We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
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Samizdata quote of the day To hell with constructive engagement. This is a state that imprisons, tortures and kills its political opponents. It is a state that pollutes public discourse with untruths, and that not only seeks to suppress truths, but that seeks to suppress the free exchange of thought between its citizens. It is a state that gives succour to the genocidal regime in Sudan, and has backed itself into the position of casting Buddhist monks as dangerous terrorists.
– Sam Leith, writing in the Telegraph why we should subject China to an Olympic boycott
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Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
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Isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black?
Doesn’t the US,UK and Canada imprison and kill political opponents-as in the free speech trials in Canada,Waco and Ruby ridge in the US and the imprisonment of the UK blogger.
Isn’t the UK the most surveilled people in history?
The press here regularly prints untruths and distorts truth.Any state not actively working to end the genocide in Sudan(as in actually doing something to end it,not just lipservice) can be considered to be a supporter.
Perhaps I am missing the point here,but I don’t see that many differences between China and the west.
Why do we need an Olympic “boycott”? As I understand it, no British (or any other) athlete is being forced to go. If they want to go and run a bit faster than somebody else in China, let them go, and we can judge them on that behaviour. If their vanity trounces their ethical qualms (should they have any) regarding the Chinese regime, then so be it.
And isn’t it time we stopped giving state money to these Olympic asshats? If they want a sports day, fine. Let them hire or build the facilities, and let them reimburse whichever countries they do it in for all the disruption. The whole thing’s a complete fucking waste of time.
Ooh, somebody British rowed his little boat faster than some foreigners rowed theirs. W00t.
Well, I disagree on principle here, and your other points may only be differences of degree, but they are differences of an enormous degree.
I’m not paying for the UK government broadcaster to sell me olympic coverage from China. I’m cancelling my TV licence for the summer.
The BBC might be happy appeasing the Chinese regime but it isn’t going to do it on my money.
Elle:
To the extent that they are all governments, concerned as is their wont with the herding and fleecing of individuals, the US, UK and Chinese governments do indeed have a great deal in common.
But this is like recognizing that warts, colds and ebola hemorrhagic fever are all similar in that they are viral infections.
Respecting both governments and viruses: Noting what the various specimens of either group have in common is integral to learning how to defend against them, but distinguishing and understanding their obvious differences can be fundamental to staying alive.
Linda, if you could develop a vaccine against government you’d become rich!
Is the “State” the same as the peoples of China?
Are the “Elites” of China importing a “Western” experience into the culture that has made their coalition with military powers the ruling force? Why?
Is there possibly something more than pride involved?
Do we really know enough? Or, is it enough to “feel” enough?
For the first part of the quote I thought the author WAS talking about the United States… when I got to the bottom of the quote and found out that it was talking about China.. I was shocked. Although, China has hampered human rights in Tibet, I totally agree with Elle in saying this is the “pot calling the kettle black!”
Another point I would like to state is that it seems that Western societies tend to hark on the wrongs of non-Western societies as if they themselves have done no wrongs. Immanuel Wallerstein argues that this is because they are using the guise of ‘universal human rights’ to impose their ‘Western’ style culture and society onto other parts of the world. With comments such as these, by Sam Leith, one can see that Western-centrism is alive and well
I lost interest in the Olympics years ago. The whole spectacle has become overtly politicized, completely contrary to the original purpose of the Games. Remember the blatant cheating by judges from Eastern-bloc countries, which was rampant in the 60’s and 70’s? Or the French skating judge who took bribes? And it has become polluted with “junk” sports (synchronized swimming or rhythmic gymnastics anyone?), because every host nation has the right to add its own favorite and all the good ones are already taken. I have a problem with any sport where the winner cannot be determined by some objective measurement (distance, time, points scored, etc.). I enjoy watching the incredible skill of high-level gymnasts or divers, but when you inject the subjectivity of judging their performances you necessarily increase the probability of bias or outright cheating.
The Olympics is not about individual athletes; it’s about nations competing against each other. They’s why the participants are all identified by country and wear flags on their uniforms; why national anthems are played at the medal ceremonies; and why countries subsidize (directly and indirectly) their athletes.
It’s no wonder that China (and other counties) would work so hard for the opportunity to host the Olympics, or spend such obscene amounts on money on their Games. Everything about these Games is political, and anyone who thinks otherwise is incredibly naive. It’s not that we should boycott the Chinese Olympic Games; we should boycott all Olympics unless they revert to what they were intended to be: a contest among the best athletes in the world, regardless of nationality. That will never happen, of course. So I say just ignore them. The Olympics have outlived their usefulness, and should be allowed to simply expire.
D.C Trainor –
Are you familiar with the circumstances of Xijiang Provence and the Oughiers?
The Western boundaries of China are being butressed as Western Civilization continues to move eastward. Indeed “Western” is not only “alive and well,” it is prevailing in the norms of human interactions for civilization.
Strangely, in its East, the Elite of the “State” are importing and replicating the “West.” Nothing is being (nor can be) “imposed” on other cultures; they are simply failing and dying as the peoples within them find other forms of organizing their social orders; not exactly like those of the “West,” but similar, and seeking the same results we have attained (tho’ still in process of seeking better).
The Pot is proving more useful as a vessel for human aspirations than the Kettle.
RRS
Elle:
We regularly excoriate sundry Western governments for their many outrages and sins but if you cannot see a difference in magnitude between China and the West, you are not looking very hard.
CD Trainor:
You were… shocked? You find saying China imprisons, tortures and kills its political opponents shocking? Why is that?
Ian B:
If you read the linked article, that answer is clear: the Olympics are a political event, not some club athletics meet.
Apologies for phonetic spelling of the UYGHUR people’s usual designation.
Perry, that’s not quite the point I was addressing. Yes, it’s a politicised event, but the decision about whether to compete is one for individual athletes. Nobody is compelling them to attend. They go for vainglory, and if they want to fuck off to some evil regime and run a bit faster than somebody else, that’s up to them. It’s their decision and it should be their shame if they do offer their support to dictators by attending (if one takes the view that running a bit faster than somebody else is supporting a regime). It’s not for nations to decide to compete or announce a “boycott”. An official prohibition on competing lets the athletes off the moral hook. It clears them of having to make the judgement regarding whether their avarice for a shiny medallion is more important than ethics.
There’s a lot of wank talked about sports. About how they’re noble and aspirational and something wunnerful and so on, and everybody pretends it’s not really about showing off, which it is. Athletes don’t go to the Olympics to make the world a better place. They go there to get a shiny medallion, stick the finger to the other athletes they beat, and get a contract advertising cornplasters when they get home. They do something useless for fame and money; and there’s nothing wrong with that, but let’s cut the crap about it being any more than that.
If they want to go and jump around a bit, let them as individuals make that choice, and let them as individuals gain infamy, if infamy be deserved, for the circumstances under which they do it.
Perry:
We regularly excoriate sundry Western governments for their many outrages and sins but if you cannot see a difference in magnitude between China and the West, you are not looking very hard.
Because western governments only imprisons and kills a few political dissenters as opposed to China doing it on a larger magnitude,this gives western governments some kind of superior moral authority to boycott the Olympics?
Perry:
We regularly excoriate sundry Western governments for their many outrages and sins but if you cannot see a difference in magnitude between China and the West, you are not looking very hard.
Because western governments only imprison and kill a few political dissenters as opposed to China doing it on a larger magnitude,this gives western governments some kind of superior moral authority to boycott the Olympics?
The Olympic Committee should be consistent with how they implement and execute their decisions on who gets the Olympics. If China is okay – should Zimbabwe get it next? It will be consistent with what they call “the Olympic” values. Or maybe we should have a closer look at their values – if we can find it. More on this in my blog at http://angryafrican.net/2008/02/09/and-the-olympics-goes-to-zimbabwe/
I must say, I do rather like Pete’s idea of cancelling one’s TV licence for the duration of the Olympics. In our case it’d be a trivial matter of cancelling the direct debit, unplugging the cable TV feed and then reinstating the licence and plugging the box back in, once the damn thing was over.
Naturally, Crapita won’t have a system for dealing with such cases, so chaos will ensue. Possibly quite entertaining chaos (to make up for the lack of broadcast entertaiment) if approached in the correct spirit.
Get a bit of popular support for the idea and it might well make an impression.
I’ll put the idea to SWMBO, who might well view it favourably. Last time I mentioned the amount of our money wasted on the Olympics, she replies “Billions? When it started it was just a bunch of Greeks running around on a rock!”
I usually ignore trolls. In fact I often get annoyed with commentators who react to trolls. But here goes.
I’m sure that D.C. Trainor and Elle above can point me to a long list of political opponents that the US has imprisoned, tortured and killed recently, but the fact that Murtha, Pelosi and Rockerfeller are still walking around free as a bird would suggest to me that they are not doing a very good job of it.
Equally, I’m sure that these two worthies can point to any number of ‘Bush lied’ articles to support their contention that the US pollutes public discourse with untruths although personally I remain convinced that an objective reviewer will come to the conclusion that it was Bush’s opponents that were the most guilty of telling porkies about the intelligence prior to the Iraq war.
With blogs as diverse as Moveon, Kos, LGF and Ace of Spades, (which was one of the blogs which led the fight against Bush’s immigration deal), the evil US administration does not seem to be doing a very good job of suppressing the free exchange of thought between its citizens, and the likes of Fox, CNN, the Wapo and the NYT,(barely), are still in business.
It’s true that the neither US, nor the rest of the West, have done anything to be proud of with respect to Darfur and the Sudan, but at least the US and the coalition have the excuse that they were busy bringing down the genocidal regime in Iraq at the time, and they aren’t actually succouring the Sudan regime.
Of course, if the US sent as much as a single platoon of troops to Darfur, D.C and Elle would be leading the screaming mob shouting “US out of Africa!” or some such.
There will be a new administration in Washington in nine months time, and the balance of Congress will change, (as it did last January), but I’m unfamilar with the date of the next presidential election in China, or even the balance of the parties. Perhaps D.C. or Elle could enlighten me.
Oh and D.C., that hoary old Western values crap simply doesn’t fly anymore. The values that are being trumpeted here are human values.
So tell me D.C., how much is the PRC paying you to troll round blogs defending them in the face of the current criticism? Is it enough?
Oh please, let’s hear no more about west-centrism. The last time I looked the world seemed to be trying tio emulate the anglosphere and not the other way around. This cultural imperialism meme is so idiotic it isn’t worth discussing. When DC Trainor and Elle throw their baseball caps on a dung heap I’ll be prepared to listen to their whining until then….
I don’t know if being called a troll is a compliment or derogatory.
The free speech trial in Canada is still ongoing,the trial in the UK has yet to begin.No agent of the US government has yet been brought to trial for Ruby Ridge or Waco.
I would in fact be the first to lead a screaming mob if the US sent a platoon to Darfur.That situation requires at least a brigade or division,preferably of US Marines.
I haven’t been paid a cent by any group or individual.I am still waiting for my wheelbarrows of cash from the National Rifle Association.If you see it,let me know.
Politically speaking,I am somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun.
The point being-western governments need to have their own house in order before they run off boycotting China over the very things they themselves are doing.Otherwise its not a political statement,merely hypocrisy.
Laird: That’s pretty much what Leith said in the rest of his piece. The Olympic Games is the most overtly political sporting contest there is, and it isn’t those who protest against tyrannical states hosting it who have made it so; it’s the IOC itself. Government competes against government to host the Games. The host government pays for them using taxpayers’ money, and benefits (in its eyes) from the “prestige” of doing so. All the national teams are subsidized by yet more taxpayers’ money, and woe betide any government whose team falls behind its peers in the medals table.
The entire exercise is just a politicians’ pissing contest, and if I were a sportsman I’d want nothing to do with it (I can’t imagine what has got into the heads of the players of those minority sports constantly lobbying the IOC for Olympic status, as if recognition by that corrupt organization conferred any kind of legitimacy).
Having said all that, I quite agree that – as always – national boycotts aren’t the answer. It’s up to individual sportsmen and spectators to follow their own consciences. Imagine… which would be the more satisfying: every British athlete being told he must not attend, or discovering once it’s all over that the 2008 Olympics had the lowest viewing figures ever recorded?
Agreed, Sam. The IOC is as corrupt as any government, and a large part of the problem is the obscene amounts of money the television networks pay it for the right to broadcast these events. If nobody watched, that would change rapidly. Vote with your eyes (and remotes).
Elle, perhaps I was a little bit hasty in lumping you in with Trainor as a troll, but you brought it on yourself.
This whole “We can’t complain ’cause we’re just as bad as they are” stuff is complete crap.
We can, and often do, complain vociferously about our own governments and their many, many, failings, but we can also complain about the infinitely worse failings of the many other countries in which no-one in power even pays lip-service to the notion of individual liberty, and we can debate the legitimacy and utility of any tactics which might or might not help their hapless citizens or adequately express our feelings about them.
Personally, I’m not in favour of boycotts by govenments but I’m willing to give those who are a hearing without screaming ‘You started it’ at them.
Oh, and not intervening in Darfur because you have no legitimate interest and you are busy elsewhere is not the same as using one’s UNSC veto to block attempts to settle the problem or providing arms for the Janjaweed.
Kevin
I am just a blond with a blog and a rifle in the desert.Being called names or being lumped in with others is par for the course-I take my lumps as they come and don’t complain.
Don’t know much-but I do know hypocrisy when I see it.I also know that complaining, complaining vociferously,even slapping a UNSC veto on Sudan is utterly piss poor bovine scatology and does nothing to “help their hapless citizens or adequately express our feelings about them”
That sir requires action-not complaining.Boots and guns on the ground actually stopping massacres.Vociferous complaining and artful sniveling doesn’t cut it.
I would like to see some government with courage and fortitude actually stop sniveling,step up to the plate, and stop the massacres.
The more talk,debate,and complaining that goes on,the more innocent people are killed.
As the US and UK are currently engaged,it would need to be a European Government,one of character,integrity and action.
Are there any such governments available for action-or do they intend to talk about the problem until all the people are killed ?
Elle, you want “boots and guns on the ground”, start a militia and go do it. It’s not the government’s job to spend my tax dollars scouring the world for evil-doers to punish, damsels to rescue and dragons to slay. There may or may not be tactical or strategic reasons for us to be in the middle east (we’re having a good vigorous national debate about that right now), but clearly there are none in Africa. The only proper action by our government is talk and political pressure. Anything else should be the efforts of private organizations.
And giving Sudan the weapons needed to do the foul deeds too: China Sneaks Bombers Into Sudan.
Laird,
I’ll give Blackwater a call and see if they are up to it.
I wasn’t aware that you were a representative for your government,nor that “The only proper action by our government is talk and political pressure”
Personally,I wouldn’t pay a government for talk and political pressure when both are free.
If stopping massacres of innocent people isn’t a good enough reason to be in Africa,what precisely is?
Elle
It’s not Laird’s job to be a representative of his government. In theory, at least, he employs his government to be representatives of him. Kind of like a butler.
I do have sympathy with your desire not to pay governments for talk and political pressure. Sadly, present experience suggests that, rather than being free they actually consume rather a lot of our taxes, once posh offices and conferences in Bali are taken into account.
Laird,
The original Olympics were professional games with bribery, corruption and even drug-use. The winners got fame, wealth and women. It really hasn’t changed.
Ian B,
What’s wrong with showing off? By your definition, doing anything better than someone else is showing off. The whole basis of any kind of free market is therefore showing off. Otherwise, essentially you get any old shit.
These days I often watch TV whilst doing other things. This was a busy day but I sort of caught something on News 24…
I normally watch Sky but when you just need a ultra quick TV fix and Sky is advertising TENA Lady at the time… It’s time for channel 503.
I got the impression that the Olympic flame (now in the UK) was an innovation for the 1936 games. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
It does seem a Nazi-ish touch.
If true then, well, fuck me, I’ve got a lovely Cathedral of Light to show you…
What stuns me was that the next installment was in London in ’48.
Nick, I was saying that showing off shouldn’t be construed as anything other than showing off. Most people tend to find too much showing off rather nauseating, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed.
What I was saying was that if people want to go and show off in China, let them. Then let us judge that vanity for what it is.
Also, there’s a strong correlation between elevation of sports and tyranny. I much prefer a nation who sit at home eating cakes compared to stadia full of preening ubermenschen glorifying the supreme leader, personally. You can always spot a fascist by their obsession with cramming everybody into identical singlets and shorts.
The torch relay was introduced for the 1936 Olympics. The flame itself had already been part of both the ancient and modern games.
Moral authority? What does calling for our tax money (via all manner of sport related expenditure by the state and in particular the Olympics) not to be spent subsidising something that give aid to the Chinese political system have to do with ‘moral authority’?
Hear hear! No one needs to appeal to Caeser in order to say “don’t spend my money on that.” Though I must confess, I’m not even sure what tax is anymore. This evening a friend asked “How much tax do you pay?” When the government tells the utility companies that they won’t get prosecuted for price gouging as long as they hand over a share of the ill gotten gains then what is tax?
The torch relay was introduced for the 1936 Olympics. The flame itself had already been part of both the ancient and modern games.
Need a bit more on this one
So the relay was Nazi Reni Propaganda type stuff,
Looks good on a Newsreel etc.
Which is presumably why They are still doing it.
But the original flame symbolised what?
Endurance? Eternity?
Or was it just lit at the beginning of the games and when it went out …
Well that was the end of the Games.
Kinda like being on a timer switch?
“Moral authority? What does calling for our tax money (via all manner of sport related expenditure by the state and in particular the Olympics) not to be spent subsidising something that give aid to the Chinese political system have to do with ‘moral authority’?”
Everything.
When you tell the Chinese you are boycotting them because they torture,kill and imprison political opponents,they will laugh in your face and say so do you.
When you say they they must let Tibet be free,they will laugh in your face and say you must let Basra be free.
When you tell them to stop killing Sudanese,they will laugh in your face and say “what are you going to do about it?”
If the UK boycotts the Olympics for any of the above reasons,they will laugh in your face,rightly so,and call you hypocrites.So will the rest of the world.
They’ve planned for boycotts already-so that won’t economically harm them,they’ll be laughing all the way to the bank.
For a boycott to be effective,it would have to be for reasons other than listed above and in the article quoted.
You’ve plenty of highly intelligent readers on this board that can offer sound suggestions.
“The Olympics is not about individual athletes; it’s about nations competing against each other.”
No.
“The entire exercise is just a politicians’ pissing contest..”
Yes.
Chinese politicians particularly enjoy pissing on Tibet and Taiwan.
Unfortunately, many Taiwanese athletes will be participating in Beijing this year – that they will be doing so under the name ‘Chinese Taipei’ merely indicates the depth of the delusion about ‘national competition’.
The difference in magnitude between the crimes of the PRC and the crimes of the USA is less important than people seem to think. What matters is that the principles are basically the same*. So, Elle would be right to point to the hypocrisy of western governments should any boycott of the Olympics be enforced (which of course will not happen anyway).
*See Perry’s essay on ‘the new totalitarianism’.
I’m not sure what purpose a boycott would serve. It may make one feel good to say “well, we’ve shown them!”, how is that different than the welfare advocate who wants to spend money on demonstrated failure to show he cares?
How much government money is going into this anyway? In the US, at least, doesn’t the olympic committee paid the bills through brand licensing and TV deals? I guess for BBC watchers it’s different.
I thought that was the UK Government you were describing…..
The silliness about “How dare you condemn the ChiComs because your government killed some nutjob in Idaho” is just that.
Yes, Ruby Ridge was a tragedy. In particular, it was a tragedy with a partial explanation that most people with a dog in that fight don’t want to hear, which took place when I was in high school.
The entire world is degrees of good and bad. There is no Galt’s Gulch where we can live in total purity, never needing to compromise, never having our precious bodily fluids contaminated, etc. At least, I’ve never gotten my invitation. (“And you pig bastards won’t be invited either” I can almost hear on the breeze)
I don’t know if my response to the Olympics could properly be called a “boycott” since I wasn’t planning on watching anyway. I did write a letter to my congressgoof asking how much taxpayer money was being spent on making the murderers of Tienanmen Square look good, but I never hold my breath waiting for a straight answer from him.
You have to hand it to the French
they do give good street!
The Olympic flame has been extinguished twice in Paris in the face of protestors.
It has been put on a bus apparently!
Next in the relay will probably be a Taxi and then a scooter.