It is often said that free speech does not extend to shouting “fire” in a crowded theatre. Likewise, actually incitement to violence within the context of civil society is not a matter of free speech at all, but is rather a matter pertaining to violence. In a genuinely free and reasonable society, a category in which I would not include Britain, to betray one’s ignorance by loudly declaring that “All Pakis and Niggers smell bad and should go back where they came from”, should be regarded as legitimate free speech (and of course the answer should be “What? You want me to go back to Croydon?”). Likewise any rather more aggressive replies questioning the racist’s intellect, honour and rationality should be likewise be regarded as legitimate free speech.
However to call for the murder of members of those ethnic groups is quite a different matter. And so when the likes of Al Muhajiroun, the much publicised Islamic organisation active in Britain, are found to be again and again to be encouraging the straightforward murder of civilians in various parts of the world, the point of tolerance should long have been passed. Omar Bakri Mohammed, the self-styled “emir” of Al Muhajiroun publically praised suicide bomber Asif Mohammed Hanif and would-be suicide bomber Omar Khan Sharif, both UK passport holders who were posing as ‘peace activists’:
These two brothers have drawn a divine road map, one which is drawn in blood. We pray to God to accept one brother as a martyr. I am very proud of the fact that the Muslims grow closer everyday, that the Muslim land is one land and there is no more nationalism or Arabism.”
As David Carr previously mentioned, that these lunatics came from Britain’s Muslim community is not an insignificant detail. That Al Muhajiroun is not setting bombs off here in London should not disguise the fact that just as the people in the USA who gave money to pro-IRA fund raisers in the United States were guilty of financing the murder of innocent civilians, Al Muhajiroun is responsible for the slaughter of civilians in Israel by giving aid and comfort to the people who are physically doing the murders.
Just as the Irish Republican terrorists who far from killing civilians as ‘collateral’ damage to an attack on a military target, actually targeted civilians for mass murder, the Islamic terrorists supported by Al Muhajiroun’s rhetoric, such as Hamas, Hezbollah and their ilk, actually target pizza parlours and nightclubs, rather than the Israeli army or state.
Of course, some will claim that as these acts happen outside Britain, there is no grounds for doing anything. What I wonder would they think of Al Muhajiroun’s British-born lawyer Anjem Choudary’s remarks quoted in today’s Daily Express (print edition) in which he encourages Muslims from overseas to come to Britain and attack targets here? Given that these ‘religious men’ have signally failed to criticise the intentional slaughter of civilians in Israel, I rather doubt any ‘martyrs’ heeding this call will be going after a well protected British military target… more likely we can expect a suicide bomb attack on Oxford Street when it is crowded with people shopping.
I would urge members of the Muslim community in Britain who regard these people as lunatics that do them a great disservice to move heaven and earth to disassociate themselves with these people. That the British government tolerates a group such as Al Muhajiroun in our midst is a measure of the decadence at the core of the state.
During the Salman Rushdie fatwa it became obvious that western countries were not prepared to enforce our laws against incitement to murder. This failure has not been lost on the fanatics, who feel quite free to chant Death to America and Kill Jews on our streets. Jihadi videos are openly sold and Web sites advocating terrorism operate openly, too.
It seems clear the hate speech laws are only weapons to be used to enforce politically correct speech. They have no intention of enforcing them against real hate and real incitement to murder.
I would think, that there must be plenty of competent individuals from the SAS or SBS community, that could handle these miscreants in a suitable discreet manner.
I have long advocated the covert elimination of these sorts of elements. Rights are great for the majority of the populace.
But when you have obviously evil people, intent on pursuing their agenda, then society should take solid action.
Or, more simply stated; round them up and kill them!
Cmdr.
Perry de Havilland writes:
“That the British government tolerates a group such as Al Muhajiroun in our midst is a measure of the decadence at the core of the state.”
Having spent (by complete accident let me stress) an hour in the company of a relatively senior Labour politician yesterday, I think I can now more clearly understand why this may be. Not once did this oily, meretricious toad utter a single sentence without first running it through a set of “how will this play?” filters which, I don’t doubt, had been implanted in his head several years ago by Johnathan Powell. Even when a reasonably funny joke which might have been in questionable taste was made about a part of his constituency, he began to smile, then visibly stopped himself.
This was more robot than man. More programmed political android than functioning human being. He was incapable of either spontaneity or, one could only conclude, honesty. Every idea had to be marched past an inspector of notions, the prime of which was ensuring that no one could regard anything he said as distinct from the party line or (even worse) likely to cause offence.
People who might take swift, decisive action against Anjem Choudary and his type (or Martin “babe” McGuinness, come to that) are not often successful in British politics – least of all in ‘New’ Labour.
Hello, I probably have set myself up as some kind of peacenik on this site and, what’s more, I’m kind of drunk. However, I’d like to say just what a mind-focusing scenario you have suggested in this post.
A bomb in Oxford Street would be amongst the most appalling events imaginable for tolerance and peace in the U.K. I don’t imagine that any sane debate could outlive such a disaster.
Given that a millenium of cool-headedness could be ended in a second, have you more specific ideas of how to counter such a threat, ideally without stirring up resentments as bad as in Ulster in the 70s?
Crosbie,
I think it is safe to say that we are all as worried as you are. Not only about the prospects of serious terrorist activity being executed on the streets of Britain but also where such a thing could lead us all.
I think Perry’s plea to the majority of reasonable, decent Muslim people to renounce the fanatics is the kind of ‘specific idea how to counter such a threat’ that you refer to above.
Thanks for the post perry. I had no idea about the extremists in the Muslim community, or should I say how extreme, when I heard on British radio (I listen to a British classical station on the web) on 9/11/02 mention a rally of extremists who stated their goal of turning England into an Islamic state.
Then I watched a show on public television called Armageddon which highlighted the extremism in a London neighborhood. One man was Pakistani, but was raised in Britain and has never been to Pakistan or anywhere in the middle-East, yet he wants to obliterate England and the West’s it’s “decadent” ways. That can only be achieved through violent revolution, he said. It just blew me away (no pun intended) that someone who spent his life in Britain, has never suffered (which is the excuse a lot of people use for terrorism, they hurt, so they hurt back the only way they know how…), went to University, became a solicitor, but then found Allah.
I recently read that Britain is taking similar measures as the US’s patriot acts in response.
I don’t really know what the answer is other than deporting and locking up those who want to see the West eliminated or call for the deaths of Tony Blair or whoever. It should not be tolerated. Period.
There are many groups that promote terrorist acts in the US. Probably everyone has heard of the KKK, but there are plenty of others with all sorts of beliefs. Even without getting into Consitutional issues, such leaving such groups alone make sense.
The FBI loves groups like that–they’re all heavily infiltrated, so the government knows exactly who’s in them. Nutcases who suddenly decide they want to kill people with different beliefs are drawn to these high-profile groups where they are watched, instead of going of and doing something on their own.
Presumably whatever agency is equivalent to the FBI does the same thing over there.
Ken: far be it for me to think the state should crack down on dissent just because it is moronic, stupid or ignorant, but with all due respect, you might think rather differently about the KKK if you were a black man living in Alabama… and you might think rather differently about Al Muhajiroun if you lived in Israel.
To hell with ‘constitutional issues’, if some group is actively calling for ethnic mass murder, and that group is no longer just a tiny collection of unnoticed barking moonbats but have become highly publicised barking moonbats who have credibility in certain sectors of your society and gets many column inches of free publicity in the press AND seem to have links to people who do a whole hell of a lot more than just talk about killing the infidel (i.e. you and me)…then the time for pussy footing around and just keeping an eye on them is looooong past.
And yes, I think the same thing about Sinn Fein.
It’s realpolitik as usual. “Let the wogs rant and attack foreigners, and we’re alright jack. They won’t crap where they eat.”
It’s realpolitik as usual. “Let the wogs rant and attack foreigners, and we’re alright jack. They won’t crap where they eat.”
Perry, I think you missed the point of my comment. I was simply pointing out that the FBI (which couldn’t care less about Constitutional issues) has some very good reasons why they don’t try to wipe out such groups, and suggesting that your equivalent organization may be allowing Al Muhajiroun to exist for the same reasons.
As someone whom plenty of people on the authoritarian left and right would regard as “obviously evil”, I’m a bit worried by Cdr. Fleet’s comment. I’m sure he’ll make sure to check my biometric identity card before he exterminates me.
As someone whom plenty of people on the authoritarian left and right would regard as “obviously evil”, I’m a bit worried by Cdr. Fleet’s comment. I’m sure he’ll make sure to check my biometric identity card before he exterminates me.
Catherine writes:
“Thanks for the post perry. I had no idea about the extremists in the Muslim community, or should I say how extreme, when I heard on British radio (I listen to a British classical station on the web) on 9/11/02 mention a rally of extremists who stated their goal of turning England into an Islamic state.”
It’s a far more widely held point of view here than the Left-liberal establishment will admit. There are quite regular street demonstrations demanding Sharia law and the establishment of a Muslim state and it doesn’t take much scratching of the Muslim surface in the UK to find people with opinions such as those you’ve quoted – and as you say, even among people born and raised here.
What I find so revealing is the difference between people whose roots are in India and those whose are in Pakistan. Yes, it is misleading to judge on a wholesale basis but, in my experience, there is often a very significant difference in attitude. That difference, of course, is due to Islam.
Ken: Ah. Yes, I did misunderstand. Gotcha now.
And so we find ourselves here carefully pointing out trees, while we’re blind to the forest.
Look, II Peter 2:1-5 warns us about Christians introducing the ‘damnable heresy’ of ‘denying our Lord Who redeems us’ has returned. All around us today Christian priests and ministers have, since January 1845, been ‘piously awaiting Your Coming, Lord Christ’ which is simply another way of saying, “We deny He HAS come.”
It wouldn’t matter if it were ‘only’ a religious matter but by turning people TOWARD Jesus in Jesus’ name they turn people AWAY from Christ, in His New Name (Rev 2:17, 3:12) By clinging to Jesusism the clergy wield a tiny, stunted, withered bit of ‘power’, whereas they USED TO be the only ones -along with the kingly caste- to have the power of reading, writing and ciphering.
Same with the Muslims of Britain, America, Arabia, Iran… Muslims have been told that the Promised One didn’t come in 1260 (1844) so just listen to us mullahs… WE’ll preach on behalf of God, you don’t need the Holy One Who came May 23rd, 1844… you just listen to what WE say, and WE say you should KILL Jews and Americans and faggots and whores and…. and…
And WE, the people of the world, suffer daily because our ‘clergy’ refuse to recognize Him Who arose May 23rd, 1844. Thus implying that when Jesus connected The Coming to 3 different processes ((1/the spreading of the Gospel to every nation; 2/the time of Gentile control of the Holy Land ending; 3/the 2,300-year prophecy of Daniel)) and those three CAME TO PASS in 1844, well, Jesus didn’t understand as well as WE CLERGY understand… No, we’re NOT like rabbis, who after 2000 years are STILL waiting for Jesus, we KNOW Christ could not have come in 1844, with a body that all eyes could see, like Jesus, and a voice that every ear could hear, like Jesus, so just listen to us clergy, we’ll speak FOR Jesus…
Christ 3, Christian clergy 0…
THAT’s the real Eye Opener!
By turning away from the Messenger of God for THIS Day, we imply that the previous Messengers are just, somehow, mistaken… or WE’re mistaken even though we can SEE for ourselves that this day is NOT Jesus’ day… again implying that Jesus didn’t know the meaning of ‘in that day’ and ‘in this day’ when He differentiated His day (agrarian, oral-tradition, priest/king-controlled day) from THIS day: (widespread education, billions who can read, kings and clerics cast down and discredited, lasers, stealth bombers, scanning electron microscopes…)
And we get what we deserve, letting blind ‘clergy’ lead us toward… division, hatred, racism, classism, sexism, paedophilia, churchianity…
What an Eye Opener…