Most folks on holiday like to unwind, relax, and take it easy. This means that tourists are not always the global community’s best behaved citizens. Now, as China increasingly enters the mainstream community of nations, Beijing is worried about the behavior of Chinese abroad.
Chinese tourists have been told by their government to watch their manners on holiday, as behaviour that “merely disgusts” at home might not be tolerated abroad.
Spitting, slurping food and skipping queues are the kind of “bad social graces” some Chinese tourists display while on holiday, the state-run Xinhua news agency said.
“The increasing number of Chinese tourists travelling abroad may be a huge new source of income to destination countries, but that won’t prevent complaints against individuals from reflecting badly on all of China,” the report said.
I much prefer social pressures then state ones to stamp out anti-social behaviour. The more Chinese people see of the world, the less they are likely to indulge in anti-social behaviour. I must confess the sooner people anywhere give up spitting (and chewing gum), the happier I will be, however.
Scott, it’s just not true that the more people see of civilised behaviour, the more they copy it. Well after Singapore had become wealthy beyond anyone’s imaginings a generation before, some were continuing to spit in the street, leading LKY to say they needed laws against it because, “Let’s face it. Our people are crude.” He never minced his words. He made public spitting illegal, and cut down on TB. And also didn’t send tourists reeling against the walls in nausea.
And has anyone here ever been in an Arab country and gone through a queue backwards? It is amazing. You hold your position, yet you end up at the back of the queue.
Sorry, but crude people need to learn how to behave, under penalty.
I am reminded of George Orwell’s commentaries before WWII of the influx of eastern european refugees and its deleterious effects upon bus and train queues. I think its indicative that nations with little to no native notions of individual liberty also tend to have no respect for personal space, no concept of queue ettiquette, or politeness in general.
I think Mike Lorrey might be close to the mark, myself. I invite readers to ponder the link between the decline of personal liberties in the West in the last fifty years and the corresponding decline in manners.
I dunno Scott,
I think the decline of manners in the last fifty years
is more related to the decline of manners in our upper classes, enabled by their ability to evade legal sanction.
In colonial USA, the laws were applied more harshly to you if you were wealthy, because you were supposed to “know better” and set the example for the lower classes.
Today, anyone with money can beat the system (OJ, Fat Teddy Kennedy, any number of other politicos, Hollywood types, etc. ad nauseum). In the past there was a tension between the press and the wealthy. Now the press slavishly curries favour with the elites so as to get access.
The spitting here in China is bad, but to me the slurping is worse. Because what it actually is is chewing with your mouth wide open for all to see, hear, and smell.
And social stigma won’t really work, I think, because anyone who gives them a dirty look for such behavior is not Chinese, and therefore not important enough to regard in any way.
I have to disagree with Uain here. The wealthy have always gotten the soft touch. In colonial america, a wealthy person could avoid militia duty by paying a fine or sending his slave or indentured servant in his stead. Those that did appear generally got officers commissions due to social position to avoid having to mix with the hoi polloi, no matter how many prep schools they got kicked out of or servants they raped. Of course, the Skillings, Kennedies, Rockefellers, etc have produced more gentlemen than not, but as with any population, the bad apples got the media attention.
It has certainly declined here in the US, where once, as was in Britain, the notion that the model behavior of the upper crust was what one emulated and aspired to, no matter how many behaved in reality. However, in the pre-victorian era, it was deemed that good manners did not preclude one from indulging in victimless vices.
That China’s government feels that giving ettiquette lessons to its overseas tourists is going to help its public image is indicative of how hard the Party needs to try to get PR points where it can.
Personally, I think it all started going downhill when they outlawed duelling…. 😉
That’s right – slurping food does not seem to be considered bad manners. The Chinese won’t blow on their soup, however they will slurp air through it to cool it down. Noisy eating is just one of the challenges that makes a Western tourist a bit squeamish. And skipping queues is hardly unique to China amongst the Asian nations, although it is irritating if you’re not assertive and willing to use your elbows to defend your place in the queue.
Spitting is a problem, however I never saw rich, metropolitan people (who would make up the bulk of overseas tourists) spitting, so I think this could be a bit of a strawman. It’s probably a way for the central government to highlight and demonise the habit, which they’d dearly like to suppress – at least for the duration of the Olympic Games, anyway.
I experienced the worst combination of the spit/slurp phenomenon at a modestly priced restaurant in Beijing. A man at a table nearby was not only eating his food disgustingly noisily, but he also had a cough. Which meant, at least once a minute, he would go through the ritual – cough noisily, hack dramatically and expectorate onto the floor. I couldn’t finish my dinner – all kind of illiberal thoughts go through your mind at such times, it is true.
Culture shock can create some real comical situations. One I experienced in China involved lines or queuing. The guides indicated that it was okay to nudge you way through a line of people (perpendicular to your direction of travel). In a museum I had to nudge/pass through a line of school children. I couldn’t do it. In the US, usually a gap appears allowing passage. Not in China. You have to nudge. The Chinese guides could move back and forth through the line as if it weren’t there. For me it was an inpenatrable barrier. One guide tried to escort me through and made it across but somehow I didn’t. What can I say? I can’t go around nudging school kids. It’s just not in my programming.
The spitting thing is strange too. I once saw a girl who looked and was dressed like a professional fashion model walk by and hock a lugie that would be the envy of any school boy. She didn’t even break her stride. Sure it was gross, but it was also pretty dam impressive.
“the influx of eastern european refugees and its deleterious effects upon bus and train queues. I think its indicative that nations with little to no native notions of individual liberty also tend to have no respect for personal space, no concept of queue ettiquette, or politeness in general.”
I live in Poland and people here have plenty of experience in maintaining order in lines (which could last for months, literally, in communist times) and respect good, even courtley manners (at least before the mass import of thug-culture and gangster chic from the US). But people simply see no point in waiting in line for buses or trams, and I have to say I agree.
As for spitting on the street, I was in southern Mexico once during the onset of the local rainy season and saw and heard and impressive amount of hocking usually with no consideration of crowd density or final resting place of the phlegm.
After a few days, I felt the need to hock up myself and after some initial hesitation thought “when in Rome…” and hocked up (into the gutter) only to be met with about a dozen stricken Mexican faces who’d looked at me like I’d just kicked a puppy.
My travelling companion who knew the local culture better said they take such behavior for granted among themselves but expect los gringos to be paragons of good behavior.
Sorry, but crude people need to learn how to behave, under penalty.
How very liberal.
Verity: ¨And has anyone here ever been in an Arab country and gone through a queue backwards? It is amazing. You hold your position, yet you end up at the back of the queue.¨
Oh boy, yes! I liked to keep about a 9 inches of space between me and the fellow in the queue ahead of me. But that was always enough for someone to move into the queue right infront.
Infuruating at the time, but quite comical in hindsight.
And we have not even discussed motoring yet. Recently, when I was on a short break to Porto, Portugal with fellow Samizdata contributor Michael Jennings, we were struck by the aggression of the motorists. For example, it is normally good safety practice to leave a big gap between yourself and the motorist in front, just in case the person in front suddenly applies the brakes. And yet time and again, other motorists would overtake to fill up this gap, often leaving a few inches of free space. Madness.
For all that I bemoan some aspects of British life, I think that our motoring manners are still reasonably good compared with those of Continental Europe. I am told that in parts of Asia and India, the motoring standards are terrible, beyond belief, and the same applies to parts of Latin America. Maybe motoring etiquette is an Anglosphere thing.
French drivers are incredibly aggressive and rude, but they are good drivers. There are no bad drivers in France: the bad ones get killed.
James,
Let me get this right. They go to all that trouble to Feng-Shui their restaurants and then hockle on the floor. Truly it is the other side of the world…
I was with Verity on taking a hardline on this until… I remembered how outraged I was when I heard a woman in Luton was finded 75quid for throwing a single Cheesy Wotsit out of her car window. Persuing “etiquette crimes” would just mean yet another set of state=funded professional busybodies.
Peer pressure is the only way to tackle this. Unfortunately, in China, you’ve got 1.4 billion peers who have the same bad manners…
Except, spitting spreads diseases like TB and (potentially) Avian Flu, so there is a clear public-health issue here and their asses ought to be nailled to the floor.
Nick M – The woman was fined by a jobsworth. Plus, she wasn’t spreading TB. Public spitting, apart from being disgusting, spreads TB.
apl – Going through a queue backwards in an Arab country, I honestly don’t know how they do it. You defend your place in line, so don’t leave room for another person to slip in front of you, but you never move forward and there are hordes of people walking away from the guichet counting their change. How did they get to the front to complete their transaction? It is a mystery.
Torentin – you don’t get out much, do you? Not much experience of the world? Why do you think you’ve made a killer point by writing “How very liberal”? Do think the Chinese government is normally relaxed and slapdash, but in this instance is being a little harsh?
Johnathan – I find French drivers terrifying. They practically hook their car onto your rear bumper. I had a bleached blonde behind me once, going at around 80 klicks – and – and I am not joking – she was so close I could see her root growth in the rear view mirror. It was a narrow road and I couldn’t pull over to let her overtake me. Some of the most vicious are the grannies. I dreaded seeing a tiny head and two little hands clutching the wheel fiercely. And they routinely, with mad insouciance, overtake on blind curves. I absolutely hated driving in France.
Verity, my most terrifying experience in a car was probably when, many years ago on a family holiday, we were driving along the twisty coast road that goes into St Tropez. Several guys on motorbikes overtook on totally blind corners, missing oncoming traffic by inches. Unbelievable.
I love the big French autoroutes, though. The roads make Britain’s motorways look like dirt tracks by comparison. But my god the locals are fast.
Oh! I’d forgotten the aggression of motorcyclists in France! Yes, they are alarming.
Re; Mike Lorrey point on colonial crime and punishment.
Mike, I agree that the wealthy could buy access that the commoners couldn’t, including a commission in the Continental Army so junior could wear his spiffy new uniform to impress the chicks. This created such a problem of an incompetent officer corps, and bleak prospects to take on the Brits, that it was one reason my distant relative Benedict Arnold, turned against his country.
As for the idea of the wealthy avoiding punishment, I believe that this needs to be considered carefully. I’m sure you are well aware of the efforts over the past decades by nutty academics to re-write American history as driven by idolatrous lust for wealth and women (sounds like Islam). Much specious “research” has been published, recasting the exceptions as the norm.
I toured Colonial Williamsburg some years ago and a professor from the College of William and Mary lectured in the courthouse in full costume. His point was that in those days, the wealthy had to set the standards for fear of revolt by the commoners. Many crimes, such as theft would result in a fine or a stand at the whipping post for a commoner, but could result in a death sentence for the well healed. He did note that the actual sentence was rarely carried out. A pardon usually arrived from the govenor, but the accused was paraded around town with the noose around his neck anyway, before being released.
I read once of a Bishop in England in the late 18th century who was hung for leading a counterfeit ring. In response to calls for clemency, King George wrote back … “he should of known better”.
Verity-
You would appreciate this one. The history bloke above claimed that women, in deference to their femininity, could elect to have their 12 lashes all in one session, or savour their punishment a few lashes per day… 😉
It’s interesting to note how bad aggressive driving has become in the Washington, DC area in recent years. Here’s just one example. For those of you unfamiliar with the US, at many locations we have lanes before intersections clearly marked “left turn only” or “right turn only.” Once upon a time, everybody (OK, maybe an odd exception) followed those rules. It made driving a much more pleasant experience. What is happening today? Extremely aggressive drivers are speeding down these lanes with their turn signals blinking, eventually forcing themselves into the queue. It’s getting quite nasty. There’s lots of additional things aggressive drivers are doing as well.
What are our police doing about this? Well, they are taking out advertisements about how they are cracking down on aggressive driving. What they are really doing is setting up speed traps to enforce speed limits set wildly low in order to collect money for the government. This is just one reason the part of me that’s libertarian really dislikes the police.
I had a friend who was driving down an autobahn (which, for those who don’t know, don’t have speed limits) in the fast lane because he had overtaken someone and was trying to get back into the middle lane, when a BMW with its lights flashing and its horn blowing came up behind him from nowhere.
He put his indicator on to signal that he was trying to get back into the middle lane and the BMW dropped back a little, then surged forward and bumped him, at around 90 mph, dropped back again and did it again and again. My poor friend almost had a heart attack and there was nothing he could do. When he managed to get over, he came off at the next exit and had a nervous breakdown. He stayed off the autobahns for the rest of his time in Germany.
Verity,
Nick M – The woman was fined by a jobsworth. Plus, she wasn’t spreading TB. Public spitting, apart from being disgusting, spreads TB.
Read the whole post next time. I ended by saying:
Except, spitting spreads diseases like TB and (potentially) Avian Flu, so there is a clear public-health issue here and their asses ought to be nailled to the floor.
Uain, the crime of counterfeiting was regarded as much more serious than theft involving falsification of the ‘King’s’ promise to pay. Anyway theft was regarded as a felony and punishable by death.
Finally the Bishop would not have been ‘hung’ but ‘hanged’ and moreover the King would certainly would not have said ‘should OF’ when he meant ‘should HAVE’ (should’ve). This bit of illiteracy seems to be creeping across the Atlantic.
My parents just came back from South Korea on a vacation. I told them of this piece of news, and gained a few more nuggets of information.
The Korean guides told my parents they prefer Singaporean tourists to ones from China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. All of chinese stock, but the ones from the other countries have appallingly bad behaviour, and worse yet, they don’t keep their promises.
Don’t know how true that is(the guide could be trying to butter up her customers), but I’ve seen enough instances of bad behaviour from non-Singaporean chinese to realise just how different we have actually become.
The attitude towards eating loudly and noisily is a case in point. In the past, the norm would be to eat loudly, but in the past twenty years, we have gravitated to anglosphere norms. So the younger Singaporeans are quite distressed when they see overseas chinese come in and eating loudly. It’s almost comical.
Queueing is another example. Chinese from other countries are astounded at the way we Singaporeans would automatically line up at any counter, and they are equally amazed by the fact that we’re willing to let people pass.
Well, there’s a saying in the Sinosphere. Hongkies are ‘wu qing'(merciless), Taiwanese are (IIRC)’wu hui'(without regret), and Singaporeans are ‘wu zhi'(gullible). Because we are, in local parlance, law-by-law folks, so those willing to break the rules can get ahead of us.
TWG
I always found that Singaporeans queued up tidily and nicely. They do cut you out for parking spaces, though.
Guess we’re not at the level we should be, yet. Oops. 🙂
I see the ruling party just got back in, Wobbly. There was a photo of Lee Hsien-Loong on the Beeb’s site and his face looked a little fatter. I hope it was just the camera angle because he is a very handsome man. Has he put on weight?
How is his mother, by the way? She had an incident in London where she had to be flown home to a Singapore hospital for treatment. Did she recover?
The PM should be putting on weight. After all, he’s past middle age! I think he was slimmer in the past due to his cancer. I have no idea about the condition of his mother.
The PAP got 65% of the popular vote. Certainly, they did not endear themselves to Singaporeans when they, through the ministry of information, placed a ban on podcasts, blogging and non-traditional media methods of communication in politicking. That was a mistake, and made them more overbearing when they could not afford to look that way.
65% is normal for the PAP. enough to give them a mandate, but also enough to tell them the electorate is watching.
Oh well, enough OT stuff. Sorry.
TWG,
That’s actually far more on-topic than much of the stuff that gets posted here…
It’s nice to hear from someone from outside the UK, US or Australia… Or Mexico 😉
Personally I would be less concerned about personal eating and sanitary habits of the Chinese people than the’ fact that they live in a (still) pretty much totalitarian regime. From the view of a few Westerners I know living in both Beijing and Shanghai they observe that to the Chinese ‘democracy’ appears to equate to more consumer choice, better stores, better housing and the myriad benefits that open commerce can bring.
However if you dare mention “minzhu” (lit. “people-as-masters”) you are in serious trouble. One friend of mine was quite politely informed that in a country with a Confucian-based ideology, which emphasises ‘harmony and obedience’, it would be impossible to deliver a system of governance, involving totally ‘free’ elections, however desirable that might be.
Julian Taylor – Although I always enjoy your posts, I really don’t think the governance of China is your concern. I don’t like the arrogance of Westerners who think they know what’s best for other societies. China will evolve at its own pace and probably in its own pattern.
Singapore is a very, very good place to live – excellent, transparent justice system, safe streets, very good eduction system, superb health care (Lee Kwan Yew hired a jet to fly his wife back to Singapore when she had a stroke because he thought it better than British medical care) quite a lot of personal freedom but, as Wobbly points out above, some things we take for granted being banned.
Although they do have elections regularly, they live in a well-ordered, very comfortable, quasi-totalitarian state. They don’t welcome comments on their political system by foreigners, but I could live with keeping my mouth shut in return for living in this very fine country.
“Verity the Authoritarian” – it must be Sunday, afterall.
Verity is a frequent commentator on a blog, but would be happy to live in a country with a ban on blogging in exchange for a nice pleasant life and tea at Raffles.
Perhaps in the future they’d be able to put a drug in that tea that would make Verity only think “happy thoughts”. Perhaps, if it’s strong enough, she might even think them about the large number of muslims in Singapore and find true happiness in surrender to the will of Allah.
Although I always enjoy your posts, I really don’t think the governance of China is your concern. I don’t like the arrogance of Westerners who think they know what’s best for other societies. China will evolve at its own pace and probably in its own pattern.
Verity, Julian is entitled to write about what he wants. As a much-travelled and bright guy, I value his comments. We write about affairs in foreign countries all the time, possibly including your neck of the woods: Mexico.
Jonathan – That is a very peculiar post. Julian Taylor, who is obviously literate and worldly, is more than able to defend himself. I value his comments, too, which is why I was interested in what he would say in reply to my post.
Nick M – Thanks for pointing out to people who have discovered Samizdata even later than you that I am a frequent commenter on this blog, apparently in an attempt to wrap yourself in the title “old hand” I’ve been commenting here for over two years.
Could you define “authoritarian”, please? You are much given to emotionally-driven overstatements – apparently because you cannot tolerate dissent, especially from a woman. (Spare us a follow up saying, “My girlfriend fell on the floor laughing when … blah blah blah”.)
What is the point of referring to the “Large number of Muslims in Singapore”. What planet do you live on? Singapore is 80% ethnic Chinese, Malay around 13%, Indian around 8%. Other is mainly permanent resident expats. Total population, around 4.5m. I referred back to my post and do not see where I referred to Muslims (commonly referred to as Malays in SEA).
For your reflection, blogging is not banned in Singapore. It’s not even banned in China – although it’s censored there. That won’t last long as more and more millions get online.
“Tea at Raffles”. I didn’t know you were American. Absolutely no one takes tea at Raffles except American tourists, who mistakenly refer to it as “high tea”.
BTW, did anyone ever show any interest in that EU graphic you sent me asking for my help to get it out and about on the internet? I haven’t seen it anywhere.
No one goes to Raffles at all. It is Disneyfied colonial Singapore for American tourists. When they go to the bars, they all order Singapore Slings, a disgusting, sticky sweet drink that – I am serious – the bartenders pump out of a hose, like gas. They must make up gallons of it at a time. Raffles! What a hoot!
Some twenty years ago in London I had a curious experience with passing through crowds. I was walking along at evening in the vicinity of Kensington Palace and noticed the many nicely dressed people enjoying themselves in the back gardens of old buildings that I took to be expensive offices of some sort. I finally figured out that that it was the Queen’s Garden Party day. As I walked along the river I noticed many of the boats had parties aboard, and most of these parties spilled down the gangways and blocked the sidewalk.
How to pass through without a lot of obsequious pardon-me’s (after all, they’re blocking a public right-of-way)? Since I was as nicely dressed as everyone else I simply walked steadily forward, looking at no one. Magically, a way opened. Studying the groups from the corner of my eye I noticed that no one looked at me, either. But somehow, although I never slackened my pace, I never bumped anyone.
Verity,
Thank you for pointing out your samizdata “seniority”. I shall bear that in mind in the future.
I don’t “tolerate” dissent – how odd! What a strange thing to say. Not least because I suspect I’m a minority voice on samizdata on many things. So are most of the commentariat, that’s the whole point.
For a definition of “authoritarian”, please visit any number of the excellent online dictionaries, or indeed consult the OED or Websters you have on the shelf.
I shall ignore your bizzare and tangential reference to my sexism because, quite frankly, I have no idea what you’re on about.
And I can’t even hold a candle to you wrt “emotionally-driven overstatements”. Certainly not on, for example, the current state of the UK.
You did raise an intersting question though, one which I perhaps should’ve addressed more directly. Exactly what liberties are you prepared to exchange to live in a well-run, well-ordered, econically vibrant society?
PS. Thanks for the advice. I’ll avoid Raffles if I ever go down Singapore way.
What liberties would I forego to live in a safe, comfortable, polite and convenient society where everything works? Well, the liberty not to have a drunken buffoon for a deputy prime minister waltzing drunkenly around his cabinet office with his secretary’s legs round his shoulders. The liberty not to have a prime minister who sells off public positions, like peerages. The right not to have corrupt government departments and public services. The right not to be murdered, raped or burgled. I would sacrifice the right not to wade through inches deep litter of crisp packets, fast food cartons, soft drink cans and beer bottles. I would sacrfice the right to expect to be assaulted in a public street on a Saturday night.
For starters. I would also sacrifice the right not to have to deal with people in public positions who are illiterate and innumerate.
Nick M – There is no “seniority” among commenters on a blog. Only the person/people who own the blog, and possibly some of the official bloggers, in that they can, if they wish, delete comments.
I was pointing out that you wrote, “Verity is a frequent commenter on this blog …” to wrap yourself in some non-existent mantle of “insider”, dismissive of another commenter regarded as a pest. Otherwise, there would have been no point in writing the sentence.
Which quite neatly brings us back to China in a vague way … John Prescott apparently now has a new nickname in Parliament, of “Panda” – in other words he eats shoots and leaves.
Julian Taylor – I had to read your comment three times, but I trusted you …
I see Mark Oaten has said (Link)
that the reason he had “an affair” (“patronised a rent boy who had many other customers; it wasn’t an affair of the heart”) with a rent boy was he was having a “mid-life crisis” – whoahhh, bit of understatement there, old boy!
Starting point: mid-life crisis is s-o-o yesterday.
Mark says he was overwhelmed with all this high profile work, despite no one outside Westminster having heard of him. The one rent-boy in London who could say, “Oi, aren’t you that Mark Oaten, then?” must have. numerically, been similiar to winning the national lottery. One in 50 million.
This is what I hate. Instead of saying, “Look, I’m sorry everyone; I behaved extremely perversely and not only embarrassed my family but caused them horrendous pain and obviously I have no place in public life”, Mark wants ablution. It wasn’t his fault!
What ever happened to the rent boy who performed this service for Mark? Extended his client list, has he?
It is unacceptable to chew gum in public unless you brought enough for everyone.
triticale – it is unacceptable to chew gum at all because some moronic teenage boys were sticking their gum in the hydraulic hinges of the doors of the fast transit system. The trains come every two or three minutes, so if the doors of one train can’t close, every other train in the system is disabled and people are late for work, which tends to send the average, time-keeping Singaporean into a lather.
How great to live in a country where you can disable a system by which thousands of other people get to work because yobs rule supreme.
Singapore identifies a problem and fixes it. I’ll take a country that outlaws the importation of chewing gum and get on the spotlessly clean underground, from a spotlessly clean station where no food or drink is allowed. Compare and contrast with the rolling filthy slums of London’s underground system.
Does anyone, in Singapore’s equatorial heat, miss putting a heel on this almost liquid substance on the sidewalk and walking around with it for the rest of the day? There were no cries of outrage among the Singaporean citizenry, and the opinions of foreigners are of no consequence. So?
triticale, what was your point?
Verity, there is nothing remotely “peculiar” about my post. You told Julian Taylor that he should not presume to comment about the domestic political arrangements of China. I trust he does not take your advice.
You have chosen to live abroad but as we all know, writes a lot about domesic UK affairs. That is fine by me, but I don’t see why a UK national cannot talk about Chinese politics, either. It’s a big country and what happens there will have a broad impact, so it is only logical to want to think about it.
Nick M: the only “senior” people around here are Perry and the other editors, such as Dale Amon. They ultimately decide what gets written here. So don’t let any commenters give you the impression that they have some sort of “seniority”.
Uhm, can we get back on topic?
I have to agree with commenters here that somehow, the social mores of the west just has not sunk deeply enough into our chinese minds. The same entrepeneurial drive that powers the surging chinese economy stems from the same source as our apparent rudeness and lack of consideration for others: our intense selfishness. Do what is best for myself, and to heck with others!
I would note that the government would not have to implement such a ban if in the first place our people were considerate enough to dispose of our waste properly. It only takes a few more steps to the nearest rubbish bin! It’s not like Japan where people carry their trash about with them untiul they get home!
Why such inherent selfishness in the chinese psyche can give rise to the contradiction of prevalent totalitarian/communitarian systems in much of chinese history is something I need to think about when I have more time.
TWG
it is unacceptable to chew gum at all because some moronic teenage boys were sticking their gum in the hydraulic hinges of the doors of the fast transit system. The trains come every two or three minutes, so if the doors of one train can’t close, every other train in the system is disabled and people are late for work, which tends to send the average, time-keeping Singaporean into a lather.
Well to adapt a phrase used often here – gum doesn’t jam doors, people do. So now we have Verity proposing a ban on the public consumption of something legally sold and used because of the use some people make of it. Amazing…
We also have her telling us we should leave other people’s governments alone because it isn’t any of our business when we don’t live there. Incredible…
I think she says she lives in Mexico. I look forward to a long and satisfying silence from her on posts discussing the political situation in al. other countries.
It was the most sure-fire solution. Not the best solution, but the most expedient.
Unfortunately.
TWG
Everyone,
I used the term “seniority” as a jibe…
Within the context of what Verity typed it was an appropriate irony.
I am thoroughly aware that Perry, Adriana and Dale form the (un)holy trinity owning this blog.
Oddly enough, I’m thinking of setting-up on my own – spread the word and all that – but I’m stuck for a name.
Any ideas would be appreciated. It’s gotta fit with a 50s/60s “retro-tech” look (I’ve got a nice Corel chrome script). The focus is dhimmitude, UK governmental idiocy and real technology – space-ships, not windmills.
I’ll still post here, mind…
Johnathan – I had already told Nick M that no one on Samizdata has seniority with the exception of the owners of the blog and the official bloggers, who can at least delete comments. No need to have come in with a jackboot – and if you did, it should have been to twit Nick M. Not me. It was he who introduced the notion of seniority. Such a crude notion would not have occurred to me.
As I said before, Julian Taylor is well capable of defending himself. I only said that how China handles its internal evolution is not up to us. I do not believe in outside interference in the affairs of other countries. The future of China is up to the Chinese people. If Julian wishes to engage me, he is more than able to defend his own position. I will look forward to reading his response.
The difference, Johnathan, is, I am British. I have a British passport. I follow British politics because, guess what! I vote in British elections. I think you will concede the difference.
Ian – if there are a bunch of five or six schoolboys hanging around the door of a train giggling conspiratorially and, when they get off at the station, the doors don’t close, which schoolboy do you charge? Especially if, this being going-to-school time, there were other groups of boys in other carriages.
And they’re long gone by the time other passengers have boarded and it is discovered that the driver can’t close the doors. Would you suggest an identity card and having a photo or thumbprint taken before being allowed to board public transport?
As Wobbly said, the government identified a problem and solved it.
ian – shrill as ever – writes: “So now we have Verity proposing a ban on the public consumption of something legally sold and used because of the use some people make of it. Amazing…”. Yup. Amazing all right. You must be the only person on earth who doesn’t know that chewing gum is illegal in Singapore. You may not enter the country carrying chewing gum. Duh.
After being (wrongly) amazed Ian finds further cause outrage: “We also have her telling us we should leave other people’s governments alone because it isn’t any of our business when we don’t live there. Incredible…”. Wow, so much incredulity in one post. Incredulity and outrage, the two definining characteristics of the Greater British Jobsworth.
Verity,
May I quote:
Thanks for pointing out to people who have discovered Samizdata even later than you that I am a frequent commenter on this blog, apparently in an attempt to wrap yourself in the title “old hand” I’ve been commenting here for over two years.
– Verity
So who brought up the (admittedly irrelevant) point of “seniority”?
I’ll quote further:
I used the term “seniority” as a jibe…<.em>
– Nick M
Oh well, I guess you’re not noted for your sense of humour…
It is clear now that to Verity freedom is freedom to do those things of which she approves – or should it now be ‘freedom’.
You quoted me accurately, thereby proving my point. Thank you. I won’t be responding to further posts on this subject isn’t appropriate.
Verity still doesn’t get it: my problem is that I was struck by the fact that we have a commenter – Verity – lambasting someone for daring to make a comment about the governance of a foreign nation, and that criticism comes from someone who has chosen to leave the UK for nearly a decade. Okay, you have the right to vote, but it still smells of double-standards.
Johnathan Pearce, ever ready to take offence and pick fault with anything I write, says: “I was struck by the fact that we have a commenter – Verity – lambasting someone for daring to make a comment about the governance of a foreign nation,”
I wrote: “Julian Taylor – Although I always enjoy your posts, I really don’t think the governance of China is your concern. ” This is “lambasting”? I hope you’re not serious.
Jonathan equates Julian commenting on China (I’m sorry to drag you into this, Julian!) to me commenting on my native country in my native language. He grudging allows “Ok. You have the right to vote.” I do indeed. It is my birthright. I am British. I take a great interest in news from Britain, which is available to me at precisely the same minute it is available to you.
I haven’t been gone “amost a decade” by the way – although it would make no difference if I had.
Your quarrel with me is absolutely specious and opportunistic. As I said before, Julian Taylor is more than capable of fighting his own corner – if there was even anything to fight about.
I’ll spare your blood pressure and skip your posts from now on.
Verity is always quick with the insults but low on logic. She never responds directly to an argument relying instead on spurious claims of having already dealt with it, on ad hominem attacks or by setting up straw men – and often manages to miss them too.
Attempting any rational discussion with her is a waste of time – while it can be entertaining watching her spin and whirl to avoid adressing the argument it is in the end like trying to nail jelly to the wall.
Verity, I take offence at bullies. I take offence at people who try to shout people down, by claiming they have no business holding a view about X or Y. You are a proverbial Head Girl trying to order people around.
So yes, you do piss me off. I wish you’d go away.