Iran has apparently won a ‘victory’ over the National Geographic Society by pressuring them into dropping references to the ‘Arabian Gulf’ and stucking with the admittedly more usual ‘Persian Gulf’ on its maps.
During the map row, the Iranian government warned that it “will act against any media” using the term “Arabian Gulf.”
It seems that the mullahs had banned National Geographic magazone and excluded anyone working for the society due to their choice of terminology in their publications and on-line (and also pointing out that Iran’s control of several islands is contested). I have no idea if National Geographic changed its policy because of Iranian pressure or just because ‘Persian Gulf’ is in fact the more common description for the body of water in question.
This is a fine demonstration of the absurdity to which nationalism drived people generally and the sheer banal immaturity of the men in preposterous hats running Iran. It is as if the British government banned anyone working any French publication using the term ‘La Manche’ rather than ‘English Channel’. Do these people really not have anything more pressing to worry about?
“It does show the absurdity of nationalism generally”
It shoes the absurdity of a certain kind of hyper-sensitive nationalism, but I dont see how it is a comment about nationalism generally.
Because all nationalism is essentially stupid. Affinity for one society over another society can be rational as clearly not all societies are as ‘good’ as another (though usually it means one tiny sub segment of a society that ‘I’ belong to over some generalised ‘other’ society), but the nation-states fetishised by nationalists are never more than varying degrees of evil, moderated mostly by a modicum of useful incompetence.
This reminds me of the Greeks who get worked up over the Republic of Macedonia’s name. This thread is an excellent example of how rediculous nationalism can get.
Yeah, it’s more than stupid, mate. I tend to piss on people in the UK more than foreigners just cos I understand British people better, having grown up surrounded by the scabby bastards. Sounds like the blokes running Iran are a right bunch of wankers but I doubt theyre all they different to those BNP turds when you look under the language. Nationalism is like supporting a football team to the point you are willing to kill someone for daring to come onto your manor wearing the wrong colour shirt. I like my mates and I pretty much want everyone else to stay out of my face and I don’t give a monkeys where they come from, either my mates or everyone else. Nationalists are always gits when you find out what they really think 😛
Oops, forgot to tell you that I posted to that group as rbullo.
I dont ascribe to the ostensibly universally popular notion that nationalism is of necessity a vile sentiment. There are times when my country right or wrong staunchness is all that stands between a people and it’s utter annihilation. Iranian nationalism served that now benighted nation extremely well and the pride a Persian ( Muslim, Jewish, Christain or Zaroastrian) takes in his heritage is too sublime to be confused with jingoism. Right up until the Ayatollahs started their systematic rape of Persian culture, even Persian Islam was uniquely Iranian in its essence, ritual and character forming a magnificent bulwark against the rank idiocy of Arab Islam. Shiites the world over formally or informally have always given their allegiance to Isfahan and Teheran rather than to the ghastly Meccans and I am old enough to remember the Shah’s obligatory portrait in many a sophisticated family room; in Beirut, Lucknow and Srinagar. The Ayatollahs tap into this lode of nationalism, Stalin like when they need to galvanize the masses…after all, to reiterate Imam Ali’s philo-Persian credentials is a regular ocurence in Shia Iranian liturgy. The Iranians were the last Near Eastern empire to submit to Mahound’s hordes and they unlike all other nations in the region held on to their language; though sadly not the script. A revival of Iranian nationalism; a rejection of the shameful Islamic Imperialist taint on one of the world’s greatest cultures would be a joyful event for all the free, civilised people in the region and beyond. As one prays for the `Arya Mehr’ of this culture to shine forth once more; a memo to the Mullapparatchiks hassling the National Geographic crowd: reinstate the Persian KHUDA for the Arabic ALLAH and we’ll talk.
The USA needs to go to an Israeli type targeted assination campaign against the mullahs. JDAM one or two every night and it will give them something more immediate to worry about. JDAM Diplomacy is the natural successor to gunboat diplomacy. Risk Free (as much as anything can be) and effective, It’s a negoiating tool for the 21st century.
Nationalism is just another ‘ism’. It is no better or worse then most other ‘isms’. ALL can be abused. Blaming Nationalsim for something makes about as much sense as blaming handguns for crime.
I beg to differ, Stehpinkeln. An affinity to a culture is just fine by me, but that is not nationalism, at least not what I mean by it as I suppose definitions will vary. ‘My nation right or wrong’ may have brought us the reason for some of the undoubted heroics of the 101st Airborne against all odds at Bastone… it also brought us the undoubted heroics of the Waffen SS against all odds on the eastern front. No, nationalism is not like alcohol (ok is small doses), it is more like crack (it is liable to dement a person in any quantity, reducing them to a collective bundle of directed emotions rather than a thinking person). It is fine to feel pride in culture and even tribe, and want what is best for it, which I prefer to think of as ‘patriotism’ quite separate from the political nation-state’s ‘nationalism’, but in the end this could also end up a discussion of semantics… but a clear headed understanding that pandering to atavistic tribal urges is better done at football matches than with nation-states is a better insurance against annihilation than mindlessly following a path because ‘my country, right or wrong’ of the flavour of the day.
err. Arabian Gulf Arabian Gulf Arabian Gulf Arabian Gulf Arabian Gulf Arabian Gulf
Don’t mind if they have my home address.
WE should have renamed it “Yankee Lake”, but then a whole bucnh of Southerners would have got upset…
For a while I know the State Department was simply calling it “The Gulf” to avoid pissing anyone off (hence, “The Gulf War”). These days, however, I see from their web site that they’re back to using “Persian Gulf.”
all i can say, in your face. it was a good kicking ass for arabs which eat lucust. and for american eating bullets in america.
Is it nationalism or patriotism that motivates UKIP so beloved of many who post here?
I am no fan of the statist, bureaucratic madhouse that is the European Union as constituted. However my objections to it have nothing to with my patriotism for the UK. Similiarly as a proud Scot, I do not feel this pride demands I vote for a nationalist party that would tear apart a relationship that has done nothing but serve all parties well throughout its history.
Doesn’t this point to a fault line that is often overlooked – namely that Iran doesnt see its self as Arab – but rather opposes the Arab states – as the Iran Iraq war showed when most of the Arab states bank rolled Iraq?
I see this more as an indication that Iran is nuking its self as much against the Arabs as against the West. Is that good for us? Probably not, but it adds perspective to some of what is going on – particularly in relation to iraq – Arab, but Shia.
dunderheid writes:
“Similiarly as a proud Scot, I do not feel this pride demands I vote for a nationalist party that would tear apart a relationship that has done nothing but serve all parties well throughout its history.”
Amazing. A Scot who has never heard of either the Common Fisheries Policy of the Common Agricultural Policy.
As for the subject actually under discussion, I rather suspect that R. Rasul-Taus knows what he is speaking about.
This isn’t an issue that’s limited to the Mad Mullahs. A lot of secular Iranian immigrants in the US take umbrage at the use of “Arabian Gulf” too.
It’s not a religious issue; it’s a cultural issue.
The Arab-Islamic conquest of Persia nearly wiped the old, august Ancient Persian culture out. I think they are entitled to as much of their old culture as they can hold onto, myself.
I dunno. I say just call the region IOPG- Indian Ocean Persian Gulf. Although calling in the Yakee Sea would be nice. . .
Main Entry: na·tion·al·ism
Pronunciation: ‘nash-n&-“li-z&m, ‘na-sh&-n&l-“i-z&m
Function: noun
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
Main Entry: na·tion b : a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c : a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status
Pronunciation: ‘nA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English nacioun, from Middle French nation, from Latin nation-, natio birth, race, nation, from nasci to be born; akin to Latin gignere to beget — more at KIN
1 a (1) : NATIONALITY 5a (2) : a politically organized nationality (3) : a non-Jewish nationality
2 archaic : GROUP, AGGREGATION
3 : a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)
Main Entry: na·tion·al·i·ty
Pronunciation: “na-sh&-‘na-l&-tE, “nash-‘na-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : national character
2 : NATIONALISM
3 a : national status; specifically : a legal relationship involving allegiance on the part of an individual and usually protection on the part of the state b : membership in a particular nation
4 : political independence or existence as a separate nation
5 a : a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state b : an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (as a nation )
I fail to see why this (Nationalism) is considered a ‘bad thing’. I can see how it can be missed-used. I place the blame for it’s missuse on those miss-using it , not the ‘ism’ itself.
“We have no eternal allies,” Lord Palmerston famously observed, “and we have no perpetual enemies.” “Our interests are eternal and perpetual,” Britain’s 19th-century foreign secretary added, “and those interests it is our duty to follow.”
Isn’t “the gulf” considered international waters? Why not vote on it? Let the whole world vote. Or we could hold another war and let the winner name it. Traditional vs New Age.
To my regret I have heard of both the CFP and CAP, both of which represent the nadir of stupidity that is the currently constituted European Union.
The relationship I was referring to as a proud Scot was that with England, Wales and N. Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. A relationship which, despite the benefits it has brought to all parties, is under threat from a nationalist independance party, the SNP.
My problem with UKIP is not that I wish the UK to stay within the EU as it stands now. It is rather that as a nationalist independance party, UKIP play up to the “atavistic tribal urges” so rightly feared and condemned in a previous post.
Considering their media is reporting we flew over their nuke sites, I would think they have other things to worry about.
But everyone has their priorities.
Presumably some of the touchiness comes from issues regarding their borders and the bitter rivalry between Iran and Saudi Arabia.
I don’t see anything nationalistic or particularly wrong with defending traditional names. If someone came along and wanted to change the name of our Lake Champlain to Sam’s Lake, we’d shoot him.
Persian Gulf–same thing.
dunderheid,
Not all Scots (or Welshmen for that matter) find the relationship one to be proud of or one they want to continue (heck, I’ve known my fair share of Scots and Welshmen who like to spit on the Union Jack). If either want to break away peacefully, I say have at it.
What’s wrong with Kuwait Gulf?
“National Geographic Magazone”? Was that deliberate or a spelling mistake, Perry?!!
Probably just a poorly edited write-up. Though I guess you could try to explain away “stucking” as well. 🙂
“Drived”
If you were a pretentious parasite you would find harassing an internationally renowned institution like the National Geographic Society far more exciting than imprisoning unknown Iranians. Dictators too need to leave their mark on what’s left of their country. But cultural achievement is difficult to reach in the remnants of their universities, an honorary doctorate is too easy to get and maybe they’ve understood from Mr and Mrs Ceausescu’s numerous experiences that it’s ridiculous. It’s also easier to “fight” for a word than to build a palace for which I’m afraid they have neither taste nor competence. Besides, you don’t know what glorious fairytale they’ll make of it with half the talent of the Agence France Presse and how long they’ll stay in charge thanks to this local propaganda. Don’t underestimate the prestige of Occidental culture in the Arabic world and the power of words (sorry for my faults), remember Georges Orwell. Certain appellations justify wars and expulsions of minorities. If you were a Caldean, Jewish, Armenian, or any Christian still living in an Arabic country or Kosovo, Albania, Turkey, and some parts of Macedonia, you would shiver just hearing some new expression. I hope most of you regret how efficient and clever even ignorant nationalists are, not stupid.
As for us, the French, the fact that we always named this sea “Golfe Persique” is there to remind us that we were once against Arabic domination.
So are you the French “for” now?
dunderheid writes:
“My problem with UKIP is not that I wish the UK to stay within the EU as it stands now. It is rather that as a nationalist independance party, UKIP play up to the “atavistic tribal urges” so rightly feared and condemned in a previous post.”
My contacts with the UKIP and its members have yet to reveal the slightest anti-Union sentiments, though there is, rightly, a growing resentment of Scotland’s undue influence in English affairs, throughout the country as a whole.
When I had a stint with Aramco in Saudi back in 1982, there was a world globe knocking about in the building I worked in (the Telephone Exchange). It had been censored using Tippex & Biro to show that the nasty Persian Gulf was really the Arabian Gulf.
All Aramco maps & documents reflected this of course. From memory, one of the Kings (Fahd?) had decreed it at some point during the rich tapestry of goings on there.
Why are the mullahs so keen on perpetuating memories of the decadent western-loving Shah of Persia? Why not the Iranian Gulf?
Shared bodies of water are always a problem. How about the South China Sea? The Indian Ocean? Surely someone must resent those usages. Hey, why does everyone call it the Gulf of Mexico? It’s mostly ours, darn it! Gulf of America. I like it. It’s a good thing the Red Sea wasn’t ever the Egyptian Sea.
Couldn’t everyone just compromise and call the Persian Gulf the “Sea Surrounded by Funny-dressing but Extremely Dangerous Religious Fanatics”?
Basically the countries around the Persian Gulf other than Iran object to ‘Persian’ (=Iran) due to historical associations. Guess who Darius, Xerxes, et al went through to get to the greeks?
“Because all nationalism is essentially stupid”
Nationalism/patriotism is simply love of hearth and home, and the desire to preserve and protect both. Nationalism is a survival strategy that is essential to human well being. This is as true today as ever, if not more so, especially with the growing threat of global UN socialist government.
Like any human value, nationalism can be misused and twisted for evil ends, but that does not make the basic feeling of patriotism wrong, anymore than rape makes all sex wrong.
I’m confused*. If we have to call the sea the Persian Gulf, why aren’t we allowed to call the nearby country Persia, and its language Persian?
[* not really]
Call it the Coalition Gulf and be done with it! 🙂
(j/k)
Such incidents are more common than they seem. Not long ago, Microsoft backed off over a disputed border in a dialog box.
What’s funny here is that the name “Persian Gulf” is the ARAB name. The Arabs in the Arabian peninsula called it the Persian Gulf because it went to Persia – now called Iran. The Persians, back in the day, and many iranians today call it the “Arabian Gulf” because it takes them to Arabia. It was named for where it went, so funnily enough Iran pressured AGAINST the name traditionally used by people living in Iran.
Of course, at least since the Gulf War it makes a lot more sense to say Persian Gulf, on the basis of recognizability.
The term Arabian Gulf did not exist prior to 1960s. With the rise of Arab nationalism, some Arab countries, including the ones bordering the Persian Gulf, started to use the Arabic term (al-Khaleej al-Arabee; Arab Gulf or Arabian Gulf) to refer to this waterway. It is just fare to call it a “fake name” if you no one can find a single map printed prior to 1960 using the term “Arabian Gulf”.
Persian Gulf is Persian Gulf. It’s Not Nationalism
I would like to point out that according to all historical/geographical documents, also United
Nations’ directives, the name of this waterway which separates Iran (Persia) from Saudi Arabia
is the PERSIAN GULF :
UN Links :
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/westasia.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/iran.pdf
http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/docs/escwa.pdf
You can visit this page for some maps & documents and see even Arab scholars until 1960s
used “Al-Khalij Al-Farsi” (Arabic name of the “Persian Gulf”);
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/maps.htm
“Arabian Gulf” in fact is the ancient name of the present-day “Red Sea” (located between Arabia
and Africa).
May I ask you to kindly use the proper term in your website?
Thanks so much for your attention.
Sincerely,
Pejman Akbarzadeh
Member of “ARTISTS WITHOUT FRONTIERS” (Tehran Chapter)
http://artistswithoutfrontiers.com/pakbarzadeh/index.html
Persian Gulf is Persian Gulf. It’s Not Nationalism
I would like to point out that according to all historical/geographical documents, also United
Nations’ directives, the name of this waterway which separates Iran (Persia) from Saudi Arabia
is the PERSIAN GULF :
UN Links :
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/westasia.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/iran.pdf
http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/docs/escwa.pdf
You can visit this page for some maps & documents and see even Arab scholars until 1960s
used “Al-Khalij Al-Farsi” (Arabic name of the “Persian Gulf”);
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/maps.htm
“Arabian Gulf” in fact is the ancient name of the present-day “Red Sea” (located between Arabia
and Africa).
May I ask you to kindly use the proper term in your website?
Thanks so much for your attention.
Sincerely,
Pejman Akbarzadeh
Member of “ARTISTS WITHOUT FRONTIERS” (Tehran Chapter)
http://artistswithoutfrontiers.com/pakbarzadeh/index.html
Persian Gulf is Persian Gulf. It’s Not Nationalism
I would like to point out that according to all historical/geographical documents, also United
Nations’ directives, the name of this waterway which separates Iran (Persia) from Saudi Arabia
is the PERSIAN GULF :
UN Links :
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/westasia.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/iran.pdf
http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/docs/escwa.pdf
You can visit this page for some maps & documents and see even Arab scholars until 1960s
used “Al-Khalij Al-Farsi” (Arabic name of the “Persian Gulf”);
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/maps.htm
“Arabian Gulf” in fact is the ancient name of the present-day “Red Sea” (located between Arabia
and Africa).
Sincerely,
Pejman Akbarzadeh
Member of “ARTISTS WITHOUT FRONTIERS” (Tehran Chapter)
http://artistswithoutfrontiers.com/pakbarzadeh/index.html
Dear Sirs,
According to all historical, geographical and international documents, such as United Nation’s directives, the body of water between Iran and Arabian Peninsula is only called “Persian Gulf”.
For more information, please visit:
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/maps.htm
Let me remind you that “Arabian Gulf” is the old name of “Red Sea”:
http://www.antique-maps-books.com/acatalog/maps_3485_danville_red.htm
Please only use its real and full name.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Yours faithfully,
Reza Zakeri
Here just there is one solucion, you should try to be aware and make clear what you found. There is a very famous frace in the english language; they say: A little knowledge is dangrous. Here we can just say it, as an answer to this unacceptable lie.
Es que hay dos leyes que si respetamos toda va a cambiar, y no habra mas inigualidad en este mundo:
– Primero debemos tratar de decir la verdad.
– Y segundo debemos hacer lo que decimos.
En este problema que sentimos sobre el “Golfo Persico”, solo hay una solucion, debemos leer y enfocar en los libros de historia y tambien de manuescritos en este terreno; en todos los documentos “el mar rojo” se llamaba “Golfo Arabe”; pero “Golfo Persico” siempre se llamba al mar que esta situado dentro de “la peninsula arabe” y “el pais que se llama Iran”.
Esta mentira que ha sido hecho durante los casi 40 anos pasados, solo viene de los movimientos que quieren borrar las cultural locales de las naciones y en lugar de ellas, tratan de crear nuevas ideas y culturas que se llamaran “cultura global”.
Fijate: “La globalizacion en este significado es un riesgo para la humanidad.”
It is not about nationalism only… Just because arabs decided in 1950 ( when Iran had a friendly relations with Isreal under shah’s government) it does not mean they can! it is the principle! forget the “mullas” . Persia was the greatest civilisation there. even though there is a just a name remaining, so let it be! let it remind us of the days when there was peace… there was not Islam..and there was no terrorism! not in my land… not in my persia
For evidence that “Arabia Gulf” has been on maps for centuries, see http://www.arabiangulfmaps.com