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Dead Plan Walking Britain has no future outside of the European Union. That’s what the federasts keep telling us. That is the specious lie they’ve been peddling for years now. I can only assume that these people manage to sleep at night by consuming a quantity of sedatives fit to bring down a horse.
We have touched upon this issue before, but it is so significant that it bears practically no end of reiteration. Put simply, the EU is dying:
2050, the working population of the USA will have increased by more than the entire present working population of Germany.
EU 15, in contrast, will have lost almost as much working population by 2050 as the entire present working population of Germany.
Remaining EU 15 nations are projected to suffer losses in working population ranging from the manageable (France, minus 8%) to the catastrophic (Spain, minus 35%, Italy, minus 41%).
Tell me, what future is there in marrying a corpse?
[My thanks to Emmanuel Goldstein for the link.]
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Your website is cute, but it wont make a difference to the EU, if you don’t like the EU, you can go live in Pakistan.
Tara gay lord
While I’d be delighted to dance at the EU’s funeral, I’m concerned at the notion of linking mere population growth with strength.
In the US, most of our growth is coming from immigration. And, yes, we are traditionally a nation of immigrants, but this lot is coming faster than we can assimilate them, and many are not exactly huddled masses yearning to be free. They’re economic migrants who don’t particularly like the US or ‘get’ our culture.
Recent polling (errr…which I don’t have to hand) indicates that people are concerned about this, and our politicians (from both parties) are not. Which tells us that the numbers of new immigrants are already sufficient to spook our ‘leaders’.
The US is more divided and polarized now than it has been since our Civil War and, frankly, I’m surprised we’re holding on to as much of our founding principles as we have.
I’d bet the farm that the EU will die (my only question is how ugly it will be when it happens). But I’m not too optimistic about what the next century will bring the US, either.
Britain has no socialist future, outside of the EU. So in the world-view terms of our left-wing commentariat, they’re actually right to say they can’t exist without it.
It is the mission of every Social Democrat government to make it impossible to replace themselves politically, once they’ve successfully acquired power.
The plan to get us locked into the EU is part of that plan. Once we’re locked in, even if we cloned the amazing Ronald Reagan with the astounding Margaret Thatcher, and got the clone made Prime Minister, Parliament will have as much significance as the town hall of Henley-On-Thames. We will be stuck in a Socialist Narnia, and it will always be Winter.
But not forever. After 25 years of increasing misery, the British People will rise up and throw off the federalist yoke, with help from our friends in America. We will re-gather our once-proud British armed forces, scattered and neutered across Europe, and fight against the German and French garrisons posted here for our “protection”.
Over five years, in which millions will die, Athenian Britain will finally throw off the Spartacist fascism of Euro-land.
That is the appalling future of Britain if we don’t get out of this dreadful Euro Constitution. I couldn’t give a toss about me, but I don’t want my son or daughter to die in this conflict. We MUST therefore stop Blair and his fascist gang, before it’s too late.
But just how the hell do we do it?
So ‘tara gay lord’ takes the Borg approach regarding opposition aimed at the EU… “Resistance is futile” he croaks at us.
Well that is what the collectivist euro-fedarists would love you to believe.
Wrong, dick head, resistance is most certainly not futile. Resist the EU politically if possible, and if not, well, if I were some people in Britain who were committing treason I would start getting used to the idea of looking under my car before getting into it each morning and say a little prayer every time I turn the ignition key. Let us hope it does not come to that but if it does, well, so be it. It worked for Sinn Fein after all.
While it is true S. Weasel that here in the states we seem to have immigrants who are resisting assimilation, the bigger threat is an outright official interference in our sovreignty by Mexico. And the leaders of the U.S. seemed inclined to ignore it. Already there are armed citizen vigilantes on the Mexican border because of Washington’s refusal to act on this threat. This could lead to outright civil war if Bush and the other elected dirtbags don’t get a grip. Because folks we are armed to the teeth and are not going to put up with any shit.
I to believe the E.U. is an exercise in futility. It is the only way France can be a world power and to do that France must run the E.U. And they fully expect to run the E.U. The thing that worries me is when it does collapse and anarchy ensues at the wave of immigration and refugees that will inundate North America, it will be a friggin’ hell.
What are you talking about with the mexican immigration thing? how are they messing with our “sovreignty”. As far as I am concerned, if poor people from other countries want to do jobs Americans hate, for dirt cheap wages, its fine with me.
Isn’t the UK’s population declining too? Couldn’t you reverse the argument then, & say (if you were French etc.) ‘kick the UK out now.. they’re dragging us down with their declining population”.
Population decline’s got sweet FA to do with dynamism, and usually seems to be a result of prosperity & expecting a good quality of life; not having to have 12 kids to keep you alive when you’re old.
D2D writes:
Hi D2D,
Can I book my place now? I need four slots, and a good supply of Frank Herbert novels. I can’t build railways, fix airplanes, or write concertos, but I was once a fast food professional! 😉
Rgds,
AndyD
PS: Just found this great site => Becoming a U.S. Citizen
Vincente Fox wants to extend Mexican citizenship to all Americans of Mexican descent. Think about that. At least thirty million Americans would automatically become Mexican citizens with voting rights in Mexico. This gives Mexico a pretty big constituency within the U.S., especially in the southwestern U.S. That is blatant interference in U.S. sovreignty not to mention Mexico’s. And this has nothing what so ever to do with illegal immigration and jobs. That would be tatamount to a political invasion.
A_t: Incorrect. The UK’s population is growing at a rate of 0.21% (2002)
Andy,
You may want to get here before the shit hits the fan. We can always use another aeronautical engineer/ burger flipper. I have no problem with legal immigration as long as people realize that they’re in the U.S. and adjust accordingly. Such as we roll big party joints, no pinners (unless it is very kind bud). And when you come, bring beer, preferably very cold beer.
I totally agree Andy. We must stop it. Let’s think how to.
When Britain does enter the E.U. there may an upswing of immigration to the U.S. then also.
Mexican Consulate officials constantly meddle in law enforcement affairs here in southern California. In fact, 2 went so far as to impersonate American cops to take “custody” of a Mexican national who was accused of driving a truck loaded with illegal immigrants (some of who died when the truck crashed). Come down to the border (Calif, NM, Az, Tx) sometime and see how bad the mess is.
I have a sincere question:
How will giving Mexican-Americans Mexican citizenship hurt the US? The concept of dual nationality isn’t exactly foreign to us, after all. (I’m Caribbean — I know so many people with dual citizenship in the UK and someplace else, for example, it’s not funny.) And I believe we (the US) also already allow dual citizenship with some countries already. These people of Mexican descent are already American citizens with voting rights — how they affect government now isn’t likely to change; they’ll still have the same principles and concerns as they always did. If they’re voting in a pro-Mexico (or anti, or whatever) bloc, similar to the Cuban community of Florida, they’re already doing it, they’re not likely to stop because of anything Fox says or does.
It seems a lot more likely to affect Mexico. Suddenly a bunch of Americans will have a right to a say in Mexican affairs. So isn’t it giving *America* more power over *Mexico* and not the other way round?
Andy Duncan asks:
“But just how the hell do we do it?”
I keep asking the same question to an empty, echoing silence. Given that the political dice are heavily loaded against us, but that a majority of the population clearly agrees, what are we supposed to do? Riot?
D2D wrote “as long as people realize that they’re in the U.S. and adjust accordingly. Such as we roll big party joints, no pinners”
dude.. you’ve clearly never smoked over here in EU… strictly big joints and that’s it. If you get a wave of UK/dutch/german immigraton, you’ll be laughing.
We *do* however mix it with tobacco, which many Americans seem to find pretty barbaric.
Rioting might well work, but better not damage anything or plan to or you’ll fit the definition of a terrorist and can be locked away for ever. Even burning or suggesting others might burn an Unnamed Union flag would probably come under that rubric. (However tempting it might sound.)
Straightforward political campaigning is worth considering. But (1) the relevant election may not be held till it is too late, and (2) one of the other things that has been happening while no-one’s been looking is the nationalisation of politics. The new (and tightening) rules are designed to make it really hard to get anywhere for new parties.
What I don’t get (pretty common here) is why the whole EU bit went beyond just a customs union/free trade zone. Why a common currency without a common economy? Why all this stuff about a rapid reaction force when the French can’t even get their ONE! aircraft carrier up to cruising speed without making the crew glow in the dark? Seems to me that the situation as it is now gives the UK as much of the advantages it is likely to get. Getting further enmeshed in Europe will just bring Eurocrats down on you, making you sell bananas by the kilo instead of the pound, making you have your Parma ham pre-sliced in Parma, ensuring that your cucumbers don’t bend too much (no Spinal Tap jokes, either — it probably violates some human rights provision) and God knows what outrage Brussells will devise.
As for giving up freedom of speech, habeas corpus, the protection against double jeopardy, and the presumption of innocence (doesn’t apply in the Napoleonic code), there would be riot and insurrection if it was tried in the USA.
I wish there was less abusive language on this site. Calling pro-Europeans “federasts” may sound clever down the pub or wherever, but if you have a case, you don’t need to resort to this sort of thing. The GOP website is full of it, but I presume they’re only intending to talk to the converted.
There was a similar thing in another piece, whre Roy Hattersley was described as “bleating”. No case, abuse plaintiff’s attorney…
Innocent Abroad writes:
“There was a similar thing in another piece, whre Roy Hattersley was described as “bleating”. No case, abuse plaintiff’s attorney…”
How much do you know about Roy Hattersley?
There is no reason not to call contemptible people by appropriate names. I think “federasts” just about captures the attitudes and ambitions of the EUniks – after all, they obviously conceive of the citizenry as overgrown children, and most of their political agenda consists of various ways to stick it to us without our consent.
….so you’re claiming you genuinely do equate those who’d like to see the EU expand with paedophiles?
whatever.
Is it possible that Russia may be interested in joining the EU at some point?
A_t –
If you can’t get a life, at least try to get a sense of humor. You come off like some kind of humorless liberal (and not the good old-fashoined kind of liberal, either).
UK on EU: We need to be in there, otherwise we will be left outside.
Trotsky: We need a world revolution, otherwise we will be left outside.
Both are quite similar.
Sweden: Weeeelllll…….yes aaand noo…maaybee….but it could be good….but also very very baaad…I don’t know whyy…but……weeellllll……
On the contrary here, the left are the ones that opposes the EU and EUro the most….
Oh, and Mitch, from the very foundation of what we today call the EU, this (United States of Europe) was one of the main goals. Has always been and will always be. Unfortunately, I do not have any sources in English on this, but we recently finished off this topic (EU) in school…
But Johan, what’s the point of trying to mash everything together? Spain is not Britain is not Sweden is not France is not Slovnia … The benefits of free movement of people, ideas, goods, services, and funds across European borders makes lots of sense. Why go further than you have to, having realized the benefits? If you say it is to prevent another European war, that is just overkill, so to speak. First, you don’t need two separate countries to have a war — just look at Yugoslavia, or any number of African civil wars. Second, you don’t need to unite with your neighbors to keep from having a war with them. The last time the US fought Canada was in 1815, and they weren’t even a country then. We went to war with Mexico in 1848, a fact they still resent (they forget we later forced the French to withdraw, ensuring the victory of Juarez).
Besides, the current draft of the EU constitution takes even more power away from its constituent states than we do here in our federal arrangement. Why surrender that degree of autonomy?
Mitch writes:
“Why surrender that degree of autonomy?”
It’s the central question, for sure. But the people you need to be asking it of are the political classes, because it is they who are pushing so relentlessly for it.
I think most of us on the anti-EU side of the debate have long since concluded that the only possible explanation is the oldest of them all – power.
These people believe they know what is the best for everybody else and that, if they could only grab more power and impose their nostrums, the world would be a better place.
No doubt Napoleon thought much the same.
you people mix it with tobacco?!!!!
Elizabeth –
Russia join the EU? Do you realize the antipathy Russians feel for anything European? Or any other country for that matter, but theres no need to worry there. I couldnt imagine a day where they would give up their cursed Rubles for Euros, or giving up any independence considering the amount of Xenophobic sentiment which runs rampant in the country. It is perhaps stronger than us in the Anglosphere, although they include us in their “West”, and have an interesting love-hate relationship with the Us.
And also, it is a mistake to underestimate Russia, like is often done. If you look at the history of the country you will notice a pattern, – and after a major event or downfall they always come up twice as powerful.
Just some thoughts.
CRL
Simply by granting American citizens Mexican citizenship because their ancestors immigrated from Mexico is a problem. Why would Vincente Fox do this? Most of the Americans, some families going back 5 or 6 generations, have little or no contact with Mexico why make them Mexican citizens? There must be something in it for Mexico. Most Americans of Mexican descent are new Americans and have strong ties and family in Mexico. Many hold high political office in the U.S. Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico would become a Mexican citizen. Thirty million Mexican citizens with ties to Mexico becomes a powerful bloc when items benefiting Mexico come to a vote in the U.S. or any of our southwestern states. Most Americans of Mexican descent are not going to move back to Mexico, but what they may do is move Mexico into the U.S. And that is why it is more of a U.S. problem than a Mexico problem.
Pretty much what’s going to happen to Britain when it joins the E.U. and the third world moves in because you no longer have control of your borders, France will.
That should read Of the Americans not Most of the Americans beginning the third sentence.
Damn I gotta proofread!
Gee. I didn’t realize until I read this thread that the US was virtually in a state of Civil War, with armed vigilantes patrolling the border. Guess I need to get interested in civic affairs.
What the EU needs to do is find countries with young populations (who are willing to work) to support all the old Europeans who are going to want to retire soon at highly inflated social insurance benefit-level.
Like all those Arabic nations where the young vastly outnumber the old.
Oh, wait… I see the problem. Never mind.
The forcing together and ruling of a population only works if a clear and powerful majority actually want it. In the case of the EU, the majority clearly don’t want it. The US would disintegrate if the majority simply didn’t want to be ultimately ruled from Washington. As it happens, they have a system whereby most people are happy with it.
The EU is forcing itself on a very large and varied unwilling population. At present, the laws they impose do not affect our day to day lives in a noticeable manner. However, there will come a time when citizens of the EU will want to do something, and Brussels will say no. This may be over tax, employment, economics, who knows what? But if Brussels starts to ignore what the population feel very strongly about, and interferes in areas which the population feel very strongly about, and no amount of peaceful demonstrations can penetrate Fortress Brussels, then the EU police force had better buy some books on anti-terrorism quick. I dread to think what an upset violent portion of the European population is capable of given their numbers, diversity, and geographical spread.
I’ve actually come to grips quite nicely with the increasing Mexicanization of the Southwestern US.
I’ve lived my entire life in what some refer to as Occupied Mexico (CA, AZ, NM, CO. Haven’t lived in NV or UT). I grew up white bread middle class, and have heard Spanish almost every day of my life, whether in Fresno, LA, Davis, Tucson, Boulder or Santa Fe.
Yes, we took it fair and square (President Polk was our only honest president, that’s ALL he really campaigned on: “I will engineer a war and take half of Mexico”, in thinly veiled code words).
And now we’ve build lots of nice things on all that land, so of course they want to live and work here.
And I love Norte cuisine (they eat totally different food down by Mexico City). And they have weird nuns on the money and stuff. 🙂
So I’m actually in favor of allowing more open freedom of movement between Mexico and the Southwest, but that would almost take some kind of weird sub-Federal residency area, unless you wanted to go whole hog with shared residency over all of NAFTA, EU style. Which I’d kinda like; I’m fond of parts of Mexico and Canada, and can’t easily live there either: it’s a two way street.
But that whole vigilante thing on the border is getting ugly from where I sit in Tucson. We need to either lighten up or crack down, but this in the middle shit is getting old. NAFTA-wide residency or a Berlin style wall, I say.
Wow, I got sucked off into a whole US/Mexico tangent…but it is kinda comparable to the EU question, but from a different angle in NA.
We in the US would gain demographically from tighter union with Mexico, while to Britain the EU is just a larger time bomb.
CAN the Blair govt. get away with it without even a vote of Parliament? Although as Guy pointed out on another thread, does even that make a difference with UK Party discipline?
All I am saying is be careful of creeping invasion. We have the best deal on earth as U.S. citizens, but there are some who come here who don’t wish to assimilate and want to share in our prosperity without sharing in our philosphy or national identity. Remember Mexico does not share our Bill of Rights. I would prefer that the U.S. maintain its sovreignty with the Bill of Rights than make Mexico or Canada happy. Sorry that’s just me.
Britain faces the same situation with the E.U. Is it worth giving up the Magna Carta and commom law as well as your national identity just to be part of a larger political entity? As I said in another thread I believe Britain could achieve the same goals without giving up her sovreignty or distinct personality within the Anglosphere.
Of course there’s no future for the UK outside of the EU. Island nations off large continents are quite unable to survive. Just look at Taiwan and Japan.
D2D that is nuts… I had not heard that. However, as somone who marries a latina one generation off the boat, Vincente Fox would not gain much. She is about as Mexican as I am French… which is just about zilch. I doubt that any huge block would emerge, people from Mexico are here because they like the difference between the US and Mexico, they would not want to make it similiar.
D2D does have a point Arjuna, assimilation varies widely. Just as there are Chinatowns in some parts of the US where you need not learn English your whole life, and can even bank in Chinese, you will find quite large blocks in the Southwest where Spanish is all you need.
If you WANT more than the barrio has to offer, yes, you must learn English and the wider culture. But you don’t need it to work in the back of a restaurant, most of which require bilingual Spanish/English speaking managers here.
And customer service in all industries, much more than in the past, wants bilingual reps. (Tucson is a major phone center, at least until the jobs all get siphoned to India…which IS happening).
But few Americans have even been to Mexico beyond the fairly retched border regions, and so don’t really have a good grasp of the culture. The class hierarchy there is fairly strick: the whiter the shade of skin and the better your English, the higher up the pyramid you are.
Which makes for a fairly weird scene when you’re the only blond person walking along in the second largest mall in North America (working on bank computers down there), with a translator and computer company minions fluttering around you.
Equal parts creepy deference and fear in peoples eyes: those Quetzaqatl (sp?) myths REALLY did a number on their collective psyche, and the Spanish merely convinced them that the whites were devils not angels.
ARjuna, you make good points in your arguments, but what do you say to the rise in groups like La Raza? A good portion of the reason, I suspect, why the US has such touchy ties with Mexico is because of the Polk Administration/Mexican War, which was to have settled the problem of the south border once and for all…because Santa Ana, in his return to Mexico, REALLY botched the diplomacy of that. In essence you might say, the arguments of who actually owns Texas and other previously Mexican lands is still going on…and there are leftist groups who are ready and waiting to whip the illegal immigrants into a frenzy about it.
I am all for better relations with Mexico, but judging by the history that Texas/US has shared with Mexico, the level of trust is not as high as it should be to allow for what Vincente Fox proposes. The duplicity of handling cases like illegal immigrants who come here, commit crimes, and then disappear into Chihuahua or Chiapas, without purpsuit by the Mexican government, has led to high levels of acrimony. There are plent of Americans that are thrown into jail in Mexico for no cause, yet we are to treat Mexican criminals as VIP guests whenever they perpetrate crimes here.
I realize this thread began as a discussion about EU property. England/UK has been around for at least 1000 years. Only rarely (and I dont know much of it anyway) has it EVER come close to surrendering its sovereignty the way Tony Blair and other politicos in Great Britain are salivating to do. England has been our blood brothers in this fight against the terrorists. For that I am deeply thankful and send out my best wishes for the people of Great Britain. Because of this, I am just as alarmed as I am sure many are, when British Parliament talks of handing over governance to a body of UNELECTED thugs who can’t wait to exact vengeance on an enemy they have spent almost as many centuries fighting against. Can it be they have finally found a way???
Don’t give up, Britainia! I am quite certain even our Founding Fathers would be horrified by what the EU wants Great Britain to do.
David,
You don’t even need to know English to vote in the U.S. How does one become a U.S. citizen without ever learning English; other than being born here to parents who don’t speak English? They do not become part of the wider American culture, because they prefer Mexican culture. The La Raza movement is no joke. They are actively working for the return of that part of the southwestern U.S. known as Aznar back to Mexico. This is definitely subversion if not outright sedition. And Fox’s government is supportive of this also. We had better wake up to this before it becomes an all out conflict.
Arjuna,
I did not say, “huge block.” I said a creeping invasion. Plus most Mexicans coming to the U.S. are not looking to embrace U.S. culture and ideals, or escape tryanny, they are coming for economic reasons. They want money. To believe otherwise is what’s nuts.
If you are in Britain look on the bright side with the new E. U. food origination and labelling guidlines you’ll have the market cornered on haggis.
Just some information for you : the UK is part of the EU…. You should not speak as if it was not.
Some other things :
– So an american federation of states is a good thing and a european one is not ?
Do you really think that all the american states have their economy moving together ? Do you really think that Montana, New York, and California and Kansas share all the same interests at the same time ? Do you really think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England share all the same interests at the same time ?
– So there is much more freedom in the UK than there is in the continental members of the EU ?
Rabid opposition to EU integration is as bad as foolish optimism. But I think that the fact that the US federated back then and the power of the US of A today is a powerful incentive for Europeans to try to do the same thing.
Well, I live in the northeast, so I honestly have no idea what is going down in the southwest. Here though, there is no question that Latino’s are embracing most of the Anglo ideals that we hold to. In fact whats really funny is the constant complaining from the Latino branch of the family about poor Hindi speakers invading the now affluent Latino areas (this is suburban NJ, NYC is still in the pits). Anyhoo My point is that most 2nd gen types want to be part of this.
However this is not to say I am not disturbed by these reports of what sounds like seperatist fever from the southwest. I bet if you scrathed the surface though, you would just find “free mumia” types, who would just be bitching about something else if it wasnt for this.
Eric writes:
“Rabid opposition to EU integration is as bad as foolish optimism. But I think that the fact that the US federated back then and the power of the US of A today is a powerful incentive for Europeans to try to do the same thing.”
The analogy between the formation of the USA and the proposed EU superstate is entirely spurious and I do wish people would stop wasting out time (and insulting our intelligence) with it.
Prior to the War of Independence, the states that formed the USA were colonies. No one was expected to surrender their sovereignty to form the USA – they were gaining sovereignty. That was what they were fighting for.
Only a country that believes it has no future, no ability to handle its own destiny and no willingness to do so, can welcome being subsumed into a foreign state. And that is precisely what the EU is.
I note, in passing, that your-mail address appears to be in France.
My mail address is in France yes…
And I am a Frenchman yes.
So what ?
You should ask to some Americans ( some texans come to mind ) what they think of their federal government, and more to the point if they think that the federal goverment of the US of A as too much powers…
I think some Americans say that the federal government limits their sovereignty, that it has too much powers, that it puts its nose where it should not… They say exactly what you are saying of the EU.
And without federal intervention in the US of A do you think that desegregation would have worked in the south ? And do you think that these in these southern states some people did not thought that their sovereignty was violated at the time ?
And do you think that Luxemburg’s place in the world is bigger than Montana’s because Luxemburg is a sovereign state ? Or that Thailand is much better off than California because Thailand is an independant country ?
My biggest problem with the EU at this time is that it does not try any harder to become more of a federal state. And if some “big power” like Great Britain ( Ireland’ GDP per head is bigger than Britain’s these days ) wants to keep its freedom, they just should opt out of any European federation, that’s all. Not that the question is on the table : what you see in the UK as rampant federalism as no chance to be implemented in the near future in the EU.
And without federal intervention in the US of A do you think that desegregation would have worked in the south ? And do you think that these in these southern states some people did not thought that their sovereignty was violated at the time ?
Ah, there we are. You can’t be permitted your continued sovereignty lest you do something naughty with it.
(And, for the record, the school busing riots were in Boston. They always get a pass on that one. I reckon people are just more comfortable sticking with the Dukes of Hazzard stereotype).
The main difference in the U.S. style of federalism and what the E.U. proposes is type of governance. In the U.S. its from the bottom up in the E.U. it will be from the top down. In the U.S. the belief is that our rights as a free people are granted to us by a higher power and should not be infringed upon by the state. In the E.U. your rights are granted to you by the state and are at the whim of the state. The U.S. Bill of Rights specifically limits the state. I see no limitation of the state in Europe, hell, Belgium has legal jurisdiction on every human being on the planet. And they think Americans are arrogant. Sheesh.
Arjuna: Assimilation will be much quicker in areas of the country, such as the northwest, where there isn’t the denisty of immigrants required to form ethnic/linguistic ghettos.
I can walk for miles in South Tucson and see very few signs in English.
D2D: what part of the southwest are you in? My ckickable email here is real, I’d be interested in comparing notes about things along different parts of the border via email.
Eric: I’m mostly concerned that my as yet unborn grandchildren will have to fight and die to remove Britain from the EU Superstate in 50 years. Which won’t be a cake walk, as it would be nuclear on all sides. Don’t believe me? What generally happens when the French and Germans end up on the same side of things?
And others here are right, to compare the American Union to the EU is disingenious at best.
I’m no booster of sovereignty for it’s own sake, but Britain will be giving up a LOT more than merely that if they join the Giscard constitution.
Eric writes: ‘My mail address is in France yes…
And I am a Frenchman yes.
So what ?’
I’m trying (hard) to be polite here, but my answer depends on what it is you are asking. For example, one might wonder whether, having been raped by Germany twice during the 20th Century, France’s motivation for being such a powerhouse in the EU is really more to do with a rape victim trying to formalise the relationship and make it respectable, than any more comprehensible motive.
Just what the *hell* do you think it is that you are offering us?
‘And without federal intervention in the US of A do you think that desegregation would have worked in the south ?.
Need I remind you that it was Gt. Britain, acting as a sovereign state, that set in place the abolition of slavery – using the might of the Royal Navy to enforce it? You might care to remind us of France’s contribution to this process, with particular regard to Haiti and other French colonies?
Do you seriously content that, without the EU, we have no morality?
Aside from some vague notion of drawing the covered wagons into a circle out of sheer terror of the forces without (itself an amusingly Wild West American analogy) I cannot think of one single reason why the United Kingdom should hand its governance over to a bunch of other states whose own governments range from the openly corrupt (France) to the guilt-ridden socialist incompetent (Germany) to the hopelessly confused (Italy), the terrified of paedophile scandals (Belgium), to the recently recovered from Fascism (Spain and Greece) or whatever else it is you think you have on offer that is such a fantastic deal.
Roll around the floor with the post-colonials we may well do, but in the end, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and several others are family. Families fight. Perhaps rather too often to save nations whose external ambitions might better be restrained until they can set their own houses in order.
“And if some “big power” like Great Britain ( Ireland’ GDP per head is bigger than Britain’s these days ) wants to keep its freedom, they just should opt out of any European federation, that’s all.”
Fourth largest economy in the world, mother of the Anglosphere, a robust common law and extensive trading relationships throughout Africa and Asia? Yes, I think I’ll take that option, thanks very much.
*Roll around the floor with the post-colonials we may well do, but in the end, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and several others are family. Families fight. Perhaps rather too often to save nations whose external ambitions might better be restrained until they can set their own houses in order.*
Oh man, you rock. Just thought I’d mention.
One thing that Mexican-Americans seem to be doing in disproportionate numbers is enlisting in the American armed forces. (They seem to have a particular liking for the Marines, for some reason). This seems to be a pretty definitive way of both integrating into wider society and showing commitment to the US.
Obviously this is only one aspect of integration, and others are more important, but to me this seems a good sign. People who do this have my admiration, and my thanks.
Eric writes: ‘My mail address is in France yes…
And I am a Frenchman yes.
So what ?’
Bonjour Monsieur Eric,
So what exactly do we in the UK need the French for?
I ask you again, what exactly is it, that we need YOU for? My answer is NOTHING. The single, possible exception to this, to which I’d agree if pressed, is that if we’re outside of the EU, eventually you and the Germans will threaten us with invasion.
But it’s not much of a tempter, is it. Join our gang or we’ll kick your head in! And besides, I should think a single SAS squadron, and the Irish Guards could probably take out the whole of the French and German combined armies at the moment, with perhaps the SBS and the Coldstream Guards for the Belgians, Dutch, Italians, Spanish and Danes.
No, sorry, perhaps Cpl. Gary Sproke, of the Royal Army Catering Corps, for the Belgians.
I can’t wait to leave the EU. We’ll be richer, you’ll be poorer; we’ll have cheaper food, you’ll have smaller food markets; we’ll have faster economic growth and less taxes, you’ll go down the corrupt dirigist pan, under a wall of pension fiascos, feather-bedding, stifling regulation, tax, and unemployment; we’ll have the English common law restored, and the Napoleonic state-directed sham removed; we’ll ski in the deep dependable slow of Colorado, rather than the wet slush of the Massif Central, and best of all, we can watch you get taken over by the Germans, until Sie alles Deutsch gesprechen.
There is a significant, and growing minority, in the UK, who want out of the EU altogether. This will eventually become the majority (in just a few years, I reckon). If we’re successfully dragged into your constitution and currency, by our traitorous Labour Party, this process of opposition will explode and most people here will want out of the EU, and will leave under the guise of whichever political party promises this, wormtongue treaty obligations, or no wormtongue treaty obligations.
The United States of America was a country formed, from the grassroots, by the willing, who opposed the top-down statist aristocracy of a stupid British government. Their constitution limits the rights of government, which is why it has been so successful.
The United States of Europe is a gambit, into which we are being foisted by an aristocratic statist top-down stupid British government. Their constitution will extend the rights of government, which is why it will be such a disaster.
America, at the time, was also populated by sensible English, Irish, Scots and Welsh folk, who despised the mainly German Aristocracy which ruled Britain.
Britain, at this time, is also populated by sensible English, Irish, Scots and Welsh folk, who despise the Germano/French aristocracy which rules Europe.
The EU is all going to go horribly wrong. I just hope we’re not involved, when it does all go BANG. And it IS going to go horribly wrong. Five million, six million, seven million unemployed in France, the same in Germany? When will you socialists realise your dream is a nightmare?
If you want people to want to join the full EU, you should make it so attractive we all wish to swim the channel to be there, not push the state to build great big concrete walls around it, with even bigger watchtowers to prevent escape.
This time you and the Germans can sort your own mess out.
Adieu,
AndyD
What would be the reaction in Britain if the U.S. offered to make Britain a member of NAFTA?
Would the typical Brit prefer that to the EU, if they were mutually exlcusive?
Long live the Anglosphere!
Mark asks:
“What would be the reaction in Britain if the U.S. offered to make Britain a member of NAFTA?”
It has been talked about, actually and I think the majority of the UK population would be firmly in favour, once the idea was properly explained. As it is, you can imagine the scorn heaped on the suggestion by the Guardianistas, BBC et al.
Free trade was what we *thought* we were getting when the traitor, Edward Heath sold Britain to Continental Europe.
Andy Duncan and G Cooper, you are heroes!
Mon cher Eric,
Malheursement, my email address is also in France, which I am making plans to get the hell out of (provided the trains and the air traffic controllers aren’t on strike the day I want to leave) as fast as possible.
Work shy? They will have to invent a new phrase for “bone idle”. I’ve never seen anything approaching the laziness of the dirisgiste dictatorship of France. The teachers were on strike again yesterday. Second time this month. There has also been a nationwide general strike this month. There are strikes planned for this week and next week, and this coming weekend is yet one more public holiday (three this month). And as it falls on a Thursday, they are allowed to take a “bridge” day to carry them into the weekend, when they can relax. They have enough public holidays and “bridge days” in France to build a viaduct, the lazy bastards.
The “constitution” – for want of a better word – is a mirror image of the French bureaucratic mindset. Nothing is too small for their attention. Nothing too insignificant for them to fidget around with and surround with rules and subclauses. And commentators who have noted that it is designed to stifle debate are correct. All you have to do in France is follow all 8 million rules about absolutely every aspect of human life, never take any initiative because it doesn’t pay, sit quietly until you reach retirement age without ever have taken a single decision during your entire working life, and get your pension. Just obey and you’ll be fine.
This goes against everything Britain stands for and we find it profoundly repulsive. We would rather mix with our own kind – other energetic, action-oriented, inventive, vigorous, brave (Eric, that is spelled B-R-A-V-E), optimistic, forwarding-looking, entrepreneurial (look it up; I realise the concept is not familiar to you), risk-taking people. That lets France out. You don’t qualify on a single count. Our natural place is in the vigorous, thriving Anglosphere. You can keep your Napoleonic Code. You can keep your Brussels dictatorship. We’ll be dancing on the EU’s grave in just a few years anyway. One more great continental failure. If your Monopoly euro lasts five years, I’ll be surprised. It’s a joke.
Tony Blair may think he can slither under the door with this one, but he can’t. The birthright of 59 million freeborn Britons is not in his gift. We are not his property to barter. 59 million people suing him for abusing their human rights might keep him busy for awhile. His ambition is to be the unelected (except by other dictators) president of this mess. Fine. Let him take out French citizenship and try his luck. He will not be missed.
Edward Heath was the first traitor, and I would love to see him hanged before he dies a natural death. Tony Blair is his equal in mendacity and insane ambition.
Everything in France is dated, old fashioned, backward. Hardly anyone has an email address. They don’t have home computers. France is so expensive it takes the breath away. A euro for one apple grown in France? I don’t think so, mon vieux! Almost everything is cheaper in Britain. And absolutely every single thing is cheaper in the US and Australia. This continent is over-priced and over-taxed. And for what? What the hell are people paying for? What are people getting in return? Beats the hell out of me.
I am making enquiries at the embassies of various democracies to find out whether the selling, without my permission, of my birthright constitutes grounds for applying for asylum. I may be the first British asylum seeker going in the opposite direction.
Liberty Belle, that’s just so much xenophobic crap, & you should know it…
“Everything in France is dated, old fashioned, backward. Hardly anyone has an email address”
err.. that’s partly because they’ve had the equivalent of the internet, in the form of the home-grown minitel system, for a long time already, and it serves many purposes the internet does, hence relatively low adoption of the newer technology. Backwards? try “before their time”.
What’s more, these minitels were, at least initially, given away free as an alternative to a paper phone book, so their uptake’s probably far greater than say, internet-enabled pc’s in the UK.
& if *everything*’s so backwards, how come their trains always seem like miracles of technology (and reliability) compared to our thrusting entrepreneurial trains?
…but fair enough. The comments on Europe on this site have become more & more divorced from reality in recent months. I’m relieved that, although the Sun echoes some of your points from time to time, the majority of the UK population, whilst rightly suspicious of some aspects of EU membership, are not on your wavelength.
A_t
But surely this minitel system means that they are largely out of the global internet loop (or at least not integrated into it in the way that the UK is). So, really, isn’t that a form of backwardness?
But, back to important stuff. Yes, you are right, the majority of Brits are not on our wavelength…YET!