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Death of the Comanche There is a reason why the military is one of the few areas in which the State operates successfully. It is Darwinian. Bad soldiers die at a faster rate than good soldiers; bad generals lose battles and are replaced; nations with bad armies cease to exist.
So it is with defense programs in war time. No matter how technically sweet a weapon system may be, it must fulfill an actual current battlefield need. It must be able to survive in the battlefield that actually exists and perform the actual missions required in war as it is, rather than as it was imagined.
So it is with heavy heart we say goodbye to a truly magnificent and now still-born aircraft: the Comanche. The US Army announced it will be cancelled. The money will instead be used to buy more Longbows and Blackhawks and to upgrade survivability across the fleet and especially in the National Guard units.
The SAM’s of Iraq spoke… and the US Army listened.
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Not if some congressmen & defense contractors directly affected by this decision have their say. To kill a weapon program, especially one where you’ve already spend $8 billion already (and additional $2 billion in project cancellation penalities) is very difficult.
Government spending concerns aside, the Comanche was astoundingly cool. I just saw some footage of it on Mail Call and was floored by the way it moved. Hopefully its technology will find its way into the private sector.
Re: Alfred E. Neuman
Coolness aside, I don’t know what kind of civilian application for a stealth scout helicopter there is.
I mean, the Crusader Howitzers is coolness in itself, but what use are there in civilian field for a really large self-propelled howitzers? (BTW, Crusader was canncelled by Rumsfield in ’02).
The original rationale for Commanche was for a simple, single pilot aircraft. That has proven not do-able currently. Feature creep and program bloat have turned it into Apachelite. At which point the rationale for it’s existence had long since departed, except for the various oxen trying to keep from being gored by it’s cancellation.
Nevermind, that the Apache squadron’s performances in Iraq were underwhelming for some roles, considering the resources they consume.
The same amount of $$ can buy a boat load of UAV’s which arguably provide a lot more bang for the buck.
Fred
Coolness aside, I don’t know what kind of civilian application for a stealth scout helicopter there is.
BigFire, if you’ve seen the way the Comanche moves (like flying sideways at 70 mph, or doing unbelievable twists and turns in the air), you would see that there is more to the Comanche (and what it could offer the private sector) than stealth technology. I’m not sure what form improvements might take–firefighting improvements, medical helicopter improvements, whatever–but the thing is amazingly agile.
Trust me, if you see the thing go through its paces, you will understand.
Lowering noise is clearly something civilians like, want, even perhaps need (noise regulations aren’t getting any weaker).
Anyway, I guess the only way I’ll fly a Commanche is through Novalogic *grin*.
The choppers lost in Iraq weren’t downed by SAMs. Unguided RPGs did the trick. Learning the lessons of Viet Nam all over again. That isn’t the only lesson we are having deja vu with.
I served 6 years in the US military; a significant amount of that time with Huey pilots with VN experience. I’d have to assume they are retired and the lessons didn’t get passed.
On another note, the A-10s perform well to this day. The USAF did its best to kill them 2 decades ago…
I find it admirable that Army killed this program on its own. Usually, a military branch has to be tied down and pummeled into submission by some other government agency before a bloated or unnecessary weapons program can be axed. That being said, I too thought the Comanche was cool.
As a US taxpayer, I understand that not every weapons development program will live up to its potential. I also understand that in this day of multi-decade development periods, not every system will be relevant or necessary to the military’s needs by the time of its completion. All I can do is shrug and hope that there will be some worthwhile spin-off technologies. If the military didn’t roll the dice every now and again on potentially difficult weapons programs, I doubt the US would have the battlefield superiority it now enjoys.
If it is true that all the losses were due to RPG’s, then the upgrades mentioned in the press conference are pretty useless. They talked of chaff and flare’s and the like, which are of about zero use against an RPG.
Also, I’d have to say that it represents some fairly good shooting on the part of the Saddamites as in at least one case (the Chinook) the chopper was definitely not sitting still. I don’t think the RPG was really intended for shooting down rapidly moving aerial targets… The Somalian’s had good luck because the choppers were forced to hover in broad daylight.
I’d be interested in any further information you have on this since it is not, to my knowledge, generally available information and details have in fact been ducked by DOD officials. (Which I can understand to some extent.)
In any case, the RPG will never catch on with duck hunters…
Lol, lets hope Novalogic keeps the series alive even without a real-world Comanche in the running anymore. I’ve always enjoyed the Comanche series of helicopter flight sims.
Apaches got nabbed by iraquis with RPG´s and AA mgs because they were flying Nap-of-earth, SAM’s were near if they just got higher. It was truly the swan song of a large independent Apache heli formation.Note that if it wasnt the Apache armour/redundancy many will had been destroyed. Later a combined operation with artillery fires to kill/supress Iraqui infantery, Apaches got free ride again. Only in some special mission or in combined arms operation Attack Helis proved.
Dale true chaff and flares do nothing to RPG´s, a couple of smoke pots in landing zones on another hand… but i guess they were talking about some helis that got attacked by SA-7´s.
In the race between offense and defense, I think the offense is currently having the upper hand.
When some half trained peasant can shoot down a multi-million dollar piece of equipment, it’s really not a good sign.
UAVs can do the same job, without the same risks to personnel, and perhaps at lower cost. They’re still multi-million dollar wonders, but at least not to the same extent as the Comanche.
Hell, I’m still puking over the Stryker… Now that’s a program which should have been shut down.
The Army is not allowed to fly armed fixed winged aircraft. Helicoptors are the only choice. The A-10 is a better tool for the job, but those belong to the Air Force, and they do not want them.
Which is a sad shame about the A-10’s. I live up the road from their home base in AZ, and they are truly amazing with the stuff they do in training flights.
While the most feared sound in Iraq came to be that of A-10’s circling overhead, here in Tucson it really helps one sleep well at night.
But they really do belong over in the Army. But I”m sure our Congress critters here would resist that, unless you promised to just swap in Army personnel (or move those units to the other service wholesale and leave them here). So it’s not just the service branchs resisting the move, it’s local politicians and business people here too.
Hmm.
RE: A-10
It’s amazing what people have gone through trying to convince the USAF to keep the A-10. The USAF has gotten billions of dollars in additional funding, extra fighter wings and new weapons projects just for keeping the A-10 operational.
It’s kinda funny. Any number of generals have been pushing the USAF to spend less money per aircraft and to fly more aircraft. There was once a “light fighter” program that got canned. The purpose behind this program was a light, highly maneuverable and *cheap* fighter. It wouldn’t be as capable as a full blown fighter, which is all-weather and all-mission capable, but it would be highly effective within a fairly broad range of conditions.
Too bad the USAF canned it and very bad that they’re canning the A-10. Still it’s possible that newer weapons and UCAVs will fit that slot.
We can only hope. Otherwise this could really end up sucking.
I’m confused. The Comanche program was a great success! It diverted billions of dollars in taxpayer funds to military contractors, without those contractors having to deliver a single production unit! It kept thousands of people employed for over a decade! Mission accomplished.