We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
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Travel broadens the mind, or something. 
From a literal reading of this, one would think that the Citibank 24 hour banking centre is only open for six hours a day. However, I suppose the distinction between am and pm is subtle for people who are not used to the English language. In truth the Citibank 24 hour banking centre is open for a full 18 hours a day, which makes perfect sense.
(These photographs are of the Citibank branch just across the square from Brussels Central railway station in Belgium. They have read exactly this way for years, as I first discovered when trying to withdraw money at 1am in 2002).
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Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
We are also a varied group made up of social individualists, classical liberals, whigs, libertarians, extropians, futurists, ‘Porcupines’, Karl Popper fetishists, recovering neo-conservatives, crazed Ayn Rand worshipers, over-caffeinated Virginia Postrel devotees, witty Frédéric Bastiat wannabes, cypherpunks, minarchists, kritarchists and wild-eyed anarcho-capitalists from Britain, North America, Australia and Europe.
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I don’t know how things are now, but in Japan circa 2000 it wasn’t unusual for ATMs to only be open one or two hours longer than the bank itself – which surely defeats the purpose of the thing!
Bit slow with the reciept and card return then Micahael?
A good reason for everyone to just get with the modern world and use the 24-hour clock. If they’d said the place would be closed between 00h00 and 06h00 (or if you insist, 00:00 and 06:00) then there would be no ambiguity. Stick a timezone code on the end and you’re even more secure from misinterpretation.
The French are so far up their own arses, they have adopted the 24 hour clock. So, in broad daylight, when your watch reads 3, it is actually 15. You get an appointment at the dentist and they say 16 hours, so you naturally, assume they had intended 6 and go along intrigued that a French person would be working so late, but no, they meant 4.
The same with names. They have adopted the Chinese way, which comes naturally to the Chinese but still has the French reeling. So Reynard Jean is actually M Reynard.
These foolish, pointless changes serve to give the French a sense of movement in a society that is, at best, moribund.
No Verity, The French invented the 24 hour clock because they cant tell the difference between night and day.
Actually, I wouldn’t demur.
ATMs in Japan are still closed at night and on holidays. I was in Tokyo over New Years (2004/05) and nearly all of the ATMs were closed for the 4-day holiday. Fortunately, there are some Citibank ATMs in Ginza that *ARE* legitimately open 24×365. I find this very bizzare in such a cash-oriented society….
Using 12:00 p.m. is asking for trouble. As, in my experience, is arranging to meet an Englishman at midday, which he will interpret as “round about lunchtime”.
What is it with people who can’t understand the concept of a.m. and p.m.?
The terms “a.m.” and “p.m.” are abbreviations for ante meridiem” and “post meridiem” where “meridiem” is Latin for noon. Therefore they should not be used at noon itself – usually described as, get this, “noon”.
Now if “p.m.” means “after noon” then it is perfectly reasonable for 12 p.m. to mean midnight. It is 12 hours after noon after all.
The usual convention depends on context – so I would expect 12 p.m. to 6 a.m. to be as they have said, 12 midnight to 6 in the morning.
Ideally of course they should never use either “a.m.” or “p.m.” at noon (which is always wrong) and preferably not at midnight, instead using the names direct.
But that would be another rant…
David: I don’t agree. There is such a time as “noon”, but that is just the instant separating the morning for the afternoon. There is also such a time as “12pm”, which is the whole minute following noon, the entirety of which is after noon, which is why the normal convention is to refer to such a time as 12pm. 12am on the other hand is the entire minute following midnight, which is before noon the next day.
I think I would tend to argue that the confusion actually stems from the fact that we do not use zero when dealing with 12 hour times. Rather than going from 11:59 to 0:00 we go from 11:59 to 12:00 and then from 12:59 to 1:00. We actually restart counting at noon or midnight, but then use the old numbers for another hour, before then jumping to the new numbers an hour after they started. This may make some sense in the context of an analogue clock face, but in terms of writing time numerically, it is a sub-optimal way of proceeding.
The 24 hour convention is to genuinely start at zero, which is definitely superior.
(And we won’t even start on the glories of some digits being base ten and other base six within the same number).
Most countries who use the 24-hour clock only do so in print (regardless of media). But no matter how many television guides, train departure times or desktop computers and cell phones say 17:15, almost everyone would still pronounce it “a quarter past five”.
More confusing would probably be that “half six” means 6:30 in English-speaking countries where it tends to mean 5:30 elsewhere.
Actually “English speaking countries” is way too broad. Australians universally say “half past six”. “Half six” is unheard of, to the extent that when I first came to England I had to ask people what they meant. Americans do not in my experience use it either. (I can recall one or two conversations with Americans after that time too, and they agreed with me that they found it odd).
Robert
I just goes to prove thet “elsewhere” is wrong.
Hmmm, why exactly is the place called “24 hour banking”?
Yeah – “half six” doesn’t mean anything in America that I’m aware of. As an exchange student in Germany there were lots of Brits on my hall. The first time I heard it I thought they’d lifted it from German (which says it to mean 5:30) for reasons of fashion completely mysterious. It was only when it became clear from context that they meant “halfway through” rather than “halfway to” that I asked them about it and they explained themselves. I don’t remember ever hearing anyone from Canada say “half six” either, so given Michael’s post I’m tempted to say it’s a UK-only thing.
Noon, mid-day, 12 pm, what the hell.
If you just say 1200 everyone (except, apparently, Americans) knows exactly what you mean.
For once the French are right! (btw, also the Italians).
As for the original topic of the post, I make no doubt there will be an EU regulation forbidding ATM’s to open outside certain hours agreed with the French Trade Unions.
It’ll be implemented Europe-wide, soon. You wait.
Midland Bank/HSBC still hold the record I feel for that sort of incompetence – the HSBC in Sloane Square was, until very recently, still advertising its ATM machines as being available 24 hours per day and you could see that the ATM machines were indeed switched on and working. The only problem was that they are inside the bank!
Michael: Whilst I understand the point you are trying to make about the entire minute following noon, why do you only divide time into a whole number of minutes? Most modern clocks measure time to the second, so that would make noon last all of a second… (And so on).
And in any event, 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. must by the very definition I gave for the terms refer to the same time – namely midnight.
These are nowadays only used in Anglosphere countries like the U.K. and U.S.A., and digital clocks tend to be mass-produced in the Far East where such subtle distinctions are apparently not understood. Unfortunately, they appear to be transmitting their confusion to us.
And incidentally, I believe you mean base 60 (sexagesimal) rather than base 6 and base 10. We got that from the Babylonians, so that’s hardly a new idea either.
If you honestly want to modernise how we tell time, then at least have the decency to do a thorough overhaul. The last people that tried were the French, just after their Revolution, but of course that attempt was as fleeting as time itself…
P.S.
This isn’t meant to be harshly worded, so please don’t read it as such. I think our disagreement over 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. originates in their mistreatment by lousy digital clocks. I’m just fortunate enough to remember my lesson on all this from Junior School.
I had an oven clock once which told the time around midnight thusly:
23:58
23:59
24:00
00:01
00:02
Does anybody think that’s right?
Only a country which felt weakened and declining would adopt military timing for the entire population. It is absolutely pointless – especially as all watches and clocks that aren’t digital show the same time twice a day. If someone asks you for the time at 10 past six in the evening, what normal human being, outside the military, would be motivated to say: “Eighteen ten?” It makes the entire country appear to be about to coordinate watches. Especially as, if you’re an Anglophone, they change it to, “That’s ten past six.” It is just one more poncey thing the French can do to feel special.
David: The argument doesn’t require whole minutes: I just use it for convenience. If the time on the clock starts with a “12” (and it is the middle of the day) then noon has passed, and this is true to any degree of accuracy you like. The moment when the clock changes from 11 to 12 is the same moment when it changes from being before noon to being after noon. There isn’t really any time when it is “noon”. Noon is just that moment that divides the morning (am) from the afternoon (pm).
This convention is widespread, and it predates the invention of digital clocks by a long time. It is just that, a convention, but it is pretty commonly used.
(Oh God. I seem to be having one of these “We are both convinced we are right, and neither are going to budge” arguments. Personally I find these are more enjoyable when held in pubs than on the internet)
Poland (and I think all the other countries of Central/Eastern Europe) uses the 24 hour clock for official purposes (especially written schedules).
After a short period of adjustment (and missing a train or two) I came to prefer it.
In everyday conversation, you can say either. “At nineteen o’clock”. or “At seven (in the evening).”
I also think the UK usage of half-six to mean 6.30 or 18.30 instead of 5.30 or 17.30 to be confusing and annoying (but I learned German usage before hearing British usage in that case).
It’s one of these interferences purely for the sake of interfering so beloved of governments. “I know! Let’s change the tradition of several thousand years of time- telling and go all military for absolutely no reason! Just because it’s different and the rest of the world will follow where France marches!”
Bravo Verity. I stubbornly cling to Fahrenheit temperatures for the same reason: I see no need to change the way I converse about the weather just because France and Jimmy Carter think I should. The Canadians up north can do what they like.
I’m equally peeved about this recent fad of calling “The Ukraine” just “Ukraine.” What’s in a name? I’ve been given no good reason to change my habit – so “The Ukraine” it is.
Joshua, because a lot of ponces feel frightfully smart and cutting edge. It’s like that poncey Tate Modern name. Ooooh, we’re cutting out the definite article! Are we too cute to kiss?
People who promote change for no reason do so in order to prove to the world how modern and confident they are. The definite article is, like, so last century, sweetie!
Shorter Joshua: My car gets five rods to the hogshead and that’s the way I likes it!.
(Not-so)Shorter Verity: First you got your fancy French time telling, and the next thing you’ve got is short skirts and mixed dancing (with touching!) I don’t think I have to say what comes next!
Michael Farris – I don’t think I’m following your post. Are you saying that the 24-hour clock is a modern innovation, which it is not? Or that France’s imposition of the 24-hour clock will somehow encourage very short skirts, which we have had for around 40 years now (the mini came out in the 60s if I’m not mistaken)? If so, the dancing that “all this would lead to” would be the Hully Gully and the Mashed Potato.
Following your logic, this would be an excellent reason for disengaging from the 24-hour clock. I knew it was a stupid idea.
New Shorter Verity: What’s all this fuss I hear about a 24-hour cock?
(with apologies to Emily Latella)
Michael Farris – Get. help.
Actually the 24-hour clock is one more irritating, foolish French affectation. Everyone else kisses friends and acquaintances on the cheek. In France, they planted a mwah! on both cheeks. A few years ago, it escalated it to three kisses. Why? For the same reason as they introduced the 24-hour clock: no reason at all.
I was at a ballet in Paris – I cannot remember which one – and suddenly, in the middle of it, huge insects on stilts – maybe 12′ high – came on stage and walked among the dancers as they continued the ballet. Why? What the bloody hell was the point? There wasn’t one! It was existential!
Old Stephen Wright joke:
I went to a 24-hour store and a man was just locking the front door.
“I thought this was a 24-hour store”, I said.
“It is”, he replied. And then said:
“Not in a row!”
Michael Farris,
Got it. Enjoyed it. Got nostalgic and went and found this(Link).
Not to get in the way of a good rant here, but I haven’t seen am/pm used in England for anything official for a long time. Train,bus, flight timetables etc are 24h clock, mostly because of the very simple reason that things like midday/midnight are distinguishable, and also because the time is always 4 digits (0700 is right, 700 is not) so fits nicely into columns.
(Also phones, computers and digital watches tend to be 24h by default, so Verity… stop ranting, for god sakes.)
Just goes to prove the old adage “One man’s 24 hours is another man’s 18 hours, 11 minutes, 38 seconds” … or something like that
Lascaille – Timetables have been in 24 hr time in Britain for ages. People in Britain and the United States and Australia – in other words, the countries that count – do not make appointments in 24 hour time. They don’t talk in military time time. They don’t look at their non-digital watches and compute that because it is afternoon, 3:30 really means 15:30. It is a silly Froggy affectation.
Lascaille – “Rant” is not defined as something said that opposes your own position on a subject.
Verity, another thing: on modern nautical almanacs showing the tides, one no longer has Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) as the central point of reference, but something called Universal Time. This was apparently done to appease various nations including the French, who were annoyed that the central time zone for all navigation purposes was located in the land of Horatio Nelson.
The French have tried this sort of messing around with calendars and times before, notably in the madness after the beheading of Louis 16. If I recall, the process did not end very nicely.
Still, the new way of writing dates is good, isn’t it? I mean 2005/10/11 and so forth.
Actually I thought Universal Time was predominantly brought in for US submariners, rather than for the French, who were sick of the “Zulu” system of setting their clocks to GMT all the time.
Jonathan – The first time I heard the words Universal Time (which is, let us face it, is of itself a wee bit delusional) was on a broadcast from Australia when I lived in Singapore. I might have known the Froggies were behind it!
Given their pretensions, I would not put anything beyond a country which thought Marcel Marceau had anything to say.
The practice around Milwaukee of referring to ATMs by the name of the local service provider, therefore “Tyme machines”, has suddenly become more nearly universal.
dearieme:
2005-10-11 is a perfectly good way to write the date, in that it’s a much simpler sorting process for computers.
(This doesn’t mean it’s good for every purpose. By the same token, 24-hour time has perfectly good uses, as in schedules, but in conversation everybody uses 12-hour time. The idea that we should dislike 24-hour time simply because it might have been introduced by the French is a bunch of nonsense.)
The only thing more nonsensical than hating it because the French invented it is agreeing to change one’s tried and true habit because of the fashion in France.
I don’t care one way or the other what they do in France. But I do care that English-speaking countries follow their own tradition and not worry too much about “fitting in” with continental Europe.
That was the spirit of my Fahrenheit comment earlier. Fine – in scientific papers and so on there is definitely an advantage to adopting a standard international system. But in day-to-day conversation people should use what is comfortable for them. If 72 has emotional associations as a comfortable temperature and 19 (or whatever it is) does not for me and my friends, then clearly 72 is what we should say: it’s more expressive.
Likewise – if 3pm means something to me, but I have to apply a mental rule to get 15:00, then I should just say “3pm” – at least in casual conversation.
So it’s got nothing to do with spiting the French and everything to do with personal convenience. What I (and Verity and others) cannot understand is why people feel the need to go mucking with this stuff. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, right?
Pointing out that the annoying tendency to invent new systems for no good reason and then insist everyone hypercorrect and adopt them is more prevelant in France (itself an annoying country) than other places is not the same thing as saying we refuse to hypercorrect to spite the French.
Yes, Joshua. Exactly!
Dearieme – “Still, the new way of writing dates is good, isn’t it? I mean 2005/10/11 …”. Yes, it’s probably good for computer use, but to call it “new” is a bit of a stretch! I remember arguing about it with a friend round about 1985 – 20 years ago!