We spent all this money to do things legally and right, and all the sudden it becomes illegal to do something legal
– Nick Mari
The state is not your friend, Nick.
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Off-topic. Deleted. Banned. Get lost
Off-topic. Deleted. Banned. Get lost
Nice people you get commenting here these days.
I think you have now been discovered by moonbats, of the barking variety.
Erm, there were the 60 weapons offences, drug use, driving under the influence, underage drinking…. Did the organiser have permits for those too?
If the police arrest figures are accurate it seems they were in the right place at the right time…
GM
But Gary, what was the probable cause to bust them in the first place? Is any rave itself, even licenced, a legitimate reason for the goons to move in? I think that was the point.
Anyway, as all those “offenses” should be nothing of the sort…
I dunno, Gary. I didn’t see any tanks on the scene, and I’m not feeling real secure, ya know?
Snide – driving under the influence should not be an offence? Underage drinking?
As for your ‘probable cause’ question, you weren’t there, but from my experience, underage drinking and DUI are often, if not generally, self-evident, so probable cause likely doesn’t enter into the question.
It sounds rather as though you are suggesting that the law no longer applies at private functions – that as long as you can keep the police away, anything goes. But functions like this are awash in lawlessness, and not just of the variety which you consider innocent. Assaults, sexual or otherwise, often on minors, all kinds of larcenies, drug dealing and the list goes on. Time we got over the fantasy that ‘raves’ and the like are just happy groups of jolly teens enjoying hypnotic beats in a positive atmosphere of peace and love – they are simply opportunities for criminals to organize their activities more along the lines of the WalMart model.
When girls are drugged and molested at ‘raves’ – what’s your position on the ‘probable cause’ for police to investigate?
llater,
llamas
You gotta to be kidding. Have you ever actually been to a rave? So your answer to snide’s question is “Yeah, just having a rave, even on private land with the OK of the owner, is cause for the state to send in the armed heavies for a fishing expedition”.
Damn, there is more crime of the violent kind at pub closing times in Britain than at most raves I have been to (and that is a lot of raves). Seems this raid was not caused by people complaining that they were being robbed or reports be ‘girls being drugged and molested’ (you really need to read less tabloid press). The only time I ever got molested at a rave was when I threatened to bottle someone if they didn’t 😛
It appears that the vast majority of people there were not arrested. The only ones arrested were the ones that should have been – drug users, drug dealers, people possessing illegal weapons etc. I have no problem with that at all. I also don’t have any problem with brats who are wasted/drunk and or both being arrested if they take on police officers trying to do their job.
Ted – but shutting down a legal enterprise along with arresting the wrongdoers?
Molly – ah, yes, the old standby – ‘I’ve never been a victim of crime, therefore, crime does not exist.’
With your extensive experience, I doubt you can stand there with a straight face and suggest that you’ve never seen open drug dealing and consumption, often by minors, and all sorts of other crime. Just because you consent to be molested (your life, your choice) doesn’t mean everyone does.
In my neck of the woods, we’re just working through a nasty little ‘dance party’ assault case. He just wanted to have his way with her, she wasn’t too keen, so he slipped her just enough of that salty wine to loosen her up. Loosened her up, all right – right into the county morgue.
You’ll note that, in the instant case, while there may have been no complaints of girls being drugged, the police did indeed find a minor female overdosed on MDMA. Quelle surprise! the drug-dealers and -takers didn’t call it in!
I’m pleased that you feel you’ve never been a victim at a rave or similar. But (in the US, at least) the statistics are against you, and I suggest that you might sing a different tune when the odds go against you. I take leave to presume you are an adult, and I therefore have some sympathy for the idea that you can make your own decisions. Good luck to you.
Incidentally, I’m just as much opposed to violence and crime outside pubs at closing time as I am to violence and crime at raves. But neither one excuses the other. I’m sure the folks in the pub were having an excellent time up until 10 minutes before it all went bad.
llater,
llamas
James
Can’t agree it was legal – 250 plus without approval; drugs, weapons found. That takes it outside the legal arena, I’m afraid.
As for the ‘organisers’ claims that they spent thousands on security etc – personally I suspect that this is garbage. If they did, it was a particularly bad investment.
Well lets see, I’ve been raped (not at a rave) twise(unless you count my ex-husband, in which case I have lost count). I have also lost count of how many times I have been burgled (once when I was away at a rave), I have been beaten up and mugged several times by various friendly Geordies (not at a rave) and I usually buy E at the raves I got to, so I really have no problem with, gasp, drug taking! And wot do you have against miners? Some of my best chums used to work down the pits 😛 😛
Ted wrote:
‘As for the ‘organisers’ claims that they spent thousands on security etc – personally I suspect that this is garbage. If they did, it was a particularly bad investment.’
Oh, no, I believe that – no problem. It’s just that their idea of ‘security’, isn’t your idea of ‘security’.
Ask yourself why they would go to that trouble, to secure the venue and try and prevent people from bringing drugs, alcohol and weapons into it?
Could it be so that the only people who had drugs, alcohol and weapons inside the venue – were the organizers?
For a better understanding of how and why ‘raves’ are organized, suggest you Google ‘Shaun Patrick Attwood Arizona’ and read a fascinating account of why raves are organized, the way they are.
llater,
llamas
“Underage drinking?” Sheesh, what is it with Anglos and alcohol? Seems to me if a bunch of kids want to go off to a field somewhere and get shitfaced, that is just fine by me and far preferable to doing so in a town centre.
I will never forget the shocked faces of several American parents when they discovered I was drinking wine at 13 with my folks full knowledge (we had just moved to the USA from Italy). Why is it that the Protestant North has far worse alcohol related problems compared to the Mediterranean countries who have little or no real restriction on ‘underage’ drinking?
Wow, I suppose I shouldn’t be suprised by the profoundly illiberal commenters on here any more, but I still am.
Just because a few raves are organised by dodgy people, this tars the whole phenomenon with a large criminal brush does it? Providing music & dancing for people for straight profit, or for the love of doing it aren’t even possible motivations, are they? Nono, apparently the only possible motive would be to fund illegal drug sales & facilitate rape. Of course.
Llamas, your argument is akin to finding a couple of dodgy pub landlords or club owners & extrapolating from them to suggest that the entire pub/club trade is run for the benefit of organised crime. Totally spurious argument.
Furthermore, I doubt that many more women are molested at raves than at any other large gatherings where significant numbers of people are intoxicated. I utterly condemn that kind of behaviour, but find it suspicious that raves are singled out for media coverage over ‘normal’ pursuits like drinking at your local bar. I suspect you know nothing in particular about the raves, other than choice tidbits you’ve gleaned from the tabloid press.
Snide, I completely agree that most of the ‘offenses’ should be nothing of the sort, with the exception of DUI, as that endangers other peoples lives.
Oh, & since when has it seemed morally correct for the government to criminalise any gathering of over 250 people on private land? Just because they’ve got a law saying that (& we have similar stupid laws here in the UK), doesn’t make it right.
Yup, I agree with pretty much everything A_t says about that
I’d contend that most ‘raves’ and similar are organized with the sale of illegal drugs and/or alcohol and/or related tschotkes as significant objective(s). Or, at the very least, with a complete indifference as to whether these things happen or not.
Why else would they be organized in such a way as to sedulously avoid the attention of – well, of everyone except the target audience?
And show me any successful entertainment promoter – any one will do – who does it ‘for the love of it’. They do it for one thing, and one thing only – money.
Whether or not many of the activities which go on at ‘raves’ should, or should not, be offenses, is something we can argue about long and hard – so long as those committing them are adults. But I don’t suppose that anyone – including the Italians and the Spaniards and the French, whose more-mature attitude to things like minors and alcohol have already been mentioned – is going to seriously argue that the supplying of drugs and alcohol to minors, by complete strangers, and free of any sort of parental supervision, is a good thing that should not be a crime. The French, for example, as mentioned, see controlled drinking by minors as no bad thing, and I don’t disagree. But go into a French bar and try and buy a drink if you’re underage and by yourself. The law is posted right on the wall, and for a reason. France has a terrible problem with alcohol, including underage drinking – and their drinking age is 16. Look here, for example
http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/french_drinking.htm
for data.
llater,
llamas
Could it be Rave Attenders = Non-voters = Soft Target ?
A_t
You say:
Just because a few raves are organised by dodgy people, this tars the whole phenomenon with a large criminal brush does it?
No, it doesn’t. However most people who posted on this were referring to this particular ‘rave’, which was dodgy. That doesn’t make people illiberal.
I spent many happy hours drinking a great deal without parental supervision and oh how I detest the puritan infantalizers who cannot stand the fact most young people are going to do that and would rather sic the police on anyone who tries.
My kiddies are not at that age (unless Nan is spiking their milk) but I fully intend to let them make their own mistakes without wrapping them in cotton wool and fitting them with blinders.
I’ve been raped twice … I have also lost count of how many times I have been burgled… I have been beaten up and mugged several times
Heavens above Molly! You seem to attract more serious crime than Jessica Fletcher.
llamas is correct about the underage drinking problem in France. I can’t remember the name of the drink they all buy and carry around with them, but it is half beer and half tequila, and they drink it out of the bottle.
The article cites DUI as one of the offenses committed by party goers. What isn’t mentioned is whether these offences were committed before or after authorities ordered everyone to leave. Other accounts of this incident have disclosed that partygoers had brought tents for camping which was encouraged by the promoters. It doesn’t seem that anyone planned on driving anywhere before the following morning. The article also mentions a confirmed overdose and that the person who overdosed was treated and released from the hospital. That doesn’t sound like much of an overdose in any clinical terms, and especially in regards to MDMA. Overall, and though I don’t at all condone the illegal activities in question, it is clear to me that the authorities not only over reacted but used altogether inappropriate tactics in response to this type of situation. All of that heavy artillery looks to be better suited for taking down a Columbian drug cartel than a group of teenagers partying in the woods.
Well, let’s do a little more research on this particular rave, shall we?
No, they did not have the required county permit.
The Utah County Sheriff’s Office went to this rave because of
– numerous complaints of assault, sexual assault and drug dealing at raves in Utah County, earlier in the year
– a near-fatal shooting at a rave in Utah County, earlier in the year.
And – guess what – they made numerous arrests for assault, carrying concealed weapons, minor-in-possession and drug offences. And found an OD’d minor female.
Just as I surmised, two of the persons arrested for drug possession – were members of the ‘security’ staff hired by the promotor. Fancy that!
So let’s review. These events have an extensive history of rampant, serious crime, including violence of all sorts as well as ubiquitous drug dealing. But what’s being suggested here is that the police should simply overlook that. The OD’d minor – well, it was only a little OD, it wasn’t that bad . . . . . How much MDMA should it be legal to sell to a minor child before the police take notice – would you say?
Look, the police can overlook a lot – go to any Jimmy Buffett concert and see what I mean. But if you’re going to set up an open-air drug market, selling to minors and punctuating the evening’s entertainment with random beatings and the occasional shooting – I’m sorry, but that’s the sort of thing I WANT the police to be at.
Cast from your minds this idea that raves are just happy dance parties. They are mostly organized and structured by drug dealers to provide a large and simple market for their wares. With rampant drug dealing comes violent crime. They also attract predators of every stripe, specifically, those who prey on young women. Put all the lipstick on it you like, it’s still a pig.
llater,
llamas
And exactly how many raves have you been to, llamas? I have been to three before becoming officially An Old Guy and it sounds like Molly has been to rather more and somehow we seem to have drawn different conclusions.
By the way, welcome back Molly, have not seen you here for ages! Have you come to your sences and moved to London yet?
Unless I’m misunderstanding, some of the posters above appear to be arguing that if, after the fact, evidence of some crime is found, then there must have been probable cause before the fact–or perhaps that probable cause is irrelevant once evidence of a crime is found? I’m disinclined to so radically undermine privacy protections just so a gang of lazy cowards in armor can have an easy time rounding up stoned teenagers rather than actually earning their pay.
From personal experience, raves are much safer than the average pub scene. The ecstacy culture is considerably less aggro. One of the most common effects of ecstacy is it makes you extremely lovey-dovey (humourously, then maddeningly so to someone who’s straight) and at peace with the world and its inhabitants. Contrast that with the pub/drinking club scene, where alcohol drives a sizeable proportion of its abusers to rampant aggression. I know where I’d rather be if I was concerned about assault, sexual or otherwise.
Exactly? None, of course. I became An Old Guy before raves became popular.
I’m quite prepared to believe that there are raves where all is sweetness and light, and nothing more harmful than Kool-Aid and Milk Duds are consumed.
It’s just that every rave I hear about from my friends in the law-enforcement community seems to end up badly, in just the ways described above. Bear in mind that these are the same coppers who police the aforementioned Jimmy Buffett concerts, where the air is heavy indeed, and don’t have a particular problem with that. If raves were the same sort of ‘mellow’, adult party, as has been suggested here, noone would get arrested at them – it’s just that they all seem to break down into violence, mayhem and more-or-less indiscriminate drug dealing.
Go to a rave and, almost by definition, everyone running it and most of the people attending it are criminals. Yet you seem surprised at the idea that these places are awash in crime. Why is that? I know that you don’t consider many of the things that go on at raves should be crimes, and I don’t necessarily disagree. But I hope you would also agree that many of the things that go on at raves are crimes, and should be. Until you come up with the Magic Automatic Arrestatron, which only arrests the people doing bad things and remains blissfully unaware of everything else – how do you propose that that crime be curtailed? Or is uncontrolled violence, sexual assault and victimization (especially of minors) just a price that has to be borne so that adults can get their jollies free of police interference?
You might also want to consider, perhaps, that raves in the UK have not yet become quite as – developed – as they have in the US. As this exmaple from Utah County graphically describes.
llater,
llamas
Busted raves probably break down into violence because patrons get a bit narky when, having paid sometimes $50 (sometimes more) to attend, are forced by the police to leave. Llamas, as you conceded, you really aren’t speaking from a position of personal knowledge or understanding, and it shows. You are using facts garnered by people who probably feel similarly about the rave scene as yourself. For example, how would you possibly know what a “developed” rave scene looks like, let alone feel qualified to comment that the British rave scene is less developed its American counterpart? Take your cop sources with a pinch of salt – they’re hardly a fount of unbiased, worldly knowledge on the subject. More often than not heavy-handed police interference kicks off the trouble, not events preceding.
If any of these are wrong, please correct me.
Minors access and use of drugs is a legitimate problem worthy of concern.
Minors access and use of drugs is not confined to raves.
If an adult voluntarily takes ecstasy and becomes all “lovey-dovey” no assault has occurred.
Driving under the influence is a major concern to the rest of the community.
If someone uses recreation substances with no intent to drive and has alternate plans, tent etc., and law enforcement compels them to drive and then arrests them, that’s not just wrong, it’s entrapment.
“Article [IV.]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
To non users of substances, raves are fairly safe places. As compared to, say, a Red Soxs fan in a Yankee sports bar.
Just some thoughts. I’m sure there are many more things that most of us can agree on, but it seems that the vulnerability of minors is the biggest issue here.
James Waterton – oh, nonsense. You need to hang out with more coppers. The coppers who get the call when it all goes bad have more knowledge of what raves are really about than you can ever dream of.
These are the same coppers who used to love it when the DeadHeads came to town – never a problem. And I dare say that the average Grateful Dead concert, and all that went with it, involved all of the drug use, and more, that goes on at the average rave. But the DeadHeads weren’t going to events which were organized with the primary purpose of selling them drugs. They policed themselves, to a large extent, and so the attendant ills of consorting with criminals never arose.
Most working coppers don’t give a rip if adults take drugs, so long as they don’t hurt anyone else and noone else gets hurt in the process. But that is – self-evidently – very often not the case at raves.
You misunderstand me. The way I feel about the ‘rave scene’ is that if adults want to get together in a field somewhere and get stoned and stupid and dance all night – good luck to them. But that’s not what most raves are about – as the facts of just this one event clearly show.
My comments about the US vs UK ‘rave scene’ are developed from media reports which tend to show that the UK doesn’t seem to generally have the same extent of organized drug dealing and the attendant crime and violence which invariably follows. Perhaps I am wrong.
But let me get this straight. Let’s talk about just this one event. There’s rampant, indiscriminate drug dealing, including dealing to minors. There’s a strong history of all sorts of crime, up to and including attempted murder, at similar events in the same jurisdiction. And yet – according to you – the violence that occurred is the fault of the police, for coming along and breaking up the party? Just how bad does the crime have to get, would you say, before you would be ready to call the police? And would you perhaps share with us what you believe the policy of the police should be regarding serious crimes such as attempted murder, or selling unknown drugs to minors? Should they simply ignore these things becases, after all, it’s a rave, and adults should be able to get their fun any way they like?
I’ve seen the attitude of most of the commenters here before – the ones who cry that it’s all the fault of the police and people should just be left alone to live their lives. But the police usually realize – as those commenters do not – that there are many bad people in the world, who are out looking for victims. And those commenters, typically, are those who will cry longest and loudest for the police when they wake up bloody in some gutter somewhere, and no idea where their billfold, or their underwear, has got to.
All this ‘you’ve never been, you don’t know’ talk is nonsense. Have you ever been to the North Pole? I bet you haven’t, but you know good-and-well that it’s bloody cold there. Don’t you?
llater,
llamas
Fair enough, llamas. However, I have encountered my fair share of officious coppers who aren’t as easy going as you depict.
Another issue not touched upon much here is the ridiculous US legal drinking age of 21.
Protection of minors is an issue. If the concern is to keep minors away from illegal drugs then the best answer is legalising illegal drugs and control them in the same way as the legal drugs. Sellers of illegal drugs would then have a real incentive not to sell to minors. At the moment there is no incentive for illegal drug sellers to refrain from selling to children.
In response to James Waterton’s comment about the ridiculous drinking age in the US. I could not agree more. As I understand there is no actual federal law setting drinking ages – that is done by the States – but there are federal financial penalties in terms of reduced transport expenditure if a State does not set the age at 21. Puerto Rico has a drinking age of 18 and I believe one other brave state does the same. I’m sure that the stupidly high legal drinking age is one reason why the US has such a high marijuana consumption rate (no age controls there.)
Robert, I think you have it pretty much right. The federal hand is heavy in everything that appears to be controlled at the state level by virtue of they just don’t give our tax dollars back if we don’t “voluntarily cooperate”.
One other contributor to the uniformity of drinking ages that was big where I am is state borders. My relatively realistic state was forced to change because our borders with neighboring states became free kill zones of drunk 19 and 20 year olds trying to get back home. Predictably, there were a lot of them.
Thanks llamas for the allusion to Jon’s jail Journal + link to marininstitute + several formulas, for instance… ” 10 mn before”
“Have you ever been to the North Pole? I bet you haven’t, but you know good-and-well that it’s bloody cold there.”
It makes me think of the loneliness of the over-twelve, whose parents fell they don’t own them any company, nor game, nor help to study, and traditional games are considered as childish and boring. Still, it should be repeated that parents are responsible for any action, belongings and animals of their children under 18. That means they should always attend the party that their children organise, keep close (physically and mentally) to any party that they attend and that they should keep their childrens’ mind busy (even avoiding their parents) rather than iddle and lonely.
About pooring alcool into glasses, I think young people should be told clearly (rather than resent) that it’s an act of seduction and acceptation. Girls should learn to say “no” politely to all kind of offers, and train. (this could be the subject of a heavy thesis).
Unfortunately, teenagers with two good parents will know all that, and a lot more, before the other one ever hear of these social tricks (like Perry). These is why the drinking age should be the majority age, 18, and the first glasses should be drank with the parents.
I hope I will avoid misundurstandings about this sutle subject, (too long to write). In short, it’s become a privilege to be guarded by two strict parents and brought back home by someone reliable any time of the day. Girls who sleep around are often lonely and less educated, they have less fun than the one who can attend nice private parties. Raves, being open, are just businesses and can’t be fun. Think of all the reasonable people who can’t chat and danse (by pairs, I’m partial) anymore because their are no more safe places and safe itinararies around where to learn the facts of life (Zimbabwe, South Africa, Europe, etc.). It was a conquest of the XXth century .
“Until you come up with the Magic Automatic Arrestatron, which only arrests the people doing bad things and remains blissfully unaware of everything else – how do you propose that that crime be curtailed?”
I don’t see anything wrong with sending a couple of officers into a rave – without interupting the music and waving guns around and without the support of a helicopter – to just have a casual chat with the organisers, search the bouncers, look for known baddies and check the quiet corners for anyone seriously stoned.
Once they’ve done that, then there is at least a possibility of “just cause” for the armed police and helicopter support.
Perhaps llamas, before his trip to the Pole, should buy a sound card and watch the video record.
Keep up the good work, all.
I’m Dumbfounded!! I thought this was a Libertarian site?
Llamas, ” You wouldn’t LLet it LLie ” would you. Despite knowing nothing at all about raves , you keep insisting you do.
Like Molly, I’ve been to loads. In fact In Britain they are ever so passe these days. But in all my time in muddy fields, stoned off my box and dancing, I have never seen a gun or heard of a rape. So whatever you Americans are doing, well are you holding the plans the right way up??
RAB writes:
“So whatever you Americans are doing, well are you holding the plans the right way up??”
Sadly, that is the nub of it. The sort of “raves”, you, Perry de Havilland and the serially unfortunate Molly have been enjoying are clearly not the same things that Llamas has been fulminating against.
Two nations divided by a common blah, blah, blah…
Utah, people. Mormons who don’t smoke, drink, or even have a cup of coffee.
The people who held this thing were being stupid. Those of you on your high horse are judging very “orthodox” people by the standards of London or New York. Not everybody is so cool and cosmopolitan as you obviously think you are.
Erm, there were the 60 weapons offences, drug use, driving under the influence, underage drinking…. Did the organiser have permits for those too?
’60 weapons offenses’ should be setting off your BS detector.
—–
And – guess what – they made numerous arrests for assault, carrying concealed weapons, minor-in-possession and drug offences. And found an OD’d minor female.
For future reference- ‘numerous arrests for assault’ apparently means ‘2’. There were a whopping 2 arrests for firearms possession- I understand this is blatantly illegal in the UK, but we’re talking about the US, things are a little different stateside. Alcohol and drug offenses combined came to 21- in a gathering of somewhere between 250 and 500 people.
That’s a fairly mellow party, by my standards. YMMV.
Of course, this happened in Utah, land of the Mormons, that we’re talking about. It sounds like the local law enforcement decided they didn’t want raves on their beat and made a show of force to make that clear to the organizers.
Banned In Britain-
Since you’re almost certainly the same moron who’s been trolling here for the past few months, I want to pose a question to you. Now I know I have asked you this question before, but I’ll ask you again – DON’T YOU HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO DO?
Not everybody is so cool and cosmopolitan as you obviously think you are.
I wish I were. But I have never, and have no intention of ever, going to a rave or music festival.
The point is that, however “orthodox” local people are, they have no business stopping others doing what those others like doing unless they can point to injury to themselves or non-consenting third parties. An imposed risk of injury might count as injury for these purposes, abnormal noise or other disturbance to neighbours probably would, but psychological discomfort caused by mere knowledge of the activities involved does not. Else you are merely imposing one set of people’s tastes on another arbitrarily.
The desire to impose one’s own taste is pretty common. It is hiding in, say, the American concept of “community standards”, the UK official idea of “inappropriate behaviour”, and the conception of a “decadent society” embraced by imams and some Tory MPs.
Banned In Britain,
I’ve frequently made similar points; but I can usually manage to stay civil and on topic. If you can’t then you are no better than comment spam, and any self-respecting blog is going to ban you.
I think all this talk against drinking, drugs, muggings etc. at raves is a disingenuous smoke screen.
We’ve seen this time and time again. Somewhere there are always little Hitler’s lurking in the background pulling the strings who display a combination of intolerance, ignorance and fear of different life styles together with an authoritarian puritanical mindset.
But then again, isn’t this all part of the fun. Rebelious youth needs something to rebel against. If raves were state organised affairs they would quickly lose their appeal.
So I talked last night with a command patrol officer in the next county over, who I know well. And what he told me was this.
The ‘rave scene’ in this part of the world splits 3 ways. They are
– the ‘old school’ raves. Usually at more-or-less established venues, clubs and so forth. Mostly people in their late teens and older, college students and young professionals. Usually fairly well-organized, usually very little trouble. The people who go to these are looking to take as much MDMA as they can, dance themselves ragged, and hook up for the weekend. Very little drug dealing – everyone brings their own. Very few policing problems – the organizers keep the obvious troublemakers out, and it’s kind of an established crowd. Most times, the cops never even know these happened, and care less. Interesting sidebar – there’s apparently a growing subset of these that have a strong Indian flavour, catering to the second-generation children of Indian immigrants.
– the ‘bush parties’. Even though this is a major metropolitan area, there’s a surprising amount of very rural parts. ‘Bush parties’ go on out in the country, or in industrial areas. Much harder-edged – a blue-collar crowd, and a strong trend to drugs like amphetamines and cocaine. The crime at these events tends to be of a much higher order – assault, rape and so forth. When the cops come, everyone’s gone but the victim(s), and nobody know nuthin’ from nuthin’.
– the ‘mushroom’ raves. The target demographic for these are white, middle-class suburban teens 16-20. They have lots of money, nice jewelery, good cars and are amazing naive. These are the ones most likely to go bad. When the cops show up, the ‘promoter’ (who is a pre-paid cellphone and a disappearing website) is long gone, as are his henchmen in the subspecialties of drug dealing and ‘security’ (also known as ‘keeping other drug dealers out’). MDMA, GHB and various inhalants are the drugs of choice here. The venue and the parking lot are going to be sprinkled with drunk or stoned teens who have no idea what happened to them. Some girls have obviously been abused to some extent or other – they’re crying and they can’t find half their clothes. Some boys have obviously been assaulted to some extent or other – the classic ‘rave’ injuries, the broken nose or the linear welts of the ASP baton. All the nice cars in the parking lot have been broken into, and the really nice ones are gone. And, from far and wide, summoned by cellphone, the optometrists and the CPAs in their SUVs are congregating to collect their children. And to tell the coppers ‘you can’t arrest our Solange! She hasn’t done anything! This isn’t going to get in the papers, is it?’ These events are also where the predators will be found – overwhelmingly male, but both gay and straight, they can’t get into the ‘old school’ raves and they know better than to try the ‘bush parties’. There are also various loosely-knit ‘wrecking crews’ that look for this type of event and descend on it, to steal cars, roll the participants (not hard, they’re mostly pretty wasted) and engage in some recreational violence.
These are the events which cause law-enforcement the most problems. The type of crime is (relatively) trivial but the amount of it is significant.
Auto theft is a big part of these events. The local auto theft task force once took off a whole bunch of nice cars, obviously stolen, on the back roads of Rural Township, on a Friday night. Just for S&G, they took their good time contacting the registered owners. Sure enough, come Sunday morning, the reports start coming in – ‘my daughter’s car was stolen from her friend’s driveway/the parking lot at the mall/some other innocuous location’. Sure thing, lady – that car that she parked in Missy’s driveway on Saturday evening, and now it’s gone (she says) – that must be a different car than the one we stopped Friday night out in BFE, with Tyrone at the wheel. Why don’t you ask your daughter where the party was that she and Missy went to? And tell Missy’s parents that they need to buy her a new car, she’s bringing down the neighbourhood.
That’s how it goes around here. How does it go in your neck of the woods?
llater,
llamas
guy herbert writes:
“I have never, and have no intention of ever, going to a rave or music festival.”
Well, there goes your invitation to Glyndebourne!
Has it occured to you, llamas, that gathering all your information about raves from your police officer friends doesn’t give you a better sense of what they’re like, but in fact an incredibly skewed one?
Julian Sanchez – Your point is well-taken, but of course, I really don’t care what they’re like – what interests me are the outcomes. And for those, the coppers are likely the best source of data, since they see more of the outcomes than anyone else.
As with others, you misunderstand me. I have no problem with adults doing, whatever they want to do, at raves or anywhere else. I could care less, so long as they’re all consenting and noone gets hurt that doesn’t want to. I’m simply pointing out that many raves are shot through with violence and lawlessness, to a greater or lesser degree, and that many of the victims are minors. And I’m reminding you that it is the job of the police to respond to violence and lawlessness.
Much of the thinking here seems to run along the lines of ‘oh, sure, the police should arrest bad people immediately – just as long as they don’t do anything whatsoever to spoil my good time!’ Once again, the folks with these mindsets are typically the ones who will howl longest and loudest for the law when some bad person REALLY spoils their good times.
GCooper – 🙂
I agree with others that the US drinking age of 21 is a joke, but do not agree that lowering it would make any difference here. Alcohol is freely available in the US to under-21’s, always has been, always will be.
llater,
llamas
The more I think about this, the more I realize that I and the various other posters who are taking me to task have a fundamentally different way of looking at the world, at least insofar as it comes to matters like this.
I take as my thesis the case of Natalee Holloway, the Alabama teenager who has now been missing for (however-many) days from a senior class trip to Aruba. I believe that she is (was) 17 years old, correct me if I am wrong. This case has been saturating the cable news channels in the US for months now. There’s little doubt that she is dead, the question now is when, where, how.
I see a case like this – 17-year-old girl, extremely attractive by all accounts, out at all hours of the night, alone, with total strangers, in a notorious party town, in a foreign country that is completely unknown to her, drinking, partying – and I say to myself –
What in the hell did you expect? She might as well be walking around with a big sign around her neck saying ‘ready-made victim, over here!’ The girl, may she rest in peace, obviously had about as much awareness of the world as a Bartlett pear.
The world contains many bad people, who are out looking for victims. By their past and present crimes may you know them. If you hang out with large numbers of these people, or go to places where they congregate, sooner or later, you will become a victim.
Yet none of the news coverage of this case touches in any way on that inescapable truth. To do so would, no doubt, be in very poor taste, yet that does not change the truth of it.
The same truth applies to raves and the like, at least as they are presently practiced in the US.
I suspect that many of those taking me to task have little or no realization of the nastier aspects of society. Maybe I am more sensitive to these things than some, but that sensitivity is born of real-world experience. Coppers call this a ‘street degree’, and while I may not have matriculated, I audited my fair share of classes. And I see littlke or none of that real-world awareness in many of the psoters here.
llater,
llamas
Alcohol is not freely available to under 21s. The fact that the law is widely circumvented does not alter the fact that alcohol sellers have an incentive not to sell to minors. I would guess that it is a lot easier for an average 18 year old to score some weed than buy some beers. The severe restriction on alcohol sales is probably a contributory factor to the prevalence of illegal raves etc.. If 18 year olds want to get off their heads there is no legal way for them to do that – so you get illegal raves which , in the US, are a magnet for real criminals.
Llamas,
Maybe if Natalee Holloway had had a little more experience with alcohol in her home country, or better yet at home with her parents and family in normal social gatherings, she might have been better able to look after herself.
Robert Alderson wrote:
‘Maybe if Natalee Holloway had had a little more experience with alcohol in her home country, or better yet at home with her parents and family in normal social gatherings, she might have been better able to look after herself.’
Oh, I quite agree – although I find it doubtful that an Alabama high-school cheerleader would be entirely – unacquainted, shall we say – with the effects of alcohol.
But what amazes me is that her parents/step-parents/ whatever would even consider allowing her to take a trip like that. It baffles me, it really does. It only reinforces my impression that I look at these things in a very different way than many other people do. Whether ‘where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise’, I could not say.
llater,
llamas
Well if your police friends have a street degree Llamas, then I have a Masters. I used to work in the Crown Court in Bristol for many years and have seen more coppers and criminals than most people have had hot dinners.
Besides how naive and stupid are the preppy types with the flash cars that get stolen or broken into? Surely you only get ripped off once and you learn your lesson( I know I did when, aged 17, all my gear got stolen by French anarchists at the Isle of Wight Festival whilst I was watching Hendrix, and I had to get home to Wales in only the clothes i stood up in). These clowns dont go back for more do they??
Britons, on the whole, appear to be much more street-smart than Yanks it seems to me. We can smell rip off from miles away, and act accordingly.
Anyone who thinks that teenagers should be able to try to find their own way and make their own mistakes is either not a parent, or drank too much 1970s-era Kool-Aid.
My son is legally old enough to drive here in Texas (he’s 16), and he asked me why I hadn’t yet taught him how. My response: “You have the hardware, but you don’t yet have the software.”
That’s the problem with teenagers in general: they do all sorts of mindless nonsense (like raves), and then when the SHTF, we parents have to bury the body, or watch them lie comatose in hospital beds, or bail them out of jail.
Nuts to that.
Here’s a thought: teenagers have no adult rights, because they aren’t yet adults. We don’t let them vote, or sign contracts, or even get married without permission.
Why should we allow them to indulge in behavior which we KNOW will fuck them up?
Last time I looked, that’s what being a parent is all about.
I have rights too, as a parent: for instance, I have the right not to have to bury my child, when I could have prevented their death.
Sorry if that doesn’t work for the libertarian/ unlimited freedom / neo-anarchist philosophy.
GCooper –
You have reminded me. It’s not quite true I’ve never been to a music festival. I did once go to the Almeida Festival of Contemporary Music on a well-meaning friend’s invitation. I fell asleep.
Glyndbourne would be wasted on me. Though if its the choice of that or some sporting event, I’ll take the picnic with shreiking, definitely.
Kim,
I agree with the thrust of your point that minors do not have full rights. But what is the correct age of majority? You say that teenagers cannot vote, sign, contracts or get married without permission. Actually, I think that an 18 or 19 year old could probably do all of those things in most places. The state can set some rules about who can do what at what age but parents have to take the lead role in determining what is appropriate at what age. It just seems crazy to me that the general rule in the US is that you can drive fully five years before you can drink. A lot of people do some crazy things with alcohol when they first drink – it’s seems like a good idea to not have cars around at that time. My preference is for the state to step back (not entirely out of the way) and give parents the space to act as parents. Teenagers will always seek out alcohol and other dangerous things, let’s have it out in the open rather than hidden away.
’60 weapons offenses’ should be setting off your BS detector. Right on.
Somebody call me when the 60 arrests, or whatever, get turned into real convictions. Some teenager ‘brandishing’ (ie waving and pointing drunkenly] a beer bottle at a cop gets busted for a weapons charge.
But it’s a good lesson for these kids. The everlasting enemy is not the foreigner; not the Islamist; not the Nazi; not the Russian; not the Roman invader; not the Vandal horde. It is ever and always our own masters, the rulers, the civil ‘servants’, the cops, die Polizei.
Papieren, bitte. Sofort.
Let me just say to llamas suggestion that Deadheads weren’t there to buy drugs: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!
Oh that’s funny, and I’m not ashamed to admit (it’s public record anyway) that I’ve been busted for selling acid at a Dead show, and MOST of those people were there for the drugs! (Moralists in the audience please note that there is NO KNOWN fatally toxic dose for LSD, and go find some children if they wanna play nanny!)
And a rave sans pigs is about as peaceful as a Dead show sans pigs…the only violence I’ve seen at either was from police intervention, or some encounter with private security, none of which was because anything that wasn’t peaceful was going on, but because of artificially created ‘illegal acts’.
And note that about half of the people arrrested were only arrested for things like ‘resisting arrest’, and had done nothing else wrong! 100% nanny state created crime!
As a local paper in Utah County pointed out, if you searched everyone at a BYU football game you would certainly find illegal drugs, alcohol being consumed by minors, vehicle violations comparable to those at the rave, etc. and yet they don’t stop every BYU game, they merely remove the visible violators.
Equal Protection, my ass.
David Mercer wrote:
‘Let me just say to llamas suggestion that Deadheads weren’t there to buy drugs: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!’
The trouble is – I never said that. Please try and pay attention. What I said was:
‘These are the same coppers who used to love it when the DeadHeads came to town – never a problem. And I dare say that the average Grateful Dead concert, and all that went with it, involved all of the drug use, and more, that goes on at the average rave. But the DeadHeads weren’t going to events which were organized with the primary purpose of selling them drugs. They policed themselves, to a large extent, and so the attendant ills of consorting with criminals never arose.’
Note carefully where I repeatedly affirm that there was plenty of drug use at a Grateful Dead concert and the festivities which surrounded it.
My point – if you’d have been paying attention, you’d have grasped it – is that the Grateful Dead (their organizers, promoters, whoever) did not organize Grateful Dead concerts for the primary purpose of having themselves (the Grateful Dead, their organizers, promoters, wheover) sell drugs to those attending. Which is often the primary purpose for which raves are organized – the ‘promoters’ are also the dealers.
As I said – the reason that the DeadHeads were never much of a policing problem is that they had sorted out for themselves a culture which allowed them to use drugs, and lots of them, without all of the attendant crime, violence and mayhem which accompany the large-scale, single-point distribution of drugs. And that’s why there was seldom any policing problem with the DeadHeads – except, of course, when chuckleheads decided to deal drugs in ways which the cops could not ignore. You seem to forget – perhaps you never knew – that if you commit a crime in front of an officer, or give him reasonable cause to believe that that’s what you’re doing, he has no choice – he must act, or get into worse trouble than if he did not.
As to this:
‘And a rave sans pigs is about as peaceful as a Dead show sans pigs…the only violence I’ve seen at either was from police intervention, or some encounter with private security, none of which was because anything that wasn’t peaceful was going on, but because of artificially created ‘illegal acts’.’
I beg to differ. My experience of the DeadHeads is limited, but they seem generally to have been a peaceful lot. We may contrast that with the outcomes of raves reported in just the one county in question, including multiple sexual assaults and multiple assaults up to the level of attempted murder with a firearm. Were those crimes solely the result of police intervention? Did someone see the cops coming and decide to go grope some teenage girl?
Your point about the relative physical safety of LSD is well-taken. Now perhaps you would tell us all how much LSD you think you (not you personally, anybody, doesn’t matter) should be able to sell to a minor child before it becomes a crime? Justify your answer.
llater,
llamas
David Mercer wrote:
‘As a local paper in Utah County pointed out, if you searched everyone at a BYU football game you would certainly find illegal drugs, alcohol being consumed by minors, vehicle violations comparable to those at the rave, etc. and yet they don’t stop every BYU game, they merely remove the visible violators.’
This would be the Provo Herald. I wonder why you did not also post another part of the same editorial, which reads:
“Ravers are currently circulating video footage on the Internet to back up claims of police misconduct. We viewed the video and found no indication that the police acted improperly — no tear gas, no shots fired, no dogs chewing on kids. ”
llater,
llamas
Time for a musical interlude I think.
John Sebastian, unreconstituted hippie and doper, wrote a song many years ago( presumeably on the birth of his first born) , called “Younger Generation”.One of the lines went like this( I havent played it for years so the quote may not be exact)
” Hey pop, my boyfriend’s only three. He’s got his own videophone and he’s taking LSD, and now we’re going steady he want’s to give some to me. What’s the matter daddy? how come you’re turning green? Can it be that you can’t live up to your dreams”.
A good songwriter and a man who understands the difficulties of combining certain lifestyles and parenthood. A real difficult row to hoe.
All you parents I salute you , and wish you the best of luck to turn your children into decent adults. But it really is up to you not the state to make the rules.
Well, since llamas appears to be sooo conversant with all of the Myths of the American Repubilc, he should have heard of the theory of consent of the governed, that little thing that was the color of Natural Law underwhich the Revolution was held.
If there are so many Americans who are determined, regardless of the intensity the War on Drugs (i.e. on themselves), and continue to send literally hundreds of billions overseas to consume their preferred recreational drugs, and in almost a dozen states have started to roll back drug prohibition in the form of medical marijuana laws, which are soundly ignored by the Feds, where oh where does that leave the theoretical underpinnings of American Govt.?
Whatever happened to the true rights of the accused, to have a jury judge not only the facts of a case, but the justness of the particular law in question in the context of that case? You’ll recall from English History that Jury Independance was a major issue in the 1600s, described as the ‘last defense against tyranny’? What happened to that when a cancer patient can’t tell the jury that he was obeying all State and Local laws regarding pot?
Where oh where is your right to rule and tell consenting adults what non-toxic substances they can put into their body? Who died and elected the FDA and DEA and their moralistic, politically and commercially tainted rulings the right to tell Free Americans such a thing?
David, if you’ll forgo state-funded medical care to remedy the consequences of what you put in your body, I’d be willing to let you drink battery acid if that’s what gets you off.
It’s your life and your body, you’re free to wreck it so long as the consequences are confined to you.
Unfortunately, a lot of druggies either 1) go to the emergency room when they get fucked up and stick the taxpayers with the bill, or 2) resort to crime in order to pay for the habit. The third factor is that dealers in illegal substances are often very willing to use violence to prevent competition, and that has a way of affecting uninvolved parties, as well.
Figure out a way to solve those problems- and no, just legalizing everything isn’t the solution- and I’d be quite willing to let you put whatever you like in your body.
David Mercer – it may surprise you to learn that, in many ways, I don’t disagree with you.
Read what I wrote – several times. Once again, my issues are not with drug use by consenting adults. My issues are with the crime, violence and general mayhem that inevitably follows from drug dealing, and with the victimization of drug users, especially minors. You may well argue that this is mostly a result of the War on Drugs, and I wouldn’t disagree. But even if every drug taken at a rave were 100% legal, I suggest to you that they would still be centers of crime and victimization, because a) criminals will always prefer victims who are out of their heads and b) people who are out of their heads will tend to do criminal things.
llater,
llamas