…All the wonderful tools of liberty. But… but… I see not a single example of that German-Swiss engineering marvel, the SIG-226, as featured on this blog’s masthead!
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And one of the things I really like across the Atlantic is…February 4th, 2008 |
 26 comments to And one of the things I really like across the Atlantic is… |
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we are even able to defend ourselves against aircraft
anzio 20mm rifle(Link)
I never understood the fascination with Glock. Too much plastic. Guns should be made of metal. Perhaps that just blows my cover as an official Old Guy?
My favorite piece is my SIG P229 .40. Reliable, metal, and feels just right in my hand. A little top-heavy compared to the P226, but the P226 was just a shade large on my own small frame. Just a bit more difficult to conceal.
Anyway, I second the thought on SIG. Fine weapons. I think I need another.
Colt 1911A1
Blah. The only military weapons were a pseudo-1911 made by Slick and Worthless, and a commie carbine. As Perry notes, not a single Sig. (The P226 is one hell of a piece of steel -I have about 20K rounds through mine- although the next time you sit in Santa’s lap you might ask him for some night sights.) Nor a single Garand, or the degenerate Garand called M-14.
They had a damn Hi-Point, but did not have the service rifle designed by a Stoner.
Overpriced. There are plenty of other models that do the job just as well or even better.
I’ll have to go with vinegar joe on this one. 😉
CZ75BD
CZ 75BD is a nice piece of kit and would be my second choice after the SIG 226 for an every day ‘business’ weapon… if only it came in 40 rather than 9mm
SIGs are better than Glocks.
I am surprised the lady thought the SKS carbine kicked hard, though I accept that she is but a girl. She should steer clear of a .303 Lee Enfield is all I’m saying.
If she wants a shotgun, she will never regret buying a Remington 870, or, if she can find one, a Browning Auto 5.
I agree but it is really just a matter of personal preference and personal ‘ergonomics’ as both are high-end quality weapons. I find a SIG has everything in the ‘right place’ for me and I can reload one in the blink of an eye… and psychologically I cannot convince myself a Glock is safe, even though I know people who have used them for years with nary an ND.
The reason you can’t convince yourself is that the bloody things are not safe. I cannot accept the security afforded by a wanky little “safety catch” on the trigger blade of a semi-cocked pistol. It baffles me that the damned things ever got past the various official bodies that are meant to certify these things. Herr Glock can’t have given all of them a drink can he? Yet police departments love them, even though they would have kittens at the thought of a properly cocked and locked 1911. A common cause of an AD on a Glock (and I call it an AD because I really think the design is to blame) comes when a pistol is reholstered. If the trigger catches on the holster’s thumb piece, it automatically disengages the “safety catch” and the piece discharges. I hate the nasty plasticky pieces of shit.
That’s because you’re still expecting the trigger safety to do something that it wasn’t designed for. All it is, is a device to prevent the weapon from discharging when the trigger is brushed from the side. And then there’s a drop safety (disengaged when trigger is pulled, I think it’s part of the transfer bar but I don’t know Glock internals all that well.) The gun won’t protect users from their own stupidity.
Neither will the SIG-Sauer so beloved of Perry, me, and others. Again, no manual safety devices. They all disengage when the trigger is pulled.
Neither will the revolvers replaced by the Glocks. Again, no manual safeties.
The reason guns go off when reholstered is because the stupid prats still have their fingers on the damn triggers.
I suspect that the reason that Perry thought the Glock unsafe was due to the “kaBOOM” problem they had in the 1990’s. The .40 barrels (already a high-pressure cartridge relative to 9 or .45) did not always fully support the cartridge casing when chambered. IIRC, the Model 23 was especially prone to problems here. Glock was just using a thinner-than-normal safety margin.
As for some police departments liking some guns over others: departments that standardize and issue usually have criteria other than actual merit. Price is always a factor, as are other less-relevant factors. Remember the HUD lawsuit back in the 1990’s? S&W agreed to settle the lawsuit by making their stuff less-available to the public in exchange for getting preference in certain police procurement contracts. Actually, that was almost the death of S&W: their semis are garbage and few or no departments were willing to issue crap guns in order to support a Federal gun control effort.
BTW, most departments in my area won’t have a problem with 1911’s as long as there hasn’t really been any internal modifications or grips with Punisher skulls or Hello Kitty[1] on them. I had a guy show up with gay pride rainbow-and-pink-triangle grips on his once at the range. I think he was messing with me, although I should have asked him to join me for a mojito or a cosmotini after the qual session.
[1] Yes, there are such things. It’s on the same site as the Kalashnikitty, a WASR (Romanian AK-47) anodized in pink with Hello Kitty on the stock, for only three times what the underlying rifle is worth.
No, I was referring to the safety design, but just to clarify, I do not in fact truly believe the Glock is unsafe, I don’t want to use it myself because I do not feel it is safe (i.e. in a non-rational intuitive look-n-feely kind of way).
I just do not like the design, yet I have chums whose firearms related smarts I respect deeply who have used them for years safely and effectively. I just personally like the more positive and visible hammer drop approach used by the SIG.
And just to pre-empt the 1911 aficionados, I also have very sound reasons for not liking the ‘last word in positive’ cocked-and-locked approach.
My very favorite part of ever doing a gun post is the plethora of gun snobs it pulls out of the woodwork.
John K, poppet…the sodding SKS DOES kick hard, because it’s a bloody 39mm long shell throwing the bullet out the front end.
And Sigs are considered better than Glocks by Sig owners who spent roughly three times what Glock owners did. It’s called “rationalization,” sweetie.
There, you were condescending to me and I was condescending in return. I pronounce us even.
I had that reaction the first time I flew on a DC-10. It just really felt wrong. Shortly later one of them (same airline, same route loop, likely the same plane) lost an engine on take off. Like, it fell off and the plane crashed. Intuitions can be very good even though the way we rationalize them to ourselves can be utterly bogus. In my case with the DC-10, I noticed a lot of little non-safety related things that looked cheaply and stupidly designed. I suspect I projected that observation into the invisible guts where things really matter.
Okay, despite my determined pro-gun stance on the blog, I best not say the last time I actually fired one. The Beretta 92 was very popular last time I payed any attention. How do they compare? In this category, if price was an issue, which would you guys choose?
All you’re really saying is that the Glock goes off when the trigger is pulled. Of course it does. The problem is that it is little more than a single action auto with a slightly heavy trigger pull and no safety catch. I would not consider a 1911 with no safety catch a safe gun, and I don’t think the Glock is safe either.
Indeed not. Typically, the holster’s thumb break catches the Glock’s trigger. That would not happen if the finger was on the trigger. It might actually be safer to holster a Glock with the finger on the trigger than not!
It is, I grant you, fashionable with police bureaucrats, for reasons I cannot fathom. In Britain in the 1980’s, armed police usually had S&W Model 10s and Remington 870s. Now they have Glocks and HK MP5s. Why? As far as I can see, because that’s what you guys have. I think I’d prefer the revolver and the shotgun.
All I said was that if you have trouble with a 39mm round, steer clear of a 51mm or similar. But do get an Auto 5 if you can, the long recoil system is very easy on the shoulder, and anything designed by John Browning is worth having. He even throws in a safety catch.
perry, cz75 comes in .40 (which I’m not a fan of) but I was talking to a guy who bought a .357 sig barrel from barsto for his .40 cz so there ya go
Is the SIG-Sauer a safe gun? It does not have a manual safety. Nor do most (all?) DA revolvers. And most H&K USP’s are carried decocked and unlocked. (If they’re a variant to even have a safety installed. It’s been a while. We’ve been discouraging H&K here ever since their customer support department has proven to have the worth of breasts on a boar hog.)
Anyway, is the 1911 actually designed to be drop-safe? I know that all of the other semis I’ve named are.
There’s a reholstering technique. It involves indexing the finger along the frame to ‘sweep’ the break out of the way. It’s instinctive for a trained shooter, since it’s the exact same index that we teach to keep people’s fingers outside of the trigger guard when it doesn’t actually need to be on the trigger.
A shotgun is not a BAD choice for CQB, assuming proper load selection. When I first came on, I thought that they were the cat’s meow, actually. I’ve since, um, evolved to be a huge fan of the short-barreled AR-15 carbine.
Outside of sidearms, everybody does. I’ve never fired an Auto 5, but I do have some experience with JMB’s inventions. I used to carry a 1911 before deciding that I didn’t trust a manual safety quite as much. (And here we are going in this vicious circle again…)
Perry,
I stand corrected. I’ve owned them before. I just thought that the Fantastic Plastic’s grip felt “funny.” Nothing I can specifically point to, but it did not point instinctively for me. To be fair, for the people here who carry them, they work well enough.
Beretta 92? That’s back in the old days, but now I think I know which movies you were watching. (It’s okay, I was watching the same ones)
If I needed only one pistol, wanted concealment to be an option, and didn’t want to shell out for a SIG, I’d probably go Glock. Either the compact or subcompact 9mm models, 19 or 26 respectively. Used, good condition, they typically run $400 in my area but shopping around might turn one up for less.
I’m not a Beretta fan at all. I think they put the decocking lever in the wrong place: up on the slide is awkward. SIG and some HK USP variants put it right under the thumb where IMHO it belongs. I’ve also heard complaints that Berettas don’t age well, although the average shooter probably won’t take a gun to the 15K rounds where Berettas start having fatigue problems, cracked locking blocks, etc.
That being said, if you tried it before and it worked for you then, that’s where I’d start now.
Double action autos or revolvers are safer than the Glock, just because of the trigger pressure needed to fire them. Single action autos are safer than the Glock because they all have at least one safety catch. I think the Glock is uniquely unsafe because it is is virtually single action, but has no safety other than the little blade mounted on the trigger. This means that anything catching the trigger by definition also disables the safety. It makes no sense to me. I’d be a lot happier about Glocks if they just had a thumb safety.
I agree with you. The British cops have been having this sort of AD because they are, on the whole, badly trained. They fire about 400 rounds a year and call themselves marksmen. And of course, they cannot practice when off duty because they cannot own a private handgun. But given that they are not well trained, I would argue that is even less reason to give them Glocks, I would have stuck with revolvers.
I doubt a .223 fired from a 14″ barrel has quite the stopping power of an ounce of lead, but whatever floats your boat.
True about the 92. The early models, and some Taurus clones, had a proper safety on the frame under the thumb, but this was later chaged to a frame mounted decocker cum safety. For some reason Europeans have always preferred frame mounted safeties, I don’t know why because they are not as useful. Anyway, the Beretta 92 is too fat because of its Walther type locking wedge, and there is no way of changing that. It’s not a good concealment piece.
Sig 226 is where it’s at, although it’s a little too large for good concealed-carry.
John K,
I tried an experiment. I borrowed two co-workers. Both carry full-size Glocks. One in a Safariland 070 SSIII holster (triple retention) and one in a Safariland 200 “Top Gun” holster (straight draw and thumb break only). I unloaded each weapon in turn and repetitively unholstered and reholstered each about 150 times. I couldn’t get the break caught inside the trigger guard even once on either holster.
If you personally witnessed such an accidental discharge, I’d love to hear the details. If you got it second hand, then with all due respect, the person who told you may be mistaken as to where his finger is or may be, um, not entirely correct.
400 rounds per year is unacceptable. That’s an okay month IMHO.
And European designers do a lot of weird things. If you’ve compared the placement of the magazine catch on SIGs made for the US market vs. for Europe, the US puts it right next to the thumb (where it’s accessable, like the decocker) while the the Euro model puts it in the butt, where it takes extra motions to exchange magazines. I don’t think SIG is the only maker to do that either.
Sunfish:
Good experiment, your co-workers sound like patient types.
As a British serf, I am no longer allowed to observe anything to do with handguns. There was a rash of these Glock AD’s reported a couple or so years back amongst the British police, which were blamed on the trigger catching on the holster. I am coming round to your way of thinking, it may well have been the officer’s finger which caught the trigger, but it was easier to blame the holster. I also agree that 400 rounds a year is way too little practice, but that’s all they get, and as I said, even the police don’t get to own handguns for private target practice in Britain (not Northern Ireland, just the mainland). I feel the combination of inadequate training and the Glock is particularly unfortunate, and personally would have made them keep revolvers.
You have to remember that in Britain the armed police are a reactive force, they are called in when an ordinary unarmed copper is faced with armed criminals. Thus they almost always arrive too late to be of any use, so what they carry is almost irrelevant. A double action revolver would be safer all round, but it’s just not sexy anymore. Cops get Glocks, it’s as simple as that.
You are right about the European placement of magazine catches. I think that they are placed on the butt so that the user can pull out the magazine rather than drop it out. This way he keeps hold of the mag, which can be saved for future use. The powers that be don’t like the thought of officers losing magazines, they cost money you know. It’s just doctrine, the bureaucrats are more concerned about a lost mag than a quick mag change. I’m sure it makes sense to them, if no-one else.
They must be. They put up with me, after all.
Is NI more civilized about firearms ownership? I know that the PSNI has been known to arm “regular” police officers rather than leaving it to specialists, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything either.
I’ll have to cut this short. Otherwise, I might start ranting on about Home Secretaries and Chief Cons generally being dumber than a sack of hammers, and I’ve already posted that rant this month.
I wouldn’t say that NI is more civilised about firearms ownership per se, for instance both air guns and shotguns come under the full rigours of section 1 control in NI. However, because of the Troubles, handgun ownership was not banned in NI, largely I feel because about 8,000 people own handguns there for personal protection, quite a large percentage out of a population of 1.5 million. Obviously these people need ranges to practice on, as do PSNI officers who do, of course, take their pistols home with them. So there was simply no momentum behind a handgun ban in NI. It is still possible to own handguns there purely for target shooting, though I believe the guns have to be stored at the range rather than taken home. This was similar to the proposal made by Lord Cullen after Dunblane, but which was ignored by the vicious scum who call themselves politicians in this country.
In the context of the UK and Europe, that’s civilized. It’s rare that I hear of any other place in the Anglosphere that even recognizes a right of self-defense.
Although it may also be an Irish thing. As I understand it, the Republic has at least limited provisions for private citizens to actually carry guns for self-protection. Even if it’s locked down and restricted to a degree that I would expect from NYC or southern New England or Hawaii, that such a right is recognized at all is a sign of hope.
You mention that you think the ownership was due to the Troubles. Were the 8000 people you mentioned likely assassination targets, or were the Troubles used as an excuse for a greater crime problem?
Hazel Stone,
Is it one particular SKS that’s kicking you too hard, or does that happen with all of the ones you’ve fired? I don’t normally think of 7.62×39 as an especially heavy cartridge, but I can sort of see one particular rifle having a mechanical flaw that makes it kick harder than an otherwise-identical in-spec rifle.
More like 1.5 times, if even that. I do think one is better than the other, and I’ve owned both. (Don’t have any Glocks any more. I needed the money for optics for my AR: two Glocks equalled one ACOG at the time.)
AIM and CDNN (google ’em) are both selling German police trade-in Sig 225/p6 models, from $260 to $350 depending on condition. My new ‘very good to excellent’ is winging it’s way toward me as we speak. If you order from AIM now expect to wait a few weeks/month for delivery. Good bang for the buck, if you’ll pardon the pun.