Driving through Adelaide this morning, I idly turned my radio on, not something I normally do. But I happened to hear the South Australian police minister explaining to a couple of bemused hosts that the government here had made the possession of crossbows illegal. The radio hosts were bemused, not so much because of yet another assault on the tattered remains of Australian liberty, but because crossbows hardly seem like a problem hereabouts. It is not like you see gangs of youths roaming the streets with crossbows, after all.
The minister explained that there was a case in New South Wales a few years back and the government was keen to clear up ‘loose ends’. Apparently you can still possess one if you can prove you have a ‘lawful use’ for it; the Australian notion of liberty is that you are free as long as you enjoy the good grace of the powers that be.
Youths are hardly likely to be carrying crossbows, but they may well be carrying knives. I read this morning’s Daily Telegraph and came across an op-ed calling for a crackdown on knives, which are becoming a serious problem. Going by some of the comments to that op-ed, it’s a fairly popular idea with the ‘Torygraph’s’ readers as well. To be fair, Shaun Bailey does point the finger at the weakness of the criminal justice system, which is causing young people to take to knife ownership with such enthusiasm.
However, he also blames ‘culture’, which sounds to me like the old leftist excuse whenever someone did the wrong thing; that ‘society is to blame’.
We need to look at the material that youngsters have rammed down their throats every day. Magazines such as Zoo, Nuts and MaxPower. Programmes and films such as World Wrestling Entertainment, Get Rich or Die Trying, and MTV, City Gangster flicks and the whole music culture in general. If we want our youngsters to stop being violent, we need to stop showing them violent material, especially so early in their development. As a colleague said to me, the music industry is “peddling death to our children”.
I am certainly no expert on ‘popular culture’, but I would question the idea that ‘culture’ forces anything on young people. Cultural industries like magazines and music and television programs really are businesses just like any others; they have to respond to what the market is asking for. The point is that cultural industries are a lagging indicator, not a leading one.
What would change the culture is a change in society so that perpetrators of criminal behaviours face the full consequence of their actions; I suspect that would have a far greater impact on ‘youth culture’ then any ‘initiative’ to meddle with our culture; or to take away from lawful citizens their legitimate right to defend themselves. Which is where sloppy thinking like Shaun Bailey’s op-ed will take us to.
Is it still illegal in South Australia to drive with your elbow out of the car window? We were assured that it was when we lived there.
They carry knives because people keep getting stabbed. It’s just common sense to, if you can’t or won’t get a gun, as in the UK.
Ah but if it is illegal to own a knife people will not own them. After all murderers may not be concerned with the law against murder but they will always obey the regulations against firearm and knife ownership.
Sorry for the sarcasm.
Of course all these regulations do is disarm law abiding folk and give a monopoly of weapons to criminals (and the state of course).
“Is it still illegal in South Australia to drive with your elbow out of the car window? We were assured that it was when we lived there.”
I couldn’t say for sure, but probably; everything else is verboten hereabouts. I’m probably in breach of some regulation now telling you this.
What Paul Marks says…..also I have to say that sarcasm is wasted, as is irony, on our ‘showers’-that-be. We live in an era of suicidal moral decline, a culture of blame & victimhood, a society of envy & rights without responsiblities. The DT article & its comments reflect an almost total acknowledgment of this deadly state of affairs which, seemingly, now runs deep in Western ‘Culcher’ Such a society stands little chance of survival when coupled, unfortunately, with a military which is little better and (I read comment from a broad spectrum) is devoid of discipline of the most basic kind. On top of all this, our reaction is just to throw up our hands & say it’s not our fault.
Our (many) enemies are rubbing their hands with glee. It’s not AK 47s, knives & crossbows(!!!!!!!?)……..I was trained to kill with a pencil, if necessary…….It is a moral decline which pervades the total fabric of a very sick society.
In seldom moments of despair, I sometimes ask myself if we, with our laissez-faire stupidity, actually deserve to survive.
If I had it my way, those consequences would include a high likelyhood of being shot dead by a passer-by. Guns make a much better self defense weapon than knives.
Thugs (knife carrying or otherwise) should be *afraid* of the average citizen. The only problem with “today’s society” is that they’re not.
Dear Rob Fisher;
Only thugs are allowed to have guns in the Septic Isle.
If the recently & tragically murdered policewoman had been able to reach for her Glock instead of her kitchen-knife she would still be alive to tell the tale….although she would also be fired & have to face an endless investigation if she had (hopefully & accurately) used it.
Dear god……….what depths have we plumbed.
“Guns make a much better self defense weapon than knives.”
Oh yeah? Tell that to the ex-marine in Atlanta who was attacked by five muggers, two with guns, one with brass knuckles. He whipped out his trusty pocket knife and fought the attackers off, killing one in the process.
If it was in England he’d probably have been arrested.
Carrying knives are not the issue. A knife carried does not kill anyone, only a knife used. The WPC was killed with her own knife from her kitchen – the irony has been lost in all this amnesty business.
Use of a knife on the torso and limbs should be attempted murder. Gangsters used to cut each other in clearly non-life-threatening ways. The Turks stab in the buttocks to cause pain, humiliation but is unlikely to be fatal. Now, however, we have people actually stabbing others in the back, chest, thigh with fatal results.
The law should be a long sentence of hard labour (and no X-boxes, visits to burial of pet dog or even leave to attend pre-booked holidays to Bulgaria). This should be taught to kids at school, if the feckless parents are not capable.
To argue that ‘culture’ has no effect on behavior, is to ignore the billion of dollars, euros, yen etc that are spent every year on advertising. If Coca Cola wants to use music, video, imagery etc to influence your drinking (and moree important your spending) behavior why should gangster rappers be any different?
On the road I live on, I estimate at least half of the homes are defended with guns. But who knows which ones? Certainly not would be thieves. I don’t know of any break-in ever of an occupied home around here.
The simple fact of someone breaking into a home here, knowing it is occupied, means that a human being is the target of the break-in. These criminals are treated by society and usually the courts not as would-be thieves, but as violent criminals. No other kind of criminal would face such a high probability of violent death for mere theft.
TimC:
FECKLESS……….that’s the word I’ve been looking for; If that doesn’t describe our society then John Prescott is lovely.
Our mind-boggling lethargy will, literally, be the death of us. I fear that the rot is so deep & pervasive that only a miracle (somebody, or group, with real guts & imagination) can save us.
“Thugs (knife carrying or otherwise) should be *afraid* of the average citizen. The only problem with “today’s society” is that they’re not.”
No. Burglars are afraid of the average citizen, which is why they try to burgle when no-one’s about, and leg it if they are spotted. The whole point of thugs is that they aren’t afraid.
People in places where guns are freely available still get robbed a lot. Less than Britain, sure, but still a lot more than, in, say, non-gun-owning Japan.
The ability to arm yourself is fairly irrelevant. The nature of the society, and the percentage of people willing to mug other people is relevant.
Spot on, J
Two points:
My guess is that any man over the age of about 40 carried a sheath knife as a matter of course from the age of about 10. It was just the standard piece of kit you used to carve your name on trees and so forth. Now, I suppose, my parents would risk “the social” taking me away for such an offence. Progress? I think not.
Second, the impact of culture. Remember, the “music industry’s” greatest achievement has been to sell music to people who don’t like it. In that respect, it’s an “anti-music industry.” If music soothes the soul of the savage beast, there seems little reason not to suspect that anti-music does the opposite.
Completely off-topic. Deleted.
And it really doesn’t work very well at all. Advertising is one of the greatest cases of collective delusion since… well… ever. I think the 90% of the advertising industry is a complete waste of time and money.
Bullshit.
In the last twenty plus years my friends and acquantences have been robbed twice that I know of. One was a construction site robbery on Christmas Eve. One was a gun theft that had some inside information.
When I lived in much more heavily regulated Illinois, home breakins were more common but still rare enough to warrant a newspaper story.
Virtually all of the high crime areas in the US have strong gun laws. That is, in my opinion, why they are high crime.
Easy to see where this is going… the statists end up using force to protect “our” children from harmful influences (in other words anything they disapprove of), just like nice Mr. Trotsky always wanted.
And don’t you just love that “our”? Sorry fellah but my children are my children, not “ours”.
I take it you’re not a woman then. The ability to defend myself from being robbed or raped is real relevent to me, but then you’re probably just another middle class guy who doesn’t actually have to worry about this because you live somewhere nice.
BTW, J said ‘robbery’ so I assume he means person on person crime. I don’t know of any robbery of anyone I know ever except in gun controlled areas. My sister was attacked by a guy with a knife in gun banned Chicago.
I challange anyone to find me a high crime area in the US that has ‘shall issue’ ‘concealed carry’ laws.
Virtually all of the high crime areas in the US have strong gun laws. That is, in my opinion, why they are high crime.
I suspect there’s a joint cause. If you can point to a number of big cities with low crime and loose gun controls, and some wealthy suburban areas (not adjacent to slums) with high crime and tight gun controls, then my alternative theory has no merit.
Guy, very upscale Madison has been having problems of late with a gang (gangs) of youths beating and robbing people who are on their way home late at night. They look for the weakest victims. Usually people who have been drinking. This is on the isthmus which is very expensive real estate and generally very nice area. Suburbs are somewhat protected because people are in cars.
What’s particularly interesting about the latest British moral panic, is the coincidence with the Home Office being in terrible trouble and needing a lawnorder distraction.
It appears to be useless in the current climate to point out that, in no particular order:
1. Stabbing someone or threatening them with a knife has been illegal for ever.
2. The law has quite recently been changed to make the established position on ‘offensive weapons’ even more offensive to liberty and self-defense. By this very government in fact. It doesn’t seem to have made a positive difference.
3. No thug – let alone a group of thugs – willing to stab someone for reasons of respec’ ((R) applied for by Blair Enterprises) is going to take any notice of either 1 or 2. Nevermind any arbitrary new rule the Home Secretary cares to enact. Even if they get to hear about it;
4. One might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. If carrying a knife carries a sentence comparable to using it, then you’d better hope the fact doesn’t become known to the tough kids. The rational criminal reaction is to use knives more, not carry them less.
Harsh sentences will do nothing. Unless there is a chance of getting caught, and there isn’t, no criminal will consider what happens if they are. What will happen is that innocent people that have no intention of initiating violence will get punished for buying cutlery and cooking implements, or going out camping and fishing.
We saw this before with the hand guns ban in the UK, it made no difference to criminals but hurt the innocent.
chris,
Very true. An interesting anonomy in the USA demonstrates this. Death penalty states on average have a higher percentage of crimes committed that are eligible for it than occur in states for which the same crime does not carry a death penalty.
Go figure. I’m one of those gun supporters that doesn’t believe the government is competent to administer a death penalty.
Actually it already has happened with knives in the UK. Note the date of this story.
I suggest that just as there is a BNP panic season, to get the vote out at the beginning of May, so there is a violence panic season, which opens on the Spring Bank Holidays, and closes on the August Bank Holiday, because that’s when groups of people are out in the street to be attacked by each other – or by dangerous dogs.
… And when schools and colleges are on holiday.
Well, no. Someone who is in jail for 10 years isn’t out committing crimes during those 10 years.
Whether these kinds of sentences have a deterrent effect is debatable, but there can be no doubt they have a prophylactic effect.
You’d be surprised what people carry for self-defence.
RC Dean,
I think there is a benefit of long sentences in keeping them off of the street. But it’s clear that if there are more murders occuring where the perpetrators are being executed, then the only deterence to an amoral person is a ‘hard’ target.
I’ll bet that so called “Rocket Launcher” was an empty LAW tube.
For the uninitiated the LAW is a 66mm Light Anti-armor Weapon (LAW) that is fired from a light aluminum tube.
Once fired, the remaining tube is so much scrap metal.
R C Dean: Putting thugs in the can for a ‘very meaningful’ period of time is, in theory, keeping them off the streets for the equivalent period but it’s like that old schoolboy joke:
Mum. What did you do in school today?
Son: Sex.
Mum: ….and how was it?
Son: UUrgh, theory, theory, theory………..
We have a Home Office that obviously isn’t; a completely flawed PC Judiciary living in cloud-cuckoo land; a very expensive Police Force that doesn’t & a Probationery Service which on should be.
Question: Where does one go from there?
We aren’t alone: I read, the other day, that part of the São Paulo mayhem hinged on the demands of prison inmates for colo(u)r TVs on which to watch the upcoming footie. Small world.
Apparently, it was an M72.
Apparently, it was an M72.
If that was a live launcher then we have a totally stupid PC Plod standing there with an anti tank weapon that has a fairly sizable backblast on launch, with the safety off, pointing at who knows what. Given the wall behind him we can safely assume he was not on an arty range.
Furthermore I was not aware police in the UK recieved training in small arms let alone anti-armor weapons as a regular thing.
Or we have a huge amount of hype over an empty length of aluminum tube. They are single shot weapons. Fire and discard.
Given that I do actually give the plod in question the benifit of the doubt then he is holding an inert aluminum tube whose only offensive use at this time would be as a club. Otherwise I think he would have called the bomb squad.
Yes, no knives. I’m sure every hoolagan in the Britian will obey. Just as they obey the laws today. Ban Karate to. Ban sticks. Ban any form of self defense. Yes the criminal element will of course obey and stop their deeds. Surely they won’t manufacture their own weapons. They won’t smuggle weapons in like drugs. They won’t start their own private armies. We all live by rules, except those that don’t.
I’m with Paul. Ban those pointed sticks immediately.
And ban raspberries too. Banana’s are no problem—simply release the tiger.
São Paulo is establishing itself in The Septic Isle.
@ Midwesterner:
I take it you live in Wisconsin. I’ll be doing graduate studies in that part of the country (there or Illinois) starting next year, and I must say gun control is the only qualm I have about moving to Illinois. Being from Alabama, I can relate to the whole “criminals don’t know who’s armed.” Southerners are prone to having multiple guns in multiple places as well. No one tries to start shit where I live, I think, because of that fact of life.
However, it it would be great if Wisconsin had CCW some time next year. The current governor vetoed the last CCW bill and the legislature failed to override it, if I recall. Hopefully y’all will dump his sorry butt for someone who actually cares about the safety of individuals.
Rail, we can only hope. I saw a “Dump Doyle” and concealed carry bumper stickers on a truck today. That’s a good sign. What I’m afraid of is if dems do well nationally, that will reduce the chances of us picking up the very few seats we need to override. Darn we were so close.
Something to keep in mind about Illinois, Wisconsin may have a liberal democrat (US definition) for a governor, but Illinois has a borderline communist.
You’ll like Wisconsin (at least in the summer) if you come here. But keep in mind, we have big brotherite McCarthy conservatives and Lafollette populists counter balanced by one of the strongest libertarian populations. Former governor and Secy HHS Tommy Thompson is pretty much a libertarian with a Republican label.
Before making your final choice, check out the local gun laws. Individual localities can have their own gun laws and the more restrictive they are, as a general rule the more dangerous the area is. Also, knowing them will tell you a lot about the people that live there. End up in the wrong community and you’ll remember that Hillary was from Illinois.
Midwesterner,
Here in the UK, most burgalaries are carried out when the home is occupied.
In the past, the burglar stereotype hopped out the window with your TV or VCR under his arm, but now huge widescreen TVs and cheap DVDs make these items not worth the effort. Far better to threaten the householder with violence, so they give up their credit card and PIN, safe in the knowledge they have no means of defending themselves.
I don’t know if I’d be comfortable with having a gun in the house, however I feel as though I need one, simply because I know (and every burglar knows) that none of my neighbours have one, either.
Jim P
To solve the knife issue we do need to deal with the ultimate cause: The Welfare State.
Dealiing with the symptoms? Well I suspect knife crime is going to be used as a proxy to enable the UK police to restart routine searching. Terrorism is too touchy in regard to the howling Islamic Victimmehdin. Common sense law enforcement does not click with so many people diseducated into imbecility by the UK State sausage factory.
The best thing to do is make sure kids know that if they use a knife on someone their ENTIRE youth and prime of their life will be spent within 4 walls and the will not emerge until they are approaching middle age. Maybe they should wheel one of those “ageing” computer programs to show kids how they will look when they get out of gaol all tobacco stained and drug shrivelled.
Jim P said “I know (and every burglar knows) that none of my neighbours have one, either.”
Do bear in mind that there are around 500000 shotgun licences currently in the UK. They are not particularly difficult to obtain either.
Mike Davies,
Has anybody in the UK ever actually tried using one to protect themselves? (Under your present gun laws?)
How does that work out?
Jim P,
I used to be uncomfortable with the idea of guns being carried around. Particularly since some of those people are quite inept. ‘What if an accident happened?’
I now think about it in two steps.
A. criminals don’t obey laws. (It’s silly how often this needs to be pointed out, isn’t it?) Therefore the people effected by concealed carry laws have good intentions.
B. I drive down roads every day with cars passing the other direction at speeds (if we are both going 65 mph) of 130 mph. These cars are passing me sometimes as little as 5 feet away! How many of those drivers are trying to dial their cell phones, find their cigarettes, tune their radio, pick up a dropped cd, or even eat?
In the big picture of risk, guns are micro league. The only reason we even know accidents happen is because the media makes a big deal when it does and then repeats the same story over and over as often as they can.
If they gave the same degree coverage to vehicle accidents, there isn’t enough time in the day to cover on all of them.
The first case that springs to mind is Tony Martin, a farmer in a remote area who shot and killed a burglar, Mr Martin was imprisoned for manslaughter but only served a couple of years. Other than that I cannot recall of any other cases. For each shotgun licence (which is just that, a licence to hold 1 or 2 shotguns and some cartridges, nothing else) the police visit your home and check the siting of your compulsory secure cabinet. They also give instructions which you must follow on upgrading the security of your home. Perhaps that makes you less likely to be burgled in the first place.
The licence doesn’t entitle you to use or carry a shotgun in a public place, so isn’t relevant in terms of general self defence outside the home. They are really only used by farmers on their own land and clay pigeon hobbyists at a shooting range.
Oh my. I just went out and read about Tony Martin on wikipedia.
Some apparently typical, legally protected and certainly well politically represented UK citizens admit under oath that they conspired to break into an (probably) occupied house. This had happened many times before. The homeowner wakes up to find an unknown number of people who have broken into his house in the middle of the night. Somebody blinds him with a flashlight. He fires. Then HE is sentenced to life in prison for murder! WTF! The guy who got away serves about one and a half years. No need for any appeals there, I guess. After all, the burglar is the good guy.
In most parts of the US, the death of the other home breaker would have been charged against all the conspirators, not their intended victim.
So what does this Tony guy have to do to get out of spending the rest of his earthly days in prison? He has to show that he “suffered paranoid personality disorder specifically directed at anyone intruding into his home”. I can only say it again, WTF? In the UK it is now proof of insanity if finding intruders breaking into your house in the middle of the night causes you to experience trauma.
These two actions alone prove that theft is not just for the government anymore in the UK. It is a legally protected occupation complete with income protection.
Mike, if you can interpret this series of events as “Mr Martin was imprisoned for manslaughter but only served a couple of years.” and believe that the existence of shotgun permits are going to be more than a minuscule deterrent to criminals, I think I understand why there seems to be a problem.
But it all boils down the the stupid or lazy or dishonest or slothful or …. did I already say stupid? But anyway, the socially parasitic voting for the morally and intellectually halt and lame politicians because these turds promise to transfer wealth from the productive sector of society to the unproductive sector. I notice how the least intellectually capable have taken over the previously elite colleges so that bright young minds can more easily be turned into non-thinking automatons.
I submit that the time has arrived that the only Classical Education that exists anymore is at Christian Bible colleges…. “Come, let us reason together.”
On a very musch related not, check out the “informed opinion” about “knife culure” in Britain: at the goo-goo Guardian and the understanding Observer.
Ugh, disgusting typos- sorry!
Midwesterner, the Tony Martin case is a little more complex than Wikipedia suggests. As I understand it from some regulars who post here, Llamas springs to mind, if he did exactly the same thing in many US states he’d have certainly seen the inside of a courtroom, and probably a cell for manslaughter.
They don’t mention that he shot them with a sawn off shotgun, or that he had previously been in trouble with the police for shots taken at people he claimed were tresspasing.
He was damned for leaving the body outside the house all night; for having a track record of shooting at people and for admitting in court to sleeping fully clothed holding his loaded illegal shotgun.
There have been examples of shotguns used in defence previously, but it is pretty rare. As is, in general terms, violent home invasion. But that’s a deeply unpopular point to make around here.
You know, reading this site you’d think that there were hundreds of cases like John Monkton or that special constable every year.
It is interesting to actually look up the numbers of British police officers killed a year and compare to other countries.
Seeing the inside of a courtroom is fine. But it is the court’s job to enforce the law. And apparently UK law gives life in prison to someone defending their home against a calculated attack.
And taken shots as in ‘fired in the air’ or as ‘how many people has he hit’?
As for leaving the body outside? Moving it is evidence tampering. Sitting next to a dead body and guarding it is pretty dumb. Not to mention making yourself an easy target. So he should have called the cops. But under the circumstances and looking at the outcome, who can blame him for wanting to enjoy a few more hours of liberty before beginning a process he no doubt knew would result in a mandatory life sentence?
And if I’m in a secluded and often broken into farm house with a police department (and legal system) that sides with the robbers, I would be inclined to sleep clothed and armed too. It’s only rational.
Referring to his gun as “his illegal loaded shotgun” looks just a bit gratuitous. It’s “illegal”? Well so is the very concept of self defense in UK. And “loaded”, I should hope so.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of home invasion isn’t violent? You say it’s an unpopular point to make. No wonder! Probably almost everybody here thinks all home invasions are violent. How can robbers threatening people with violence if they try to defend their persons homes and possessions not be violent?
The case may indeed be more complex than Wikipedia suggests, but clearly there is plenty of cause for concern for anyone in the UK who harbors even the slightest inkling of defending themselves, their families and their property.
Darn, I wish this thread was still alive and kicking.
Here is how house breakers are typically handled here in the US. Notice the comment by the police chief.
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/local_story_143223858.html
Thanks to triticale’s blog for the link.