Times online (which we do not link to) has an article about France writing itself off as arrogant failure. Words such as “diplomatic Agincourt”, “a nation in decline”, “empty arrogance” and “a laughing stock” pepper the piece.
This soul-searching is apparently being done in a proper intellectual manner:
The mood is being fanned by three books which argue that there is nothing temporary about France’s troubles. With its chronic unemployment and dinosaur centralised state, France can no longer pose as a universal model of progress and civilisation, they argue. In L’Arrogance Française, Romain Gubert and Emmanuel Saint-Martin, both journalists, say that France infuriates the rest of the world with its discredited diplomacy.
In Adieu à la France qui s’en va (Farewell to a France that is departing) Jean-Marie Rouart, a novelist and member of the august Académie Française, says that France is losing its soul to mediocrity and needs a great leader to restore its grandeur. The biggest splash is being made by La France Qui Tombe (Collapsing France) by Nicolas Baverez, an historian and economist.
To read a gentle fisking of the article visit Cronaca. Now let’s just sit back and wait for shrill accusations of frogbashing…
Via Instapundit
Frog bashing? Nah, why bother when they’re doing such a civilized job of it?
I’m perfectly willing to be accused of frog bashing. Because I do it, gleefully.
To quote Mayor Quimby on the Simpsons, speaking of his “hilarious frog’s legs joke”:
“I stand by my racial slur! Do your worst you filthy pretentious savages!”
Well, we can still blow our noses at you, so-called Arthur kings, you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!
But this is just about everything we can do I’m afraid.
That, and farting in your general direction of course.
Is it just me, or should the 15,000 corpses due to a lack of air conditioning and a vacationing medical profession be something that SHOULD cause a little bit soul searching. Or the fact that Chirac proudly built Saddam a nuclear power plant. Or France’s sophisticated inability to contain violence in the Ivory Coast, Or…oh well, this stuff pretty much writes itself.
Man, you guys are so provincial! It’s risible.
Every two months there’s a book about French decadence. It’s nothing new. Since Hugues Capet was crowned king in 997, there always has been a chroniqueur to whine about la fin du siècle or la fin du monde or la chute du royaume de France.
What’s new is the neophyte ardour displayed by illiterate, frustrated, Texan-like US peasants to bark their colossal ignorance about things French. True it was hard for you to swallow the monumental, public slap you got in your faces. You’ve been lectured live in World affairs by France. You can’t get round to humility. Instead of using your brain cells & find a way out of the Iraqi quagmire you’re wasting your time insulting France. How artless…
A special mention to the uncomparable, preposterous tirade by Alfred The Great… Mon pauvre Alfred: va vite t’acheter un cerveau en plastique >>> ça pourrait servir.
Being a mere peasant and all, I shouldn’t dare to rise above my station and point to this sentence. But, I have to. I love it. It’s perfect.
“What’s new is the neophyte ardour displayed by illiterate, frustrated, Texan-like US peasants to bark their colossal ignorance about things French. ”
No comment, really. I think this sentence illustrates things quite nicely.
Kodiak, I’ll stick with my low-tech non-plastic brain; it’s cheaper and works pretty well.
I was waiting for you to show up. I figured there was no way you could resist this particular post.
And thanks for this:
True it was hard for you to swallow the monumental, public slap you got in your faces. You’ve been lectured live in World affairs by France.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH…I needed a good laugh. And remember, as I’m sure you’ve been told time and time again, terms like “cowboy” and “Texan-like” are not insults to Americans. You’re just complimenting me by calling me that. And I know you don’t want to do that.
Since you made me laugh, Kodiak, I will tell you a joke and try and return the favor. Here goes:
How many Frenchmen does it take to change a light bulb?
One. He holds the bulb and all of Europe revolves around him.
“What’s new is the neophyte ardour displayed by effete, frustrated, Parisian bien-pensant rentiers to bark their colossal ignorance about things American.”
Actually, its not new – the French have been woofing at the Anglospheric Americans since the French & Indian war, with centuries of self-serving abuse occasionally broken by admittedly magnificent gestures like the Statute of Liberty. Current propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding, relations between France and America have never been particularly deep or warm.
So, when some of what has been going around, comes back around, we learn whether the French can take it like they dish it out. Draw your own conclusions.
This Texan-like peasant from Arizona (for frogs… that’s a part of the United States even farther west and more rural than Texas, and over half the size of France, which still has lots of
IndiansNative Americans)…Anyway… I used to live in France. Nice place to live. Nice food. Nice people.
French are always welcome to cook my food!
But as a country… well…. it no longer has any claim to an effective say in world affairs, much less on morality. The decadence is well enough chronicled here!
Kodiak:
Wow, just…..wow.
Talk about striking a nerve! Better clean the foam off your keyboard.
Point proven.
Kodiak wrote:
“What’s new is the neophyte ardour displayed by illiterate, frustrated, Texan-like US peasants to bark their colossal ignorance about things French.”
One has to hand it to Kodiak: in a single sentence, he has unwittingly captured the difference between “Old Europe intelligensia” and “Average American”.
If you disagree with the Old World intelligensia, you’re nothing more than a peasant. Shame on you for pretending to know better than your superiors; the result is a stream of insults. And there is no worse insult than being called, indirectly, a cowboy.
The average American, by contrast, sees cowboys as symbols of strength and self-reliance. And…
Can anyone image an American poster dismissing an unwelcome opinion because it is that of a “peasant”- French, German, or otherwise?
Really, after two centuries, two emperors, and five republics, it seems that Kodiak and a lot of his fellow Frenchmen are still working on the egalite part of “Liberte, fraternite, egalite”. Or perhaps Kodiak has interpreted it to mean that “All pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others”.
One thing Kodiak fails to realize is that the US never had peasants.
We had slaves, but never peasants. We can’t have the peasant mentality. We moved away to get away from the pseudo-elitist mentality who tried to impose their vision of what a peasant mentality is.
But Kodiak does finally recognize that we are “barking back.” They’re not used to that, and as another poster pointed out, they’re not handling it very well.
But now it’s the phrench peasants (who’ve had centuries of experience as peasants) barking their colossal ignorance about things American.
Again, you’ve studied us for 200 years and you still don’t get us. Quit projecting. We are not you. But we do understand you better than you think. Your history precedes you.
A procedural question, why don’t you link to the Times?
Don Eyres: If you disagree with the Old World intelligensia, you’re nothing more than a peasant. >>> easy, archifalse misinterpretation.
We don’t care if you’re obsessed by France or Europe or communism or Islamism: it’s your own story. But that your hysterical obsession has you forget or ignore your blatant flaws is a different topic. Especially when those flaws include attacking, ransacking, destroying, insulting & interfering with others’ business.
Sandy P: believe me when I say I don’t give a f*** about the USA. It’s not my country, it’s far away & I feel no special attraction towards it, no repulsion either, just like I don’t regarding Papua New Guinea. In other words: I don’t project at all. But the hatred YOU are projecting to us will systematically earn you what you deserve. Get over it.
John Moore: But as a country… well…. it (France) no longer has any claim to an effective say in world affairs, much less on morality.
Thanx for your sharp-sighted analysis you probably got from TV & even more thanx for your ridiculous lessons in morality. Don’t waste your time: go & plough your Arizonan potato field >>> it’s going to be more interesting for you.
R C Dean: yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.
Inimitable Alfred: so you can read French? C’est déjà une très bonne chose. Je commençais à désespérer à ton sujet. Comme quoi, rien n’est jamais perdu pour qui sait attendre… Au fait, essaie de trouver mieux que ta blague à deux balles.
Sandy P – The French are perfectly accustomed to being made fun of. They’ve had 2,000 years of being England’s neighbour to get used to it.
EU Amanda Est,
Your joke would be funny if England hadn’t been such an inexhaustible source of frolicsome amusement for the French (from 1066 on).
For someone who doesn’t give a f*** about the USA you sure do bitch a great deal about the USA. And just for the record smart guy, the people here in the USA don’t hate France, it’s just that we don’t RESPECT France. Because France has never done anything to earn our RESPECT. For the life of me I can’t think of one thing in the last 200 years.
If you want to defend and promote France properly you should find something better than that USA bad, France good shit, ’cause it ain’t working for me or anyone else for that matter. Your pro-France agenda needs some other than anti-Americanism.
And as far as your threat, “But the hatred YOU are projecting to us will systematically earn you what you deserve.” I don’t completely understand. It sounds as though you’ve gotten your feelings hurt. But whatever it is we “deserve” it won’t be the French selling or giving it to us. Because you have two distinct problems in that department. First, when stacked up against the US, militarily and economically , France is not the badass it believes itself to be. Sorry, you’re just not, and in a pissing contest with the US, France would drown, it wouldn’t even be close. And Secondly, since France has stopped believing in the morality of nations altogether, and seeks nothing from others but undue respect, wealth, and power, God is more than likely not on your side either. And those are two big time kicks to the nuts. For France, that is.
It’s not us who have to “get over it”, hell, we’re on top, numero uno, the big Kahuna. France justs needs to take a big collective reality check and heed the advice my old man gave me when I was growing up and gave him some backtalk, “Son, don’t let your mouth write checks your ass can’t cash.” It was, and is, sound advice.
Harry,
I won’t go through the entire delirium above: there wouldn’t be any bandwidth left for Samiz…
Just a quote: And Secondly, since France has stopped believing in the morality of nations altogether, and seeks nothing from others but undue respect, wealth, and power, God is more than likely not on your side either.
Which cult are you member of?
Why are you talking about “God”???????????????????
Are you Oussama in disguise or the latest Bushist televangelist ?
Brian: We do not link to the Times since their articles are online only for a day. After that you have to pay for access to their archives. We find this outrageous and work around it when we can by either quoting large chunks of the relevant article or linking to someone else who does, as in this case.
Kodiak,
“Especially when those flaws include attacking, ransacking, destroying, insulting & interfering with others’ business. ”
Two questions.
If I can find Jose Bove’ s email address (or whatever that Golden Arches-wrecking farmer’s name is), will you repeat the above to him?
Can you name a single French business, since Suez in 1956, that has suffered from American interference, attacks, ramsacking, and/or destruction?
Can you name a single French business, since Suez in 1956, that has suffered from American interference, attacks, ramsacking, and/or destruction?
Too easy. TotalFinaElf just lost a bunch of preferential oil contracts when we got rid of Saddam. Somehow, I can’t bring myself to shed a tear.
R C Dean,
Fair enough. 🙂 I had in mind boycots, vandalism, outright destruction of the kind that would never, ever occur in a cultured country… but you’re right. On both counts!
Kodiak,
That’s just the point Kodiak, for France, God pretty much no longer exsists, so now France has to rely solely on its understanding of national morality, or the lack thereof, to guide its behavior in the world. And that ought to scare the shit out of any sane person, especially sane Europeans.
And I don’t have a beef with God, it’s organized religion that I have a problem with. And believe me it ain’t gonna be me or George Bush that sticks shar’ia up your asses, for that you’d best look to the French suburbs.
Anyhoo, when you get the opportunity grab some reference material and bone up on the concepts of sarcasm and irony, the anglo-sphere is full of it.
R C Dean: TotalFinaElf just lost a bunch of preferential oil contracts when we got rid of Saddam.
Please stop dreaming while awaken… The Franco-US war for Africa is far from over &, so far, you’re completely outsmarted. The list of your recent astounding failures is endless: Algeria, Morocco, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Angola, Nigeria, Egypt, Libya, Mali, Gabon etc etc.
Don Eyres: Can you name a single French business, since Suez in 1956, that has suffered from American interference, attacks, ramsacking, and/or destruction?
No French business has been attained by ill-managed US aggressiveness. France is not Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Vietnam, Japan, Germany, Cuba, Amerindians, Spain etc. But we have numerous very good friends. Thank you for asking.
Harry: please do me a favour >>> you can chant your superstitious vaudou melodies to the pope, to the great rabbi of Texas or the imam next door or even the dalaï lama, but please spare your deist hallucinations for your idolatrous unelected “president”. Thank you.
Kodiak,
Regarding American military adventurism, let’s take a walk through history…
Kosovo/Bosnia-America, after months of teeth-pulling internal debate, pull’s Europe’s collective nuts from the fire. Result, mass killings, assorted atrocities ended
Haiti, Americans again intervene in non strategic interest country to bring order and stability.
Somailia, Americans again intervene in non strategic interest to try to save starving Somailis from their own countrymen.
Gulf I and II, tanker war. United States shoulders immense burden to keep lifeblood of Europe and Japan flowing.
Vietnam… Lee Yuan Kew (sp?), credits American military intervention with allowing Malaysia, Thailand and Singapore to stay independent and develop market economies.
Korea…same
Catching a theme…Kodiak? Also, could you please relate your American Con Law CV before lecturing me on my unelected President? Just curious.
Justin,
Kosovo/Bosnia-America, after months of teeth-pulling internal debate, pull’s Europe’s collective nuts from the fire. Result, mass killings, assorted atrocities ended.
Correct. Except for Kosovo where the USA misillustrated its theoritical military capacities.
Somailia, Americans again intervene in non strategic interest to try to save starving Somailis from their own countrymen.
Disagree >>> enormous fiasco.
I don’t catch the theme for the rest. Sorry.
Kodiak: Just a little note about 1066. The Normans weren’t French, they were ex-pat Vikings. Also, you might like to know that after the Florida recounts, Bush actually had an INCREASED majority (that’s why the Democrats stopped whinging about it officially – though they are happy for others like you to perpetuate the myth that he was falsely elected).
Adriana: “We do not link to the Times since their articles are online only for a day” – I’ve never found this to be true. For example, try http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,59-829546,00.html or http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-830048,00.html from September 25th, which both still work.
–Somailia, Americans again intervene in non strategic interest to try to save starving Somailis from their own countrymen.
Disagree >>> enormous fiasco.–
Disagree all you want, Kodiak, starving Somalis on the TV, and WE MUST DO SOMETHING! George 41 did.
Take your own advice Kodiak. Isn’t that one of the problems *the world* has w/the US? We don’t give a f*** about the rest of it???
Get over it, we showed you the way 200 years ago and you still can’t get it right.
Oh, well, there’s always the 6th republic.
Oh, and Kodiak, it’s not hatred, it’s confidence we’re projecting. We’re doing the right thing. Never said it wasn’t going to be bloody or a lot of people won’t die, but we are doing the right thing. Even Mubarek’s son is mouthing soothing words about human rights, women’s equality, yada, yada, yada. Don’t want words, want action.
We’ll work on Iraq, you guys work on the Ivory Coast. There’s more than enough work there to keep you busy.
BTW, I see Karzai announced their constitution was almost done.
Since when is phrawnce not Vietnam? After we went in to help save an “ally” who was bogged down in phrench indo-china?
Is it really true that Viet Nam is hinting we eeevvviillll Americans can return to our former base there?
As to outsmarted in Africa?? Well, phrawnce has been outspent. One would think the 5th(?) largest economy in the world could pony up more cash than a little over $1m to help w/aids.
Oh, and as to Cuba, once that thug goes, I guess we’ll find out how many he killed.
Such nice friends phrawnce has.
Sandy P – Samizdata is not one of those blogs where mispelling France is regarded as witty rather than infantile. It reeks of chippiness and you only distract from and diminish your points.
BTW, your note about the 6th Republic – a clever blogger on this site whose name I have sadly forgotten, once referred to it it as the Nexth Republic. That was funny. phrawnce isn’t.
believe me when I say I don’t give a f*** about the USA. It’s not my country, it’s far away & I feel no special attraction towards it, no repulsion either
Like other commenters, Kodiak, after having witnessed your performance on this blog for the last several weeks, I am… dubious… about this proposition. “Obsessed” does not seem too strong a word.
(I must admit I like the image of the American peasant tending his potato farm in Arizona, though. The vast potato fields of Arizona… the picturesque wine country of North Dakota… the placid rice paddies of Connecticut….)
jeanne a e devoto – Thanks for lightening up this thread! That was funny! – although you forgot to mention they have found a new form of liana whose sap cures cancer in the rain forests of New Mexico …. Got to sign off and catch my flight for New Orleans. I’m off for a week’s skiing in the mountains!
Sandy P.: Just a little note about 1066. The Normans weren’t French, they were ex-pat Vikings.
In 1066 no one was French stricto sensu for France as a Nation-State wasn’t existing yet. What was called the kingdom of France was a private property ruled by the king of France = a landlord whose minuscule terrestrial property was hugely disarticulated from north to south, and somewhat augmented by east & west confettis disseminated between Champagne, Picardie, bassin parisien etc.
What was to be France was ruled by vassals to the French king (so much more powerful than him) or vassals to the Holly Empire or other suzerains.
As for Normandy, the duchy was no doubt an important part of the French galaxy (look at any English etymologic dictionary if you’ve got some difficulties to get round to the idea).
If “French” irritates you, you may use Francophone or Norman-French. No big deal.
You may also say that early French weren’t French: they were expat Dutch or Franks…
I don’t read Samizdata all the time, so I wasn’t familiar with Kodiak. But judging by his Sept 27 @ 06:33 post, you guys have a genuine NetKook ™ on your hands. I’m impressed. I haven’t seen moonbattery that incoherent since I used to read Usenet groups.
Interesting that Kod lists Germany under the “ill-managed U.S. aggressiveness” section. To borrow a quote, “Oh, what a giveaway!”
Kodiak…two generations of my family left their blood on french soil but I guess that does not mean anything since they were “illiterate peasants”.By the way,since vacation season is over in france have you sophisticated elites found the time to bury grandma and grandpa yet?
Yeah Sandy phwrance sounds too damn British.
Hell, I don’t even like French salad dressing. I do, however, like Mr. French on the old tv show “Family Affair.” He was and alright dude.
rh,
My grandparents are doing fine. Thank you.
My grand grandpa -may his Frog soul rest in peace- spent 35 years in the USA where he ran a prosperous business that helped many US families survive during the 1929 crisis as he managed to fire nobody despite serious financial difficulties.
I agree that’s less glorious than falling on the champ d’honneur. That was pretty neat though.
No, Harry. It doesn’t.
Kodiak= “I fart in your general direction”.
True, a noisy, green gaseous fart.
Mais il pète plus haut qu’il n’a le derrière quand même. (trans- But he farts from higher than his arsehole)
Back to the point of the original posting.
There is a strong resemblance in the tone and substance of the French malaise and the problems of the UK in the late 1970s. I don’t know as much about the US, but I seem to recall quite a lot of soul-searching there also, especially during the Ford and Carter presidencies.
Bluster won’t do, France is exporting its most talented people to the US, the UK, Ireland and even Germany. The old, the lazy and welfare claimants remain.
There is always a possiblity of reversing the decline of human institutions because these are maintained by people possessing free-will.
I’m giving a talk at the institut Molinari on the 20th November on just this subject: “Est-ce-que la France peut faire le thatchérisme sans Thatcher?” (Can France do Thatcherism without Thatcher?).
Antoine Clarke,
First a syntactic correction: Mais il pète plus haut qu’il n’a le derrière quand même. (trans- But he farts from higher than his arsehole) >>> mais il pète plus haut que son cul.
True you aren’t French & that’s precisely the problem with the Molinari Prostitute: no French is going to ridicule themselves in that kind of low-profile brainwashing empty no-life Bushist cult.
I’m impatient to attend your pathetic one-man-show. I hope I won’t laugh to death before you start barking your grammatically (& intellectually) incorrect logorrhea.
I sympathise so much to the poverty of your mental “construction”: Thatcher is a ghost of the past, sweetie.