We are developing the social individualist meta-context for the future. From the very serious to the extremely frivolous... lets see what is on the mind of the Samizdata people.
Samizdata, derived from Samizdat /n. - a system of clandestine publication of banned literature in the USSR [Russ.,= self-publishing house]
|
Pollysaurus Rex A hilarious outburst of flat-earth rhetoric from self-fisking socialist dinosaur Polly Toynbee:
Bang the drum for social democratic values. Give up pandering to the language of Thatcherism, of markets, individualism, consumerism. Stop trying to do good by stealth, stop running against public services. Spell out what good the state does and how much more it can do. The NHS is the most efficient health system in the world: now it is well financed, it can be the best. Education is already sweeping up the OECD tables: improving at this rate, we shall reach top ratings. Tell it like it is: only the state can buy the things that make people happiest. Eighties selfishness turned out to be self-defeating. Don’t blur the social democratic message, brand it on the national soul.
I invite you to read the rest of the article. Believe it or not, it gets even funnier.
[My thanks to reader Ian Brunton for the link.]
|
Who Are We? The Samizdata people are a bunch of sinister and heavily armed globalist illuminati who seek to infect the entire world with the values of personal liberty and several property. Amongst our many crimes is a sense of humour and the intermittent use of British spelling.
We are also a varied group made up of social individualists, classical liberals, whigs, libertarians, extropians, futurists, ‘Porcupines’, Karl Popper fetishists, recovering neo-conservatives, crazed Ayn Rand worshipers, over-caffeinated Virginia Postrel devotees, witty Frédéric Bastiat wannabes, cypherpunks, minarchists, kritarchists and wild-eyed anarcho-capitalists from Britain, North America, Australia and Europe.
|
How I wish Auberon Waugh were still alive to give us his take on this Toynbee work in “Way of the World”. Polly, I recall, couldn’t wait until Bron was underground before savaging him. He would have had a wonderful time with this “manifesto”.
One wonders what the word “efficient” means in her language, and how it is determined.
I wonder if The Onion hijacked the domain guardian.co.uk. This could have only appeared in The Onion, right? Please tell me this was satire and in the Onion….please.
I think her comment “brand it on the national soul” pretty much captures the neo-slavery that she is espousing.
I’m sorry this article is not self-Fisking. It is in fact a rather well-written re-statement of social democratic ambitions and is likely to give succour to our ideological enemies and prove persuasive to the neutrals.
Poking fun at it is not going to help.
This is good propaganda. It deserves a proper, thorough-going, point by point Fisking.
It is not something I would call funny, more like frightening. Only the state can make the individual happy? I thought the U.S. left was loony, but that is just way over the top.
“… only the state can buy the things that make the people happiest.”
Where do the Pollyannas of socialism think this ‘state’ money comes from? Thin air? Money trees? Dropped off in little buckets from Mars? If the state uses our taxes to buy what we all wanted to buy in the first place, why not just cut out the middleman? I’m paraphrasing, but Gurchuran Das in India Unbound basically says that those seem the most interested in redistributing wealth seem the least interested in the actual creation of wealth (how it happens, why it happens, what allows it to happen).
A chicken in every garage! A Yugo in every pot!
“The most equal, classless and cohesive societies” – she must mean the States.
Ladies and Gentlemen, stupidity has no limits.
I will address two points from this article.
He says, “Education is already sweeping up the OECD tables: improving at this rate, we shall reach top ratings.”
Is this true? I recently read an article in the April 19-25th 2003 issue of the economist on page 47 that says that “Maths and science have gone into a dangerous decline in Britain”. Worst of all it says that the standards for A-level exams in math as well as other subjects have been lowered. I hate to hear of a decline in publicly funded education in Britain that is similiar to that in the US. (Although it is predictable that a socialist system will go that way.) The problems here led us to homeschool our youngest son.
He says that “Crime is down”. Is that true? I had heard the opposite, especially for violent crime. Even if true, he says “Crime is down…Yet the prisons overflow”. How can he not see the connection between a lower crime rate and more criminals in prison?! We have, unfortunately, plenty of evidence in the US that letting violent criminals go free, even with support programs, does not reduce crime.
Patrick,
As far as I can see it is summation of the things Guardian editorials are calling for week-in week-out.
Good propoganda or merely restatement of extant stupidities?
David
Of course an article can both be good propaganda and full of extant stupidities. In fact, the two often seem to go together.
MLD picked out my favourite bit, but David’s right: it would be invidious to single anything out for special praise.
Whatever she was taking, it certainly kicked in by the time she got around to building palatial children’s centres.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan/A stately pleasure-dome decree…
It is hard to know where to begin.
“only the state can buy the things that make the people the happiest”
I’m quite sure that I have much more in common with a jellyfish than with a person seriously making this statement.
I’m happiest with my friends, my family, after suceeding in some endeavor against odds, after creating something to be proud of, doing something no one else can do, beating my previous personal best, helping people. These are the things that give me the internal glow that makes life worthwhile. Personal happiness comes from a sense of self worth and community. Humm-looking for State input here but having some difficulty.
The State provides regimentation, rules, rulers, security for the timid, and just enough food and shelter to keep you alive. The State defines your existence on their terms and to their benefit. You have no more value that the next ant.
I’m trying hard to differentiate between a State defined and supported existence and prison.
“So create a social programme, the missing piece in the universal welfare state…”
God, she says it like it’s a good thing…
Here in the states, “Welfare State” is a very dirty word, a destiny to be avoided at all costs.
I’ve just written to Polly asking as politely as I could what she means by “only the state can buy the things that make people happiest”. I hope to hear back.
I know the Toynbeast looks like she has her hair done by the council and gets her clothes from Oxfam, but does she really?
Surely her rank hypocrisy can be exposed by a simple deconstruction of her own spending habbits?
Fortunately no-one takes Toynbee seriously, otherwise she’d be dangerous rather than just mad.
The whole article was a neat summation of all the things I would least like to see occur in the UK.
The NHS is the most efficient health system in the world: now it is well financed, it can be the best.
I will be having an operation at the end of this month, as it was postponed from the date originally set, which was last week. How long have I been waiting for this operation? About one year. If I ever met Polly Toynbee, I intend to bleed on her to show her how wonderful her lovely theft funded Soviet style NHS is.
Liberal elites don’t understand why people in “Red States” in the U.S. (especially G.I.s) stand up when the admittedly saccharine and formulaic country music anthem “Proud to be an American” is played publicly. They especially don’t get two lines in the refrain, “and I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free…” I’m thinking Ms. Toynbee would be equally befuddled.
That individualism thing is really really important to us in the ‘States. Perhaps respect for the individual and his freedom has something to do with our success as a nation, economically and politically. You know, the old enlightened self interest at work.
As for your operation Perry, it’s not too late. Flights to the U.S. are cheap. Present yourself at an emergency room at any U.S. hospital, say you are in great pain, and you’ll get the operation tout suite. If anybody asks you where to send the bill, just say your name is Mr. Polly Toynbee, and give ’em her address. If she’s so frigging keen to help out her fellow man, she shouldn’t mind picking up the tab for him. Right?
Sorry, should read “as for your operation David.”
You might as well go in to get one too tho, Perry. After all, it will prove the counter-intuitive point that is bankrupting U.S. HMOs — as the cost to the consumer approaches nothing, demand approaches infinity. I think humans call this “hoarding” but economists may have another name for it.
“That individualism thing is really really important to us in the ‘States. Perhaps respect for the individual and his freedom has something to do with our success as a nation, economically and politically. You know, the old enlightened self interest at work.”
Here here…
You’re bound to get some funny and dirty looks if you speak of individualism as an “evil” here in the U.S.
I noted one of her points:
“The most equal, classless and cohesive societies with the best chances for all children are those where incomes are most equal, such as Scandinavia or the Netherlands. ”
I suggest she pay a visit to: http://www.expatica.com/
She should go to the Netherlands section and under that to the discussion boards. The expats (mainly from the UK, actually) can tell her all about the “wonderful” experiences they’ve had there.
Once she’s read a few of the threads, she may not view the Netherlands as such a shining example of the joys of the ‘classless society’.
Actually, if she were to take the complaints of the UK’s expats to heart, she could learn what to avoid as she helps to build ‘the great society’ in the UK.
Wow. That is simply unreal.
Well, as for the NHS, although I have been in the UK for a year, I still pay premiums on Australian hospital insurance. (That is, insurance that doesn’t cover day to day healthcare, but does pay for an operation in an Australian private hospital if I need to have one for any reason). If I do have a serious medical situation of any kind, I will fly back to Australia and be treated there.
The scary thing about this article is that after shaking my head repeatedly I get to
>8 Reform the Lords. Choose from myriad electoral forms, weak or strong, but make it democratic.
which I pretty much agree with, although the choice of electoral system need to be given proper consideration.
“Universal Blair creches would leave a memorial in human lives that would do more for opportunity than any other social programme – a perfect demonstration of social democracy and what the tax pound can buy.”
The people of Scotland have a perfect demonstration of what the tax pound can buy in the form of the (uncompleted) parliament building in Edinburgh, which has cost God knows how much more than originally planned.
“…compromise with the filthy French is better than being dragged along in the dust of White House war chariots.”
Yep, being the best of friends with the people who sold guns, munitions and other weapons to Iraq would be so much better than being friends with the guys who freed the Iraqis from tyranny.
“The right could be kept out indefinitely with proportional representation: the Conservatives would have no choice but to move towards the centre, as they mainly do in Europe.”
So no freedom of speech or expression unless it is left leaning then?
“Crime is down – a great success, 9% lower than 1997 and falling.”
My house was burgled at the weekend – the second time in two years, which, it has to be said, is not as bad as some people have experienced. Amongst other things, the children’s pocket money was taken from their moneyboxes. My nine year old daughter is currently scared to go to sleep at night in case the person who did it breaks into the house again. But of course Ms Toynbee, it’s their fault for growing up in a capitalist household isn’t it? A woman was robbed in Aberdeen yesterday when a man threatened to abduct the woman’s child if she didn’t hand over her purse. Yes Ms Toynbee, the crime rate is falling, the streets are safe!
“Yet the prisons overflow: “
Errr.. how about releasing some of the people who shouldn’t be there (e.g. Tony Martin)? Build more prisons?
Well as I said above, I wrote to Polly last night politely asking what she meant by “only the state can buy the things that make people happiest”. I also asked if happiness could be measured.
I got a crisp and articulate reply straight back today, which is actually rather impressive, I think.
I’m not saying her reply is invulnerable or has converted me or anything, but I think it deserves very serious attention if we’re to persuade anyone. I think we should start thinking – contempt and disrespect for opponents makes us lazy.
Here’s what Polly Toynbee wrote back to me today:
<< I only meant in terms of what money can buy. Family and love make people happiest. But after that, education, health and environment score exceptionally high on all researchers' hedonic scales. Much new research on this. Community makes people feel good.>>
Thoughtful reactions?
“The right could be kept out indefinitely with proportional representation: the Conservatives would have no choice but to move towards the centre, as they mainly do in Europe.”
At which point we on the right will have no options remaining but to use violence to express our discontent. If we are ever ‘indefinitely’ excluded from power then all bets are off and Polly Toynbee and her fellow travellers had better start looking under their cars with mirrors before getting into them. To be honest I look forward to that day.
Good old Pollyester Toynbeast, mad as ever…but at least she is consistent…. in being wrong about ..ummm.. everything.
“Family and love make people happiest. But after that, education, health and environment score exceptionally high on all researchers’ hedonic scales. Much new research on this. Community makes people feel good.”
I totally agree with the observation above. However I would disagree that “only the state” can buy these things (not sure about spending money on the environment though…).
“Community makes people feel good.”
Very true – but it takes the efforts of people to make communities work. The state can only help in limited ways (if at all).
“only the state can buy the things that make people the happiest”
She’s right of course – I can’t get helicopter gunships at the corner store.
Mark asked:
Thoughtful reactions?
I’d be inclined to refer to books such as Milton Friedman’s Free to Choose for counter arguments to her position.
Holy geez! Margaret Drabble let fly a stinky one in today’s Telegraph.
I realize the T’graph likes to wind its readership up from time to time, but really.
Oh, and ummm…the conceptual link to this thread, in case anyone’s wondering, is “really silly women in print.”
I love Polly Toynbee. I really do. I mean, she is a perfect example to the neutral or uninitiated as to what the British socialist and social democratic movement is like. At its core, is a passionate bossiness. Toynbee is a product of the upper middle class, who for all their protestations of democracy and egalitarianism, despise ordinary folk, especially those crass or vulgar enough to want tax cuts, video recorders, holidays in the Med and who take a dim view of the EU.
Her comments on the NHS, as Perry pointed out, are beyond satire. These nutters really believe in the idea that the NHS is the best in the world. But they never can answer the question – if the NHS is so marvellous, why has no other G7 nation adopted this Soviet model of healthcare? Not even Sweden, for crissakes.
As for her remarks on education performance zooming up the OECD table, that is hilarious. Has she been in a school lately? What does she make of the ongoing saga of grade inflation?
And you can bet that she was privately educated. These nanny leftists invariably are.
“But after that, education, health and environment score exceptionally high on all researchers’ hedonic scales.”
Hate to break it to Polly, but education is free to anyone with an open mind. Although access to libraries and the internet help. Even formal education can be paid for privately, and nearly everyone who has a choice opts for non-state education when they can.
Similarly, most of what contributes to health is done day to day by individuals – you know, diet, exercise, stress management, etc. Even health CARE can be paid for out of pocket. Still no necessity for the state, Polly.
Finally, the environment. Setting aside the fact that the degree of state control of the economy is usually positively correlated with environmental damage, not environmental protection, what really drives environmental quality is the overall wealth of a society. Here again, past a certain minimum the state is more a hindrance than a help.
Nice try. No stogie.
mark,
There was a time when socialists were convinced that only the state could manufacture consumer goods such as cars and washing machines. It was called ‘social production’.
Now we all know better but socialists still insist that only the state can provide education and health care. It is as gross a lie as the ‘social production’ myth. Education and health care are nothing except commodities and the market will provide more and better versions of both than the state ever can.
>She’s right of course – I can’t get helicopter >gunships at the corner store.
Ah, but if there was no state and we were all responsible for our own defence, they might be.
The drugs bit was correct.
I just HAD to add something onto this merry bandwagon! 🙂
Poor old Polly. She must really hate Tony Blair, with his talk on foundation hospitals, public choice, private investment etc. Obviously, it’s all waffle and no trousers, but as “Old Labour” breaks off from the SDP wing of “New Labour”, let’s hope Polly and her gang help increase this socialist division, which has remained well-hidden since Neil Kinnock’s anti-Militant speech all those years ago.
As for the article, well, what can you say? Breathtaking. So why did the Soviet Union fail then? Must have been those naughty “wreckers”, as socialism would be perfect, otherwise. It will work one day, somewhere, honest; it will! It has to. It must. I am an Aardvark.
Re Margaret Drabble’s acute dyspepsia: generally speaking, the ratio of any given party’s hysterical invective is in inverse proportion to that party’s importance in any given event. Has been harridans (of both sexes) rail away at Rumsfeld and Bush, who shrug and continue to go their way, successfully. This clearly will not do.
“There is another America. Long live the other America, and may this one pass away soon.”
What Drabble means by the other America is the one which used to at least pretend to pay some heed to moral relativism; the sort that can make a comment like, “I now loathe the United States and what it has done to Iraq and the rest of the helpless world”, and actually mean it.
The more of this nonsense that I see, the more I become convinced that socialists share a collective deranged head-girl persona, as Johnathan Pearce mentioned above. They care more for ideas and theories than living, breathing humans who seem increasingly not to agree with those theories (which are, after all, for their own good), in really the most impudent way.
“State is the name of the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it tells lies too; and this lie craws out of its mouth: ‘I, the state, am the people.’ That is a lie!” – Nietzche
S. Weasel writes:
“I realize the T’graph likes to wind its readership up from time to time, but really.”
Drabble’s little piece of sixth form invective really was in a class of its own. Try re-reading it, substituting the word ‘Pakistan’ for ‘America’…
If she ever grows up (unlikely at her advanced age) she will come to dread being reminded of this hysterical outburst.
That said, she is doing little more than typing-up the fashionable dinner table rhetoric from darkest Islington.
And Nancy has quite the right word, too: “impudent”. Wonderful!
Try re-reading it, substituting the word ‘Pakistan’ for ‘America’…
That would be an actual crime these days, wouldn’t it?
mark — a thought on how to respond to Polly — to quote TomD: “I’m happiest with my friends, my family, after suceeding in some endeavor against odds, after creating something to be proud of, doing something no one else can do, beating my previous personal best, helping people. These are the things that give me the internal glow that makes life worthwhile. Personal happiness comes from a sense of self worth and community.”
Looks like she got the first two, but seriously skipped the rest. You might ask her how her vision of the state taking over for individual accomplishment/earning and person-to-person assistance can help anyone, seeing as how these things are 1) vastly less efficient and 2) no longer a subject of pride when taken over by the state. You might also ask her what makes her think the state is able to decide better for her what she needs and what her goals are than she herself can, because if she does manage to help install the welfare state, she herself will be subject to it.
One of the things that gives me the greatest joy in life is seeing a horse I rescued move on to a new home.
The reason I can afford to rescue abused or unwanted horses, other than working fulltime, is that I train show horses for two self-made wealthy individuals, who subsidize my rescue work.
The State has nothing to do with our little operation, unless you include the occasional horse brought in by the state police.
The scariest thing in the article: “Stand up to the rightwing press. Ridicule it and those who read it. Confront the enemy, expose it for the paper tiger it is. Refuse to be intimidated. Laugh at the Mail and deny the Sun and its owner any further media gains. Show who is the master now; bring in laws to limit media ownership concentration. ”
So rules about ownership will be put into place to punish opponents. This is the clear link between economic and political liberty. Economic laws will be used to control thought.
Show who is the master now.
Shudder.
Stand up to the rightwing press. Ridicule it and those who read it.
Confirmation of the left’s tactics – ridicule, rather than debate. Force vs. reason. Might vs. right.
Truly these people are The Enemy.
Polly would probably be the first to call those who support capitalism fascists when she herself is the best example of one. She and Hitler would have gotten along just fine in 1940.
You can’t fix stupid so don’t try. The dog chasing its tail is busy indeed.
However, I would be very very happy if the state bought my beer. Just a thought.
Concerning Mark’s request for thoughtful replies on the “happiness comes from community” thesis. The best one I know is to be found in Charles Murray’s book “What It Means To Be A Libertarian.” The chapter called “The Stuff of Life” very much agrees with Ms Toynbee in saying that mutual help within a community is a major source of satisfaction and meaning – it then describes how state inteference destroys the bonds of community.
Unfortunately the very name “Charles Murray” is like a red rag to a bull for the left. Polly Toynbee is indeed pretty good about answering e-mails; she answered one of mine too, and in such a way that made clear she had read what I said, but I doubt if she is really open to anything with that name on the masthead.
i am prince abbi i am looking for a job to do. well, i can do any job like hotel work an other. if you need me please contact thanks.