We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
|
New kind of game The Dissident Frogman has returned from his trip to Normandy, where he visited, among other things, the Musée Mémorial de la Bataille de Normandie (Memorial Museum of the Battle of Normandy) in Bayeux… He is, as always full of interesting observations and has a new game for his readers. It is called “Guess what’s missing at a museum dedicated to the Battle of Normandy, 1944?”
The game consists of three incredible pictures. My first reaction was – ‘surely, they could not go that far’. But alas, it is true. What’s more, he couldn’t get any lucid and convincing explanation for this “fortuitous” accrual.
Please go here to ‘play’ and perhaps engage in shooting off a few emails to the Mayor of Bayeux…
|
Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
We are also a varied group made up of social individualists, classical liberals, whigs, libertarians, extropians, futurists, ‘Porcupines’, Karl Popper fetishists, recovering neo-conservatives, crazed Ayn Rand worshipers, over-caffeinated Virginia Postrel devotees, witty Frédéric Bastiat wannabes, cypherpunks, minarchists, kritarchists and wild-eyed anarcho-capitalists from Britain, North America, Australia and Europe.
|
Well, I’ll be. And I thought it was Americans who were supposed to be crude and unsubtle.
Are any American newspapers aware of this?
When this gets in the mainstream, the French can kiss goodbye to any tourists from the USA, and I would hope all who recognise the Normandy beaches and cemeteries as a shrine to liberty and freedom.
Time to bring back our dead.
Mark, I don’t know. Let’s make them…
If this is true then I find it extremely distasteful. But I’d like to see a little more proof than 3 photos on some guy’s personal website – a guy who clearly has a major axe to grind. The mayor of Bayeux is a right-winger, a former member of the libertarian-leaning Démocratie Libérale. The museum director would be his appointee. I don’t know. I just don’t think anyone with any authority would a) be involved, or b) be that fucking stupid. Maybe some disgruntled employee or something.
It may very well have been a disgruntled employee, in fact being France it probably was, but that still does not excuse the the Mairie of doing their duty, and ensuring such disgusting behaviour does not go unchallenged.
I have a picture of that museum on my sire, taken in 2992 – complete with US flay and US-marked Sherman tank.
“the libertarian-leaning Démocratie Libérale”
Wrong. DL has never been “libertarian leaning”. Call it “less socialist than chirac”, but not that much. Would you say Raffarin is libertarian-leaning ? He’s from DL.
By the way, it can not be the work of a single person. It’s a concerted action. Unionists ? regular workers ? Whoever, they shall be punished so sending an email to the mayor is a good start. Heads should roll, because the museum’s director didn’t mind. Isn’t it his job to ensure everything is fine ?
The French have really done it this time. If this proves to be true, when it gets into the press over here in the States, the French can kiss their entire export market to the US good-bye.
Also, knowing GWB, after this he won’t give Chirac the time of day.
The French had really better come to understand the hard facts of life. France and Europe needs us a hell of a lot more than we need them!
I have already sent an email to the Mairie and the Museum offering the Nazi flag I have in my possession. It was removed from the Mairie of Armagnac during the liberation of the town by my wife’s grandfather in 1944, but perhaps it might be more apt to fly this flag again in France than the Stars and Stripes.
following is the text of my e-mail to the mayor:
Sir,
My wife and I visited friends in St Leu several years ago and it was the most enjoyable trip to France I have ever experienced. I had wanted to see Mont-St-Michel ever since I had read Henry Adams’ book in college, and the Bayeux tapestry and Musee Memorial de la battaille de Normandie were fascinating. We look forward to returning with our children.
I recently was made aware that the Musee Memorial de la battaille de Normandie has French, Canadian, and British flags, but that the American flag is missing. I understand that France has been having difficult economic times with the strikes and drop in tourism, but I had no idea that things were so bad that you were unable to purchase an American flag. I would like to help. If you will tell me your address and the size flag required I will be happy to send you an American flag suitable for display at the museum. It is very unfortunate that France has fallen on such hard times, be assured that America will do whatever is required to assist, again.
I am sorry that I am unable to write this in french, my wife speaks french but she is not available to help. I speak swedish, russian and german, but have never had the opportunity to learn french. Thankfully the people of Bayeux have not needed to learn german or russian.
Sincerely,
Michael Sullivan
The Group Captain, can you please email it to us? 🙂
Group Captain, I always knew you were cool, but the ability to take pictures 99 years into the future is truly a talent.
On the downside, that means the France will still be there a century from now. Pity, that.
So, who’s missing on the flag pole, then?
I visited that museum in December last year. I didn’t go into the museum because it was Christmas day and it was closed. However, the US flag was at thatpoint flying outside. (There were other US flags flying on other memorials nearby). The countryside nearby is covered with the graves of thousands and thousands of graves of Americans who died to liberate the French, including an enormous graveyard just across the road. (This particular graveyard is actually British and not American, but the size of it gets the point across like few other things). To dishonour the memory of so many brave soldiers in this way is just despicable.
(There are some photos of the flags and the graveyard on my own blog here. You need to scroll down a little as they are mixed in with some photos of Gallipoli).
This sick idea of removing the US flag from where it’s been standing for decades makes me puke out of sadness when contemplating such a great deal of stupidity.
It also make me think about how rude the majority of the US people have been with all their Frog-bashing and their blind unilateralism… Not to mention the illegal war against the legal State of Iraq.
Cause, consequences… Egg & chicken paradox…
Kodiak.
blind unilateralism…
43 French military expeditions in Africa since 1960…
…and counting.
Is it just me, or did Kodiak just blame the Americans for the French decision to remove the American flag from the Normandy memorial?
The removal of the American flag makes him think about American frog-bashing?!
Kodiak just provided a textbook example of anti-Americansims, defined as everything that the US does is bad (bashing the French for stabbing us in the back over Iraq), and everything that is bad happens because of the US (the removal of the American flags at Normandy is somehow the fault of the Americans).
Kodiak, it goes much farther back than 2001. Read the bio of John Adams.
Besides, the froggies want US to be able to separate politics from business, why can’t they compartmentalize WWII and 2001?
Dear T. Hartin,
Let the masks fall from our faces. Yes, most of the French -not all- do not harbour an unlimited affection for Unitedstaters. And neither do I. You may call anti-Unitedstatishisms what I find it hard to put up with. I’m not feeling bad at overtly exercising my right to tell you what going wrong with your unilateralist attitude. But this doesn’t drive me to steal flags nor to fight the memory of the dead. Anyway. Amalgam always works… Nor did I assume that US were to blame for the flag removing >>> just the author(s) of the debated misdeed may have thought so.
Sandy: sorry >>> who is John Addams?
Dear Mark: do you want the list of US illegal “interventions”?
Sandy again: WWII & illegal war compartimentalisation >>> why did the US resort to WWII to stigmatise French-led opposition to roguish unilateralism?
Kodiak.
Hey, this is flattering! Why would I want a list of America’s illegal interventions, Kodiak? That list is pretty well-catalogued in America’s rather free press – the same free press I mentioned might like to check up on this story.
Am I missing something?
John Adams is a Founding Father and along w/Ben Franklin, one of our contacts w/france during the Revolutionary War. Absolutely brilliant man.
Why? Because we know we can never rely on anyone but ourselves and the Anglosphere excepting Canuckistan at this point.
Europe’s history with each other and US.
Wasn’t it nice of france to toy w/the idea of going to war w/Britain while Britain was occupied with US during the RW?
Sandy,
Thanx for the stuff about John Addams & excuse my ignorance.
Sorry to appear too heavy but what’s Canuckistan???
And what’s RW?
MARK: glad the list of US atrocities is available to readership in your “free” press (FoxNews for instance?) – sad it didn’t provoke any salutary reaction…
Kodiak.
America’s free press isn’t my free press, Kodiak. I’m British.
Revolutionary War
Canada
And didn’t some of our roguish unilateralist interventions in the Far East have something to do with france being bogged down and US wanting to help what was thought of at that time an ally? Indochina?
Oh, dear. This item has just hit FreeRepublic. I do hope the original post was true, because the mailbox of the mayor of Bayeux is about to explode…
Mark,
I think Kodiak was talking to me.
He was telling us how he thinks that liberating 25million people from Ba’athist tyranny was illegal and was reminding us how naughty our country was in ignoring sophisticated, caring and sharing, global consensus respecting countries like his own. I pointed out that France has performed 43 military expeditions in Africa since 1960. Great humanitarian enterprises like putting leading 20th century asshole Mobutu Sese Seko back in his Kinshasa palace 17 times. Did I say great humanitarian enterprises? Sorry I meant purely for Paris’ own ends. Here’s the link.
For what it’s worth our own country’s military adventures since WWII are documented at this interesting site
Weasel, of course there’s a good reason the flag is missing. They immediately notified our embassy once they noticed it was missing, but our embassy hasn’t sent one over yet.
As to the trinkets, I guess new stock hasn’t arrived from China yet.
I am astonished at the waste of everyone’s time and energy worrying about the French, being indignant at the French, caring one way or the other about the French. And why anyone bothers to engage in these spiteful little exchanges with that troll is ridiculous.
The France of today is a second rate power in every way, whose existence is owed to outside help, whose legacy in Africa and SE Asia is a disaster of butchery, statism and suffering. Like the Ottoman Empire of the 19th century, the collapse of the French Empire in the 20th was a monument to the failure of that people as governors, economists, militarists, and intellectuals. In a few decades, little will be left to even talk about.
As with an aging but dotty relative who is finally on his death bed, best to keep silent vigil and not bother the poor thing with meaningless conversation. No grip on reality, you know.
veryretired,
No. France is the ally of tryanny everywhere.
That is a concern to Americans because the burning lesson of 9/11/2001 is that tyranny anywhere is a threat to Americans everywhere.
The War on Terrorism is about getting the rest of the World to leave the USA alone. The problem is that the terrorists and the terrorist supporting nutters won’t stop until they are dead and the societies that spawned them Americanized or reduced to pastoral subsistance agriculture.
Face facts, tyrannies are irrational regimes. Irrational regimes get more irrational under pressure. The example of American power and success are undermining every tyranny on the face of the planet. So they are striking back at the thing causing them pain because they don’t know what else to do.
How can the Mullahs culturally repress their women with the example of Brittany Spears shaking her ass in their face.
How could Saddam and every other land/resouce/power hungry Tyrant do anything really world changing with the USA standing watch?
So they struck the Giant. They have sown the wind and will now reap the whilewind.
And France has chosen to be their ally in the West.
It is only a matter of time until France goes from supporting Hamas against Israel to supporting terrorism against the USA, because in the end all terrorism is aimed at the “Great Satan.”
Yes, sorry Mark (Holland), I was a bit slow in realising Kodiak was not chatting with me. I got all muddled in that long, knotty railway thread – and my natural egotism, anyway….
How crisp of you to describe Mobutu Sese Seko as an asshole! Didn’t he sometimes eat people for fun, or am I confusing him with Emperor Bokassa? Or is that not true about either of them? Should we snope?
Had 3 uncles who fought in France during WW2. One of them almost didn’t make it back.
I’d hate to think the flags (on pole, the pin, and the little one) were removed on purpose. I’d like to think there is some logical reason and I don’t want to jump to conclusions.
If just one of the three was missing, I could more easily believe a logical reason. But, all 3? I’m still going to wait and see what develops.
As for the ‘UNILATERAL – ILLEAGAL ACTIONS’ taken by the US recently as a brutal, torturing dictator was deposed:
1. I lost count of the countries that supported the coallition’s actions. I guess UNILATERAL must mean ‘without France’.
2. I guess putting into action what the UN Security council had decided, but were too afraid to do, is ILLEAGAL. No more sovereign rights for countries.
All actions must be approved by the UN!!!
I have a little Anglo-Saxon phrase for this: F%^&
YOU!! The UN controls nothing. The UN is nothing but a big joke. Look what country heads up the Human Rights Committee!!
(I’m waiting to see an audit of the ‘oil-for-everything-but-food’ program.)
BTW:
I think the UN, and whatever will replace it, is nice to have… to a degree. Countries should sit and talk things over. Diplomacy should *always* be tried.
But, in the event diplomacy fails, every country in the world has the right to wage war when necessary… and the country that wages it doesn’t need anyone’s approval.
No country has to have the ‘permission’ of the UN or any other body to act in its own best interests (to protect its citizens).
I was not too thrilled about going into Irag. However, since I’ve seen the mass graves and read about what the Iraqis endured under that mad man, I’m sorry we didn’t act sooner.
We waited too long. We should have deposed Saddam years ago. It would have saved an awful lot of lives had we gone in sooner.
At the rate that France continues to revise history, not a soul over there will even know that the United States was involved in WWII at all.
Sandy,
Thanx for taking the pain to explicitate names & stuff.
US wanting to help France in Indochina???
France was kicked out brutally as she deserved to be >>> colonislism etc.
But please, the smart US landing in Vietnam to help then French (already gone for good!) is the best joke ever.
As for Iraq, the French warned you about Vietcong, North Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh etc.
But hey! That was you first lesson in humility… You never learn best than by yourself. Advice won’t pay.
Kodiak.
To Mark Holland,
1/ again, I’m not the spokesman of the Fr gov
2/ neither do I think Fr is an angel >>> that’s why I’m for the UN to counterbalance the overdimensioned egos of certain States as France, USA, UK etc.
3/ it’s not because Fr habits may be hard to get rid of that I won’t recognise the unquestionable validity of the opposition to the Bush war against Iraq, should it be led even by those awful Fr…
Kodiak.
Dear Veryretired,
You seem to be very fatigued too…
Don’t worry too much about the Fr health.
Maybe you should focus on Indian one, instead.
(I know it’s stupid & Fr).
Why not also exercise your overspilling mental energy and analyse the current germs of US decadence, like nepotism for instance, or democracy by appointment.
I wish you a pleasant & long life.
Kodiak.
I think you should all calm down and have a look at the dissident frogman’s latest update.
A flag is missing from a pole, and a couple of flags are missing from a gift shop. DF says there were plenty of other American flags about the museum. I think there could be a lot of simple explanations that don’t require and anti-American conspiracy.
Dear rational Trent,
1/ “France is the ally of tryanny everywhere”
God! I’m the devil & I wasn’t aware of that…
2/ “that tyranny anywhere is a threat to Americans everywhere”
Was Pinochet a threat to Unitedstaters?
3/ “The War on Terrorism is about getting the rest of the World to leave the USA alone. The problem is that the terrorists and the terrorist supporting nutters won’t stop until they are dead and the societies that spawned them Americanized or reduced to pastoral subsistance agriculture”
That’s very fatalist, albeit fantasmagoric.
4/ “Face facts, tyrannies are irrational regimes. Irrational regimes get more irrational under pressure. The example of American power and success are undermining every tyranny on the face of the planet. So they are striking back at the thing causing them pain because they don’t know what else to do”
Waow. That’s a very rational rationale on irrationality.
5/ “It is only a matter of time until France goes from supporting Hamas against Israel to supporting terrorism against the USA, because in the end all terrorism is aimed at the “Great Satan.”
Shall I smile or cry?
You’re inferring that Israeli misdeeds are somehow more acceptable than Palestinian ones.
Then you extrapolate to France & deem this country a potential threat to the USA.
I thought this kind of deplorable absurdity was burried for good with the Stalinian trials of the 30s.
History is just a never-ending start…
PS: just bear in mind Fr intelligence contribution a feways before your country was stabbed in the back on 9/11 (not by Fr terrorists for aught I know).
Kodiak.
Dear Mark (not Holland >>> sorry for the “not”)
Yes Moboutou & Bokassa (“Emperor” of the Central African Republic) were more or less French-teleguided despicable creatures.
But perhaps Idi Amin Dada of Ouganda (am I correct?) was the one eating man flesh.
Kodiak.
Chris,
I feel very touched that some members of your family left their country & took an active part in fighting to remove Hitler from remote Europe.
1/ “I lost count of the countries that supported the coallition’s actions. I guess UNILATERAL must mean ‘without France’. ”
The countries supporting Bush’s dreams were mainly: UK (as usual), Spain (needs reshaping emerging home oil industry), Italy (no comments), Poland (scared by Russia & affected by a vassalage syndrome), Japan (shocked by North Korea).
The main countries supporting the peaceful alternative to slaughtering innocents were: France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Belgium, Mexico, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, China & South Africa.
+ the population of Spain, Italy, Poland etc.
2/ Many thanx for the little Anglo-Saxon phrase.
That’s a fair answer to the public Fr “eff off!” to Bush.
3/ “But, in the event diplomacy fails, every country in the world has the right to wage war when necessary… and the country that wages it doesn’t need anyone’s approval.”
UN laws (signed by Iraq & by bad-paying USA) have it that any country is entitled to wage war as it is attacked & so delievering self-defence. They also have it that preventive, pre-emptive wars (I attack you because I’ve got the feeling you could attack me) are TOTALLY PROHIBITED, whether you like it or not.
4/ Nobody here says that Saddam being ousted isn’t a good thing.
Just your very short-term vision of the future is -not a potential- a guaranteed source of much, very much greater dangers you don’t even have a clue of (& neither do I).
Kodiak.
Dear Watcher,
At the rate that the US continues to ignore history, not a soul over there will even know that the United States won’t be involved in WWIII at all.
Kodiak.
Becky, spoke to Dissident last night and we agreed that there is definitely something rotten in the country of France. The fact that the Polish flag was missing as well, is a dead giveaway. The reason he wrote the second post is because he got some ‘radicals’ coming over to his comments sections and things were getting nasty. His and my original point holds though…
Kodiak: Please limit the number of comments you make or we will do it for you. Feel free to make a point but do not feel free to make largely ejaculative comments one after another.
From LGF : LGF.
The US flag is not missing. It’s not supposed to be there.
Here’s your lucid and convincing explanation for this “fortuitous” accrual.
Phillippe, may I refer you to the comment by Michael here. In any case, what about the other two places where the US flag was missing…
Dear Admin,
Feel free to ban me anytime you sense the need for that. It won’t hurt me.
If you have a further glance to the posts above, you’ll see that each of them is a specific answer to one question someone asked me.
I’m sorry to ejaculate in your world. If that’s too much for you to stand, just cut off the source of the nuisance at your best convenience…
Kodiak.
Kodiak,
Stop trying to be martyr, there’s a good chap.
Gabriel, Michael doesn’t says the US flag is not displayed in front of the museum. So does the Dissident Frogman. So does Eugène Volokh.
The Normandy Battle Musuem displays the US flag indeed. The Sherwood rangers memorial, located near the museum, does not, because the Sherwood rangers is a british regiment. The empty pole is for the regiment flag to be displayed on certain occasions.
what about the other two places where the US flag was missing ?
Those 2 other places are in the gift shop, where small americans flags and pins are missing. Big deal. Don’t you ever find a missing article where you shop, Gabriel ?
David,
Thanx for your attention.
Seems that Mr Admin can’t put up with Fr maladroitness in commanding English & with debating on a one-question-one-answer basis.
Well, martyrdom is not for me, just like above-mentioned Admin’s problems aren’t either.
Final dot.
Kodiak.
Phillipe, of course! I’ve got! It’s all the French buying US flags and pins to celebrate 4th July! They sold out and the state-run French economy cannot cope with predictable increase in demand. Apologies all round. Mystery sorted…
No, I am not really used to shops not missing stuff when I go shopping…
I just love this one from our pal Kodiak:
“The main countries supporting the peaceful alternative to slaughtering innocents.”
Um, I believe it was Saddam that was in the innocent-slaughtering business, which puts those who support the “peaceful alternative” to removing him, well, not exactly in the anti-innocent-slaughtering business. Perhaps this should read “The main countries supporting the peaceful alternative OF slaughtering innocents.”
Depending on how you count, the coalition has either saved more lives than it took by now, or it will have done so very soon. That means that the net impact of the invasion on innocents will be a positive, not a negative.
And as for the slaughterees, we have found them, so we know they exist. Or used to, anyway.
Gabriel, the irony doesn’t become you. I can safely bet the gift shop of the museum offers a wide choice of memorabilia, from t-shirts to mugs. Among those dozens of articles US pins and US flags were missing this particular day the DF visited Bayeux. Can’t you find a more plausible explanation for that than anti-american hysteria ? Especially in a museum where, according to the DF himself it’s worth mentioning that half of the museum is dedicated to the American Sector of the aforementioned battle. ? Do you seriously beleive a shortage of american pins is an anti american statement ?
Or will you acknowledge that the story is somewhat overblown ?
To T. Hartin,
The fact is that indulging in maccabre counts seems to give your views the immediate credibility they deserve.
As with Actualised Value stuff used in assessing investment returns & tralala, shall we also take the future millions of dead caused by a stupid war as an input to be actualised to its present value?
That may put your cadaveric equation back to the right figures…
Kodiak.
Well, right at the top of this comment section I expressed doubt. What this comes down to is that a souvenir shop in a provincial museum in Normandy had no American flag pins or plastic mini-flags on a certain day. And you want to make a huge fuss about that? This takes knee-jerk Frog-bashing to new heights. If you want your posts to be taken seriously, Gabriel, I’d amend an update to this one if I were you.
Taken seriously by whom?
The photo I linked to was not of the same set of flagpoles the Dissident frogman mentioned, no, although they were outside the same museum. I would be interested to see if the frogman looked at the flagpoles I did photograph. I have just gone through my photographs and unfortunately I did not take one of the set of flagpoles he mentioned.
However, I certainly did look at the flagpoles, and I have a distinct memory of there being British, French, and American flags. This was the set of flagpoles in pride of place outside the museum. The flagpoles that I did photograph, which commemorated the efforts of a larger group of countries, were in a slightly less prominant position. Certainly, if there had not been an American flag this would have surprised me and I would likely remember it. (None of this is incontrovertible proof. It is possible my memory is faulty, but I doubt it).
My impression of Normandy last December was that the local people were very conscious of what had happened there in 1944, and certainly that included the fact that the American role was central to that – much more so than people in other parts of France. This is why I find the frogman’s observations to be surprising. However, something does appear to be wrong.
Kodiak:
you said:
“The countries supporting Bush’s dreams were mainly: UK (as usual), Spain (needs reshaping emerging home oil industry), Italy (no comments), Poland (scared by Russia & affected by a vassalage syndrome), Japan (shocked by North Korea).”
my reply:
1. There were more countries, like Australia, but I won’t quibble. The countries you name are enough to remove the UNILATERAL label.
2. The course of action taken by Pres. Bush is not to satisfy his dreams (whatever they may be). Had Bush not acted as he’s acting now, he’d be kicked out of office.
The vast majority of the American people *want* our president to act as he has been. We’ve had war declared upon us. We ignored this declaration of war for as long as we could.
I know it’s become trite but, 9/11/01 changed *everything* for us over here. We now take that
declartion of war seriously.
You Said:
“The main countries supporting the peaceful alternative to slaughtering innocents were: France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Belgium, Mexico, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, China & South Africa.”
My Reply:
1. Just as you qualified the countries above, I’d like to qualify some of these countries you listed: France(Oil), Germany(Oil plus), Russia (? probably wants to suck up to the EU), Canada(has more hysterical anti-Americans than we do), Belgium(always does what France wants),…..
2. “Peaceful alternative to slaughtering the innocents”
This phrase has a nice ring to it. Unfortunately the innocents were being slaughtered *before* the war. They were being slaughtered for years by Saddam.
How many more Iraqi lives would have been buried in unmarked graves while we searched 10 more years for a ‘peaceful alternative’?
‘Peaceful Alternative’ seems to be in the eye of the beholder in this situation. Slaughtering innocents seemed to be some form of recreational activity for Saddam and sons. No peace for the average Iraqi while Saddam was in power.
“Peaceful Alternative to slaughtering the innocents” took place as soon as Saddam was out of power. It was peace brought by a sword.
You Said:
“UN laws (signed by Iraq & by bad-paying USA) have it that any country is entitled to wage war as it is attacked & so delievering self-defence. They
also have it that preventive, pre-emptive wars (I attack you because I’ve got the feeling you could attack me) are TOTALLY PROHIBITED, whether you
like it or not.”
My reply:
1. The US has had war against her declared by a group of terrorists. The declaration of war wasn’t taken very seriously, at first.
However after 9/11/01, the declaration of war was taken very seriously. We are responding to war being declared on us.
2. The group of terrorists, that declared war on us, don’t inhabit one country. They are dispersed throughout many countries. Some countries
give them aid, others don’t. The countries that aid the terrorists are considered to be siding with our enemies. (I use enemy because that is the term used between two groups that have a declaration
of war between them.)
The strike against Iraq was justified, under the conditions of a declared war. There were other justifications as well such as Saddam violating the terms of Gulf War I’s cease fire.
3. Although I believe the US didn’t violate any UN ‘rules’, there is no one body that can prohibit one country from waging war against another.
It’s nice to have treaties. History has shown us that treaties can be treated as just pieces of paper if a country feels threatened or has world domination aspirations.
When it comes to the defense of the US (or any other country), it’s the citizens of that country who will decide the best way to defend themselves. UN or no UN.
You Said:
” Nobody here says that Saddam being ousted isn’t a good thing.
Just your very short-term vision of the future is -not a potential- a guaranteed source of much, very much greater dangers you don’t even have a
clue of (& neither do I).”
My Reply:
1. The future is always a gamble. Defending yourself doesn’t guarantee that you won’t make things worse. However, I’d rather die trying to defend myself than live with constant fear.
2. We know what the years of negotiation with Saddam brought –> LOTS of dead Iraqis. We’ll see what this new tactic brings.
There’s a saying: A fool is someone who tries the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Had we kept negotiating, we would have been fools.
I want the US to stop the terrorists who have declared war on us in any way possible. Try negotiations and diplomacy first. Put a time
limit on negotiations. If negotiations fail, back up the diplomacy with military intervention.
Umm, there is a reason why the pole is empty. The Sherwood Rangers flag is raised once a year. No other flag is raised on that pole.
–At the rate that the US continues to ignore history, not a soul over there will even know that the United States won’t be involved in WWIII at all.
—
Kodiak, WWIII ended when the Wall fell.
We’re in WWIV which will probably be a combination of blood (WWI/WWII) and Cold.
Hi Chris,
FIRST BUNCH
1/ Sorry for Australia. Of course she is an important element of the war camp.
2/ Excuse my being ingenuous, but why Bush would have been kicked out of presidency in the case he refused the oil war? Because of powerful corporate interests?
3/ I totally understand that 9/11 is not just only a traumatism but also something demanding a genuine, thorough self-questioning with obvious implications on US foreign policy.
SECOND BUNCH
1/ Rest assured no-one in Europe thought 9/11 was a only a contingent happening. Many people, from the very first day & hours on, have actually appreciated the full range of what it meant, & I know people who even thought it was even more dramatic & that a dark disaster would break out SOON.
2/ OK the terrorists are using innovating channels to fight overorganised States by exploiting their feeble points (like the mosquito with the lion).
OK those terrorists must be sought for, found & eliminated without too much philosophy & blabla. I agree on that. But that’s one thing.
The other one is that, though Saddam is a shame to Humanity and mad enough to dare to believe he’s got the slightest chance to measure up to Western democracies etc, I think this disguting creature has nothing to do with Ben Laden & Co. It’s not the same background, not the same objectives. Saddam has been removed & Ben Laden (or whatever slowly grows behind this flag-name) has not. Saddam is easy to be shot at as an elephant in a corridor, BL is not. Saddam intelligence just can’t infiltrate & cancerise Western societies, BL already has.
On a more legal point of view, please forgive my stubbornness >>> THE WAR AGAISNT THE STATE OF IRAQ WAS ILLEGAL AND UNNECESSARY.
3/ I won’t contradict your development about treaties because we have respectable different conceptions of things.
Shall I be provocative to remind you that from Indian wars on, the US has seldom respected its signature?…
THIRD BUNCH
1/ You’re right about anticipating rather than awaiting your fate like a sheep. That’s sound.
Except that not all States shared the US (authentical?) fear of Saddam.
2/ What you say can’t be opposed because it’s sheer common sense.
Me too I’m not happy when I see the atrocities made by Saddam.
Just I feel EXTREMELY distrustful about US ultimate motives, with respect to its past proven credentials in gross ingerence, cynical greed, indifference (not to mention overt hostility) towards human rights & bodies alike as long as those humans are conveniently labelled unprivatised, socialists, communists, evil, terrorists, plotters, insurgents or anything else. (Please note I’m not an activist, not a communist etc).
It’s too easy to decide on your own which human being is worth living & which shall die or live in misery in complete indifference.
Likewise, I’m happy that some countries dared the US & teach this particular country (out of 195 equal ones) it doesn’t & won’t have the right to monopolise the life of HUMANITY.
The US is not Humanity. It’s just a part of it. Maybe the strongest part, not necessarily the best one.
Kodiak.
he French person who committed this act has dishonoured his own flag. I was in Bayeux and thereabouts for the D-Day anniversary in 1994, along with my aged stepfather, a veteran of the invasion of Normandy, and we visited that museum rthe same day we visited my father’s grave in the immaculate British war dead cemetery (he was killed in a field near Bayeux after surviving the landings).
For the record, I have fond memories of the people of Normandy, who welcomed us (me too!) with warmth and great respect for my stepdad (my dad’s brother) “un veteran”.
Whatever the rest of France may have thought of us, Normandy has not forgotten and has not stinted its gratitude.
I was able to collect the memorial medal struck for the anniversary, pinned to my chest in my father’s place by a regional bigwig in Caen (a city virtually razed in the liberating of it).
The museum was a great experience, and there were many, many Americans on that pilgrimage, with the majority of our little parade in the Caen mayor’s parlour being Yank veterans of D-Day and beyond.
I bet it will transpire that the person at the museum who has done this is 1. Under 40. 2. Possibly an immigrant (or a closet Nazi).
Here’s hoping.
And BTW, what a pity this thread should have been atomised by people feeding the troll called Kodiak. This is a person of malicious intent and low intelligence. Ignore such creeps.
Kodiak:
(My last response in this thread)
You said:
“2/ Excuse my being ingenuous, but why Bush would have been kicked out of presidency in the case he refused the oil war? Because of powerful corporate interests?”
My response:
Seems as if the change that happened over here due to 9/11/01 has not resonated with you. I’ll try and spell it out.
You wish to believe President Bush took the actions he did because of Oil, fine. But, don’t neglect France’s Oil interests as well.
Also, an audit of the UN’s ‘oil-for-anything-but-food’ program would be interesting. Don’t hold your breath thinking this will *ever* see the light of day. Too many ‘hands in the till’.
In my world, in the US, President Bush acted
the way he did because the American people wanted him to act. You can believe it was for oil, but it was not. We could get oil cheaper. Don’t need the expense of a war and its aftermath.
Perhaps you didn’t catch President Bush’s various speeches about how the US will go about defending itself against a non-state that has declared war on us? He stated that *any* nation giving aid to the terrorists was on warning that the US may intervene militarily to defend ourselves.
If President Bush had *not* taken the actions he did in Iraq and if we had another attack in the US, using weapons obtained from Iraq, President Bush could kiss the presidency goodbye. That is, if he survived the lynch mob.
One of our president’s main tasks is to protect the US. He is acting according to the will of the vast majority of US citizens. You would not be aware of this if you only read papers like the NY Times and /or get your news from the BBC.
If President Bush had ignored all the intelligence info. about Saddam and his weapons program (which was never in doubt, even in the UN), the American Public would have thrown him out of office for leaving the US open to attack from our enemies. ==> This *would* have been an issue in the next presidential campaign.
President Bush has acted in a very restrained manner since we were attacked on Sept. 11. If he were to take the actions many Americans wanted him to take, the MidEast would be the proverbial ‘parking lot’ today.
We are an impatient people. This can be a flaw. However, we are also a people who believes in solving problems as soon as they arise, when possible. We are aggressive when it comes to solving problems. The terrorists are a problem. We’ll solve this problem.
We don’t want to see a repeat of Sept. 11, although most everyone here is expecting it. In order to win the war that has been declared on us we are willing to do *whatever it takes*, for *as long as it takes*.
President Bush seems to have taken the country’s “pulse” and is acting according to the American People’s Wishes. We are ready for war. We want this war over as soon as possible. We realize many Americans may die in this new war. So be it. We will wage this war. (It’s very sobering to realize the grim determination that has settled over the American Public.)
We were fools to ignore the war that had been declared upon us. Our foolishness resulted in the events of Sept. 11. No More!!
I say this as a person who did not vote for President Bush, who was angry when he became president, and who would rather walk away from a fight than actually have to fight. I’m not a typical US ‘flag-waver’. I hate war. I want to negotiate peace with other countries via talking.
I’ve taken part in peace rallies (during the 60’s), justice rallies, ‘you name it’ rallies. I have a radical political background. I could never imagine myself being in favor of a war like we waged in Iraq. I could never imagine myself liking President Bush.
I’ve changed. So have many other Americans.
We want a leader to share the feelings of the country. A wartime president. Taking the war wherever it may lead. It lead to Iraq. It will probably lead other places. We are ready and willing to go whever it leads.
The ways I’ve changed, like many more US citizens, is something even our own press here doesn’t quite grasp. So, I can’t expect someone from another country to grasp it.
I remember growing up during the ‘Cold War’. As a child, I was very scared. We would have drills in school about what to do in the event of a nuclear explosion. We had public air raid shelters in our cities and our TV stations would periodically test for being taken over in the event of an actual emergency.
The charge has been made, by some, that we have never known the fear of war because we’ve been isolated. Don’t know who dreamed this up, because it’s not true. Anyone who was a child during the 50’s and 60’s was aware of danger from ‘some country’. You couldn’t *not know* because of the constant reminders.
I was very aware, as a child, that some country had weapons pointed at the US. I never understood why the weapons were pointed at us, but I felt the fear of being a target.
I don’t want my children growing up as I did. I don’t want them to live with the fear of attack, as I did. I want them to enjoy life and not worry about attacks from anyone.
My greatest fear is we will not act soon enough. I want to prevent another Sept. 11, not just for the US, but for the countries in the MidEast. I am very worried about what we’ll do if we see anything else here like Sept. 11.
If there is another Sept. 11 here, I don’t think the president will be able to act with restraint. (The US *is* acting with restraint right now.)
As far as the UN and legal goes: The UN has no moral authority to dictate to any country how that country should respond to a declaration of war upon it.
Bottom line: I don’t care what the UN thinks. Let the UN stop the US from defending itself, if it can.
History has taught that signed pieces of paper need military power to be enforced.
I also don’t care what other countries think. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that no matter *what* the US does or doesn’t do, it will somehow be viewed as flawed.
Don’t care about pleasing the UN, EU, or any other entity. The US has had a war declared upon us. We will wage that war. We tried ignoring the war, but it didn’t go away. We got Sept. 11.
Oh, and I don’t care about why they hate us. I want them to worry about what the US will do if country X continues to supply aid to our enemies.
You can have the last word in this thread. I’m done with it.
Chris,
I very much respect your speaking heart wide opened.
All the pain you felt after 9/11 can also be compared to others’ pain further to distinct events originating in US blind anger, like witch hunting towards independent States for instance…
Kodiak.
To Dave Farrel,
The “person of malicious intent and low intelligence” would like to present his most humble homage to the far-seeing person of benevolent intent and high intelligence who decisively contributed to advancing the matter that far.
Kodiak.
Chris,
1/ “don’t neglect France’s Oil interests as well.”
Don’t worry: I don’t.
Fr corporate interests are as nasty as US or UK ones.
2/ “an audit of the UN’s ‘oil-for-anything-but-food’ program would be interesting”
You’re right, unfortunately!
3/ “In my world, in the US, President Bush acted
the way he did because the American people wanted him to act”
Yes? And why not act more targetedly towards Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Ben Laden et co instead of crushing Iraq & Frog-bashing France (get Bush many new votes for free?) or threatening Germany?
4/ “He (BUSH) stated that *any* nation giving aid to the terrorists was on warning that the US may intervene militarily to defend ourselves.”
Any??? I respell it for you: P-A-K-I-S-T-A-N, N-O-R-T-H K-O-R-E-A, S-A-U-D-I A-R-A-B-I-A.
5/ “If President Bush had *not* taken the actions he did in Iraq and if we had another attack in the US, using weapons obtained from Iraq (…)”
All right.
But where are the WMD?
In Chirac’s pockets?
6/ “If President Bush had ignored all the intelligence info (…)”
Are you referring to the ridiculous slides that Powell used at the UN or to the grotesque UK report Bliar is now being investigated for?
7/ “President Bush has acted in a very restrained manner since we were attacked on Sept. 11”
You surely must be joking…
8/ “We are an impatient people”
I know…
If you would have been a cautious & undisdainful people, perhaps you’d have paid extra attention to UK & Fr intelligence info you were given on a golden plate a few weeks before 9/11.
9/ “We don’t want to see a repeat of Sept. 11”
Who does, Chris????????????
10/ “President Bush seems to have taken the country’s “pulse” and is acting according to the American People’s Wishes”
Are you a wizard able to tell the future & read in people’s hearts?
11/ “We are ready for war. We want this war over as soon as possible. We realize many Americans may die in this new war. So be it. ”
Aren’t you falling in the trap that prowars of all feathers have prepared for you?
12/ “We were fools to ignore the war that had been declared upon us”
Well do know at least that I haven’t declared a war upon you nor upon the US. I’m just angry to see that everything leading to war is smartly scheduled like precision clockwork.
13/ “I want to negotiate peace with other countries via talking”
Chris, that’s great: we are 2…
14/ “I can’t expect someone from another country to grasp it. ”
I understand you are under shock and this is something almost impossible to share unless you experienced it too.
Believe me or not, but when I was happily sorting things out in my house on 9/11 at 3pm (that was the time in Fr), I started to split up as I heard the news on the radio. The first thought I had was for all the kids I know…
15/ “I remember growing up during the ‘Cold War’. As a child, I was very scared”
I wasn’t. Even if I knew as early as 6 or 7 that there were at least 2 or 3 Soviet missiles posted 500 km away from my home & configurated to nuke in 3 minutes the city I was living in.
I was confident & optimistic.
16/ “I don’t want my children growing up as I did. I don’t want them to live with the fear of attack, as I did. I want them to enjoy life and not worry about attacks from anyone.”
That’s unfortunately too optimistic.
You’ve got to cope with it.
17/ “My greatest fear is we will not act soon enough”
Chris, don’t mix or underestimate your enemies.
You Anglo-Saxons (sorry about that…) are really too much short-term oriented with ready-made, definite solutions etc, as in business & the rest.
The enemy isn’t Ben Laden or the next illiterate, manipulated, hating, angry bunch of determined unhuman mads.
The enemy is ignorance, poverty, unconsideration, misunderstanding, lack of sharing, disease, hunger, illiteracy, women abuse, law of the strongest, reluctance for old people, unsecurity, racism, lack of democracy, gun worshipping, unemployment, mockery, indifference, hegemony, selfcenteredness, laziness to hope, lack of respect, egoism, overrapidity & lack of tranquillity.
Those enemies are everywhere evenly distributed: as much in Fr as in the US.
18/ “If there is another Sept. 11 here, I don’t think the president will be able to act with restraint.”
On the contrary, Chris.
Everyone ought to hope that IF such an awful stuff happens, the guy in charge will act with redoubled wisdom and enlightenment.
19/ ” The UN has no moral authority to dictate”
For all I said above, allow me to calmly but firmly disagree.
20/ “I also don’t care what other countries think”
I’m sure it’s not what you really think.
It can’t be.
21/ “Oh, and I don’t care about why they hate us. I want them to worry about what the US will do if country X continues to supply aid to our enemies”
You’re not alone.
You’ve got friends.
Real friends aren’t necessarily smiling at you with a stupid gaze in the eyes all the time…
Kodiak.
>Are any American newspapers aware of this?
no because it’s false
ANARCHIE
Faudrait bruler les types de votre genres en premier