Many thanks to Glenn Reynolds for pointing out this Reuters story. It seems Polish force have found some brand spanking new 2003 dated French Roland missiles in an Iraqi arms dump.
It just goes to show: where there’s a customer, there’s a way.
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Poles find new Roland missilesOctober 4th, 2003 |
 67 comments to Poles find new Roland missiles |
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Little Green Footballs had the post from Reuters in Warsaw before it got to mainstream radar screens.
Bush has been dispirited since he grasped he would get NO French assistance to pass a convenient UN resolution -allowing international & legal, military help from countries like India, unless Gauleiter Bremer is kicked out from Iraq in the closest future & to the additional condition that power is quickly returned to Iraqis. The neocons clique refuse to grant self-ownership to Iraqis. All they want is exercising firm control over Iraqi oil to pay back their lunatic expenses engaged for the Bushist war. This is why they finally decided to send 10.000 more troops although they had claimed there was no need for more soldiers.
At the same time genuine concerns are mounting in the USA about cynical, deliberate prevarication (the lack of casus belli + the forgery of a false one) issued & orchestrated by the government. The astronomical Weapons-of-Mass-Deception scandal is activating a huge amount of pressure upon Washington warmongers. It is therefore highly desirable for the US occupier to “find” anything to save the face. If what is “found” is French, then it is supreme delight. What a coincidence !
No big deal: US troop rotation can no longer be ensured (6.000 US soldiers have been evacuated from Iraq, including 1.500 severely injured) either by the US itself or by UN-law-abiding countries. The very concept of US long-term invasion has now proven to be preposterous.
Multilateralism re-enforcement is just a question of time.
It goes without saying that Roland 2 & Roland 3 production was stopped (1988 for the former, 1993 for the latter) long before Bush “found” a French missile assembled “in 2003”.
France hasn’t exported any Roland missile since 1990 (UN ban on weapon exports to Iraq).
Of course Kodiak’s reflexive ‘the world does not turn unless France in involved’ spin on this is to be expected. The French state is a friend to mass murdering tyrants and dictators the world over, from Radovan Karadzic to Saddam Hussain (who they worked tirlessly to keep in power) to Robert Mugabe, so I can think of no reason whatsoever to allow the French state any role in Iraq or anywhere else.
In any case, much like the UN, there are few situation anywhere not made worse by involving the extraordinarily corrupt French national institutions. Moreover, The French State is militarily, politically and intellectually insignificent when it comes to real power politics modern world, which makes them laughable even on their own terms.
So Kodiak,
Are you saying:
a) This story is a hoax?
OR
b) The story is genuine but the Roland missiles were manufactured and supplied by a country other than France?
I am not simply trying to goad you. I would sincerely like to know your views.
It would be surprising if the Roland missiles are out of production because according to this page the Germans and French are introducing an upgraded launch system for the missiles.
Perry’s pure fury about French effrontery to criticise Bushist folly & -even worse!- to *ACT* against it (with pretty much success for that matter), is highly symptomatic of this rampant, acute unilateralopathy that’s wreaking havoc upon some Anglospheric circles –from the upper Bushist brainwasheteria down to minor French-bashing, nonsense-barking cyberpubs…
I am not going to inventory the litany of US crimes once more. The list is too long & known to everybody. But perhaps would a mere sample of remarkable British contributions to World happiness be greatly appreciated?
1755: deportation & killing of thousand Acadians from Acadie to Louisiana
1770: massacre of Bostonian civilians at the Old State House
1848: Ireland is starving to death (1,3 million killed) due to British predatory ruhtlessness
1919: massacre of peaceful Indian demonstrators in Amritsar (380 slaughtered)
1937: former “king” Edward VIII collaborate with the Nazis (later spent some time in Franco’s Spain – 1940)
1993: Ahmici massacre in Bosnia-Herzegovina (96 Muslim civilians) with the blessing of the blind UK army + involvement of British intelligence
Not to mention slavery, the Boers’ war in South Africa & numerous exactions committed in China…
David,
So far, it is *impossible* to believe anything originating from Bush’s side: too many lies, & you know that damn well (see Phony Bliar for instance).
As for the miraculous French missiles, wait & see.
Kodiak, the delusional bullshit you swallow and regurgitate only makes you look like a fool. I know that you French, as impotent and pathetic as you have become, need something to grasp on to, but it’s starting to get ridiculous. You might want to stop reading Le Monde and start opening your eyes.
Kodiak,
So you are saying that the story is a hoax. Okay.
“As for the miraculous French missiles, wait & see.”
Wait & see what?
David: ulterior & crispy development…
David,
I’m surprised at your insistent inquiries, as if you don’t beleive the Fernch. Unthinkable.
Kodiak just stated that there was an embargo on arms sales to Iraq since 1990. Ergo: the Freanch did NOT supply those Rolands. Can’t you see it? The French are a multilateralist, UN respecting nation. Those Rolands must have been planted there by the Bushist warmongers to discredit multilateralism.
What Kodiak fails to mention vis a vis the expulsion of the Acadians is that the British learn from their mistakes. The ships’ captains who transported the Acadians were so affected by their plight that as a result the French in Quebec were allowed to keep their own laws and religion after the Treaty of Paris and we all know what a success France en Amerique has been. Not only is Quebec today stagnating in decline but those wonderful francais en amerique have legislated the most draconian hate laws in the western world making it a criminal act to post the English language publiclyr A neat little biblical parable sums it up well, Kodiak. It’s all about motes and beams. Oh yes, did I fail to mention Cote d’Ivoire and Rwanda?
Jacob,
Yes, I know how Kodiak tries to operate. Just every so often I like to ‘bust his balls’ a little.
By the way, I have read of another mass murder attack in Israel today. Keep safe.
What Kodiak seems to think is that if I criticize the French state, that must mean I think the British State is therefore wonderful… and hence his reply is to come up with a hilarious list of historical British wickedness as if that:
And by the way, Kodiak is talking through his rear about Ahmici, something I am in a position to know a great deal more than him.
I guess he is just so statist that he cannot understand that, no matter how many times he is told, if someone like me thinks all states suck and the extent to which they suck is just a matter of degree (just that his precious France more than most because it is particularly hypocritical), telling me in effect ‘The British State sucks’ or ‘The American State sucks’ is just repeating what I write all the time. Multilateralism is therefore just getting more preposterous political groups to do something, rather than one preposterous political group do something.
Go figure.
I wrote that story in a particular way to see if a certain ideological person would see it through their particular spectacles rather than reading what it said.
I was right about the reaction I’d get.
Please note the article very specifically is stated in terms of a customer getting what they want, ie embargoes don’t work. Even if France was excessively careful about the new Rolands, someone would succeed in acquiring and supplying them if the price was right.
At no time and place in history, at any level of risk of retribution, has any form of law against contraband succeeded, not even with public beheadings as the punishment.
Yet another reason we had to take the m*****f***** out.
Kodiak,
It is slightly painful to have to watch as you collapse into stereotype each time the subject of foriegn policy is introduced.
Neither the UK nor the US is responsible for once-great France’s long, sad decline. Our wealth and influence do not come at its expense; its loss of those things is entirely the result of its own poor choices.
France must stop allowing its bizarre and unhealthy obsession with America to distract it from the real problems it faces — its abuse should be directed at the vast, bloated state which feeds at its jugular.
France must begin to address the causes of its decline, not to simply obfuscate its appearence by weeping about the unfair success of the English-speaking world.
Hmm. … looks like some humble pie will have to be eaten vis a vis Kodiak:
Apparently Poland has apologised to France for its error.
Check it out here.
Merde …..
Millie Woods: Not only is Quebec today stagnating in decline (…)
Thank you for worrying about Québec. I think they’re all right. Anyway they are stalwart resistants to uniformity & Canadians showed healthy resistance to US unilateralism.
Abby: France must stop allowing its bizarre and unhealthy obsession with America to distract it from the real problems it faces
Isn’t there any Francophobia in that heaven of fairness & truth that the USA epitomises? Is it anti US to notice that sincerity, credibility, coherence & competence can no longer qualify US foreign policy (if they ever had)? Is it typical French or Russian, German, Canadian, South African, South Korean, Italian, Spanish, British, Lebanese, Palestinian, Turkish, Greek, Chilean, Venezuelan etc too?
You allow yourself to rule who’s entitled to benefit from democracy or freedom. This country is primitive. This other one is defiant. The third one is despicable. The fourth one is risible. The fifth one is full of oil. The sixth one might be a threat in 450 years. The seventh one is declining. The eighth one is socialist. The ninth one is poor. The tenth one refuses globalisation. When the *beeeeeeeep* are you going to leave the World live their lives ???
The Rolands in question were in burial cannisters labled “2003”. They were probably manufactured years ago. Since Rolands and all high end military armaments have serial numbers, only France knows their true point of origination.
Kodiak, wake up and smell reality. The US has just achieved the most lopsided vistory in the history of modern warfare. Iraq’s future is what the US determines it to be. To confuse a few casualties and terror bombings with a quagmire or loss is the height of delusion. But delusion is all France has left now that military, economic, technological and cultural mediocrity has marginalized it.
Perry: (…) *hilarious* list of historical British wickedness (…)
No comments.
Reid of America: Iraq’s future is what the US determines it to be.
It shall never be. After France, more nations will stand up & kick your butt untill your grasp it’s more important you come up with US alarming, increasing poverty than inflicting more poverty on others.
France has numerous challengers, China included.
“Iraq’s future is what the US determines it to be”
So, no weapons of mass destruction AND no democracy.
Welcome to the New World Order.
Dale,
A fisherman worthy of the name is quick to use the priest on his catch. He doesn’t let it flap back into the water, with the hook transferred to his own flesh. But if the Rolands story ends up as Charles’ link suggests, our statist, that’s what is going to happen to you.
Now, I can’t speak for Kodiak. But I have been bearded twice lately on this blessed blog, once as a bad Roman historian (true) and once as a crazed social authoritarian (absolutely no comment). That happens to be fine by me. I am a minarchist libertarian with, it seems, late Rothbardian tendencies but also a stubborn bugger who wants to free the world from received ideas.
As the Dutch used to say, “We can take it.”
Maybe Kodiak is a good guy who can take it all in his stride. But it isn’t your place to pose the question. He is here, like all of us, to speak but, I hope, also to listen. He is not here to be reeled out of the water for sport. I hope he finds the words not only to slither back into the Loire but also leave the hook where it belongs.
Allo Kodiak, why can’t I worry about Quebec? After all I am a Quebecker and I know at first hand having taught at UdeM for years how the techno/scientific modern infrastructure of the province uses the English language to survive as a modern state while hypocritically legislating the use of the same language in public signage into criminality. I also know being of the academic persuasion that the use of English to function is widespread throughout francophonie. So why not own up to the arrogant hypocrisy of the French in Quebec openly criminalising the use of English while using it as their own life support system. Also why remain silent about the criminality of the French in their former(?) African colonies and client states.
“It shall never be. After France, more nations will stand up & kick your butt untill your grasp it’s more important you come up with US alarming, increasing poverty than inflicting more poverty on others.”
Really, how about a little side bet. Shoot me an email and I’ll get you the means to make a deposit to my PayPal account, because I see some easy money here.
Meanwhile, you might want to check out this little piece on France inflicting poverty on the Ivory Coast, among other things.
A_V: “So, no weapons of mass destruction AND no democracy.”
No !
No WMD AND democracy, implemented, supervised & monitored by the UN (including the USA).
Millie Woods: (…) the arrogant hypocrisy of the French in Quebec openly criminalising the use of English (…)
Your totally unsubstantiated outburst is more likely to be ascribed to ignorance rather than to maliciousness. Anglophones (from British Columbia through Ontario & Québec up to the Maritimes) have *ALWAYS* sought to eradicate the use of French. Buy any book in Canadian history, law & politics. This is Québécois deserve to be carefully listened to in their fight for identity & their struggle against uniformity.
Vive le Québec libre !
Je me souviens
Kodiak says “It shall never be. After France, more nations will stand up & kick your butt untill your grasp it’s more important you come up with US alarming, increasing poverty than inflicting more poverty on others.”
France kicked America’s butt? What alternate universe are you living in? What goes on at the UN is of no real consequence. If what happened there mattered, Israel wouldn’t exist and the US wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. Let’s get back to the real world. France made power grab and lost badly. It tried to get the EU to gang up on the US. Except for Germany and Belgium, the rest of the EU backed the US or was nuetral. The mass media tries to portray the US as being isolated. Actually, it is France that has isolated itself. Russia and Germany are mending ties with the US but France is still trying to assert it’s power. Diplomatic games are no match for real power. France is in deep state of delusion about it’s place in the world. A security council veto doesn’t make it a great nation. It is just a relic of a bygone era. By the way, has France’s nuclear aircraft carrier been able to get out of port without breaking down yet?
“A security council veto doesn’t make it a great nation. It is just a relic of a bygone era.”
That security council veto itself was granted to France after WW2 by the US and Britain out of pure sentimentality and generosity of the victors, for old times’ sake, not for any French contribution to allied victory or her military or economic power.
Nevertheless we owe M. Kodiak an apology for ridiculing him and France over the Roland matter – turns out there was nothing there, just some old irons that a nimble Iraqi (the denouncer) made a bundle off.
Having read this thread from top to bottom I would very much like to see if Dale thinks that Kodiak deserves an apology for the original post.
And personally Dale, I think your post was open to another, rather more vicious interpretation.
Eamon
Eamon asks if Kodiak deserves an apology. No!
His initial comment can be distilled down to the following: The US is in a quagmire and without France’s OK at the UN it will lose the war.
This is a common European opinion that is more wishful thinking than reality. The only reason Bush went to the UN for a new resolution was to outflank the Democrats in congress. Bush needs congress to approve a new spending bill for the Iraq occupation. Bush knows the Democrats will try to obstruct his request and talk about the need for allies to help. So Bush went to the UN. Bush will either get the UN to pass a resolution that is acceptable to him or he will blame France for obstruction. Bush will then accuse the Democrats of surrendering our foreign policy to France if they insist on more UN involvement. Americans won’t stand for French intereference and congress will approve his request.
The US has 1.4 million in the military. Currently, less than 10% are in Iraq. The claim that the US can’t move on and win without additional help is patently false.
” The claim that the US can’t move on and win without additional help is patently false.”
The question is: what is the meaning of “win” ?
The whole region of the Middle East is highly volatile, violent and unstable. It will not be easily tamed or transformed. Establishing a western style democracy in Iraq might prove impossible. On the other hand it is far from certain that the public in the US will support a long term commitment. So the future for Iraq is far from clear.
Kodiak’s claim that the UN with French help can fix this, or that they are in any form relevant, is of course, nonesense.
Jacob comments “So the future for Iraq is far from clear.”
Absolutely! But the staying power of the US is underrated by it’s detractors. They like to talk about Vietnam. How about Europe, Japan and Korea where the US has been for 50 plus years and imposed political regimes.
The US has made a major strategic decision to remake the Middle East. It is very likely 10 years from today the US will have a large military prescence there. It is also very likely that Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia will have regime changes in the next few years. Either through internal collapse or US military engagement.
The Muslim world screwed up big time when they thought the US was a paper tiger. They would have had much more success going after France.
Of course nobody spotted the obvious tabloid strapline:
‘Poland finds Roland’
Eamonn: I never claimed France supplied the weapons to Iraq. Nor do I believe even Chirac would be that dumb. What I do believe, and what the article states clearly, is that if there is a customer with loads of dosch, someone will manage to acquire that which they desire in exchange for that cash pile. Saddam had piles and piles of money. Therefore, QED, he could pretty much get anything he wanted. If he had a new Roland, it would have been because someone legally exported it to someone who then shipped it to someone else who than had it disappear out of a warehouse…
It’s not terribly relevant to the actual article whether they were Rolands or not. For enough money someone could probably heist top US weapons systems. I’m sure it was tried and I wouldn’t be surprised at *anything* that turns up in Saddams’ armoury. Hell he left the whole *country* as an ammo dump.
So no. If Kodiak was upset it was on his own misperception. I admit to expecting him to read it incorrectly and I got a bit of a laugh out of it. If anything, Kodiak should be more careful in his readiness to attack.
“The US has made a major strategic decision to remake the Middle East.”
This strategic decision was made by the president, but it is not accepted unanimously in the US. In fact I would say – 50% support it and 50% bitterly oppose it. So the issue is: the staying power of the US, it’s resolve and commitment, it’s political will. It is not a problem of disponible resources (military) or physical capability – it’s a question of politics – resolve vs. isolationism.
Kodiak,
Please forgive me if my words have been uncivil. I do not hate France nor celebrate its distress — quite the contrary! I first saw France as a schoolgirl and the infatuation still lingers.
For me it is a tragedy to see it wallowing in self-pity and imagined insults; to see it burnishing the hope that a coalition failure will restore its own lost glory. A failure in Iraq would be a global tragedy, yet a sucess could outshine even the triumph of the German or Japanese reconstruction.
As for freedom and democracy around the world, I harbor a bevy of romantic notions on this subject and my hope is that the entire world might be freed in my lifetime (stop laughing). Absurdly optimistic? Of course, yes (now it is I who am the stereotype). But our odds would be much better if France were a generous partner rather than a jealous, spiteful heckler.
Jacob says “it’s a question of politics – resolve vs. isolationism”
Can’t argue with that. But I think non-Americans don’t fully sense the sense of rage in the US at Islamic fundamentalists. The leading Democratic Presidential candidates, while criticizing Bush’s handling of the war, all say there is no alternative to winning now that we are engaged.
If there is another major terror attack in the US, another Middle East nation (Syria or Iran) is going to be militarily defeated. The Bush administration is laying the political groundwork for taking out Syria and Iran. Our European allies don’t understand or accept that US won’t allow Muslims to attack us like they are attacking Israel. They will change their minds when they are on the receiving end. When some Islamist flies a plane into or blows up a dirty nuke bomb in the Louvre maybe even France will change their tune.
I’ve a question: These Roland missiles- it says in the revamped news item…
Is thi
” Industrial sources in France said 2003 was the year the missiles were checked in Iraq by an Iraqi company, not the year of manufacture.”
???
What does this mean? How does this French “industrial source” KNOW that the missiles were checked by an “Iraqi company” unless they were involved with the said Iraqi company! ???
Also – who is this French “industrial source” It wouldn’t be Roland themselves or a subsiduary/sub-contrated company would it… or even the French government or both of them perhaps?
It just strikes me as an odd little statement of “Fact” about something that is supposedly a surprise for the French.
Calm down, Kodiak. You know and I know that nothing is happening in francophonie and the linguistic sharia of the Quebec political elite isn’t going to change anything particularly when the whole life support of modern states today is the English language. And don’t rant about what you don’t know – i.e. my country, Canada. The population of Quebec is declining. The politicians are alarmed and muttering darkly about a bleak future for the French fact in Canada. In the past thirty years, the percentage of francos has gone from 25% to 20%. Ontario and Quebec which had equal populations at that time are now vastly unequal. Now Ontario has 10 million and is flourishing while Quebec remains at 6 million and is stagnating. Quebec has mismanaged its resources with a typically anal-retentive nyah,nyah we’re top banana French attitude when it was the only available source for some of its mineral and energy wealth. Now that other suppliers with a more congenial approach to customers are around, Quebec has lost market share and wonders why. And by the way you still haven’t dealt with French perfidy in Africa of recent times. Vive Cote d’Ivoire libre. Je me souviens – living in the past, that’s the ticket for a successful twenty-first century, n’est-ce pas?
France wants a role for itself and the U.N in Iraq. What does France bring to the table that it can offer in regards to helping with problems in an Islamic country? According to the CIA country profile, France has an Islamic population of 5%-10%! France has its own problems with these folks that they have so far shown no aptitude in dealing with. France is occupied and they don’t even know it. How soon before anybody thinks they finally get it?
Reid of America
What goes on at the UN is of no real consequence. Is it? Look at Bush’s repeated & desperate attempts to court today what he threw to hell yesterday. YOU are living in absolute nonsense.
Except for Germany and Belgium, the rest of the EU backed the US or was nuetral. HA HA HA HA HA HA !!! Isn’t it really hard to admit defeat?
A security council veto doesn’t make it a great nation. I agree. With or without French veto, multilateralism would have prevailed anyway because French views are shared almost unanimously. Hard for you to swallow that too, innit?
The only reason Bush went to the UN for a new resolution was to outflank the Democrats in congress Another instance, if needed, of US ***unilateralopathy***. Merci.
The claim that the US can’t move on and win without additional help is patently false. You should know that the whole Iraqi story is like théâtre de boulevard (ie: the husband coming home earlier than expected, his wife in disarray & the lover hiding in the closet). Why not wait until the red curtain is finally dropped back on stage before dreaming aloud what the end could be like?
(…) when they thought the US was a paper tiger. The US isn’t a paper tiger. It’s a fat, ailing, flabby, three-legged, hornless, mooing cow.
But I think non-Americans don’t fully sense the sense of rage in the US at Islamic fundamentalists. I think you should substantiate this kind of cliché to my numerous country fellows who lost their relatives due to bombings perpetrated by islamofascists well before 9/11. ***UNILATERALOPATHY*** strikes once more !
When some Islamist flies a plane into or blows up a dirty nuke bomb in the Louvre maybe even France will change their tune. Thank you very much for your consideration indeed. The fact is –sentenced as I am to repeat it for the umpteenth time- France has already successfully thwarted such an attack in 1995. A plane was hijacked to be crashed on the Eiffel Tower (the islamofascists had heavy weaponry, not just forks & knives like the 19 ones who hit the Twins & the Pentagon) but the French succeeded in rerouting the plane to Marseilles & to kill all terrorists there. France DOES know what terrorism mean. I don’t wish your country to know as much.
Jacob
Pure sentimentality and generosity aren’t exactly the most fitting words to characterise Anglo-Saxon generous foreign policy. France was given a veto because she was then considered an undefiant puppet. Bad bet.
The whole region of the Middle East is highly volatile, violent and unstable. Good premiss.
(…) that the UN with French help can fix this, or that they are in any form relevant, is of course, nonesense. Wrong conclusion.
This strategic decision was made by the president, but it is not accepted unanimously in the US. Gosh! It’s the second time in a couple of days that I agree with you…
Abby: don’t worry, I haven’t been particularly smart either. I, too, agree that now –things being what they unfortunately are, a failure in Iraq would be a global tragedy. Believe it or not, I don’t think France is great or going through no difficulties. I think you misinterpret French attitude about Iraq and might tend to amalgamate them with French chauvinism: our country’s interests are not identical to what Bush thinks his country’s are. They simply diverge. Again we’re not jealous about the USA. Your country is too far away & too different. There’s an amicable tradition of mutual bashing, for sure, but the stuff stops there (except economical competition in some areas). Finally, I, too, am disappointed about the USA, only more so than what you are regarding France. Only more so…
Millie Woods: what a florilege!
the linguistic sharia of the Quebec political elite
Quebec has mismanaged its resources with a typically anal-retentive nyah,nyah we’re top banana French attitude
French perfidy in Africa
Thank you for helping me save my energy.
The best bit is undoubtedly this one: when the whole life support of modern states today is the English language. Vraiment trop facile pour moi! ***UNILATERALOPATHY*** strikes once more !
Swede: According to the CIA country profile, France has an Islamic population of 5%-10%! Why did you type the ***!***? Is there anything wrong with being Islamic or originating from Islamic tradition? Being French has nothing to do with religion.
France is occupied and they don’t even know it. You’re obviously racist & illiterate. I suggest you redirect your hate towards the UK. You know the homeland of Hamza, where terrorist groups may hold press conferences threatening British people & where a beautiful mosque –the largest in Europe- has just been put up recently.
LA REPUBLIQUE ET L’ISLAM
Kodiak isn’t as well informed about his own country’s predicament as he should be.
He writes:
“Is there anything wrong with being Islamic or originating from Islamic tradition? Being French has nothing to do with religion.”
The second sentence is an expression of a pious republican myth that might have applied to Catholics, Protestants and Jews but does NOT hold water where Islam is concerned. It is not France that will assimilate the Muslims. It is the Muslims who will assimilate France.
As to the percentage of Muslims in France: unfortunately, the domination of political correctness in French demographics makes it quite difficult to come up with precise figures. I recommend that Kodiak (and other interested parties) read a fascinating contribution by David Orland to every discerning Right Wing Bastard’s favourite website – VDARE.The article reveals how belief in France’s myth that it is still “an indivisible, secular, democratic and social republic” has rendered the country’s demographic statistics next to useless. Read it here.
[http://www.vdare.com/misc/orland_racial_privacy.htm]
In fact, political correctness has now become so ascendant in France that the science of demography itself is considered by many of the intelligentsia to be an “expression of racism”. A number of researchers at France’s National Institute for Demographic Studies (INED) have even been demonised in the press as crypto-fascists or born-again ‘natalists’ for having the temerity to express their concern about population ageing and the low birth rate. The demagogy against demography knows no bounds. The leftist rag Charlie-Hebdo thundered: ‘From natalism to fascism, there is only one step’. The logic is that because the National Front opposes a sub-replacement birth rate, any discussion of demographic problems is off-limits for ‘tous Paris’.
Some years ago, when Michele Tribalat — a senior research fellow at INED — went so far as to distinguish between ‘Francais de souche’ and French nationals of foreign origin in a study focusing on social exclusion, the very audacity of making a distinction that fell foul of the republican mantra of ‘la France une et indivisible’ led to her being publicly denounced by a politically correct colleague, Herve Le Bras. Her crime? She was accused of “calling in question the republican model which considers nationality as the only acceptable criterion.” According to Le Bras, even recognising the very existence of different ethnic groups in France was tantamount to fostering “racial prejudice” and “xenophobic drift” (“la derive xenophobe”). In other words: if the facts don’t tally with your world view, declare the facts to be heresy and vilify anyone who refuses to toe the line as an enemy of the people. Theory, in the ideology of PC, always trumps reality.
Remember that recent baloney in the mass media about the so-called French ‘baby-boom’? All that boilerplate like “there’s still one area where France is in a league of its own: making babies” (BBC News) and the pseudo-factoid that “French women are having more children every year” (also BBC News)? But there are, after all, French women and French women. Some wear clothes. Others are incarcerated in burqas or veils and look more like something out of a scary movie than human beings. Yet nobody dared publicly to ask the question every thinking person was putting to himself in private: were these baby-boom babies born in ‘la France profonde’ , or were they born in the occupied territories, such as the Muslim ghetto of Seine-Saint-Denis?As David Orland puts it in his essay: “as long as statistics are not kept by race and ethnicity, the identity of France’s prolific new mothers will remain a mystery”. Presumably he’s being ironical. Or let’s say that it’s a mystery but you don’t have to go to wizard school to learn how to decipher it.
And why does nobody dare ask the question that really matters? How many French kids are being born as opposed to how many ‘French’ kids? Because that’s the kind of question Jean-Marie Le Pen might ask, which means that nobody else in France may do so without being branded as a tainted source by the Big Brothers of the cultural establishment. The French may be terrified by the slow-motion Islamic invasion that is balkanising their beautiful country and turning it into an intolerant, racist and multicultural menagerie. The French may be terrified by the Islamist barbarians inside the gate, the ‘hooded hordes’ of epsilon-minus semi-morons who have started torching the synagogues and molesting the Jews and will end up torching the churches and exterminating the infidels, just as they have always done, in keeping with the dictates of the Koran. But the French are even more terrified of being accused of contagion with the ‘la bête immonde’ known as the Front National.
So perhaps it’s Kodiak’s terror of falling foul of the intellectual establishment’s ideology that clouds his judgement. At any rate, he should do his homework before be starts yelling from the virtual soap-box.
Oops sorry for the italicisation of the text;
For whatever it’s worth, the government of Poland has withdrawn the claim and apologized to the French.
Goodness me. I am surprised!
Charles Copeland,
Your demonising, risible (& off-topic !) attempt to depict France as a pathetic joke taken aback by her own “myths”, is farcical & disappointing in every ways.
1/ You copypaste antediluvian bits of a “controversy” that’s been settled once for good ages ago.
2/ You too are racist: “(…) might have applied to Catholics, Protestants and Jews but does NOT hold water where Islam is concerned”. Why doesn’t it? Would you mind at least explaining why a mosque-nongoing, ultrashort-skirted, 50-cm-platform-heeled, gum-chewing, chain-smoking, Parisian-slang-loudspeaking & outrageously lipsticked French girl of Muslim background should be excluded from French community? And why should a 8-cm-thick-spectacled, PhD-collecting, boring-to-death, atheist bookworm called Fatima be segregated just because her parents believe in allah? And why should Kamel be considered a non-assimilable islamofascist because he’s doing ramadan once every two years? And why should observant Muslims be disparaged by the State just because they foolishly believe in a ridiculous cult?
3/ In a previous discussion with R C Dean, Guy Herbert & Joe, I have presented why the “concept” of racial grouping is inherently flawed & contrary to Human dignity. The “concept” of religious grouping is of course equally flawed & undignified when applied to free Citizens of a Republic. I’m not going to re-explain to you. That your inability to grasp that simple obviousness has you rave at length about political correctness in French demographics is your own story, not ours, fortunately.
4/ What you call a “PC” “myth” –ie: La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l’égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens, sans distinction d’origine, de race ou de religion. Elle respecte toutes les croyances. (Article premier de la Constitution), is something written in the very commencement of the upper body of French law: the Constitution. It is not a “myth” & it’s not “PC”; it is what the French want above all other things. You may disagree & find it incorrect, but that’s your problem.
5/ It is normal that data-hungry stat researchers surrender to their own occupational atavism, just like florists would like all people to love flowers & butchers are devastated by the concept of vegetarianism. Still there’s something common prevailing: “La France est une République indivisible, laïque (…)”. And Charlie Hebdo has nothing to do with it.
6/ “How many French kids are being born as opposed to how many ‘French’ kids?”
Do you want us to develop Lebensborns?
7/ Finally, secularist citizen-approach (Res Publica) is no ideology to me. It’s commonsense. It’s a tool to ensure that anyone is granted same consideration irrespective of their creed or lack of it. It’s also a healthy retort to the pathetic ones who still believe “race” or “ethnicity” are prevailing over self-ownership.
Kodiak, I have read this thread, and not once have you given any reasons or evidence to dispute Dale Amon’s original story. Not one.
Jonathon,
I think the Poles themselves retracting the story as Steven Den Beste linked is probably all that Kodiak needs on this occasion.
For whatever it’s worth, the government of Poland has withdrawn the claim and apologized to the French.
Posted by Steven Den Beste at October 5, 2003 11:35 AM
I think I’m going to choke. old thread, but I am compelled to respond.
1937: former “king” Edward VIII collaborate with the Nazis (later spent some time in Franco’s Spain – 1940)
He got packed off to the Bahamas. The French Nazophiles were a little more pro active in their jackboot loving, shooting Americans attempting to fight the Rommel in Africa as they landed on the beaches of North Africa in fact.
My god, if its a list of French “humanitarian triumphs” you want there is plenty of ammo to be had. A whiff of grapeshot, anyone?
I think I’m going to choke. old thread, but I am compelled to respond.
1937: former “king” Edward VIII collaborate with the Nazis (later spent some time in Franco’s Spain – 1940)
He got packed off to the Bahamas. The French Nazophiles were a little more pro active in their jackboot loving, shooting Americans attempting to fight the Rommel in Africa as they landed on the beaches of North Africa in fact.
My god, if its a list of French “humanitarian triumphs” you want there is plenty of ammo to be had. A whiff of grapeshot, anyone?
The Last Toryboy,
First, drop the bottle: you’re posting twice mate.
The French Nazophiles -as you put it- were indeed a bunch of loathsome, brainwashed creatures. But maybe the history in Northern Africa is bit too far beyond your reach for you to grasp that without the French Romel would just have spent nice holidays while having fun with US troops.
Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe.
Arab & French proverb.
Kodiak,
It is a majority of Muslims and Arabs themselves — residing in your country, formal citizens of your country — who resist assimilation/integration.
After all, they call people like you ‘les francais’ — as opposed to themselves.
You grovel, prostrate and brownnose yourself to them — and they despise you all the more.
Can’t really blame them.
France – RIP
Damn that bottle. Or more accurately, damn my minimalist Lynx browser for making me double post!
If browsers were governments, a minarchy would be Lynx.
Charles: I find your nihilism absolutely tragic to the core. You also have no faith in future. Your lack of ambition is serious too. Your ignorance of French history & specificity is apocalyptic. This country was never a völkisch nation as Germany or other ones have been. Needless to say you are completely inconsistent with libertarian dogma, on top of that.
TLB: LOL.
Hey Kodiak, go spout that happy multi-culti PC crap in Les Zones Cities and see how much love you get from those ‘perfectly equal’ Muslims. I’ve walked through the worst urban hells in the US tripping my balls off, and the pictures of Les Cities scare the crap out of me.
If they are all so wonderful, how come those damned hellholes got built with only one (or a very few) access road in and out?
Very nicely designed if you intend on eventually slaughtering the inhabitants if they try to leave. “Oh sure, ship in a bunch of Algerians, just make sure we can box them in their ghettos when they get out of hand”. The architecture SCREAMS it.
But of course no enlightened, sophisticated French politician of decades past would have specified such a design criteria, that would smack of[MESSAGE ABORTED, GODWIN’S RULE VIOLATION]
David Mercer, always good to know ignorance is alive & kicking… did you watch “La Haine” maybe? (actually, probably not, ‘cos you might have seen the reality that much of France sees; arab, black, white, jewish… whatever, kids getting on ok), or some alarmist documentary on a right-wing channel?
Visit France, check out some off these fearsome places. Believe me, they’re a lot less frightening & ghettoised than your average US city, where often the delineation between black & white areas is still shockingly obvious.
David Mercer,
What you call “Les Cities” is what we call *les cités* = a bunch of concrete blocks planted in nowhere suburbs.
Yes, I DO LOVE to consider ALL my citizen-fellows as perfect equals, regardless their religion & all that.
The unhuman, low-income, suburbian decorum is currently going through a huge scheme of either destruction/reconstruction or rehabilitation/restoration/renovation. I’d like to see if the USA (4 times & half as populous as France) has spent ONSE SINGLE CENTIME OF EURO to help the US left-behinds -that are currently trying to survive in that OCEAN OF POVERTY, get better living conditions. You know: compassionate conservatism… HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!
How about, I’ll shut up about how fucked up france is, if Kodiak does the same about the US? Deal? Thought not…
I wonder which will happen first, Kodiak’s beloved state pension disappearing before he ever gets old enough to collect it do to the utter collapse of the French state, or the day he gets asked at the point of a gun if he is a Muslim, and forced to convert or die?
Don’t think that last bit could ever happen? It’s happening in places in Africa that weren’t majority Muslim until very recently, and it’s happened in plenty of other places historically. You’re not fucking around with just crazed Westerners, or even predictably insane Russians. Have fun with that over there, ok?
David Mercer,
If your concerns about France are genuine, then thank you very much for your endearing sollicitude.
Nonetheless:
1/ We face no financial collapse: the country is rich is doing more than fine. Economic performance may well be enhanced, some structural adjustements have to be made (reduce civil servants in SOME areas, hunt costs, optimise yields, beef up R&D etc), but there’s nothing to be frightened with. Business as usual. The rest is just a risible product from the Bushist myth-making factory with the outstanding participation of some terrible French “writers” (écrivassiers)or “philosophers” (media clowns) who’re better at making publishing coups than at floating the slightest idea about economy.
2/ France is not Soudan & I feel certain nobody’s going to knock on my door to steal my soul or remove my scalp.
I think you watch too much stuffs like Evil Dead n° 358″ or The Exorcist: the return of the returning returned.
Just try herbal tea with a spliff: you’re going to feel better.
o~O
There, fixed your italic tag you didn’t close.
Well, have fun in your Socialist Paradise, just don’t expect any more American blood to be spilled on your behalf the next time your government pulls a Vichy in the face of totalitarianism.
David: thanks for the italic tag.
You didn’t come to save France: you came to stop Hitler from invading Florida with his U-boots & stop victorious Soviet Union from gaining ground in Western Europe.
Instead of raving about the ghosts from the past, look at your own government’s foreing policy (a pale imitation of the one displayed by European nations during the XVIIIth & XIXth centuries or, as aptly pointed out a former German minister who was forced to resign by Shroeder, a revisited Hitlerish stance for hegemony -ie: Iraq = Czekoslovakia).
Syria or Iran = Poland ?
Is there anybody there who wants to know pole’s point of view?
JANEK,
Dzien dobry: nie rozumie po Polsku, but I’d like to know your point of view.
Hi Kodiak, Hi everybody,
Kodiak, I don’t know your nationality but you seems to be francofile for sure. I am not since i went to Paris few years ago to get married. I was looking for Polish Church and asking people on the street to show me the way. None of them were english spoken so when I heard “Je ne parle…” for 10th time I said “Fuck You”. Wonder what was the answer? ” Same to you, mot….fucker” in pure english. French people are xenofobic. They hate everything and everybody except France. Now Poland is accesing UE. And just before the war in Iraq, Poland said ” We are for” and stood by american side. President Chirac were very dissapointed with that and said that we, poles, should know our place in a row and we shoud keep our mouth shut up. And we, poles, did not hear any apologies for that up today. Now french/german missiles were found in Iraq. Our soldiers did their best, they are there to keep Iraq in peace, to unarm it. But they did mistake. The information on found missiles went public. Bloody poles did not shut up. The truth is the weapon in Iraq comes from US, Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Poland, and many others countries. Few years ago Iraq was a graet market for all who produce and sell all kind of weapon, wasn’t it? And it still is. So the clue is to forget the past and think about today. And think about what eastern, western, christian and muslims can do for Iraq to help it start growing.
Janek:
Yep. According to pre-1991 (when it was not embargoed) UN Arms sales statistics, Poland and the USA were near the bottom of the list of suppliers to Saddam at around 5% each. I won’t name who the top three were…
Hi Dale,
You do not need to name these countries. But position in ranks of weapon sellers to Iraq is not so important. If many countries sold weapon to Iraq, the weapon from many countries will be found. The clou is, that we can clearly see one of globalization faces: sell to everybody. Example? I am not affraid of new word war of economical reason. We all are, in general, too rich to make war. But I am affraid as hell of the war between religions. Can you imagine what would happened if that occurs? The Saint War against those who belive in other God? And now the question: Who helped Iran to build nuclear electric plant and the installation for reaching up nuclear fuel which may be used to build nuclear weapon? The perfect Sword of God for ayatullah…
Janek,
Prosze, przeprasasz Polski moje; mais ta vision des Français est tout bonnement grotesque !
Anyway, I had much fun. You didn’t like Soviet Union. All too understanble. You don’t seem to like either France or Germany. No big deal. Close your eyes as hard as you can, spin around yourself as fast as you can, & suddenly release everything & freeze: now Poland is neighbouring North Dakota with the GDP per capita of South California…