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Primitive barbarism in Indonesia Indonesia, the most populous muslim nation in the world, is often held up as an example of how moderate islam can be reconciled with modernity.
Indonesia’s province of Aceh has passed a new law making adultery punishable by stoning to death, a member of the province’s parliament has said. The law also imposes severe sentences for rape, homosexuality, alcohol consumption and gambling.
Apparently not.
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The law also imposes severe sentences for rape
For the perpetrator or the victim?
Still fighting the French.
Everyone being equal, some will be more equal than others. Cultural, religious, or political nudity is seen; but, not noticed.
“For the perpetrator or the victim?”
That is a really good question… it’s sad that it has to be asked in the first place.
I must protest your use of the term “primitive barbarism.” This is clearly advanced barbarism.
Let’s not blame all of Indonesia over one lousy province! Bali is a beautiful province, except for the hardcore islamists.
But NG, that’s the whole issue. Although, it is worth pointing out that Indonesia is a shithole for the most part, except maybe Bali, and that Acheh has always been one of those breakaway provinces, precisely because it’s Islamic to the core.
Why is Indonesia a shithole? Well, there are only ~3% Chinese there powering the economy, as opposed to 10x that number in Malaysia. Damn few Indians there also.
Not that Malaysia is all that, but it’s a far sight better.
Some parts of Indonesia, including Aceh, might well be shitholes, but most are not, even if a few shits reside in them. It was in Aceh after the tsunami a few years ago, that aid workers and relief supplies were impeded by Islamist officials, and of course Aceh has a history of attempting secession from Indonesia, which I believe has largely been motivated by its rather nastier interpretation of Islam. However, this is not typical of most of Indonesia, which by and large is now governed more democratically, and whose people enjoy more freedoms, than those of any other Muslim nations, including Malaysia.
Yeah, total barbarism. It’s a real shame that they’re punishing adulterer’s and rapists the way they should be.
What’s sad is you think this is barbaric. What’s barbaric? That they (Indonesia) won’t end up with Jerry Springer shows like us, good ol’civil america?
Maybe you should look into the devastation rape and infidelity cause in a country with a lax disposition. Better yet, experience them first hand.
Moron.
Know-nothing Jesse,
You might be forgiven for not knowing this, so I’ll inform you now- Sharia law decrees that there must be four witnesses to a rape before it is admitted as rape in law. If a woman claims she was raped, but cannot provide four witnesses, then her own words are taken as proof that she has had sex outside of marriage- that she is automatically judged to be a wicked woman, perhaps trying to cover up her fornication or adultery. The Sharia is based on the Koran, and is therefore unalterable.
How many people commit rape when there are four or more witnesses about?
That is why it is barbaric- the raped women can also be stoned for sex outside marriage.
What do you say now, Jesse?
Oh, Geoff, are you serious?
1. Indonesian GDP (PPP) in 2008 was $3,986, in contrast to over $14,000 in Malaysia.
2. Atheism is damned near a criminal act in Indonesia, whereas in Malaysia people don’t give a shit. In addition, Indonesia only recognises 5 (or was it 6) religions.
3. Quick, name three Malaysian jihadi terrorist acts in the past 10 years! Whereas in Indonesia, I can point to the Bali bombings (twice!) and the hotel bombing in Jakarta.
4. Malaysia is 47th on Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index 2008, as opposed to Indonesia’s 126th joint ranking.
Now, Malaysia is not great, and I’ll be the first to shout it from the mountaintops. But seriously, Indonesia better than Malaysia? Internet access is limited to ~11% of their population, for crying out loud.
Ah, the woodwork – yuck.
Needless to say the above was not addressed at Gregory.
I must say that having read this, I’ll be giving Indonesia a miss. Cannot say I was ever that keen in the first place.
Now as for Japan, that is a place very much on my tourist list.
Nuke, ignore the fundamentalist trolls (this ignoramus is probably a fundamentalist christian actually), they are crude thuggish barbarians that pop up in all societies, but fortunately only dominate a few.
Bali was the island to the east of Java that did not fall to the Muslims – however they are there now I am told.
As for Islam – traditionally in Indonesia Islam had developed (strict Muslims would say “been corrupted”) into a religion that was moderated by local culture.
However, in recent decades many Muslims (partly because of Saudi spending) have been seeking out the roots of their faith – and trying to scrub it clean of local cultural influences.
Actually it is the most modern people in Indonesia the people must detached from the traditions of local culture who become “Islamists”.
Perhaps they are the future – after all (at this is the terrible truth) their intpretation of Islam may be the correct one.
In accordance with both the holy texts of Islam – and in accordance with the life of Mohammed.
Blair and Bush (with Blair being the senior partner in this – after all he was arguing for going into Iraq when Bush was still attacking McCain for being in favour of such things, back in 2000) declare that the “Islamists” misinterpret Islam.
However, neither Mr Blair or Mr Bush ever gave any EVIDENCE for their opinion that the “Islamists” misinterpreted Islam. They just stated their opinion very loudly (again and again) and denouced anyone who had a different opinon as a bigot.
If Mr Blair and Mr Bush were mistaken then the situation now is much worse than it was on 9/11 – as the Muslim population (both in the world and in Western nations) is much bigger now than it was then.
Ann Coulter (amongst many others) was denounced for her opinion that a better policy would be to convert Muslims to Christianity. And perhaps her view that they should be converted in countries that are already part of the Islamic world was absurd.
However, if they are not converted in nations like Britain and France the future may be rather troubled.
“Why do we not just convert them to athiesm?”
Trying to take away someone’s religion and offering him nothing in return does not seem likely to succeed.
“But athieism is not nothing – it is modern technology and so on”.
Muslims can have modern technology and so on without giveing up Islam and their hopes of life after this one.
So what is being offered to them if they turn away from Islam?
And, please people, do not offer pornography (and other such) most young Islamists go through that stage – and the porn (and drugs and whatever) leaves them empty after a while.That is why they turn to Islam.
Because they are not offered anything else to turn to.
“But Christianity is false and athism is true”.
That may be so – but if it is, the West has no future. It will fall to those who do believe in their religion (no matter how false it may be).
Perry,
Definitely not a fundamentalist Christian. Not even close. That is not to say it might not be a fanatical ‘Christian’, but definitely quotes are called for. This guy is all for casting the first stone.
“But other religious communities exist in the West”.
None so big as Islam – and none with the nature of Islam.
For example, neither the Jewish or the Hindu faith lay upon their followers a duty of world conquest.
I’m in Indonesia right now (married to one), and Aceh is far from typical. They and Sumatrans are viewed as rather primitive by the Javanese, for example. Most indonesians don’t mock Islam, but they’re not shy of mocking, criticising or ignoring those who interpret in ways they don’t like. You’ll find more extremist muslims in the UK than here, i think. The ones here that wear the hijab or other strict islamic dress are distrusted by many as they’re such a contrast to normal indonesians.
Parts of it really are a shithole, though. Leave an expensive hotel in Jakarta, and within a mile you’ll find slums and people struggling to survive.
Johnathan Pearce: If you intend to go to Indonesia for a holiday, go to Bali. Really truly beautiful place and worth it. Nowhere else, really. Sure, the place is Hindu, but you can get your beefsteak, no problems.
That’s why the place was bombed, after all. Because it wasn’t Islamic.
Who were your remarks aimed at, Alisa? My comments came just before both of Geoff’s…
BG: I think her comments were aimed at Jesse. Although I should wait for Alisa herself to say rather than speculating.
And I suppose I should retract somewhat my statement that Indonesia by and large is a shithole. With a few hundred islands, it’s possible some of it is after all not unlivable.
Jesse was his/her/its name? Thanks, Gregory. Nuke, you don’t live in the woodwork, I’m sure? Although I rather could picture you living in the woods…:-)
Well, that’s alright then! And no, I live in the suburbs of Sydney- NSW, not sydney, Newfoundland. I can’t tell you the number of people bitterly disappointed to be arriving here instead of Canada! I think we should import some maple leaves, and some mooses. (We do actually have a Canada Bay in Sydney Harbour).
NG: Around the Blue Mountains region? That would certainly qualify as woody, sort of…
Ah, Sydney. Home to the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, where people from all homosexual walks of life make fools of themselves live on national TV. Also home to the inestimable former PM of Australia John Howard who was colourfully described to me as ‘the short bald man haranguing Parliament’ during my tour of Canberra, who had his district gerrymandered into a loss after 12+ years in power.
How is Kevin Rudd working out for you? I understand Cap and Trade got trashed, which is good.
Our prime minister is so famous, they’re going to make about him! For some reason, they change his name to Tintin, but it looks just like him!
Instead of a prime Minister, he is becoming a prime symbolist, signing symbolic treaties and agreements. Nothing much happens, but the photo-ops are fantastic! His ratings are still very high, so Labor will probably just photograph his smile, and romp in.
If you’re a nostalgiac, this is the place to be. We’re going backwards to Unionland. In america, the Mob means a criminal gang- here, mobs are called unions, and it will soon be illegal not to belong to one!
Sorry, the first line should have been ‘.. going to make A FILM about him..’
Nick, it does sound like they are trying to turn Oz into Canada – but what the heck are they going to do with all those kangaroos?
Nuke gray, thanks for the theology lesson. Yes, the Koran is unalterable so have fun proving something like it to be barbaric.
Sharia law may be screwed up, but Sharia law isn’t what I’m defending. As a matter of fact I agree with you about how bogus it is for 4 witnesses to be required for the assault to be considered rape. But I do favor harsh punishment towards rape and adultery- not only in Indonesia, but everywhere. The governments and religions that establish what is considered rape and adultery is beyond me.
“What do you say now” Nuke guy?
And Alisa, if that “woodwork” comment was aimed at me…. well, I don’t get it.
cif – I’m baffled by your comment on Aceh, “Still fighting the French.” The colonial masters were the Dutch and Dutch is still spoken as a second language by the educated class throughout Indonesia.
I agree with Mart. Most Indonesians are not fanatical Islamists and indeed do not have the intolerance for other religions that the nut jobs in the ME and Pakistan harbour. And Indonesia is not an Islamic state. Their form of government is Pancasila, meaning, “from many, one”. In other words, they are not hostile to other religions and the place has a lot of Christian churches. On Sundays, the traffic police are as relaxed about double parking and parking on the pavement as they are about double parking and pavement parking outside mosques. No one gets a ticket for going to a place of worship.
Sumatra has one huge advantage that may offset the aggression of Aceh, and that is one of the only two orang utan rehabilitation centres in the world. (The other is on the Malaysian side of Borneo, outside Kuching.)
Keeping orang utans as pets or circus performers is strictly against the law in both countries, and people are not slow to report those breaking this law to the police. The police confiscate the orang utan and it gets take to the rehabilitation centre in Sumatra (or Borneo) to get its confidence back and to be trained to return to the wild.
A trip there is so magical that even though there may be 20 people watching the orang utans coming in high through the trees to the feeding platforms at feeding time, you could hear a pin drop. It is awesome.
Some who arrive early hang around exactly like commuters on a railway platform. After a few minutes, they walk to the edge of the platform and look “down the line” to see if their keepers are coming, just like humans. If they had watches, they’d be consulting them.
The platforms are very high. The keepers come with big buckets of milk and big bunches of bananas, and these animals have an inner clock. They drink the milk out of cups, by the way. No one trains them to do this. They just do it.
The keepers know them all by sight, and keep notes on who turned up and who didn’t. As the orang utans gain more confidence in freedom, they stop being so dependent on feeding times and eventually go deeper into the jungle. When they stop turning up, that’s rated a success.
Orang means ‘person’ and utan means ‘jungle’, so these animals have always been regarded as our very close relatives.
Also, if I remember correctly, there is a gigantic Buddhist temple monument in Sumatra, which the Pakisanis would have smashed to bits by now, but which the Sumatrans are proud of.
Jesse,you confused person, SHARIA law is what this thread is about! Aceh is imposing sharia law on all its’ citizens! The requirement that there be four witnesses to rape before it is admitted to be a rape is what will soon be the law in Aceh! THAT is what has people worked up! Therefore, since it is unlikely to be legally proved to be rape, rape victims are going to be stoned to death as adulterers!
What are your opinions on that, Jesse? (And you might want to be careful about having the single word ‘moron’ as your last sentence- it looks like your own name!)
Nuke Gray: Clearly your name is designed to be aggressive and compelling. I am sincerely uninterested in how you arrived at it, but:
Point number 1: You don’t have to write Shariah “Law”. Shariah is the body of Islamic law. So you’re writing “English Law Law”.
Point No 2: What does the Indonesian Government have to say about this law you say is in danger of getting in? It sounds very iffy to me. Indonesia is proud of ‘Pancasila’.
You offer no corroberating points. But, given the aggressive nature of Islam, I’m prepared to be convinced.
How independent is Aceh? What can Sumatra do about this aggressive advance of Islam? … and do they have the will to do it? This is always the problem with Islam. Inch by self-righteous inch. Creep by self-abasing creep. If Indonesia does not take care, it will go down the road of Britain.
Verity, verily, I was born ‘Nick’, but Xmas time is not a good time to be a nick, and we used to have a nick here (nick M), and I liked the old Duke Nukem games. ‘Mystery’ solved.
The BBC webpage called it sharia law, and I have simply followed suite, as has everyone else. You might well be right, but wouldn’t people be confused if we changed now?
Nuke Gray – Shariah is the body of Islamic law.
There aren’t Shariah gastric bands; Shariah dental whiteners; Shariah air-conditioners.
Shariah is the body of Islamic law.
Why would one refer to the BBC as an authority on anything, never mind the belief system of Islam, to which it is totally subservient? (Islam, by the way, means ‘submission’ so at least they got that right.)
Verity: Hey hey, whaddaya know, I’m fron KCH myself.
The Indonesian government is trying to rein this in, supposedly. I think they are cognizant that this will pose problems for them.
But Acheh has some degree of autonomy, so it might get in anyways.
And you’re being pedantic, although perhaps necessarily. In Malaysia, you can clearly search for the phrase “undang-undang shariah (or syariah)” so this is not exclusively a non-Muslim error.
Alisa: It is not possible to turn Australia into Canada. The standard ocker is still very attached to his barbies and his beer, which makes Australia far more like a slightly larger version of Texas. Not to mention that unlike the Canadians, the HRCs don’t have as much power in Aussieland. And unlike the kiwis, we don’t bugger our sheep. Well, not so’s you’d notice, anyway.
Then, too, Australia is a regional power, and an education hub. Somehow, I doubt the same is true of Canuckistan.
Nuke, maybe you should put the condescension aside for a second and read the entry.
You’re the moron for arguing something that I’m not even arguing against.
I don’t care if this is martian law, the fact that it’s punishable by death is what I DO admire.
I am not standing on the side of how their law determines if it is rape or adultery. I see the government is playing a catch-22 on the people. Frankly I do find it to be fucked up, and I sympathize with those up in arms about it. But that’s now what I’m arguing.
Like I said, READ THE ENTRY!
There’s nothing about 4 witnesses being required to establish rape from adultery. It simply say’s how moderate islam in Indonesia has degraded into barbarism for passing stoning by death as a result of rape and/or adultery. It say’s nothing about what constitutes rape- WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY NUKE GRAY!
Jesse, this is a LIBERTARIAN blog! Libertarians tend to not believe in capital punishment except for deliberate murder. We do support self-defence, so if a woman killed a would-be rapist, or severely wounded him, we would not complain. Other than that, we tend to think that fines and compensation are the route for criminals to be forced to take.
With such extremist views, what are you doing on this site?
Alisa, if Earth decentralizes, then all those micronations will want their own zoos, so we sell all the weird animals to the zoos which will want them, and we introduce mooses and hope that their nostalgia for cold climates causes snow to fall everywhere- as we all know, wishing makes it so!
Skiing on Uluru is the ultimate hope. Up yours, Greenies!
Terima kasi, Gregory. I’ve never been to Kuching – or anywhere in Borneo – but I went to the orang utan rehabilitation centre in Sumatra and recommend it highly for anyone who wants a completely different experience. It’s sweltering hot and it’s a long trudge up the mountain (they may have put in a cable car by now for all I know, although I hope not), but anyone who’s done it would recommend it. This is something you cannot get anywhere else in the world except Sumatra and Borneo.
In any event, I digress. My point above was, the Indonesians are, by and large, not Islamic hard liners. Witness that Borobudur, the largest Buddhist monument in the world, is in Indonesia, and they are very proud of it. They are also proud of the Buddhist structure in Sumatra. They are a different kettle of fish from the Islamics in the ME, who knocked the noses off ancient Buddhist statues.
I think there is plenty of hope for Indonesia, and they are a member in good standing of ASEAN. I do, though, agree with Alisa about all that woodwork. I think having all that teak growing around them makes them fidgety.
Folks like you are one of the many reasons I am not a pacifist. I am all for shooting people attempting to punish consensual sexual behaviour with death. Anyone who thinks that is appropriate or supports such is dangerously deranged and should be treated accordingly.
Guys, easy on the CAPS, will you? It can damage one’s hearing, not to mention cause high blood pressure.
That could finally explain Russel Crowe’s expatriation.
Blimey, you’ve all been very light on Jesse. He not only thinks that adultery is the business of the state (a distasteful and wrong-headed enough proposition in itself) but applauds its being made illegal and harshly punished.
Disgusting.
I believe that adultery should be harshly punished…oh, wait, the people are already married. Punishment first, then crime?
That’s the real reason I could never live in Oz. Sure, I may call the gun laws a deal-breaker and mean it, but I just couldn’t give up winter. Or mountains. Does Australia have mountains?
But don’t let the moose get out into the wild. They’re, um, interesting. The males only weigh about a ton at maturity, and are terribly nearsighted, and get very frisky in the fall. Meaning that they tend to mistake hunters and cars for lady moose, and I have not studied the family Cervidae in any detail except occasionally over rifle sights, but I’ve never heard of Bullwinkle selecting “Wonderful Tonight” by Clapton on the juke box and buying a Toyota 4Runner a drink first…
So you think it should be handled like any other contract? Adultery I mean.
So you think it should be handled like any other contract? Adultery I mean.
Why not?
If someone doesn’t like that his wife is stepping out with the mailman or the hatcheck girl at the Starbucks or the 1996 Denver Broncos, he’s always free to leave.
More to the point, in my professional capacity I want as little as possible to do with the consensual sexual activities of adults.
We have a winner! Exactly correct.
Hey, Australia has winters! Just go down to Tasmania and freeze your bollocks off. South Australia even gets snow… up on the mountainside, every decade or so…
Well, we call ’em mountains anyway. Maybe you’d prefer the word hillock. But they’re still called mountains!
If only they were handled like contracts.
That’s the problem with modern marriages. Not enough thought, too much emotion. Back in the day, marriages were legal contracts, enumerating precisely negotiated property rights that were transferred along with the bride and so on. Love was not thought of chiefly as an emotion, but a steadfast commitment to making the marriage work and securing the next generation’s place in the world.
Now, there are far more penalties in place for breaking a contract than there are for breaking a marriage. Let me point out that breaking a contract almost always only entails financial and other pecuniary losses; breaking a marriage destroys two or more families.
So, yeah, I’d definitely like to see the marriage contract enforced and handled like any other contract. It’s a good start, at least.