We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
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Imperishable words I post this on Thursday afternoon, just ahead of the day when our American friends take a break from the office, farm and factory to commemorate the birthday of their country.
And may these words stand, forever, as the guiding principles of the greatest nation on this planet.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
PS. Could we have the tea back from Boston, please?
PPS. Could we borrow this when it comes time for Britain to leave the EU, please?
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Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
We are also a varied group made up of social individualists, classical liberals, whigs, libertarians, extropians, futurists, ‘Porcupines’, Karl Popper fetishists, recovering neo-conservatives, crazed Ayn Rand worshipers, over-caffeinated Virginia Postrel devotees, witty Frédéric Bastiat wannabes, cypherpunks, minarchists, kritarchists and wild-eyed anarcho-capitalists from Britain, North America, Australia and Europe.
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No, you can’t. Sorry.
I don’t know, Johnathan. That particular bit of the declaration just means, “we want a divorce, and it’s only common courtesy to tell everybody why.” 🙂
Why look at the world through American eyes?
Ah, Della. Always standing by, ready to plant a turd in the punchbowl.
Della, don’t be a skunk at the picnic. The creation o the U.S. was done imperfectly. But the Declaration of Independence and liberal philosophy underpinning it, is worthy of commemoration.
Mind you, is there a nastier, more misleading piece of crap in our cinema than Mel Gibson’s The Patriot? grrr.
If we had waited for perfection in our (US) Government we would still be waiting. Perfection is an excuse to do nothing, perfection in government is an impossibility since perfection is continually being redefined.
You’re welcome to the D of I — I’d be happy to forward some of the good parts — but I think you’re SOL on the tea. You wopuldn’t want it after soaking it in Boston Harbo(u)r.
But Della is “perfect” so she gets to be snide and insulting to the rest of us mere mortals who are trying like hell to do what’s right. Poor delusional little thing!
But look at the bright side of things.
The United Empire Loyalists (UEL’s) decamped to Canada (Ontario, the Maritimes, mostly, some in the Eastern Townships of Quebec), and set about seething genteel Anti-americanism of the, we ain;t them kind, that persists to this day.
Heh.
Lets hear it for the Royal American Regiment, et al…
Fred
In my highschool government class, my teacher talked about a trip he made to London in the ’60s. Along the banks of the Thames there are warehouses and old trading houses that’s still much older than our republic. He went into one of the tea company, and the guy there showed my teacher the item lost during the Boston vandalism, still on the book is so far as the company is concern.
Why should I celebrate the birth of a state just because the statists told such pretty lies?
All I can say is my six year old is terribly confused–we fought against the British, with help from the French, and now we can’t stand the French but absolutely couldn’t do without Britain?
And he hasn’t even heard of Orwell yet.
By the way, would someone wrap Della in red, white and blue bunting please and sit her in the middle of a July 4th parade? Look at the pretty fireworks, Della. Repeat after me, ooh, aaah. I love my country. Ooh. Aah.
Tea kettle’s rattling.
Della, you shouldn’t. But the rest of us will be celebrating our asses off!! God Bless the USA! Beer, burgers, and fireworks then off to bed to sleep in the greatest social experiment ever achieved by human kind.
Thanks for the sentiments. BTW: You can come and get your tea anytime. It’s a bit soggy, mind, from being in the harbor for so long.
It’s quite possible that my relatives were among the soldiers on the British side. I’ve always thought that rather funny.
US is not greatest nation, but I like it. It’s made up of imperfect people doing things imperfectly. Until someone invents a human with no flaws, we’ll always be this way. Sometimes we’ll be horrrible in our decisions and sometimes we won’t.
The people who founded the US were imperfect. However as revolutions go, I think ours was very tame.
I don’t think there will be any question about helping Britain should she have any problems ‘departing’ from the EU. I’m very sad to see her join. I’ll be glad when she comes to her senses.
Whatever the resident cynics may say, I’m flattered by this post.
Ah, the British. A finer people there never was.
Chris Josephson – What your Revolution spawned is absolutely incredible. I wish all our American cousins – and Uncle Sam – warmest birthday greetings. I don’t care how sentimental this sounds, but you are a beacon to the world. And tomorrow my cat will be hanging cool in his red, white and blue Fourth of July collar in your honour.
Kelli, you told your six year old about the French? Why do such a thing?
When the revolution comes, won’t it be fun to shave Pearce’s head?
Hello from Boston, where we have fighter jets flying overhead to protect tomorrow’s firework-watching public. As for the tea, well… sorry about that.
(heh)
Della,
You are perfectly free not to celebrate the 4th. No one will check off a list to ensure that you are participating. No one will flood every channel of communication with long speeches about the glory of the republic. No one will deny you or your family access to education, medical care, or even food. No one will shake you down for contributions for patriotic funds “or else”. If anyone notices your dissent and vandalizes your house, the crime will very probably be pursued as strongly as any other case of vandalism.
But most of those who notice, will merely pity you. Have a nice 4th… or don’t, as you prefer. It’s a free country.
Della normally says some good things, but she must have woken up in a contrarian mood today. Whatever.
I sincerely appreciate all the kind words about our nation’s birthday. I honestly get a little choked up when thinking about how far America has come. I personally do believe it’s the greatest nation on earth. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, particularly those who don’t live here. I think patriotism for your homeland is an ingrained concept that we all share. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
However, I do want to share a thought that’s kind of bothered me for some time but haven’t been able to formulate. Chris Josephson comments about the imperfections of our founders brought this to the forefront for me. It kind of saddens me to think just how enligtened were that the group of men who founded our nation and threw their intellects and support behind the 3 founding documents (the Dec. of Indepence, the Constitution & Bill of Rights). What I mean by that long run-on sentence is that it seems like it was a fluke, it was pure luck that those men were able to get on the same page and create a nation whose principles I think are universal, but unfortunately are not universally shared.
They created a government not only “of the people, by the people & for the people” (yes, I know we are republic as opposed to a pure democracy), but created one that for most of it’s history was meant to be limited in power.
Everything that they put on paper between 1776 and 1787 was motivated by the idea of preventing tyranny. Some wanted a King. They said NO! Some wanted a National Bank. THey said NO! They wanted the president to be directly elected. They wanted one house of Congress to represent the people. They wanted another house to represent the states equally. THey gave separate powers to each knowing that they’d have to comprimise to get anything done. No one could run roughshod over the place.
Then they made the Supreme Court the arbiter of the whole thing. But, then they gave the States their own powers SEPARATE from the federal government. And then they came up with the bill of rights that put forth the idea that we are BORN with rights that simply can not be trampled on. They gave the president a veto, but one that could be overwritten. And finally, they basically said don’t hurt your neighbor but feel free to take up arms against your government if we get to big of a head.
And it’s been a resounding success despite some damn rough patches. Yet, no one copies us. That may seem like a self-absorbed gripe, but hear me out. Even Germany & Japan went with a parliamentary system that really keeps the power in the hands of political parties on choosing the leader of the country. I know Germany has some of the federalists tendencies that we do, but their governments which we had heavy influence over decided to copy other European models instead of ours.
Even the Eastern Europeans who seem as if they thought highly of the U.S. copied systems of governments from Europe rather than the U.S.
Look at the European Union’s proposed constitution. It’s what? 400 pages long? They believe they have to answer every question from the get go.
The genuis (and some would say it’s downfall) of the U.S. Constitution is it’s ability to evolve with the society governed by it. Despite the Civil War, slavery was also done away with via laws, without having to tear up the Constitution. Our nation has changed dramatically these last 227 years. We’ve had one of the bloodiest Civil War’s in history, we’ve had the great Depression, we had the incredible social upheavel of the 60s, 2 world wars and many small ones and the great idealogical battle of the Cold War. Yet, we still have the same document to look back to as a guide for our laws. It never needed to be re-written, just occasionally amended (which BTW, is damn difficult thing to do).
Yet, over the last century the very idea that the government shouldn’t be all powerful is foreign to a great many people, even those who grew up in or admire the U.S. This is sad. I guess that’s kind of what Samizdata is all about really. We need constant reminding that we should be in control of our own destinies.
I’m not a religious person, but I do sometime’s wonder what brought those group of men together in that place at that time and created something whose genius those men probably didn’t even realize. I genuinely thank whatever God there may or may not be that I live here. I love America with all it’s wrinkles.
Again, thanks for the kind words ya’ll.
I am not an American, I live in a whole other country. I have never celebrated July 4th and I never will. Tommorow I will go to work; nobody here will be doing anything special to mark July 4th because they don’t care. I november when you elect your politicians we burn a traitor in effegy and set off fireworks.
Della,
“No one will…” invite you to their barbecue. Nyay,nyah,nyah.
I am not an American, I live in a whole other country
Thank God, stay where you are.
Liberty Belle – thanks for the warm thoughts and wishes. I bet your cat will look cute.
When you think of the people involved in the US Revolution, it wasn’t Americans vs. the British.
It was the British vs. the British. The British believed (and still do) there are some principals worth fighting for. The British in the US colonies disliked having their rights trampled on. They decided the issues were worth a fight.
If it weren’t for the British ideas and ideals our colonists had, there would probably have not been a revolution.
They felt their rights as English subjects had been violated. We had a bunch of the right sort of people to urge folks to not take it without a fight.
Wow. Lots of love AND hate in this thread. You guys never disappoint.
Maybe the thing to bear in mind is that the American founding was an Enlightenment project through and through–fat with the conceit that we could create a fully rational basis for society and the nation. Some say it has worked, some say it hasn’t, some say it should never have been attempted, but it’s always interesting to note that anyone other than Americans themselves actually cares at all! This cannot be said even of Germany.
What that intense interest indicates, I think, is that there are issues of significance for all of humanity at stake, when we ask whether such an abstract, idealistic foundation for civilization is at all possible. In any event, Independence Day is always a time of mixed emotions, especially in the U.S. itself. We like to think it wasn’t that way “way back when,” but I’m sure that most people have always sensed that the very existence of the U.S. has raised more questions than it has answered.
Oh, well. Happy 4th to us just the same.
Chris Josephson – Very elegantly said, sir.
“We” burn an effegy of a traitor? But if founding a state is such a bad thing, then surely blowing a state up, literally, isn’t so bad. So why continue to celebrate the defeat of Guy Fawkes?
Well I guess tradition. Guy Fawkes aka Guido Fawkes aka John Johnson apparently did other stuff than just the gunpowder plot, he also talked to the King of Spain to try to encourage Spain to invade.
Political assasination historically has a bad record, I can’t offhand really recall an occasion when it has brought fourth good results, I can think of several occasions when it has been disasterous (e.g. WWI). I think on the whole it out to be discouraged.
Della,
Why should I celebrate the birth of a state just because the statists told such pretty lies?
Umm, there was no state born on July 4th, 1976. It was quite the opposite.
That’s the whole point.
Della is quite right about no one in England paying the slightest bit of attention to the Fourth, but then, why would they? My family are real fireworks fans, so they got shot off in the back garden while in London on both 4th July and 5th November. While November was of course “concurred”, the 4th of July fireworks were always met by bemused passersby jumping up to hang on the garden gate and ask, “Wot, did Chelsea win, then?”, or that miserable old fart next door calling the cops. But I celebrated anyway. Consternation to the enemies of the Republic!
I november when you elect your politicians we burn a traitor in effegy and set off fireworks.
Della, actually you burn a Roman Catholic in effigy. For 200 years after the Gunpowder plot, the pope was burned in effigy. With catholic emancipation, such overtly anti-catholic acts were deemed politically incorrect and Guy Fawkes was substituted. Guy Fawkes himself was hung drawn and quartered.
And a curious historical note: Guy Fawkes Night is not solely a British celebration. The tradition was also established in the British colonies by the early American settlers and actively pursued in the New England States under the name of “Pope Day” as late as the Eighteenth Century.
John Adams, ‘the colossus’ of the congress of 1776, etc.., etc., ’ yet in almost the same breath he ‘strenuously recommended to fine, imprison and hang all inimical to the cause, without favor or affection.’
Adams understood that you can’t win a war with traitors running around loose behind the lines. If only we had more like him in office today. Bravo Della, you’ve reminded us that peace and freedom comes with a price and wars aren’t won with pretty words.
ohn Adams was also the lawyer who defended the British soldiers of the Boston Massacre. He was a man who believed in the rule of law. That is, indeed, the greatest gift we received from the British – an assumption that truth and justice exist; that judgments are attempts (fallible ones, of course, decided by fallible people) to reach that ideal and are not merely laws of the state or whims of men. Justice transcends the tribal–much as we recognize the validity of such a sense of blood and home. I would also argue that the greatness of the founders–and of course that meant they didn’t face the great evil of slavery–comes because they were men from varied backgrounds; some were close to the Puritans in beliefs, some to the Deists, some were from the North and some from the South, and they already represented a variety of ethnic groups. It can be America’s strength, today – if we try to find a compromise among a diverse people (if all are well intentioned and really want the best for all and each of us tries to transcend our tribe–a loyalty that we acknowledge is also human nature). It is that diversity that led the founders to get, it seems to me, a stronger handle on what is truly “human nature”–truly universal. I get sentimental about Whitman’s catalogs and the concept of the melting pot. But that is because I get sentimental about the Fourth of July – and the fact that we choose our citizenship, consciously.
A further historical note: George Washington banned the celebration of Pope Day in the Continental army, to promote religous harmony and it quickly died out in most places.
It also seems the fireworks part of the Pope Day celebration got transferred to the new Independence Day holiday. The first Independence Day celebration in Philadelphia included bonfires, but the bonfire part seems to have died out, while the fireworks persisted.
Instead of returning the tea, we could pour a bunch of coffee into the Thames. That should get the fish stoked!
How’s this?
The Wall Street Journal of July 1 had the following notice:
“New York
The Declaration of Independence
Thomas Jefferson’s handwritten copy of the momentous document is on view at the New York Public Library…
Through August 2
(Closed July 4 and 5)”
Della, I guess you think a nation borne on the principles of man’s (and woman’s) right to life, liberty and happiness is not worth commemorating?
I see that Troll with the Airstrip one email address wants to “shave my head” hahahahaha! (I reckon he is a flunky from Tory Central Office)
“Here’s to a free English people who threw off the yoke of tyranny of a German King and his German Mercenaries”.
Heh heh. One of our US cable stations has decided to commemorate the Fourth of July by running a James Bond movie marathon. No kidding.
I love this country.
In Australia we do not celebrate Guy Fawkes Night. Catholics make up something like 40% of the Australian population, so it would not go down well. Instead we let off fireworks on the holiday weekend that we have to celebrate the Queen’s Birthday. Of course, the actual day of this holiday varies depending on the state…
Russ Goble writes:
…but I do sometime’s wonder what brought those group of men together in that place at that time and created something whose genius those men probably didn’t even realize…
I generally despise the BBC, and find their pet historian Simon Schama often irritating, but out of all his books, I really like the following publication, because it gets through 200 vital years, and treats them as a single piece:
A History of Britain, Volume II: The Wars of the British 1603-1776
After reading this, I came to the woolly conclusion that the US was the fruit of the British wars it describes, and the leaders of its revolution were the same kind of men as Oliver Cromwell; ordinary salt-of-the-Earth British men, driven in a pursuit of freedom, and unprepared to lie down and be tyrranised by a remote ‘divine-right’ king.
In fact, the US may be the kind of state Cromwell himself tried to build, kingless, and run for the people. But his Mark I Commonwealth had many flaws, including the troubles of his own personality, which proved insurmountable. Maybe the US is Cromwell’s Commonwealth, Mark II?
In Britain, after nearly 200 years of Catholic oppression, mixed with Protestant revolution, war, death, plague, and general devastation, I think your group of men were distilled out by these terrible forces, in the same way that the great men of classical Athens were distilled out by the great conflicts with Persia, and Sparta, to form that other great flowering of true classical liberty.
If you can get your hands on a copy, see what you think; I don’t think Simon Schama chose the end date as a mere coincidence.
If the US is the flower of 200 years of previous British destruction, what a fine bloom it has turned out to be! 🙂
I hope you’re having a great time, over there today, with your burgers, buns, and beer.
It is an ambition of mine to one day spend that day with you there too. And if I enjoy it too much, your immigration service may not be able to get me on the plane, to go back home! 🙂
Phil et al,
Guy Fawkes day in Britain is not anti-catholic, and is not, and never was called Pope Day. The anti-Pope, Pope Day on Nov 5th with burning of the pope in effagy was something that was invented in Boston, America in 1748, and evidently died out some years later. We started celebrating Guy Fawkes day in 1605. The pro-Pope Pope day is now celebrated on October 16th
Andy – Thanks for your ideas and the suggestion about A History of Britain, Volume II.
And welcome, come along whenever you can. This is a great place to visit and to live in.
Della- stay home and have a fun time burning whomever in effigy.
Oh, Della. That was maladroit. Phil quite clearly identified “Pope Day” as the name of the American version of the celebration only. The British version was, nonetheless, explicitly anti-Catholic. Quoth the BBC:
Really, Fawkes’ Catholicism is central to the story, ain’t it?
You brits are alright by me. I just wish y’all would take it easy on Prime Minister Blair. He may be a lib, but he’s about the best damn lib I’ve ever run across. His statements in support of the United States after 9/11 were truly inspirational, and he stuck with us on Iraq as well. We won’t forget that anytime soon.
Hey Della, I’ll think about you today while I am watching “The Patriot.” Still sore about that ass whuppin’, eh?
Fine, Andy Duncan. But how do you explain the eloquence of the Founding Fathers? It soars. It touches the spirit of everyone who reads or hears it whether they’re American or not. And think of the leap it took at that time almost 300 years ago to envision an independent country based on a vision no one had ever conceived before in the history of the human race, and in language in which the divine seems to touch the human spirit.
Actually, those documents (and the group of extraordinary men who wrote them) are the only thing I have ever read that might persuade me to believe there may, after all, be a guiding hand. I’m not American, but I do believe in Manifest Destiny. There have been mistakes, but after almost 300 years, the world still looks to the United States as a beacon of liberty and justice. There are six billion people on this planet and they all, in their heart of hearts, would like a Green Card (OK, not the EUrinals, because they don’t hanker after freedom. Fine. But the rest of us.) It’s extraordinary.
Jonathan Pearce wrote:
Mind you, is there a nastier, more misleading piece of crap in our cinema than Mel Gibson’s The Patriot? grrr.
“Bowling for Columbine”?
Or how about “Erin Brockovitch”? 🙂
“we fought against the British, with help from the French,”
Don’t think of it as help from the French, think of it as an alliance with the Bourbons (necessity is a harsh mistress).
Liberty Belle writes:
Fine, Andy Duncan. But how do you explain the eloquence of the Founding Fathers? It soars…
Well, I wasn’t there, so I don’t know, and my attempted woolly guessed explanation was, to misquote Mr Marlon Brando, all I got! 🙂
But does not war against tyrrany, and a struggle against oppression always bring the best out in humanity? And were not people like Benjamin Franklin educated in the classical tradition? Something I wish we modern Britons were taught.
Look at Shakespeare, in an age when we threw off the attempted yoking of Spain, look at the Pericles, throwing off the attempted yoking of Sparta. Here’s a quote from Pericles:
Does that not soar? Compare that, to this:
Americans may recognise this as part of Lincoln’s Gettysburg address.
Unfortunately, many of the speeches of Pericles weren’t written down, and are lost, but his reputation remains as one of history’s finest orators. And I don’t want to get into Umberto Eco territory, but if there was a secret society, with masonic links, alive and well in Britain around 1650, which plotted an escape to the Colonies, and the eventual throwing off, of the King, they would have known their Pericles, from their Ovid. Speaking of which…
One of my other favorite classical writers, Ovid, was alive in the times of the early tyrant Sullas and Caesars, and the imperial takeovers of the late Roman Republic. Check this bit of Ovid:
Does that not sing? If that looks familiar, you may be unsurprised to learn that the early Shakespeare’s favorite book, was, drum roll please, Ovid’s Metamorphoses 🙂
And Shakespeare lived much closer to the age of the Founding Fathers than we did. And could he have had some influence on their oratory? I would guess so.
Plus it was a time for great thinkers all round. Scotsman Adam Smith, himself, published his Wealth of Nations in 1776, a significant year to some, which formed the economic basis for the American Dream! 🙂
And there was Gibbon, with his Decline and Fall, which reminded the world how not to rule a vast continent.
The whole age was filled with a mini-Renaissance of great thinkers, great writers, and great men of action. Bolstered by classical education, particularly of Greek, Latin, plus Shakespeare. It was a great time. And I would also imagine if any men of vision, ambition, and talent, had been around, they would have all been on a boat to the Colonies (along with Gwyneth Paltrow, in Shakespeare in Love 🙂
Just wish I’d been there. I hope I’m around when we throw off the shackles of the EU. I predict a great flowering of literature, ideas, and freedom then, as well, perhaps in a third great age of classical liberty. I shall certainly be brushing up my Ovid, just in case! 😎
Plus, and my American history is EXTREMELY woolly here, so please forgive me if I’m WAY out, but I would suspect that all of those wonderful American documents bear the stamp of one man, even if signed by many, and I would guess from here (probably needing to read a very good book on early American history), that that one man was Benjamin Franklin, in whose footsteps I’ve walked in various sites of England, where he visited English friends when he was the US Ambassador here; one of the greatest of all men, who managed to bamboozle the British into not snuffing out the American revolution, when they had the chance.
I don’t believe in fate, and I don’t believe in destiny. These, to me, are historicist sentiments, but I do believe in rare genius. Maybe Franklin DID get hit by lightning, rather than his conductors, and this sparked the three great founding documents of the US! 😎
I don’t know, and I can’t speculate further, but you’re right, this was a remarkable time. Thank God for it, for without America, we would all be lost, either to the Kaiser, or Hitler, or Uncle Joe Stalin’s descendants. We owe them everything.
Rgds,
AndyD
No one Franklin and the D of I. That’s Thomas Jefferson… misquoting John Locke of course. But property is integral to the pursuit of happiness.
No on Franklin and the D of I. That’s Thomas Jefferson… misquoting John Locke of course. But property is integral to the pursuit of happiness.
The tradition of burning the Pope in effigy still persists in Lewes in England – http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes
Burning was the punishment for heresy, and burning in effigy is clearly religous symbolism.
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”
-Benjamin Franklin
The banishment of the Tories that this Della person is so bothered by was, as Martha Stewart would say, a good thing. NC3 is quite right about that; traitors = bad.
A good little book to read this weekend is The Genius of George Washington by Edmund Morgan, all about GW’s understanding of power and how to use it. He’s the guy who made it all happen when you get right down to it. It’s a quick read, very insightful. Give a copy to all you anti-war libertarian friends.
Andy – Who would argue with the oratations you cited? My point, which I expressed clumsily, was, it wasn’t only the words, sublime as they were, but the notion behind them: all men are created equal and they have natural rights. No one had ever thought of that before (that we know of) in the history of the world. That thought married to the words they wrote is, to my mind, sublime – and it seems to have sprung from nowhere, yet they all accepted it immediately, as a correct reading of the human condition.
I’m aware that it didn’t originally apply to slaves, but it was those words that eventually got the slaves freed. And it was those words which got anti-discrimation laws onto the books. So even if there wasn’t a universal application at the time, it was those words and thoughts carried forward that eventually did give them a universal application.
Kelli,
Our disgust with the French goes back to the very day we signed the agreement ending our War for Independence, in Paris no less:
Isaacson’s most impressive chapter, a little tour de force of historical synthesis, focuses on Franklin’s role during the Paris peace negotiations that ended the War of Independence. Again, this is bloody and well-trampled ground, littered with the bodies of several generations of historians. Isaacson’s previous work as a student of American foreign policy and biographer of Henry Kissinger serves him well here. He somehow manages to sift his way through the diplomatic debris and recover Franklin’s exquisite sense of the competing objectives among the American, British and French delegations, all the while recognizing that John Adams and John Jay were correct to insist, against Franklin’s instincts, on a separate bargain with the British that left the French marooned and unrewarded. The most recent French-American diplomatic minuet, it would seem, has a long history.
We insisted on dealing directly with the British — we were at war with them, after all — and there’s no telling, except for more research :), what the French were after. My guess is that it left tensions between America and Britain unresolved and the French sought to profit.
There’s nothing Orwellian about our relationship with the French. We have different views of the world and always have. As for ingratitude, please inform your daughter that the French lanscape is littered with American bodies lost to liberate the French from the Germans — twice.
Liberty Belle,
Your comment by itself is answer enough on the question of slavery, but, just so there is no misunderstanding, Jefferson tried to use The Declaration as an attempt to end slavery and the Continental Congress removed that portion. I just learned this today myself.
Johnathon,
Feel free to use those words when Britain finally pulls her head out of her ass and realizes that joining the EU fully will be the death of her and her 1000 year history. It’s my sincere hope that when that day comes the United States will be ready, militarily if necessary, to support her withdrawal so she may resume her position as the axis of the Anglosphere. The world will be out of balance until that day.
Dear Russ,
Thanx very much for your very sentimental approach to US history. It’s absolutely refreshingly exquisite and… HILARIOUS.
1/ “I personally do believe it’s (THE USA) the greatest nation on earth. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, particularly those who don’t live here.”
How kind of you! Thank you very much.
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2/ ” (…) a nation (THE US ONE) whose principles I think are universal, but unfortunately are not universally shared”
Your touchy self-absorption & tacky self-satisfaction are the very beacons the mean-spirited rest of the world is wanting…
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3/ “Everything that they put on paper between 1776 and 1787 was motivated by the idea of preventing tyranny”
Including revisited Bushist nepotism?
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4/ “They (THE FOUNDING FATHERS?) wanted the president to be directly elected”.
Well that wasn’t exactly delivered >>> universal direct ballot is unknown in that paradise of democracy.
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5/ “Then they made the Supreme Court the arbiter of the whole thing”.
That was superbly delivered >>> see Bush appointment.
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6/ “And it’s been a resounding success despite some damn rough patches (SLAVERY, INDIAN EXTERMINATION, SMALL INDEPENDENT STATES CRUSHED BY YOU ETC…). Yet, no one copies us”
No one does, indeed!!!…
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7/ “That may seem like a self-absorbed gripe (…)”
That mayn’t. That IS indeed “a self-absorbed gripe”. A laughable one…
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8/ “I know Germany has some of the federalists tendencies that we do, but their governments which we had heavy influence over decided to copy other European models instead of ours”
Germany is so stupid. Instead of getting inspiration from her most noble, friendly & closest Unitedstatish friend, she crazily decided to be independent & get a life on her own.
Maybe a boycott wouldn’t be a bad thing to remind this Teutonic colony whom she’s got to bow down to.
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9/ “Even the Eastern Europeans who seem as if they thought highly of the U.S. copied systems of governments from Europe rather than the U.S.”
Puzzling, innit?
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10/ “Look at the European Union’s proposed constitution. It’s what? 400 pages long? They believe they have to answer every question from the get go”.
When your country was founded, it had just 100 years of pre-existence, no political relevance, not even 5 million inhabitants etc.
Current Europe (approaching 500 million inhab, 1rst world economical power, 3.000-yo history & poltical significance) just needn’t ape what happened in the US.
Can you make that out?
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11/ “The genuis (and some would say it’s downfall) of the U.S. Constitution is it’s ability to evolve with the society governed by it”
Like the ban on sodomy (!!!) that was just removed in 2003?????????,
Ha ha ha!
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12/ “I’m not a religious person, but I do sometime’s wonder what brought those group of men together in that place at that time and created something whose genius those men probably didn’t even realize. I genuinely thank whatever God there may or may not be that I live here.”
Chance, God, necessity…
That’s a more interesting -yet purely speculative- debate.
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Kodiak.
I’m not a religious person, but I do sometime’s wonder what brought those group of men together in that place at that time and created something whose genius those men probably didn’t even realize. I genuinely thank whatever God there may or may not be that I live here. I love America with all it’s wrinkles.
ANDY: your textual development was gently articulated. Thanx for that.
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Dear Mr Robert Prather,
1/ “Our disgust with the French goes back to the very day we signed the agreement ending our War for Independence(…)”
Good.
Why don’t you go back to the Hundred Years’ War too?
******
2/ “(…) that left the French marooned and unrewarded. The most recent French-American diplomatic minuet, it would seem, has a long history”
Very good.
I suggest you drop this boring, unvarying, overdecorticated stuff about out-of-date Fr & perhaps choose a far more interesting pattern for your oratory persuasiveness to thrive: deist USA (in God we trust) versus Islamic Fundamentalism (Allah Ouakbar)… This kind of issue conceals two major advantages: it’s burning topicality & the atheist French would be delighted to sit outside & watch the fight between two retarded Weltanschaungen…
******
3/ “There’s nothing Orwellian about our relationship with the French. We have different views of the world and always have”
Sagacious astuteness…
******
4/ “As for ingratitude, please inform your daughter that the French lanscape is littered with American bodies lost to liberate the French from the Germans — twice”
For aught I know, it’s not YOUR body that’s littering “the French landscape”. So please let the dead rest in peace & also bear in mind your country was at least as much interested in stopping victorious Soviet Union from grasping the Golden Goose as in liberating the French from the Germans… Please note that many northern French were buried in “the French landscape” as they got liberated by US air assaults on civilian Nazi-free targets.
Do you also complain about Hiroshima & Nagasaki people’s ingratitude as you liberated them from Hiro Hito in 1945?
Kodiak.
As an American, I would like to thank my British brothers and sisters for all their kind words on the this occasion of the 4th of July.
I live in Boston, and unlike MANY of my fellows, I choose not to mingle with the 800 thousand or so who mob the banks of the Charles River for the festivities therein.
I prefer to celebrate the 4th by strolling the Freedon Trail. A path that leads from the Boston Common to the Bunker Hill memorial.
A more meaningful, to me, at least, celebration, than all the hoopla alnong the Charles River.
Because, you see, so much of the colnial era is still extant here in Boston. One can actually stand on the spot of the Boston Massacre. One can touch the house that Paul Revere lived in. One can actually see one of the lamps that hung in the tower of the North Church on that evening of Revere’s (aborted) ride.
And if you know where to look, you can see the descreet plaques on the sides of buildings that, for example, indicate that, here, was Sam Adams’ Boston home, not all that far from the site of the Massacre.
And as always, on the 4th, I stop at the Old Granery burying ground. That’s where Sam Adams, and John Hancock and Paul Revere and the vitims of the Massacre and other patriots and leadersa and common people of the time are buried.
I always stop there to express my thanks for their sacrifice and their wisdom and their stubborn determination.
And again, thanks to you all for your words and good wishes! We’re still trying to get things right here and it’s often not an easy task.
If any of you ever happen to make it to Boston, look me up and we’ll take a stroll along the Freedon Trail. I’ll even buy you a beer, a Sam Adams beer, of course!
Kodiak,
Quite the attitude problem. I was merely pointing out a fact with regards to our historical animosity with the French. It has a long history.
The oratory you were fisking came from a NYT article.
The U.S. is now and always has been a secular state. The fact that we take pride in our country and believe deeply in her ideals, however imperfectly we carry them out, is a strength, not a weakness.
Your allegience is apparently limited to your own cynicism. What a pathetic existence you must have.
Kodiak, be in no doubt, as and when France embraces a more libetarian political culture – and there are good libertarians in France – we will be the first to point out the fact. France is a fine country with a liberal tradition of sorts sadly all too neglected in that country But while France continues to be led by moral pygmies like Chirac, expect brickbats to continue being fired from my keyboard.
Of course, if Sabine Herold rises to power, I’m emigrating to France.
Chris Tucker: I went to Boston several years ago to visit a long distance girlfriend and she made me walk the Freedom Trail!
Robert,
OK apologies if I overreacted too fast…
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OK for NYT signature.
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“The U.S. is now and always has been a secular state.”
>>> you must be better informed than I am; nevertheless some things overtly linked to God existence (God should be interested in US affairs…) are really more than EXOTIC to European eyes: Bush having his prayer at the White House, swearing on the bible, the name of God on greenbacks plus the incredible hystery about abstruse God worshipping that’s reigning everywhere in the US.
I swear on what is the dearest to me that such instances of superstition (at best) or cynism (at worst) have no tender in the part of the planet I’m living in.
******
“The fact that we take pride in our country and believe deeply in her ideals, however imperfectly we carry them out, is a strength, not a weakness”
It is indeed & there’s no problem with that. But just open your eyes and, above all, your ears: YOU ARE NOT ALONE ON THE PLANET.
******
“Your allegience is apparently limited to your own cynicism. What a pathetic existence you must have”
My existence is fine, for me at least. Thank you.
You nonetheless didn’t bother address some remarks, however bitter those may sound to you.
Furthermore, I you want me to totalise the huge amount of bullshits about Europe, the State, France & the French etc that’s been delicately posted here, I’d be glad to please you.
Please read your post again.
Jonathan,
Your mind is free like a bird, & that’s perfect.
You think Fr wants more libertarising. Why not indeed? But why a right-wing one? Or a left-wing one? What’s the point of addressing problems or choices with a point of view that’s already encapsulated in backdating theories? Why do you want people to try to improve their lives just by abiding to precepts formulated by thinkers dead 100 years ago?
Your disliking of Chirac is all right. Welcome! I too am not happy with this crook. You can send as many cybermissiles as you want: he deserves them all.
Well, as for Sabine, no comment. Time only will tell if “la valeur n’attend pas le nombre des années” (eg: “worth & age are 2 diffreent thing”) or this was just media circus. You wouldn’t expect me to opt for the former…
SPECIAL ADDRESS TO ADMIN
1/ Please forgive my 3rd posting in a row.
2/ I always suspected Frog tirades to be more likely labelled “personal insults” or “undecent abuse” as US or UK ones. Is your diligence at acting as a zealous righter of wrongs & intervene to rectify unwarranted remarks also depending upon issuer’s nationality?
ROBERT: if Mr Bush exercises his diplomatic talents as wisely as you gently said good-bye to me, then the concert of nations is surely shivering at the idea of being granted same sort of consideration…
[QUOTE]PS. Could we have the tea back from Boston, please?
PPS. Could we borrow this when it comes time for Britain to leave the EU, please?[/QUOTE]
Of course you may borrow it. We got the sentiment from you, after all. Sorry about the tea, though.
Wow, people are still writing on this post. I guess that’s what happens when a troll appears.
Kodiak, perhaps Robert didn’t address some of your remarks because there does not appear to be any sort of argument you are putting forth. I’m unable to make heads or tails of what it is you are trying to say other than “Bush, America, & Britain all suck.” Seriously, do you have a point?
OK, I think I see one point and that is that America is a religious dictatorship. I apologize that my president occasionally prays, as has every president in memory. Jimmy Carter, whose quite big in Europe I hear, is easily as religious as Mr. Bush, even though Carter’s divine inspiration led him to decidely different conclusions.
You simply have no idea what a tyranny is. You live in a place that’s much closer to a tyranny than anything on this side of the Atlantic, I assure you. In France, someone gets put on a CRIMINAL trial for speaking ill of Islam as a religion. In the U.S. people can make jokes about the Pope in primetime T.V. without any cops showing up. I know this is difficult for your bitter little mind to understand, but our freedom of religion has led to a very religious population. It happened through individuals making individual choices.
In the heart of the deep south of the U.S. where Christianity would probably be considered a plague in your eyes, there lives one of the largest homosexual communities in the country. And yet, no one gets hurt, no one’s livelihood is taken away and everyone can speak freely. You have gay pride parades that pass by churches and somehow the cops aren’t called out. Perhaps if you visited here instead of reading the latest conspiracy theory published in the French press, you’d understand this. Yes, yes that sodomy law thing is rediculous, though it’s really never enforced. When Europe starts to grasp freedom of speech, religion and respect for property rights, then I’ll consider us even. Fair enough?
Just because one of our Hollywood stars say people can’t speak freely in America doesn’t mean it’s true. After all they are usually sharing their idiocy on Good Morning America and it’s 10 million viewers. Tyranny that is not.
I apologize if I got a little sentimental in my comments above, but my point, which I didn’t make very well is this. Other countries don’t copy America’s system because at it’s core is a spirit of limiting government power and protecting individual rights from the mob mentality that occasionally overcomes any society. People like you Kodiak and people like the bureaucrats at the EU understand what the American system means and that they wouldn’t like such a thing. After all they are trying everything to create a government that’s the polar opposite of the U.S. and many of it’s citizens are going to be shocked when they realize that they signed on to an Orwellian nightmare. THAT is what I found sad in my sentimental remarks that so offended you.
Dear Russ,
Yes, apart from “Bush, America, & Britain all suck” I’ve got a point: US egotism (autism, should I say?) is second to none. From tiny facts from everyday life up to more prominent political attitudes, the same pattern comes back again & again: “We are bright & you should ape us instead of being what your are”. That’s trollish too, isn’t it? This selfcenteredness so profoundly ingrained that you are cumulating resounding fiascos every year (the Bush disaster in Iraq being just the latest one).
The US may not be a dictatorship yet (although the lately Caesarean shape of your nepotist régime is not really promising), it is religious. The problem is not that Bush is praying; it’s his praying at the White House with due brainwashing media attendance & leniency. I’m not saying that Carter’s devoutness is any better than Bush’s religious bric-à-brac.
I have an idea of what tyranny is. I just have to think about some extraordinary US achivements I dare not mention (I could be burnt on a KKK pal…).
So you think speaking or disagreeing with Islam is now a criminal offense in France? Why not come over here & see by yourself how many people are jailed out of religious motives: zero. In Fr people also make sick jokes about the Pope, Allah, the Dalaï-Lama & any other conventional forms of religion & faith. You are very far from having the monopoly of sarcasm & irreverence…
Well be religious if you want, but don’t turn our planet in religious hysterical bigotry please.
Don’t worry: we’ve got plenty of gays over here too. They are not deported to camps in Siberia. They can perform sodomy or whatever funny position they want: it’s not only totally legal, it’s also their own business & no one else’s. We’ve got even a civil contract called PACS that enables same-sex couples to get almost full rights as straights do.
Please stop your patronising stance about Europe being a bunch of mortified idiots led by bloody dictators >>> that’s ridiculous.
Sorry: I don’t need no Hollywood trash to tell me what I ought to think about the ban on sodomy & other peculiar oddities that your eccentric legal system is flooded with.
And please stop that tiresome reference to Orwell…
“After all they (KODIAK & THE BUREAUCRATS) are trying everything to create a government that’s the polar opposite of the U.S. (…)”
>>> please refer to introduction: US egotism.
I’m not offended by your sentimentality. Just amused.
A lot of Brits came to the 4th of July party here in Taiwan. Americans outnumbered Canadians on Canada Day, too. Barbecue and beer – do you really have an excuse NOT to come?
p.s. Della, 4th of July was a Friday. So you could have celebrated at night, after work, like I did.
About Guy Fawkes day, do they sell pre-made effigies at Tesco? (I’m asking because if it was an American holiday, you could get ’em at Wal-Mart.)