and too anti-nationalist to be a real Zionist), but Israelis really do seem to be waking up and the fact that the world sees Jerusalem as no more Jewish than Hebron plays a big part of that. Even the most limpwristed peacenik has no intention of letting the Arabs run one inch of Jeruslem, after all, the last time they ran it they destroyed every synagogue and used tombstones for latrines. So, hopefully, when Israelis see that “peace” means the equivalent of Jews taking over Mecca and obliterating the Muslims presence there they’ll start to see the truth. (The Arabs kept starting wars, the Arabs kept losing ergo they don’t have a right to anything and basically, they can just f**k off.) My impression is that this is exactly what is happening.
Paul Marks writes:
Precisely. Those straight lines on the map of the Middle East were in large part drawn up by the victorious powers in the First World War, if my memory of history is accurate. A fact of which most Israel-haters are ignorant or would prefer to ignore.
one of the causes of anti-israel statments is that people belive that israel controles usa. actually its not true. israel create weapons and aircrafts for usa and it also depences on usa opinion . but usa is not controlled by israel