In response to another European Directive, the supine government of Her Majesty, will later today impose Workers Councils upon all companies employing 150 workers, or more. In 2008, the same regulations will apply to all companies with 50 workers, or more. No doubt, now this principle has been established, it will apply to my hiring of a single plumber, in the fullness of time.
Employers will be obliged to consult these councils on any change of company ownership, or on any change in the numbers of staff employed by the company; no doubt, this workers’ control will ultimately govern every minute decision taken by any employer, as the ratchet tightens itself further. This will, obviously, usher in a period of wealth, happiness, and economic harmony, as they currently possess in the rest of the mainstream EU. Like in Germany, and in France, for instance.
It seems now, that when I hire someone, by the hour, to carry out a task for me, not only do I have to compensate them, at an agreed rate, for the disutility of their labour, but I also become in thrall to them. I have to ask them whether I can suspend their employment, offer them less cash per hour, or sell my own property. Excellent. This won’t encourage me to invest offshore, invest onshore using more capital-intensive robotics, or sack more workers until I get down to a maximum of 49 people, or whatever the next minimum is. It won’t do any of that, no. It’s all been thought through.
It also offers another splendid opportunity we cannot afford to miss. As the EU expands to the east, taking in countries such as Turkey, Cyprus, Siberia, and so on, the word European becomes increasingly redundant. We could replace the whole phrase with Union. But this single word looks a little lonely, by itself, a little doubtful. To give it some added strength, let’s uniquely identify what kind of union we have, by the addition of a description of its dominant economic philosophy. This gives us, the Workers Council Union. (You may be able to guess where this is going 
)
Now, as we expand to the east, we need to make our Russian brethren (or comrades), feel a little more included. They’ve always felt a bit out on a limb, so I think we should take this opportunity to make them feel more at home. So let’s rename this new improved Union, in their honour. (This also takes us away from the evil English language of the American capitalists.)
So the Workers Council Union becomes the Rabochiy Sovyet Union. Which looks good so far. But brainstorming it even further, isn’t this now a little bit too long? And isn’t that pronunciation a little difficult, particularly for the Germanic tongue? In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, yes. I think so. So let’s shorten it, and simplify that pronunciation at the same time, killing two birds with one stone. Et voila, we have arrived at the perfect social democracy we have been trying to achieve for all these years. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, please, a round of applause, the new Soviet Union!
At the risk of emulating the Roman Republic’s Cato, who added Carthago delenda est! (Carthage must be destroyed) to the end of every speech he made, or letter he wrote, I think I’m developing my own personal version. The sooner we are out of the EU, the better. It really cannot come soon enough.
Another Nazi cross on the flag of the European Union? Congratulations! No wonder you would replace sound arguments with childish abusive daubing.
It’s looking so libertarian.
What would happen if such sophisticated paintings were made on the US or UK flags?
Actually I just changed it to the Stalin graphic, but only because it is more appropriate for this article given that what it being introduced are just a progression towards worker’s soviets.
Oh that’s nice Perry.
Your highly adaptative skills show how much talented you are in getting your ideas at the only place they deserve to be: garbage.
Admin: please note that wasn’t personal abuse.
Kodiak: Suedehead
Kodiak,
As a French resident you must be really tired of us whingeing, moaning, Euro hating, little Englanders, especially those of us who believe in classical liberty.
Do yourself a favour. Let us go. We’re not worth your time or attention. Let us wallow in economic non-Euro misery, outside of your European Utopia, spending eternity regretting our decision to leave.
Just think of the fun you’ll have pointing out to us how wrong we were, as an independent UK falls into a desperate economic trough of non-EU despair, while you forge ahead into the pages of glorious historic destiny.
Let le Rosbifs go. We’re too stupid, too insular, and too greedy, to take part in your heavenly adventure. I think it’s time you cast us off, to make your progression even quicker than it already is, to the State of your dreams.
Good luck, and send us a food parcel, when we’re on our knees without you. Au revoir.
Rgds,
AndyD
Ever wonder why multi-national businesses are overwhelmingly American/British? Its because successful businesses are allowed to grow without this kind of socialist nonsense.
Italy is an object lesson in this respect. many very successful small companies but almost no succesful large companies precisely because of these kinds of labour policies.
Of the companies in the Wall Street Journal’s latest index of the 500 biggest companies in Europe, only 35 are Italian, against 132 British, 87 German and 79 French.
And before someone says what wrong with small companies? The answer is nothing, but many industries have significant economies of scale and if you are not big, then forget about it.
I second Andy Duncan’s comments 100 pct. If Kodiak finds if offensive to twit the EU, tough. A bit of robust mickey-taking never did anyone any harm. And unlike such ancient nations as France, Britain or indeed the USA, the EU is an artificial construct able to excite affection only among parts of the chattering classes, not among Joe Public.
Please England, stay out of the EU. At this rate it won’t be long before the U.S. will have to drop bombs or food (or both) on you.
I cannot believe that supposedly intelligent people, while the former Soviet Union continues to suffer and the U.S. continues to prosper, are walking right into a socialist hell. The continent would almost be better off returning to a feudal system…
Whilst I thought recent debats about VAT were overblown, this really is a complete crock of shite. As my number of employees approaches 50, guess how long it will take me to either a) split the company, or b) move the entire thing offshore away from this stupidity. Well done the King tone and gordy show, more reasons to erode the UK tax base
Andy Duncan – I don’t think you should diffuse our criticism by styling it “mickey taking”. Many of us aren’t taking the mickey at all. We’re voicing our rage and frustration.
Writing from inside enemy territory, I can assure you that the Europeans, except for a few dotted here and there, like the idea of the EU. They all think they’re going to benefit from it in some indefiniable way. Save the Scandinavian countries, they don’t have a long tradition of democracy (some have *no* tradition of democracy) and civil liberties. By and large, they are fine with the EU, and no one had to lie to them to get them to agree to it.
But British politicians knew that the longing for liberty is too robust in the British. We’ve always thought it worth dying for. So the Brits alone had to be lied to. They have been bashed over the head with so many immense lies that they now feel helpless and have turned into Aldous Huxley’s soma people.
Kodiak – You ask “What if such sophisticated paintings were made on the US or UK flags?” This question is consonant with your inability to think in a straight line. Why would anyone want to paint anything on US or UK flags? Your giggly, triumphant little question comes from nowhere. There is no logic behind it.
1) The US and UK flags are not being forced down anyone’s throats.
2) The US and UK flags stand for something organic and real that has developed over centuries and mean something and that inspire fierce loyalty and that people have been willing to give their lives for. Does this hint explain anything to you? The EU “flag” is a typically dimwit project of a coercive fascist mentality. It should be defaced at every opportunity because – pay attention to this bit because there will be a test later – IT IS NOT REAL. IT STANDS FOR NOTHING.
Liberty Belle writes:
Andy Duncan – I don’t think you should diffuse our criticism by styling it “mickey taking”
I’m not quite sure exactly what you’re referring to here, but in general, the only way I survive mentally in this hideous country of moochers, and looters, as it descends into a sickening real-life parody of Ayn Rand’s America, in Atlas Shrugged, is by trying to inject some gallows humour, into its galloping horror.
It may not be very good, Ok, it’s terrible, but it’s the only thing keeping me sane. Please blame my Catering Corps grandfather. As he bravely cooked his way across North Africa, feeding the men who killed Germans, who kept the UK free, many of his culinary victims, who he didn’t manage to kill himself with his plum duff puddings, were taken out by Rommel’s shells (manufactured in Germany, and Vichy France).
The only way he, and all the other British soldiers, managed to survive this do-or-death struggle, was by laughing at their terrible predicament (and awful food my grandfather made for them – he was a truly terrible chef).
Maybe there’s even been some evolutionary effect. Maybe the ones who laughed the most, lived the longest?
As a life-long comic (though not anywhere near as good as Spike Milligan, hero, God, and genius, who fought in the same conflict), my grandad’s had a terrible effect on me.
But thank God. It is only this collective British sense of humour (don’t mention the war), which is going to get us through to the other side of this growing EU menace.
How many gears has a French tank got? None, the CGT organised a strike at the tank factory. Sorry. Just can’t help it! 🙂
Just the way God built me, I’m afraid.
Andy Duncan – I was referring to your note to Kodiak. I for one am not taking the mickey. I am deadly serious. (Obviously no disrespect to your grandfather or any of the other brave souls who fought so we could be free and who have my gratitude, each and every one.)
“Workers’ councils” to be imposed on privately (meaning not state) owned companies by unelected people from afar. Health food stores to be closed and “natural” medicines to be outlawed by “EU directive”. Smoking to be banned in “public” places. Identity cards are going to be forced through. All within the last seven days. The pace is quickening, my friends.
Neither was I. I mean it. I really wish the EU mainstream would just let us go. They pretend they think we’ll suffer, without their caressing hand.
I suspect they know we’ll thrive. And they’ll look terrible in comparison. And then their own peoples will wake up and realise that they’ve been sleepwalked into a social democratic police state nightmare.
It’s hard enough persuading your populations that the US is evil, in the face of all of its obvious success, but when a tiny island off the coast is also crushing you in the world’s economic markets too, then the game for Europe’s social democrats will be up.
Therefore they have to keep us in, to choke us down. You’ll notice Kodiak picked up the insignificant graphic, and totally blanked the text. Because he/she knows the shackled socialist future of the EU is going to be an economic disaster.
So my message again, to all of Europe’s social democrats, is this. Stop caring about us, stop trying to persuade us of our stupidity to leave the EU, just let us go. Forget us. We’re worthless. You’ll do much better by yourselves. Do so, with my blessing. Go on now, go. Push us out the door. Just turn around now. Coz we’re not welcome anymore.
And please throw away the key. Don’t let us back in, once we’ve gone. Tell us to go to hell. You’ll be much happier without us. And we’ll be much happier without you.
BTW, Kodiak. Are you really Becky, in disguise? You’re starting to sound an awful lot like her, when you’re angry! 🙂
ANDY: your answer could almost be Kodiakish weren’t it for your self-underestimating. This blog is certainly a working living lab (still confidential though) for floating the next mainstream ideas that are to prevail in the 5 next years within the European business/decision-maker/media hypists/intelligentsia communities. But anyway, resorting to Nazi crosses or Stalin portraits is not the best way for your ideas to step across the blog’s doorway…
******
JONATHAN: the Euro stuff isn’t just an artificial dream escaping from brain circonvolutions of some obscure Eurocrats. I pay for it everyday & I also get aplenty back from it. It’s not a State as such, you’re right. But it’s something that isn’t slow to grow. There’s really something substantial behind the boring officialdom nesting in Bruxelles.
For many people who lost relatives during WWII (because of Hitler or Stalin), EU represents a true hope & a new start. OK so let’s forget the Eurocrats & Bruxelloise redtape; but for that hope alone, please be kind & fair.
******
ASM: come to the Continent >>> we won’t bite you & maybe you’ll see we’re happy people.
As for England’s decade-long hesitating to join the EU, she may well die of what caused the death of the Buridan donkey (I don’t know if this image apply in English). The Buridan donkey was steadily, constantly hesitating between a water bucket & an oat bucket. At the end of the day he ended up starving to death cause he neither drank a drop nor ate a crumb.
******
LIBERTY BELLE: “Save the Scandinavian countries, they (CONTINENTAL EUROPEANS) don’t have a long tradition of democracy (…) the longing for liberty is too robust in the British”
>>> I’d call that Britocentrism to remain polite.
******
LIBERTY BELLE: “This question is consonant with your inability to think in a straight line. Why would anyone want to paint anything on US or UK flags? Your giggly, triumphant little question comes from nowhere. There is no logic behind it.”
>>> I feel very flattered as I read your unconvincing assumption that rings immoderately hollow. Did you know that even if nobody paints Nazi crosses on the US & UK flags (that remains to be proven), the Union Jack & the Splangled Banner are at least the most frequently burnt or teard-into-pieces flags of the world (& not by the French!!!).
The second part of your comment is so disappointing… I can see much hatred in your eyes when you pronounce “Europe”. Why? Did they hurt you? Are you jealous?
******
ANDY: your Frog-bashing is fine just as long it’s funny & have you laugh. But please spare the Nazi crosses & paintings of the Little Father of the Peoples. That would be neat.
I thought that the Germans at least, would recognise Fascism when it stares them in the face.
But then I realised that the current generation had an education that totally denies the existence of the horrors of Fascism etc. and they are very enthusiastic about the EU.
When talking to younger Germans, I am appalled at the lack of knowledge as to what occured in the 1940’s – they are in almost total denial. Hence their total lack of any cultural or collective guilt for the horrors of the Holocaust.
They are of the opinion that their brand of National Socialism is the way to go, and – they brook no discussion against their line of thought, getting very indignant and resorting to childish namecalling.
‘There are none so blind, as they that will not see’.
ANDY:
1/ Please be kind to Becky & don’t make comparisons she surely won’t put up with.
******
2/ “You’ll notice Kodiak picked up the insignificant (THAT’S A BIT EASY MY FRIEND) graphic, and totally blanked the text”
If I can see a big wart on the face of an enticing lady, I’m not forced to fall in love with her nor to stare fixedly at her…
******
3/ SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT: please all leave that mean island that we, blood-thirsty tacky socialist Eurocrats, are to annex in the very next days; you’ve got one week to pack your luggage & flee to the US or to Iraq before we start the bureaucratic carnage; no one will be spared, not even the trains…
Hi Kodiak,
You know, this is something I find strange. The EU is something Britain is already supposed to be in. Yet French people take offence, when we desecrate its flag (which is, after all, supposed to be our flag too).
So when I desecrate this symbol of oppression, it should be like a Jewish comedian telling a Jewish joke. Or it would be, except of course we know that Britain isn’t really in the EU, not in any meaningful psychological sense.
The EU is a French institution, for keeping the Germans in line, and for pushing forwards the interests of the French state. So when we desecrate the EU symbols, we’re really desecrating French symbols. Which is why I think you take such offence.
And I notice, that once again, you’ve completely bypassed the important point, about the creeping socialism of workers councils (or Soviets, as I believe they used to be known, once upon-a-time in Gulag-land – whoops, not allowed to use Russian communist allegories, even though this site is called Samizdata.)
Come on. What do you think of Workers Councils? Are they a good thing, or a bad thing? You want a sensible debate. Let’s have one.
Rgds,
AndyD
‘Please, please come to my party, it will be sooo boring without you, and you always bring such nice presents. If you don’t come, I’ll never speak to you again!, and you wont have any friends’.
Your Best Friend, Prodi.
ANDY
1/ “You know, this is something I find strange. The EU is something Britain is already supposed to be in”
Yes: SUPPOSED…
******
2/ “Yet French people take offence (…)”
I don’t know if the remaining 59.999.999 did, but I certainly did indeed.
******
3/ “So when I desecrate this symbol of oppression, it should be like a Jewish comedian telling a Jewish joke”
Your verbose acrobacy is getting somewhat dubious here.
******
4/ “The EU is a French institution, for keeping the Germans in line (…)”
You probably overestimate the ominous threat that 60 million Frogs pose to the world…
******
5/ “So when we desecrate the EU symbols, we’re really desecrating French symbols.”
So be a man & do what you really want: put a Nazi cross on the French flag & spare innocent Europe that didn’t do any backstabbing, no chease-eating & absolutely no surrending…
******
6/ “Come on. What do you think of Workers Councils? Are they a good thing, or a bad thing? You want a sensible debate. Let’s have one”
Andy: accept my gross ignorance in UK affairs >>> I don’t even know what’s a Workers’ Council. Light up my lantern please.
Prodi. Sod off.
Kodiak writes:
Andy: accept my gross ignorance in UK affairs >>> I don’t even know what’s a Workers’ Council. Light up my lantern please.
Well, I suppose you could read the original post, or click down on the link it provides?
I’m also surprised you don’t know what Workers Councils are? I believe France has already had them since 2001, which is why the post is also labelled ‘European Affairs’:
=> France tightens employment laws
If you need to know more, try these two fine sites:
=> Q&A: EU labour directive
=> EU: Employment and Social Affairs
Andy,
“The EU is a French institution, for keeping the Germans in line, and for pushing forwards the interests of the French state.”
umm..
Was started by French pple, probably with some of those objectives in mind… but show me the evidence for the EU giving consistent advantages to France over say, Spain, Germany, Italy etc. in this day & age.
This whole concept of the initiator being the evil mastermind who controls the organisation forever’s plain screwy; like saying the UN’s an American institution which exists to further their interests.
A_T, one advantage would be that France is determined, through tax “harmony,” to pillage the coffers of more economically successful states, thereby prolonging their own survival as a viable welfare state.
Secondly, France is instrumental in setting “standards” for all products produced and sold in the EU. They and the Germans dominate practically every aspect of this process. For this reason, they are able to establish standards which outlaw the production of items that their own economies are unable to compete with in a fair and free environment.
Take computer keyboards, for example. Is it any coincidence that the only keyboards up to EU specs are those that use Franch and German characters, and that for this reason keyboards produced by every other country are not far from being totally illegal for the purposes of interstate sale inside the EU? I think not.
The list goes on and on and on, but if you really don’t think the EU is all about Franco-German hegemony on the continent, just wait a few years. You’ll see, all in good time. And I won’t feel the least bit sorry for people who moronically signed on to this sucker deal.
A_t
Was started by French pple, probably with some of those objectives in mind… but show me the evidence for the EU giving consistent advantages to France over say, Spain, Germany, Italy etc. in this day & age.
A_t, one of the most recent obvious examples of French dominance and the French insistence on making the EU “work” for them has been the French government’s persistent resistance to reform of the despicable CAP.
Oops. It looks like I linked to the wrong news story in my last comment – here‘s where I meant to link to.
Here’s some more onFrench Budget treachery.
Sylvio,
Please come, – you can bring your friend Antonio!, but no Giorgio, he is such a bully, and he was very rude to UNcle.
Your very best friend, Prodi
ANDY: thanx for your help. Even if may know the reality underlying “Workers’ Council”, I’m totally unable to connect it to what you might ever refer to for the phrase “Workers’ Council” is pure Chinese to me. Again sorry for my not being British.
I’ll have a look at the material you provided & come back to you in due time.
******
SAGE “one advantage would be that France is determined, through tax “harmony,” to pillage the coffers of more economically successful states, thereby prolonging their own survival as a viable welfare state”
What’s this paranoid hystery with French stealing the euros of their neighbours???
OK nobody knows what the pound sterling can be. It’s not a reason to go for gross calomny.
Are you afraid of the Froggish-Teutonic tandem??? What kind of novels are your reading at night when you’re alone in your bed? “Wuthering French” or “The Return of the Living Krauts” ?
I suggest phytotherapy or a 15-day hiking tour within the terrifying French Massif Central (you know the Beast of the Gévaudan, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!) …
Dear Ernest Brown,
I think your remark about “French budget treachery” is just another Anglic farce…
Suppose the criterion for joining Europe or Euroland was not the 3% deficit but speaking Javanese with a Bantou accent or eating 650 sausages in a row.
Would you complain about French treachery all the same?
Europeans don’t give a damn f**** about the economical criteria for hopping on the EU train. The only valid criterion is wanting to join.
True this criterion has not so far be met by the UK…
Kodiak, does it not worry you one little iota that your preciously untaintable EU is screwing itself and the people it supposedly represents in every conceivable way it possibly can?
Your failure to recognise even the smallest failing in it – can mean only one of two things… madness or EU funding …. or is that one thing?
Workers’ councils are a delicate issue because of course the relationship between employer and employee is asymmetrical. Firms do have more power over staff than the other way round.
But I don’t believe regulation is the way to tackle it. If unionists were a bit more imaginative, they would have been negotiating as profit-making independent organisations akin to recruitment agencies half a century ago already – much more on equal terms with capitalists and to the benefit of both.
If fewer trade unionists were slaves of the mainstream socialist memes and were, for example, anarcho-syndicalists (one very good thing to come out of Belgium) they would have had no problem becoming krypto-companies, making their members and the owners of capital both much richer in the process already fifty years ago.
They didn’t though. Socialist ideas, both of the revolutionary and social-democrat varieties, sadly retain their intellectual grip on those manual workers who have educated themselves and become more widely-read – and these people are the crucial organisers of the union movement.
So we have another stateist imposition on anyone with the initiative to set up a business.
One good thing: it should finally disabuse those of the business-administrating class who bizarrely got wet knickers about Blair’s Third Way, and about the bogus advantages of doing things European Style. Some of them will now sit up and realise how silly they were – at least some of them.
Kodiak is not French. He has some knowledge of French, and it’s not bad, but not French. It’s the school French of a bright child who has built on his knowledge, but without a firm foundation. He may have lived in France or be living in France.
He has named himself after an animal in far northern Europe (and Alaska and Canada, although he has already disclaimed N America). A French person would have chosen something more French – not an animal that has nothing to do with France. His knowledge of the US comes from TV. He has never been to the United States. He may have been to Britain, although I think not. Maybe briefly.
He has a lumpen, laboured sense of “humour” – sad to say, this means no sense of humour but a stupid determination to make other people see “the fun” and can’t stop pressing a point even after the party has moved on.
My take: Kodiak’s a Swede.
Actually, is there any way we can have Giggles back? Giggles was fun. I started to quite like Giggles. (“Giggles say bye bye Giggles go now” etc)
I’m with Mark…If you’re going to have Blog Trolls then they should at least have some entertainment value…Giggles was an anoying little imp but at least he (she?) kept the debate lively…
The “maximum of 49 people”? Actually, there are quite a few small-to-medium sized companies in Belgium who artificially keep their payroll down to 49 for this very reason.
EUrocrats never seem to have heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
And I wouldn’t claim to be an authority on the Russian language, but shouldn’t that be Rabochiy Sovyetski Soyuz? (PCC in Cyrillic script) If you stick socialism in there, you end up with an exact reversal of the old CCCP 😉
I hope, Former Belgian, you like my praise for anarcho-syndicalism further up. I wasn’t being sarcastic when I said it was Belgian and a good thing (like much else – a large number of great painters for example).
I’m not saying anarcho-syndicalism is a finished solution, but I think it pointed one way out of the arid socialism-versus-capitalism stalemate that I fear still rules the hearts and minds of almost all trade unionists. A stalemate leading to this stale workers’ councils law.
Whilst unions have been used as tools of collectivists for the past century and a half, is there any reason why libertarians should disown those employees who wish to establish a free association which can negotiate on its members behalf without attempting to coerce other people to join. So long as ther is no privileged legal basis for their activity – yes, that means I loathe Taff Vale.
It’s very easy to tread the path of capital vs. labour when examining European proposals/directives and adopting a Thatcherite rather than a libertarian approach.
Yes, I think Philip is right on this.
I do not think the EU is the new Soviet Union. Yet. But that is the way it could develop. It will be more benign in some ways and thus be more effective at replacing several social interactions (such as markets) with collective political interactions.
The graphic is just a warning that the underpinning core values of the EU are utterly collectivist and collectivism is always means the violence backed suppression of several liberty. Always.
I admit to being just a simple, unsophisticated American who doesn’t know any better than to question my ‘betters’ (the Eurocrats), but I’ve got a question, so I’ll chance it:
I totally missed the lessons of the old Soviet Union. I thought the Soviet Union was an example of how to *not* run a country? Instead it seems the Eurocrats believe it to be a great success, worthy of emulation?
I must have been in a coma during the time the Soviet Union was a great success. Could someone fill in the gaps for me? (Use simple, one-syllable words, I’m ‘only’ an American and can’t grasp complex ideas.)
The EU is on the road to ruining the economies of its members. I’ll bet many companies will relocate outside the EU to avoid this horrific economic straight-jacket.
My real-world work experience has taught me that the more people you ’empower’ to make a decision on project X, the longer it takes for project X to get off the ground. It’s quite possible that project ‘X’ will never see the light of day.
The longer you delay deploying project ‘X’, the greater the edge you’ve given to the competition. Pretty soon the company starts to lose money. Pretty soon no company.
However, I’m trying to look at the positive aspects in this. I think there are some positives that could come from the Eurocrats’ love of meddling and controlling.
Perhaps the attitude should be (in Pres. Bush’s words), “Bring it on”. The more directives like this one the Eurocrats dictate, the sooner people in the UK will *wake up* and divorce this monster.
I can see that some European countries are very comfortable with committees and others telling them what they can and can’t do. It goes along with the ‘Nanny State’. I can’t imagine UK citizens wanting this sort of control.
I don’t know where the breaking point will be for the UK, but I believe there will be one. The Eurocrats will pile on directive after directive, robbing people of free choice in almost all areas of life. I believe (and hope it’s soon) there will be the proverbial “one that broke the camel’s back”, as far as the UK goes.
kodiak you said:
“LIBERTY BELLE: “Save the Scandinavian countries, they (CONTINENTAL EUROPEANS) don’t have a long tradition of democracy (…) the longing for liberty is too robust in the British”
>>> I’d call that Britocentrism to remain polite.”
My Response:
Liberty Belle is 100% correct. Just read your history books. Britain has a much longer tradition of liberty than most other European countries. It’s become an ingrained attitude. You can say ‘Britocentrism’ all you want. It doesn’t change history.
The US is what she is today because of the British longing for liberty. Our laws and our revolution .. it’s due to the British and what they valued and believed worth fighting for.
It was British Colonists, believing in British liberty
that stood up to the ‘mother country’ and decided to fight for the liberty they believed was denied them. The colonists didn’t hate the ‘mother country’ and at first the idea of separating from Britain wasn’t seriously considered. They just wanted their rights, as free Englishmen, to be respected.
Although Britain has a monarch, it’s really the people, through their elected officials, who are in charge. I can’t recall exactly when the British removed the ‘absolute right of Kings’, but it was a while ago.
Even when Britain was ruled by a monarch with power, the British still cried ‘foul’ if the King violated their unwritten laws.
I can’t think of too many other European countries who have such a long tradition of liberty and freedom for its people as the UK does.
Dear deliciously, hallucinatingly hilarious Liberty Belle,
I didn’t know my English was so well-rounded that the idea I could be non French could ever percolate…
Your evoking humour is positively close to the highest degree of absurdity ever attained on this planet. You should have a glance at your posts about France… Your heavy, painstaking attacks on France or on Statism (apparently very similar concepts according to your overflowing imagination) are just a pot-pourri of pedestrian verbal incontinence heard only in the meanest East End pubs around 11pm…
Thanx for admitting my French isn’t too bad. That’s a refreshing reward after years of obstinate tenacity tracing back to my birth…
Your interest in Kodiak etymology is soaking me with undissimulated joy. Just your improper recourse to two beautiful French words (Liberté et Belle) to rig out the pathetic scrarecrow that your phraseology is merely adding up to is droll.
For the rest, think twice. Well once would already be a feat…
Liberté Belle: peut-être connais-tu notre langue magnifique? Si c’est le cas, eh bien tu peux toujours essayer de me montrer à quel point tu la maîtrises. Je te promets d’être bienveillant et encourageant.
He has a lumpen, laboured sense of “humour” – sad to say, this means no sense of humour but a stupid determination to make other people see “the fun” and can’t stop pressing a point even after the party has moved on.
Dear Chris,
1/ “Instead it seems the Eurocrats believe it (THE SOVIET UNION) to be a great success, worthy of emulation?”
Where did you fish this sick idea?
******
2/ “(…) the Soviet Union was a great success”
Your acid stance is just a desperate monologue >>> no one thinks USSR was a model to be adopted, not even the sardonic Eurocrats.
******
3/ “The EU is on the road to ruining the economies of its members”
Please refrain from being paternalistic towards Europe: it’s not because you recently picked up a couple of clichés from trash TV or The Sun that your views are grounded.
BTW: what about Bush’s financial prodigality? Margaret could castigate you for that.
******
4/ “My real-world work experience has taught me that the more people you ’empower’ to make a decision on project X, the longer it takes for project X to get off the ground”
My real-world instinctive experience suggests me your’re unbeatable at logics. God: you spared a good 80 letters to thrust well-planted platitudes to us. Did you graduate from the flea market? (ADMIN: it’s just a question & no abusive insinuation at all).
******
5/ “I think there are some positives that could come from the Eurocrats’ love of meddling and controlling.”
Your highness is really too kind.
******
6/ “I can see that some European countries are very comfortable with committees and others telling them what they can and can’t do”
Well: here’s an European facing you & telling you I won’t have a brainwashed Unitedstater telling me what I’ve got to think or to do.
Please consider first the ad-hoc commmittee (the supreme joke) telling you that George The Second has been appointed.
******
7/ “My Response: Liberty Belle is 100% correct”
What’s the English proverb? Birds of the same feather or something…?
Risible.
******
I won’t even address the rest of your logorrhea.
You woudn’t be too bad a Stalinist unless Goebbels would hunt have hunted you first…
Kodiak,
You europhiles really try and convince yourselves
that the EU has stopped war & conflict in Europe.
That is a /false/ premise. Why don’t you let us know which war was prevented because of the EU?
Paul P,
I’m not as talented as yourself to predict or depict things that actually never happened.
I deeply regret there hasn’t been any additional war between France & Germany since 1945 to capture your august approval.
But wait, if the Berlu/Schröder travesty of diplomatic fight turns to a more belliquose tragedy, I’ll surely ring you up.
I think I’m slowly mutating into Cato of Rome…
All EU, All Day.
Kodiak,
Here are two quotes from you:
Quote 1:
“There’s really something substantial behind the boring officialdom nesting in Bruxelles.
For many people who lost relatives during WWII (because of Hitler or Stalin), EU represents a true hope & a new start.”
Quote 2
“I’m not as talented as yourself to predict or depict things that actually never happened.”
It seems you felt talented enough to presume
that the EU was a great hope in wake of WW2.
Hope for what may I ask?
Paul P,
Sorry: my phrasing wants accuracy.
The immense popular hope for peace & co-operation that followed WWII has led to a constructed embodiement of hope & co-operation: the EU.
A bit like post-Secession War in the US.
Kodiak
Congrats on your talent for killing an interesting thread.
Phil,
Congrats on your lightly dissimulated witch hunting.
Phil Bradley – Kodiak hijacks every thread it appears on and smothers it. Once you see the dreaded Kodiak signature, you know the thread will become frazzled with non sequiturs and unbearably verbose would-be smartypants observations and will suffocate for want of the oxygen of rationality …
Liberty Belle,
For your own sake, please read all your posts about France again.
No doubt the above-mentioned laborious phrasing shall apply to yourself.
Are you being ridiculous?
Liberty Belle, I really enjoy Samizdata. There are some smart interesting people who post and comment here. But it takes remarkly few people to poison the commons and other people, the ones who want informed debate, quickly get fed up with stuff like Kodiak’s drivel, and leave and then its over. I’ve seen it before.
What to do? This is private property and as the owner’s of any private property should, they need to husband it for the long term.
If it were my property (and I am quite clear that it is not) then I would be a more activist moderator, rejecting posts from people who I consider abuse the priviledge of posting here.
Any thoughts Perry?
Phil – At first Kodiak just infected the odd thread here and there and was an irritant, but no big deal. But during the last week, its presence has been seeping into the fabric of Samizdata like a bloodstain. My own thinking was that I would not post on any thread on which it had made its mind-numbing appearance, but at this stage, this would mean giving up posting here entirely. I too enjoy the company here on Samizdata. The commentators are literate, articulate, courteous, sometimes witty and always civilised. It’s by far the gold standard of blogs. It just takes one infection. Jeeez.
I think once Kodiak makes a heavy-handed, intemperate, humourless appearance on a thread, I’m not going to continue reading it (some people get so incensed they get suckered into wasting time replying – myself included – but then the thread degenerates anyway no matter how hard some rational souls try to pull it back) and won’t contribute further to it. Why should we indulge someone making insulting personal comments about us? He’s the only rude contributor. He’s like a barroom drunk who thinks his “wit” is so devastating that normal rules don’t apply to him. And his thoughts are as predictable as those of a smartass barroom drunk, as well.
Liberty Belle,
Thanx for confirming what your delirious phraseology is all about.
Again, read your posts again.
Kodiak,
I don’t believe the EU has stopped any war
that would otherwise have happened.
It is fairly obvious that the reason why
there has been no war in western Europe since WW2 is because Nazi Germany was defeated, dismantled and prevented from growing militarily.
European economic integration in the early 20th century was apparently pretty tight (even without an EU) but it obviously didn’t stop the war.
Hi Phil,
I think we should take a market position, with certain brand names. For example, if a certain brand comes on the market, say “Moose Monster III”, and starts making comments, or providing a new product, we try the brand out.
We buy the brand, take it out, cook it, comment on it, and then eat it.
If what we eat, or receive in return for our willingness to try the brand, with our own time, and money, is something inedible, poisonous, and infective, we have one of two options:
1). We can either continue buying the brand, to suffer the same side-effects, and the manufacturer will continue filling the shelves with this brand, as we buy more and more of its horrible contents.
2). Or we can just stop buying the brand, blank it out, ignore it, stop wasting our time and money on it, and choose only to buy other brands (eg: “Liberty Belle, Fine French Wines”). I think you’ll find if the manufacturer who doesn’t shift any tins of “Moose Monster III” dogfood, who doesn’t get any uptake of it, or any other market response, will either go out of business, shouting in the wind, or take “Moose Monster III”, off the shelves, to the delight of us all. I think this will happen fairly quickly.
Unfortunately, the manufacturer may try to sell us the same old rubbish, under a different brand label, say “Wolverine Monster IV”, and we’ll have to repeat the process of learning to distrust a new brand, but eventually, once we’ve spotted the manufacturer, and they run out sufficient mental processing and brand advertising strength, we’ll push them off the market entirely.
So, my advice is, just boycott the “Moose Monster III” brand, and it will go away if enough of us choose to do the same.
Rgds,
Moose Monster III
I’m confused by that post. Moose Monster III? Too clever for me.
Paul P
1/ “I don’t believe the EU has stopped any war
that would otherwise have happened”
That’s speculation. What if Cleopatra’s nose would have been shorter?
******
2/ “It is fairly obvious that the reason why
there has been no war in western Europe since WW2 is because Nazi Germany was defeated (…)”
I’d rather say the reason why WW2 ended is that Nazi Germany were defeated.
The Europeans need no Nazis to destroy each other >>> see European history.
******
3/ “European economic integration in the early 20th century was apparently pretty tight (even without an EU) but it obviously didn’t stop the war”
You are right.
But the economic integration you’re referring to was not backed up by political co-operation, to say the least.
There were sycophants preaching “The United States of Europe” in pre-1933 Europe. The idea was perhaps even reaching senior decision-making outskirts. But, unfortunately, it has never been a policy actively implemented.
mark writes:
I’m confused by that post. Moose Monster III? Too clever for me.
Sorry mark. Can I apologise for my over-verbose friend, Mr Monster III. I think what he was trying to say, was:
If we ignore the street-raving idiots, they’ll go away, and go and inflict themselves on somebody else who’s prepared to listen to the publicity oxygen of their irrational, hysterical, offensive, emotive gibberish.
Don’t waste your time or energy on them. Life’s too short.
1/ “I don’t believe the EU has stopped any war that would otherwise have happened”
That’s speculation. What if Cleopatra’s nose would have been shorter?”
===> If so then it is also speculation to assume that the creation of the EU would stop war or give any hope in that regard.
******
2/ “It is fairly obvious that the reason why there has been no war in western Europe since WW2 is because Nazi Germany was defeated (…)”
I’d rather say the reason why WW2 ended is that Nazi Germany were defeated.
==> Maybe you will agree it was at least a major contributing factor.
The Europeans need no Nazis to destroy each other >>> see European history.
===> Okay, but during that European history you speak of what level of democracy was around?
******
3/ “European economic integration in the early 20th century was apparently pretty tight (even without an EU) but it obviously didn’t stop the war”
You are right.
But the economic integration you’re referring to was not backed up by political co-operation, to say the least.
There were sycophants preaching “The United States of Europe” in pre-1933 Europe. The idea was perhaps even reaching senior decision-making outskirts. But, unfortunately, it has never been a policy actively implemented.
===> Political integration does not guarantee peace and can be the cause of war. Are you familiar with the American civil war?