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Sheer Gall Once again the xenophobic and unilateralist French government displays its arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the international community:
France is saying goodbye to “email” and hello to “courriel” – the term that the linguistically sensitive French government is now using to refer to electronic mail in official documents.
The culture ministry has announced a ban on the use of the word email in all government ministries, documents, publications or websites, in the latest step to stem an incursion of English words into the French lexicon.
We should protest against this vulgar attempt to pursue their own narrow and selfish national interests. Let’s flood them with e-mails.
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Give it a rest.
Courriel = courier electronique = electronique mail
is a much nicer contruction than the awkwardness of “email” in French.
(Having suffered through the ridiculous Quebec branche of gall changing Hamburger to Hambourgeois. (Since discreetly dropped after suffered deserved ridicule.) this is nothing, it sounds better in French and is not a nuisance.)
Fred
I think you rather miss the humour in David’s remarks, Fred.
Who was responsible for the sign “Le Weekend Starts Ici” on the Eurostar depot in West London? Was it done deliberately to piss off the French?
Is there a good Anglo-Saxon word equivalent to entrepreneur?
Tim,
A good Anglo-Saxon word for entrepreneur?, ‘spiv’ used to be adequate. Most were ‘salt of the Earth types, and they could turn a penny into a pound quicker than you could say ‘Taxman’.
Hope I haven’t spoiled anyone’s delusion of grandeur….
Why was the changing (in a purely symbolic move) of ‘French Fries’ to ‘Freedom Fries’ ridiculed, while the French government’s requiring its bureaucrats to start using the word ‘courriel’ instead of ’email’ is defended?
BTW: One can argue that the French could use a different word than email since there’s already a French word émail meaning ‘enamel’.
That’s funny how more State is required when State starts hurting a country.
Why need French government issue such ridiculous edicts ? Because our economy (I’m French, by the way) doesn’t innovate anymore (if it ever did). Because our State strangle us. And many new words come from innovation. So the French language must survive by other means: laws, laws, laws.
I reckon a “landguage” can only be “so big” and still keep its native volatility to spell without being dispelled out of reason. We need a variety of landguages around to keep our humane cultural diversity alive and young. I know that if I was able to speak a variety of landguages it would make me a far more capable – a broadband person.
We are loosing landguages by the score and it has to stop some means must be employed to preserve these vital cultural monoliths they have reams of wisdom still living inside their context. I wish well to any real country who seek to make themselves and their culture continue to make them special in their own eyes because they value it they also give a humane valuation on their own selves.
If you want to see what happens to a culture which has lost its own exclusivity then seek out where England was and wonder where we went and how foolish we were? Steve Round. ENGLISHMAN
Respect means freespeech
I think French people, perhaps through their government, are quite entitled to change or remove words on some cultural-purity mission, however misguided. French people, such as lep above, are entitled to complain about this, but we are not.
However, when France both does this and at the same time demands that Britain, for example, conform without exception to the metric system of weights and measures, then this is hypocrisy.
The metric system is a French reform of their own chaotic 18th-century multitude of domestic measures which they then imposed by military force on countries throughout Europe who had unified their own national measures long before France. Having suddenly noticed the mote in their own eye they set about energetically removing splinters from other peoples’.
By all means support unification and international harmonisation – but then stop bleating about our languages lending each other words.
Or by all means support filters for cultural distinctness and l’exception francais – but then stop criticising English weights and measures.
English-speaking countries have made no effort to impose English measures on France or to promote the English language in France since the 100 Years’ War (in fact we rather gamely try to speak la langue, and laugh along with the French sniggering at our efforts). Meanwhile France relentlessly promotes the French language in English-speaking countries with state money and relentlessly pursues the elimination of any alternatives in English-speaking countries to the metric system of measures – all the time complaining bitterly about our conduct.
France can’t have it both ways.
Stephen:
Actually, the number of languages you speak has nothing to do with your “bandwidth” (which would be analogous to your mental acuity) and everything to do with your “protocol vocabulary” (or whatever software designers call it when an application can speak multiple protocols).
People can be geniuses in only one language, and morons in a multitude of languages.
mail – from the Old French “male” meaning “pouch” or “bag.”
What comes around does not always go around.
David : your quoting The Guardian is positively refreshing. That said, bravo! again for your sense of humour.
Now more serious things.
“E-mail” had no chance at all to be granted long-lasting hospitality in the French language. The first obvious reason is its failure to be conjugated: you can’t say “je t’e-mailerai” (I’ll e-mail you); “tu m’as e-mailé” (you’ve e-mailed me) is found nowhere; even the simple “nous l’e-mailons” (we e-mail her) does not belong to writing & speaking reality. “Zap” (change TV programme &, by extension, drop somebody) was more successful: “je l’ai zappée” (I fired her – I left her – I was pretending to pay her attention…).
The second major flaw is the sounding of “e-mail”: the monograph “e” is pronounced as in “bee” whereas your typical Francophone would expect monograph “e” to sound like “le” (the) or “dé” (dice). The digraph “ai” pose an even greater phonetic problem: “ai” coincides with the regular English diphthong you can find in “great” & “late”. The same diphthong appears in French, less frequently though, and when it does, the diphthong is almost always the very last syllable of the word.
Another decisive drawback, yet subjective, affecting “e-mail”’s destiny is its absolute, irremediable ugliness. “Marketing”(1) looks all right, “sandwich” is ugly but gets acceptance due to meritorious services rendered to gastronomy and the ugliness of “football” was compensated by the logical tribute that our Outre-Manche neighbours were to be paid.
Why “courriel” then?
First it’s beautiful: it’s rhyming with “ciel” (sky), “miel” (honey) & “logiciel” (software).
Then the pronunciation is really easy except, sorry for that, for Anglophones: they’ll need dozens of attempts, experience acrobatic mouth distortions and inflict themselves painful, ridiculous, desperate zygomatic disfigurement before they actually utter “courriel” while their Francophone audience will wait politely with a distraught & sympathising gaze in their eyes.
But the chief advantage for “courriel” is definitely conjugation. Look: “courriéler” is a 1rst-group verb. Except the necessary orthographic variations, “courriéler” is no track:
“je courrielle
tu courrielles
il/elle/on courrielle
nous courriélons (accent on “e” & just one “l”)
vous courriélez (accent on “e” & just one “l”)
ils courriellent”.
Present perfect: “j’ai courriélé”. Future: “je courriellerai”. Preterit: “je courriélais”. Past subjunctive: “que je courriélasse”.
I don’t know who coined “courriel”. Certainly not the Académie Française. It comes from Québec.
(1) Business people: note that “marketing” is facing mounting competition from “mercatique
Ted Schuerzinger,
Please note that “émail” (enamel) rhymes with English “my”, “sigh” & “deny” whereas the first syllable sounds like the English vowel in “says” (or the first ones in “leopard” & “bury””).
So the ugly”e-mail” (courriel) can’t be compared to the nicely sounding “émail” (enamel).
Also, the words actually competing with “courriel” are: “e-mail” (pron: “eemél”), “mail” (pron: “mél”) & “mél” (pron. “mél”).
******
Lep,
“Why need French government issue such ridiculous edicts ?”
“Courriel” comes from Northern America. I’ve been using it for almost 10 years.
******
Mark,
“The metric system is a French reform (…)” >>> it’s a scientifical achievement. Saying that gravity is English because Newton was English is just as funny as saying metric system is French.
“(…) l’exception francais (…)” >>> as any “tion”-ending words, “exception” is feminine: “française” is required for gender agreement’s sake.
“(…) stop criticising English weights and measures” >>> they’re not English: the avoirdupoids pound was finally adopted from France by Henry VIII (he abolished the Tower pound) after having been unofficially imported by the French kings of England from 1066 on. The UK system is not only irrational & inconvenient, it’s also a living proof of how conservative & reluctant to change British can be…
“English-speaking countries have made no effort to impose English measures on France (…) >>> France has dropped its medieval system in 1795. Do you expect us to go backward? Come on!
“(…) France relentlessly promotes the French language in English-speaking countries (…)” >>> what’s wrong with that?
“(…) (FRANCE) relentlessly pursues the elimination of any alternatives in English-speaking countries to the metric system of measures (…)” >>> stop dreaming: nobody wants the Anglo-Saxon system, and aptly so: it is inconsistent (US & UK differ), irrational (not based on scientific definitions – metric system is the universal system for science), tacky (do you measure people with feet & inches???) & inconvenient (the World use the metric system already).
Some words become international standards, the French can want to ban the word email all they want but considering the Rest Of The World is using it they are going to have to explain everytime they say they will Courriel something to someone outside France what they are talking about. This just means the French people are going to have to learn two words for the same thing in order to communicate adequately inside and outside France.
One of the reasons the English language is so strong is it’s willingness to adopt words and phrases from other languages/ cultures, enforcing strict rules about what can and can’t be adopted linguistically is a recipe for stagnation and eventual irrelevance.
JayN,
1/ “One of the reasons the English language is so strong is it’s willingness to adopt words and phrases from other languages/ cultures (…)”
Your assertion might be inaccurate: Dutch has immensely imported from all languages of the World. Yet Neerlandophony amounts to 25 or 30 million people.
Vocabulary intelligibility (an obvious parameter of languague accessibility, according to your views) may not be a clear-cut notion, nor be exempted from significant nuances. If a Francophone reads “connoisseur” in English, they can easily relate it to Fr “connaisseur”; when they hear the same word for the first time, they”ll have absolutely no chance at all to relate it to anything >>> the pronunciation is really too diverging. That’s the gap between written phenotypy & oral phenotypy.
Likewise, you should bear in mind that vocabulary intelligibility (what makes a foreign language accessible to beginners) isn’t the only criterion that makes a language attractive. If the target-language is truffled with idiomatic phrasings or too strange a grammar, then enthusiasm will gradually be tempered.
That’s precisely the case of English (not to mention its phonological uniqueness that often makes it so difficult for foreigners to grasp). And yet English is thriving.
The situation of English may have more to do with external agents rather than linguistic peculiarities.
******
2/ “(…) enforcing strict rules about what can and can’t be adopted linguistically is a recipe for stagnation and eventual irrelevance”
If your refer to the “courriel” story as you mention “strict rules”, you may misunderstand the whole point. I think the decision was limited to ministerial circles, in France.
You probably refer to the “strict rules” issued by the French Academy which is just a symbol & has actually no influence on the course of the French language, the destiny of which is more in the hands of Africa than of Europe.
I don’t know if you speak French. If you do, please have a conversation with various Fr-speaking people: you’ll see that none of them speak like the Academy & that none of them speak a uniformised form of French either.
As for stagnation & irrelevance being subsequent to linguistical norm-building, I disagree. These are two completely separate matters. But that’s another debate…
JayN is correct about English… but it is that in combination with being spoken by the people on the winning side in two World Wars, a global Cold War and being used by the two historically most successful global trading nations.
Also… I really have no idea what Stephen Round means. I coud not care less if my grandchildren decide it makes more sense to communicate mostly in Urdu whilst living in the Cotswolds.
The thing that is a wonder to me is the fact Anglo culture in Quebec is so enervated that they allow the state to impose the use of language used on private property regardless of what individuals think they should do economically or socially. I would have reached the Molotov cocktail stage of debate looooong ago if I lived there. Could any Canadian care to explain to me why such linguistic authoritarianism is tolerated by the Anglos?
If I ever have a daughter, I think I’m going to name her Courriel
Perry,
No, JayN’s underlying approach to account for English circulation is not correct. It fits to popular Weltanschauung, but it isn’t accurate. There’s no such thing as a combination of internal & external patterns to extricate an unquestionable elucidation of English speakingship. It doesn’t mean that English is not a beautiful or interesting language; it means that it is used for non strictly linguistic reasons.
The cause of English success has nothing to do with its very nature: other languages were successful and new ones will be in the future.
If we were to follow JayN’s theory, Esperantophony would be more successful than Anglophony is (although Esperanto is an astonishingly fast-growing idiom deprived from any typical speaking base).
You can’t stagnate language. People merrily do what they want with it on the street. What you can do is dictate the terms of business speech. Perfectly appropriate, but the further you separate every day language from bureaucrat-speak, the more useful energy you bleed off into pointless memo-polishing.
There is no need for a debate here. I heard of that “courriel” six years ago and it appears again in the French internet news almost every year.
Because French is our official language the French government believe that every official document should only use French words. There’s no pressure on citizen here. You will find “courriel” in only a few administrative boring publications. It is already in use since a few years. But outside that nobody uses it. French people don’t care if a word is French, English or German. What’s the difference?
It is just a useless decision. And even so employees in the government or in embassies abroad happily say “email” like all my french speaking friends.
But of course if you want to use that for some more French bashing
Guillaume: yes, the disconnect between government pronouncement and actual usage is why this is an opportunity for French bashing.
Or government bashing, more broadly. Your government documents can’t say “email”, mine can’t say “chairman”. Same difference.
Mark Gullick,
Why don’t you try Courrielle or Courièle instead ? Courriel would fit your son better.
******
S Weasel,
Again, the courriel stuff regards French ministers.
Still I find it great there’s a revived fight between e-mailers & courriellists: competition is always the best way to get rid of ugly words.
Kodiak: duh.
S Weasel: grouïnk! grouïnk!
Shall I courriel it for you ?
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““E-mail” had no chance at all to be granted long-lasting hospitality in the French language.”
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I just love this kind of authoritative statements when it comes to highly unforeseeable and capricious issue such as, for instance, the evolution of language.
Wanna bet? I take the bet that besides civil servants and French speaking fundamentalists (hint, hint,) this ugly state enforced barbarism won’t stand a chance.
Keep in mind that, unlike you, I’m not coming here, taking an advantageous pose and shouting out The Truth and The Reason. I’m just taking a bet.
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The first obvious reason is its failure to be conjugated:
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So f*ing what? Just in case a scholar such as you didn’t notice, the French language – and a whole bunch of others. Lots of them actually. – is not only constituted with VERBS.
There are also NOUNS.
Consequently, I use to write, read, speak (and sometimes even sing) with French people things like: “I’ll SEND you an email”, “Hey, I RECEIVED your email” or “Just DROP me an email, okay?”.
As far as I can tell, that first obvious reason of yours does not seem that obvious to me.
As a fact, since we’re talking about vocabulary, I’d rather replace your “obvious” with, say, “bullshit” or even “stupid”.
No offense though. I’m just trying to precise my thought regarding your arguments.
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“The second major flaw is the sounding of “e-mail”: the monograph “e” is pronounced as in “bee” whereas your typical Francophone would expect monograph “e” to sound like “le” (the) or “dé” (dice).
—
So f*ing what? It’s technically true (to some extent) but practically stupid. There’s been so much hype around “Email” since the French discovered the Internet (Last week. Okay, kidding) and there’s been so many “e-something” during the glorious dotcom days that even my grand mother knows how to pronounce email. Don’t tell me you’re not as informed as my granny.
And oh, I have another revelation for a French scholar such as you: there are loads of vowels AND consonants AND combinations of both that pronounce differently in French. That’s why the French is such an unnecessarily complicated language actually but what it means anyway is that “your typical Francophone” (well, at least MINE. Yours doesn’t seem to be very smart.) is used to this. Wanna talk about the “c” the “s” or the “x” for instance?
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The digraph “ai” pose an even greater phonetic problem: “ai” coincides with the regular English diphthong you can find in “great” & “late”. The same diphthong appears in French, less frequently though
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“less frequently” ? You must be kidding.
Anyway this is, once again, a senseless statement (could it be your specialty?). “ai” is not only natural to the French speaker, it also happen to be very close to the English pronunciation.
That’s the reason why the French state preferred barbarism (before the Taliban Quebecois came in with their “courriel”) was actually “mèl”, as the Phonetically Correct alternative to “mail”.
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The same diphthong appears in French, less frequently though, and when it does, the diphthong is almost always the very last syllable of the word.
—
Oh. Very last syllable of the word huh?
Like in “e-mail” for instance?
Excuse me but… So f*ing what?
I’d say your “second major flaw” won the same ADJECTIVE (remember we saw in lesson 1 that there are more than VERBS to make a language?) as the second.
“Bullshit” or “stupid”. Your call.
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Another decisive drawback, yet subjective, affecting “e-mail”’s destiny is its (blah blah) ugliness
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AND
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Why “courriel” then?
First it’s beautiful: it’s rhyming with “ciel” (blah blah)
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All right. this is (as you put it) so “subjective” or (as I put it) so “stupid” that it won’t deserve more attention than what’s needed to remind Kojak the Great French Scholar that the decisive attribute as far as vocabulary is concerned is to be found on the side of SEMANTICS and not AESTHETICS.
[Sorry to hurt your feelings and piss on your “sky” rhyme.]
Unless, of course, you’re a French post modernist subsidized poet in which case, you don’t have to make sense at all.
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Then the pronunciation is really easy except, sorry for that, for Anglophones: they’ll need dozens of attempts, experience blah blah blah
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Interesting. Let’s see how YOU speak English. Or Spanish. Or Gaelic. Or Serbian. Or any of the Papuan languages. And let’s see who will wait politely with whatever in their eyes.
Yep, you’ve got it right. That first “advantage” of yours for the ugly “courriel” barbarism is bullshit, once again.
But wait, there’s a surprise: you did so well that you won another adjective: “utter”.
It fits right in front of “bullshit”.
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But the chief advantage for “courriel” is definitely conjugation.
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Man, you really have a hard on VERBS right?
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Look: “courriéler” is a 1rst-group verb.
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Nope sorry. As far as French is concerned, “Courriel” is only a barbarism right now. Which is the reason you can conjugate it artificially like you could with any other actually.
There’s no preexisting rule, so everybody can have fun.
[Hey, look at me: courrieliser, courrielage, courrieliste, courrielissime, courrieleur, courrielitutionnellement.
Did you see me making words? You saw me, didn’t you?]
What’s more, I’m sorry it didn’t reach your attention but there are indeed a lot of French people conjugating English verbs using French conjugation rules.
For instance “J’ai downloadé un paquet de fichiers” (I downloaded a shitload of files) or “J’ai uploadé plein de trucs sur le serveur” (I uploaded lots of stuff on the server).
So, what was that last argument of yours btw? Shall I provide you with another ADJECTIVE?
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I don’t know who coined “courriel”. Certainly not the Académie Française. It comes from Québec.
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Oh, those Quebecois… Come on, they can’t even talk a proper French. With all these laughable words (Tabarnac?? Please, let’s get serious) and this funny accent they have when they speak…
Usually I wait politely but I can’t hide a distraught & sympathizing gaze in my eyes.
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(1) Business people: note that “marketing” is facing mounting competition from “mercatique
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(2) Business people: note that this is utter bullshit. I have an extensive experience in the B2B field and I can’t think about anybody who would VOLONTARILY use this coarse barbarism that is “mercatique”.
Unless the guy/gal wants to be laughed at of course.
Funny because it’s not the first time I see Krasnoyarsk the Great French Scholar confusing his dreams with reality and proclaim lies when he miss facts.
Last time was when he wrote:
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“You have no idea about the fierce opposition Chirac is facing everyday & how much humiliated he is in his own country.”
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One word: pathetic.
Chirac is soaring, most of the French are behind him and he probably already won the next elections.
OR
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The world literature about France isn’t even 2% of what the French themselves are slapping in the face of any arrogant home authority.
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Yeah right… If that’s what you call “tips and tricks to divert social welfare and under the table work”, I guess we have another “meaning of the words” situation here.
And the best one:
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You may not understand that wishing a merry July 14 is a friendly tradition in France.
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Err, no, really. Not at all. Joyeux Anniversaire, (Happy birthday) yes, Joyeux Noel (Merry Christmas) yes, Bonne Année (Happy New Year) yes and Joyeuse Paques (Happy Easter).
I spent a lot of Bastille Day In France ever since I saw the light, but “Joyeux 14 juillet”????? No, you made that one by yourself.
Do you really believe that you’re the only French reading Samizdata?
That could be the reason why you think you can post such obvious falsehood, but I have news for you: there’s a bunch of froggies reading this excellent blog and additionally laughing at Koryak, the living example of The Reason Why The French PC is Preposterous.
You’re not reasoning, you’re acting like a child who tries to be right and make up examples of “How strong and tall and better than yours my own Daddy is”.
Hey, my Daddy is the strongest in the world and even, he has a gun, even, and he kicks your Daddy anytime is true coz I say so.
The dissident frogman,
1/ I take the bet on courriel vs e-mail. Prepare the bottle of champagne.
2/ Conjugation: don’t get angry like that >>> I take the bet once more. Prepare another one.
3/ Verbing a noun & having that verbisation conjugated (excuse my English…) can be a game AND a living thing at the same time: I don’t object to none of your creation. I find “courriéleur” really interesting. “Décourriélisant”, “protocourriel”, “acourriélie”, “courriélassier”, “courriélaillon” & “courriélomanie” too would be just perfect.
4/ With you on “downloader” except that “charger” is quite more common, isn’t it? Please find more convincing examples.
5/ Please do provide me with as many adjectives as you want: I love words, especially new & well-targeted ones.
6/ Mercatique vs marketing >>> why are you so redhot? You’re not the only one to work in BtoB or business >>> mercatique is gaining ground day after day, whether you know it or not.
7/ Chirac president in 2007? You can be detested AND be elected (remember 2002? Chirac got 82% with a ridiculous 19% at the run-off). Don’t speak too fast about 2007; I wouldn’t be so sure (even if today the left is still annihilated).
8/ I for sure know there’s French attendance here (and not necessarily rightists, believe me). I’m flattered to be introduced to you, TDF. But whatever your nationality or your mother tongue, your ideas are really 100% compliant with libertarian blabla: that’s what matters most after all…
I just wonder why you’ve been waiting so long before you & your French friends decided to help me grow up. Please come back: I can’t wait…
Kodak.
You have the rare ability to avoid issues and arguments, I give you that.
Oh wait, it’s not rare (very French in fact, even though I suspect you’re not one) and it’s not an ability.
So I guess I’m giving you nothing.
Your points 1/ and 2/ are not addressing my comments. You’re just into that kiddies talk, again.
And Champagne is for Parisians or tourists.
In 3/, you obviously didn’t get the point. Since I’m quite busy, I suggest you read my first comment again and see what my capricious examples IMPLY.
Ever heard about “langue vivante” ? See the connection? See why it can’t be, as you put it “a game and a living thing”.
That’s another bullshit statement by the way: conjugating any word in a whimsical way is a game, and nothing more.
Unless you’re trying to tell me that grammar and conjugation rules are just here for decoration.
Is that what you mean?
I disagree on the more common use of “charger” and I notice you dropped “uploader”.
However, if you need further examples of “Franglais” (You did know of course that there’s even a word to describe this way of using English words in a French way? Did you?) browse the forums, walk in the French streets, enter a McDonalds in Poitiers or whatever.
–mercatique is gaining ground day after day, whether you know it or not.—
Once again you’re being so authoritative that you must have some facts, number or studies to lay the foundation for this statement? So?
Or are we just having another “My Daddy is taller than your Daddy” session?
— You can be detested AND be elected —
Well, I guess that settles the deal. I know it’s been hard on the lefties around here to discover so brutally how discredited and thrown away they were but that’s the horrible truth.
I’d call that “reversed payback” or something.
I also understand you’re probably one of them, which is why you desperately want to see Chirac hated by the majority of the French.
Time will tell – it won’t be the first time something unexpected happens in a French election (sing after me “bye bye Lionel!”) — but you’re going to have a hard time catching up on the shameful prestige Chirac won toward the French, particularly these past months.
I have news for you, the President is not exactly perceived as the Government in France, see what I mean?
Now if you really want to tell me that Chirac “stole” the elections and is in fact genuinely detested by a majority of the French (probably the same as those who still think he was right with Iraq, in the latest polls), I’ll leave you in your Socialist Dreamland, waiting for the New Dawn.
— for sure know there’s French attendance here (and not necessarily rightists, believe me). —
Yep, I know. That’s because the lefties have nothing better to read.
— I’m flattered to be introduced to you, TDF. –
Hold on sweetie. We’re not introduced yet.
And I’m not going to marry you anyway.
— your ideas are really 100% compliant with libertarian blabla –
Huh? What’s the point exactly between defacing Voltaire’s mother tongue with senseless barbarisms in a ridiculous “language protectionism” behavior and the compliance of my ideas with whatever you’d wish they’d be compliant?
Seems to me that you’re falling back onto ideological positions… Retreat? That’s very French as well.
You’d rather face the numerous arguments of my initial comment, instead of dropping the ball. Be a man my son, come on, give me some!
— I just wonder why you’ve been waiting so long before you & your French friends decided to help me grow up. Please come back: I can’t wait… –
I wasn’t exactly “waiting”. I just saw some light and came in. Then I saw a sort of mongolian claiming he knew everything about anything and posting brainchild so I thought he deserved a good spanking.
I’m for a strong and overbearing education. See? I guess I’m not a libertarian then.
As for the rest, I’m afraid I’m not here to help you grow up. Sorry.
The thing is, in this country, I’m being forced to pay taxes for the State to do it.
So stop wasting my tax money and go back to school.
In my French family everybody says email…except the Quebequois branch. I would speculate that the French won’t use ‘courriel’ (or it’s clever spam- identifying shootoff, ‘pourriel’) because they’d rather stuff as many English words into their sentences as possible…exactly like so many Americans do with French words.
TDF,
“And Champagne is for Parisians or tourists” >>> unauthoritative statement ?
I guarantee you “courriel” is no barbarism. You also find “tutoriel”, “pourriel”, “partagiciel”, “gratuiciel”, “clavardage” etc.
“Ever heard about “langue vivante” ? See the connection? See why it can’t be, as you put it “a game and a living thing”?” >>> sorry I don’t see the contradiction between a living language & word creation (actual or absurd).
“I disagree on the more common use of “charger” and I notice you dropped “uploader”” >>> well, we disagree & I dropped “uploader” because it wouldn’t have added anything to what I said.
“ Unless you’re trying to tell me that grammar and conjugation rules are just here for decoration” >>> grammar rules do evolve even if it is not ratified by the élite (give me some time & I’ll find you some instances of that). As for conjugation, some forms of subjunctive are almost extinguished & there’s this growing confusion between future & conditional among youngsters; may be conjugation change will be greater in the next 20 years as it has been in the last 100 years. The trend is working anyway.
“(..) if you need further examples of “Franglais” (…)” >>> as I said before, the “courriel” story isn’t just about franglais (or Frenglish), it’s more about word competition. There are loads of franglais words that are just fine like “réaliser” (the ultimate acceptation being “understand” in addition to “make real”) or “tennis” or “sport”, although the 3 of them derive from French. There are even franglais words like “tenniswoman” (female tennis player) which don’t even exist in English. This is not a problem. The problem is why “courriel” shouldn’t compete with “e-mail” whereas the former conceals major adavantages?
And by the way, the soon-to-be-replaced-by-“ courriel ” French “ e-mail ” has some eerie English cousins :
– adminiculation (aid)
– anacephalise (sum up)
– assate & assation (roast)
– attemptate (attempt)
– cautionate (caution)
– deruncinate (weed)
– effectful (effective).
All those words disappeared because English-speaking people didn’t want them. My bet is that Fr “e-mail” will soon face the same fate as Eng “anacephalise”.
Mercatique vs marketing: (please also note “mercaticien” & “mercaticienne”)
http://www.cnam.fr/home/formations/comm_mark/
http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/ecogest/idxmerca.htm
http://geronim.free.fr/ecoent/cours/la_mercatique.htm
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2011678064/artvisitwww-f-livres-21/171-8827585-3100269
http://www.apec.fr/fonctions/fonction_051/main.html
http://www.hortilan.com/e-formation/bts/btstc/btstc.htm
“You can be detested AND be elected” >>> I wasn’t putting up the case for or against Chirac; was just saying that gaining power & being viewed as someone desirable are two different things. I’m not a leftist but I think most of the French don’t like Chirac (19%) as they didn’t like Le Pen (18%), nor did they like Jospin (16%). What they probably like in Chirac is the fact he’s been resilient to huge humiliation coming from every possible source (political “friends”, political enemies, justice, USA etc). But that doesn’t guarantee success for 2007. He who would tell the 2007 outcome now probably doesn’t exist. And again, Chirac’s opposition to Bush’s war was universally respected; not because it was Chirac’s idea; just because it was fair.
“ That’s because the lefties have nothing better to read” >>> this was obviously no “ my Daddy is the strongest in the world and even, he has a gun, even, and he kicks your Daddy anytime is true coz I say so” attitude…
“ Hold on sweetie. We’re not introduced yet. And I’m not going to marry you anyway” >>> that’s at least one thing we do share in common.
“ Seems to me that you’re falling back onto ideological positions (…)” >>> I haven’t got the slightest ideological position, except my own prejudice.
“So stop wasting my tax money (…) ” >>> this isn’t “your” tax money: this is ours…
A la revoyure…
>>”The metric system is a French reform (…)” >>> it’s a scientifical achievement. Saying that gravity is English because Newton was English is just as funny as saying metric system is French.<< You catch that, folks? Metric came from GOD!
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“And Champagne is for Parisians or tourists” >>> unauthoritative statement ?
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Nope. It’s called “answering smartasses with equal silly jokes”.
Now wait a second… You were serious about Champagne in the first place? I don’t drink that dead donkey pee,
Sorry.
Let’s bet something else instead. I mean if you’re sooo serious.
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I guarantee you “courriel” is no barbarism. You also find “tutoriel”, “pourriel”, “partagiciel”, “gratuiciel”, “clavardage” etc.
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You “guarantee” these are no barbarisms? What are your credentials? Do you belong to the French Academy?
If not, let’s check a French dictionary.
The Larousse 2003 for instance:
Your “tutoriel” : no entry
Your “pourriel” : no entry
Your “partagiciel” : no entry
Your “gratuiciel” : no entry
My “barbarism” on the other hand, is in the Larousse:
“Masculine noun.
Language mistake consisting in the use of a nonexistent or deformed word. Also the word used a such”
Since you apparently have a few difficulties with the French, let me emphasize the important words for you:
“Language mistake”, “use of a nonexistent” (i.e. “no entry” in the dictionary), “deformed” (your “pourriel”, “partagiciel” and “gratuiciel” are the winners here) and “word”.
Get the point? Now the French Dictionary GUARANTEE you that your barbarisms are… nothing else, as far as French is concerned.
Okay, what else… Oh wait, you thought I forgot “clavardage”? Fear not:
your “clavardage” is defined as :
“Masculin noun (from “clavier” and “gossip”).
QUEBEC. Clavarding ; chat”
Not precisely what I would call a typical and widely used French word of France… That is why the French dictionary sees fit to precise its FOREIGN ORIGIN and, what’s more… specify and precise its meaning with the original ENGLISH word.
Excusez du peu.
(Actually, this is the exact point where you should start scratching your head and wonder why the French dictionary resorts to the English to explain Quebecois – not that I think you can get the point but still… Scratch my son, scratch.)
So this “clavardage” is not a barbarism, it’s a FOREIGN LANGUAGE word, a funny idiom extracted from the patois talked by a handful of linguistic bigot over there in Quebec, that’s TOLERATED in French.
Another foreign word for instance, is “parking” which is English AND in the French dictionary.
That say, you have a long way to go before the French start using your “clavardage” as much as they use “parking” (or even “email” for that matter. Let’s stick to the problem at hand shall we?)
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well, we disagree & I dropped “uploader” because it wouldn’t have added anything to what I said.
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No, you dropped it because you didn’t find a French equivalent. And no matter the disagreement, “charger” doesn’t render fully the meaning of “download”, hence the franglais “downloader”.
“Charger” is used instead of “load” when talking about launching a program (loading in memory). Oddly enough, for somebody who claims to master French such as you do, you missed the actual word that’s being used conjointly with download (and indifferently – meaning without Laws or Edicts from the Glorious Republik de la France).
I’m not telling you which one, let’s see if you can find it okay?
And oh, don’t forget you still have to tell me what’s being used by the vaaaast majority of French instead of “uploader”.
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sorry I don’t see the contradiction between a living language & word creation (actual or absurd).
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Well, I noticed that, thank you. That was actually the point and the reason why I told you:
First to go back to my original comment,
AND
Furthermore, the reason why grammar and conjugation rules are NOT here JUST for decoration.
You’ll have to do your homework son, if you want the adults to take you seriously.
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grammar rules do evolve even if it is not ratified by the élite
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AND
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As for conjugation, some forms of subjunctive are almost extinguished & there’s this growing confusion between future & conditional among youngsters; may be conjugation change will be greater in the next 20 years as it has been in the last 100 years.
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I read somewhere that the goldfish’s retention doesn’t last more than 10 seconds.
Congratulation Kognac, you’ve just beat the goldfish: the whole point of the initial post is that this evolution, this switch from the correct word “email” to the barbarism “courriel” is NOT a natural evolution of the language. It’s an ARBITRARY decision enforced by the State, for ideological reasons.
You’re self contradicting and you can’t even see it.
That’s the problem with children. At first they’re funny. You can toss out things and they’ll fetch (yeah, like puppies)
Very funny, indeed .
But it gets boring quite fast.
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as I said before, the “courriel” story isn’t just about franglais (or Frenglish), it’s more about word competition.
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It’s not “competition” that’s at stake here, it’s a state enforced arbitrary decision.
You should check the Larousse on “competition”; you have a severe weakness as far as vocabulary is concerned.
Homework, kid, homework.
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The problem is why “courriel” shouldn’t compete with “e-mail” whereas the former conceals major adavantages?
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You mean the so called advantages you claimed at the beginning that I had great pleasure to debunk? Or you have “other” advantages?
Once again, you’re not reasoning nor arguing, you’re desperately acting like a child who’s trying to be right at all cost.
Your “advantages” are senseless, I exposed you why at first (I used a much more colorful adjective than “senseless” but that’s not the point) but you choose to slip away.
Actually, I think you should change your nickname from “Kosak” to “Slip”. That would fit you much better.
(For the most esteemed English audience, there goes the explanation of the joke: in French “slip” used as a noun is male or female underwear – and yes, this is another English word VERY widely used in French. Even when it’s a dirty one.)
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All those words disappeared because English-speaking people didn’t want them
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Yeah well. Goldfish Syndrome again.
Words were deprecated because people didn’t use them, correct.
Not because the government said they mustn’t use them. Get the point Slip?
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Mercatique vs marketing: (please also note “mercaticien” & “mercaticienne”)
http://www.cnam.fr/home/formations/comm_mark/ (etc.)
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So all you have to backup your statement on the tremendous gain of popularity of the ugly barbarism “mercatique” instead of “marketing” in the business area is:
– One pathetic personal page (geronim.free.fr/) from a guy that could be your little sister as far as I know,
– One shadowy semi-private high school of horticulture in Butt Hole Town, France that HAS TO conform with the Ministry of Education’s regulation anyway, if they want to have their accreditation renewed (www.hortilan.com).
The Ministry of Education itself (in Grenoble: http://www.ac-grenoble.fr), a school book (validated by the same Ministry – http://www.amazon.fr) and, God forbids, the CNAM? Or, for the English audience, the State ran French Social Security???
Is that your arguments and examples to demonstrate how widely the word is used within BUSINESSES???
Your examples are not only far from the business world, they’re also part of the people that are precisely advised (at best) or enforced (at worst) by the State itself to USE your barbarism instead of the correct English words.
I understand it’s not easy to live with the Goldfish Syndrome but you should try again Slip.
And of course, to know exactly what “business” means, you can, once again, search the French dictionary.
It’s in there, alongside “businessman”, “businesswoman”, “businessmen” and “businesswomen”. Oh, so many English words already in the French dictionary.
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I’m not a leftist
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Sure. And I love French movies quotes. How about this one:
“Quand un homme à des pattes eu’d canard, des plumes eu’d canard et des ailes eu’d canard y’a point de doute: c’est un canard.
Et c’qu’est vrai pour les canards l’est vrai aussi pour les p’tits merdeux.”
(quoted from memory)
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I think most of the French don’t like Chirac (19%) as they didn’t like Le Pen (18%), nor did they like Jospin (16%).
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Nice numbers. So you mean Chirac has NEVER been elected before 2002?
He’s running for presidency like a charm, even though everybody knows that he’s totally corrupted and he has been ever since he won the Big Prize the first time.
He’s a crook, they love him. Nice try but not with me, Slip.
Anyway, even if it wasn’t the case, the 2002 election was a huge surprise, supposedly unexpected and supposedly exceptional.
Are you therefore, building a generalization out of an exception?
No need to answer, I can see where you’re coming from.
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“ That’s because the lefties have nothing better to read” >>> this was obviously no “ my Daddy is the strongest in the world and even, he has a gun, even, and he kicks your Daddy anytime is true coz I say so” attitude…
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Yes indeed! It seemed perfectly appropriate to the school yard statement…
“Oh I know very well that I’m not the only French and what’s more I know something that you don’t it’s that there’s not only right-wing and all”
…That you fired up to avoid answering on the fact that you’re spreading fictious facts on the French life and customs in order to slip out when cornered.
Merry 14 of July? Hello-oh? Want to reconsider that fallacious claim? And the others?
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“ Hold on sweetie. We’re not introduced yet. And I’m not going to marry you anyway” >>> that’s at least one thing we do share in common.
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No really? You just broke my heart.
That was a joke my dear Slip.
Geez… It looks like you have something lengthy and rigid where the sun doesn’t shine and I can’t remember where I put the broomstick.
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“So stop wasting my tax money (…) ” >>> this isn’t “your” tax money: this is ours…
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I know it’s partly my money, because of my activity.
But as for you… Depends if you “earn” or “steal” your living.
Judging by the clumsy way you understood the word “business”, I have a strong presupposition.
A trick and a hint at the same time: In France (well, probably anywhere else, but I’m only talking about what I know), civil servants and assimilated don’t exactly pay taxes.
Try to guess why.
Then you’ll understand why I wrote “Depends…”
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A la revoyure…
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Oh I see. Now it’s not a fall back anymore, it’s a runaway.
Defeat déjà?
Very French indeed.
If I get any ‘courriel’ I’m signing them up for Brian’s webring… 😉
TDF,
I’ve got not so much time left to answer you. Forgive my lapidaire statements.
******
1/ “You “guarantee” these are no barbarisms? What are your credentials? Do you belong to the French Academy?”
You’re getting somewhat tiresome. I’m disappointed.
******
2/ “So this “clavardage” is not a barbarism, it’s a FOREIGN LANGUAGE word, a funny idiom extracted from the patois talked by a handful of linguistic bigot over there in Quebec, that’s TOLERATED in French”
How old are you? 12 or 85?
******
3/ Sweetie: use “émettre” & “recevoir” for “upload” & “download”. If there’s an IT subtlety I didn’t grasp, please tell me so.
******
4/ Mercatique: your opinion is respectable but it’s nothing more than what it is. You obviously don’t encompass anything longer than your nose’s leghth. Live with it.
******
5/ “this switch from the correct word “email” to the barbarism “courriel” is NOT a natural evolution of the language. It’s an ARBITRARY decision enforced by the State, for ideological reasons”
Right. You’re not 12. You’re 85.
******
6/ Stop your logorrhea about business: just make some good deals & avoid wanking nonsense. Thank you.
******
7/ “Quand un homme à des pattes eu’d canard, des plumes eu’d canard et des ailes eu’d canard y’a point de doute: c’est un canard. Et c’qu’est vrai pour les canards l’est vrai aussi pour les p’tits merdeux.”
I wouldn’t even translate that crap for our non French speaking audience.
You come from Normandy, don’t you?
Sorry. Good luck.
******
I’ve got headache now.
Your utterance exactly equates to bullshit. Get over it.
Nevertheless you’re a fighter (a loser though). So I shall adress you later if you’re still around.
I’ll be back in 20 days.
Take care.
Sans rancune aucune.
PS: tu deviens lourd – essaie d’être un peu plus incisif la prochaine fois. SMACK.
Kodiak – you are quite right to pick me up on the avoirdupois, French element of what I only called ‘English’ measures for convenience. Though of course various forms of foot, inch, pound, ounce were universal throughout Europe before Napoleon’s military interventions of the 1790s.
Likewise, sorry about exception francaise – I couldn’t be bothered to look up the gender, I admit.
Your other points are off though. I never said it was wrong to promote the French language [a lovely language, by the way] outside France, only that it is hypocritical to do this and complain bitterly about English words being used in France – given that no English-speaking country promotes the English language in France with the same funding and energy as the Institut Francais [masculine?].
Nothing wrong with promoting French culture abroad – just something wrong with doing that and complaining about other cultures influencing France.
Similarly, English-speaking countries never tried to impose ‘Anglo-Saxon’ weights and measures on France, but the drive in the opposite direction is relentless, mate. The metric system built up critical mass by being imposed through military force on European countries invaded by Napoleon.
Some English-speakers agree with you, Kodiak, about Anglo-Saxon measures being illogical or hard to use, but some do not. Some of us, myself included, see variety and diversity as important and beautiful among both languages and measurement systems.
Stop telling us what aspects of our culture we must abandon to adopt aspects of your culture, and we’ll stop criticising French moves to defend aspects of your culture which we aren’t even trying to make you abandon.
Mark,
Sorry if I’ve been unfair with the Anglo-Saxon (or Old French, ultimately) weights & stuff: I can’t get round to be measured in feet, stones or inches. But with you on variety: it’s good.
Who’s complaining bitterly about English words in French? The English vocabulary is infested with French words. So the current trend is just a fair comeback, all the more as English words finding eventual currency in French are very scarce. The rest is just blabla from the froggiest politicos or overageing library rats (or TDF).
The “courriel” story is different as I showed above.
I didn’t know that the French were obsessed to have the Brits quit avoirdupoids, miles, yards & other eccentric peculiarities. The UK is not a poor little girl attacked by a savage: if the UK drop farenheits & pounds, it’s because they don’t want them anymore. Right?
Don’t stop criticising France: spare the rod & spoil the child.